Author Topic: MechWarrior: Destiny  (Read 128284 times)

Ursus Maior

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #330 on: 18 September 2019, 14:35:25 »
@Cubby and nckestrel
I get that, but why add a system that looks a lot like a simplified BT record sheet to such a rules light system. Why not go full Alpha Strike? I'm not a fan of AS, but this way one could have saved a third game system; a fifth, if we count Quick Strike and Intro Box record sheets.
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nckestrel

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #331 on: 18 September 2019, 14:48:21 »
@Cubby and nckestrel
I get that, but why add a system that looks a lot like a simplified BT record sheet to such a rules light system. Why not go full Alpha Strike? I'm not a fan of AS, but this way one could have saved a third game system; a fifth, if we count Quick Strike and Intro Box record sheets.

Note this is my opinion, I had nothing to do with MW: Destiny.
1. Alpha Strike is also too long.  Both (AS and BT) are tabletop combat games where the whole session is meant to be combat.  They aren't intended to be part of something larger.  You want to tack on 10% role-play to them, sure.  If you want an actual role-playing game, you don't have time to do AS (or BT) as part of a session. They demand all/the majority of it.
2. Alpha Strike in particular is fast and deadly. No one unit can survive any kind of attention.  It doesn't take well to individual heroes.  They will die.

But if that's not what you want, then don't use it.  They are fully aware that many players want an add-on to the tabletop, they've dedicated a whole chapter to tabletop integration.  You don't need to be convinced, nobody is trying to convince you.  Play how you want to play.

Just don't act like you're the only way to play.  I've ignored AToW it's entire existence.  Has nothing to do with it being good or bad, it's not something I've been interested in.  That's on me and I'm good with my choice.  You don't want another combat system, don't use it.  Don't feel like any of us are trying to tell you that you have to.  I'm specifically saying you have my express permission to ignore anything you are not interested in. 
Alpha Strike Introduction resources
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets

NutritiousSlop

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #332 on: 18 September 2019, 15:14:26 »
Those pages have a lot of great content, and I like the fact that you get so much space for Cues. I've messed around with FATE and FATE ACCELERATED EDITION, and felt like they ended up producing more one-dimensional characters, where this is going to make you work to flesh out a character as a whole person. 

Hopefully the 'Mech combat section will be compatible with vehicles, infantry, battle armor, and aerospace (Small Craft and below) units.  I'm imaging PCs facing off against a bad guy in a Vulcan or Firestarter while on foot as basically an apocalypse-level boss.  Ripping some elements from the movie Fury except with a Demolisher crewed by the PCs might be fun as well. 

With my group, I'll probably run everything but the last climactic battle on the MWD combat framework, and use it as an opportunity to show them how much fun and deep TW can be. 

Colt Ward

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #333 on: 18 September 2019, 16:02:21 »
. . .
2. Alpha Strike in particular is fast and deadly. No one unit can survive any kind of attention.  It doesn't take well to individual heroes.  They will die.
 . . .

Yeah, AS IMO might be the worst resolution since its designed for larger units and how would it really introduce such RP generating events like . . . "OMG, I can only find the Wrong medium laser to replace the one that got trashed in my last fight.  Maybe that black market arms dealer my Galatea contact told me about for this contract can get one . . . then again, my contact was a bit miffed I stiffed him on the headhunter's fee so maybe I shouldn't go meet that arms dealer in a dark alley outside a notorious biker gang dive . . . "
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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #334 on: 18 September 2019, 17:38:44 »
I'm using the RPG has an excuse to get people to play battletech so this won't be taking the place of my current campaign.  ;)

My interest is peaked though.  Is it like Anarchy where there's no initiative and all gear is covered through XP instead of cash?  Those were a couple of my bigger issues with it.
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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #335 on: 18 September 2019, 18:08:41 »
*snip*
I've ignored AToW it's entire existence.
*snip*
This makes me sad.  I've ignored Alpha Strike its entire existence, and this means we'll probably never see eye to eye.  The way you conduct yourself around here otherwise places you high on my list of someone I'd like to game with.

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #336 on: 18 September 2019, 19:13:54 »
I'm using the RPG has an excuse to get people to play battletech so this won't be taking the place of my current campaign.  ;)

My interest is peaked though.  Is it like Anarchy where there's no initiative and all gear is covered through XP instead of cash?  Those were a couple of my bigger issues with it.

From just the few page preview that we have been giving on the KS page, I can say that the Character creation and rules seem to show some major differences (More then 6 skills, 2D6 mechanics to match BT, no apparent equivalent to shadow amps).
So it is hard to take a guess as to the answer to this question at this time

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #337 on: 18 September 2019, 19:19:05 »
Note this is my opinion, I had nothing to do with MW: Destiny.
1. Alpha Strike is also too long.  Both (AS and BT) are tabletop combat games where the whole session is meant to be combat.  They aren't intended to be part of something larger.  You want to tack on 10% role-play to them, sure.  If you want an actual role-playing game, you don't have time to do AS (or BT) as part of a session. They demand all/the majority of it.
2. Alpha Strike in particular is fast and deadly. No one unit can survive any kind of attention.  It doesn't take well to individual heroes.  They will die.

But if that's not what you want, then don't use it.  They are fully aware that many players want an add-on to the tabletop, they've dedicated a whole chapter to tabletop integration.  You don't need to be convinced, nobody is trying to convince you.  Play how you want to play.

Just don't act like you're the only way to play.  I've ignored AToW it's entire existence.  Has nothing to do with it being good or bad, it's not something I've been interested in.  That's on me and I'm good with my choice.  You don't want another combat system, don't use it.  Don't feel like any of us are trying to tell you that you have to.  I'm specifically saying you have my express permission to ignore anything you are not interested in.

I have to say it is refreshing to see a writer (even freelance) from any company able to separate the job from their opinion, and not just walk the party line.
 :thumbsup:

nckestrel

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #338 on: 18 September 2019, 19:57:57 »
This makes me sad.  I've ignored Alpha Strike its entire existence, and this means we'll probably never see eye to eye.  The way you conduct yourself around here otherwise places you high on my list of someone I'd like to game with.

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Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #339 on: 18 September 2019, 19:59:19 »
Sold, good sir!  I'm in the DC area... Paul, TinyOzora, or Jester006 know where to find me!  :thumbsup:

nckestrel

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #340 on: 18 September 2019, 20:07:32 »
I have to say it is refreshing to see a writer (even freelance) from any company able to separate the job from their opinion, and not just walk the party line.
 :thumbsup:

Probably because I’ve been so often on the Alpha a strike side, where we try to convince the doomsayers registry that we’re not out to destroy (classic) BattleTech.
It’s fine you don’t want to play Alpha Strike. We’re not trying to replace classic BattleTech. And even though AS couldn’t be where it is without existing BattleTech players, the target is even more so (or we’d like it to be) outside the current BT player base. 

I do think MW:Destiny could be a great asset for tabletop BattleTech to add role-playing in (with the tabletop integration).  But I think it’s also aiming at a player base that might not be interested in tabletop integration, and it needs a complimentary lite mech combat system to go with that.  Or even those that might want to mix it up (some combat lite and some full tabletop). 
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Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #341 on: 18 September 2019, 20:47:40 »
Probably because I’ve been so often on the Alpha a strike side, where we try to convince the doomsayers registry that we’re not out to destroy (classic) BattleTech.
It’s fine you don’t want to play Alpha Strike. We’re not trying to replace classic BattleTech. And even though AS couldn’t be where it is without existing BattleTech players, the target is even more so (or we’d like it to be) outside the current BT player base. 

I do think MW:Destiny could be a great asset for tabletop BattleTech to add role-playing in (with the tabletop integration).  But I think it’s also aiming at a player base that might not be interested in tabletop integration, and it needs a complimentary lite mech combat system to go with that.  Or even those that might want to mix it up (some combat lite and some full tabletop).

I'm still not all that convinced that MW:Destiny will be the gateway that CGL thinks.
While it will most likely bring in new players to BTU RPGs, I don't think they will get the crossover between game they seem to be expecting.
I see it more as akin to the Alpha Strike and Total War subsets in the community, so we will wind-up with a AToW and MW:Destiny subsets.
An while I would say that's OK normally, when it comes to resent BTU RPGs the track record for support is not the best and adding a second separately supported game could put a strain on an already strained secondary line.
« Last Edit: 18 September 2019, 20:49:17 by victor_shaw »

hf22

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #342 on: 18 September 2019, 21:18:03 »
@Cubby and nckestrel
I get that, but why add a system that looks a lot like a simplified BT record sheet to such a rules light system. Why not go full Alpha Strike? I'm not a fan of AS, but this way one could have saved a third game system; a fifth, if we count Quick Strike and Intro Box record sheets.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but Destiny won't be the first time Battletech has had an extra lite RPG 'Mech combat system.

The MechWarrior's Guide to Solaris VII for the 3rd Edition RPG had a set of rules for the same purpose.

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #343 on: 18 September 2019, 21:38:40 »
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but Destiny won't be the first time Battletech has had an extra lite RPG 'Mech combat system.

The MechWarrior's Guide to Solaris VII for the 3rd Edition RPG had a set of rules for the same purpose.

Have the book and would not truly call it a lite Mech combat system.
It was more like, add up a set of numbers and roll off to see who wins.

The other system in the book was a hybrid and utterly unplayable mix of MW 3rd ed and battletech.

Another system that people seem to forget was the mech dueling system from the FASA Solaris VII boxset.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #344 on: 18 September 2019, 21:52:03 »
Another system that people seem to forget was the mech dueling system from the FASA Solaris VII boxset.

From what I have read, for good reason.
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hf22

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #345 on: 18 September 2019, 21:59:48 »
Have the book and would not truly call it a lite Mech combat system.
It was more like, add up a set of numbers and roll off to see who wins.

The other system in the book was a hybrid and utterly unplayable mix of MW 3rd ed and battletech.

Another system that people seem to forget was the mech dueling system from the FASA Solaris VII boxset.

Yeah, it doesn't look like it was ever that successful or popular.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #346 on: 18 September 2019, 22:07:14 »
I wonder how many games of it were actually played. It was one of the last FASA books and is really rare now (compared with the mid 90s stuff that’s often out there)

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hf22

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #347 on: 18 September 2019, 22:31:12 »
I wonder how many games of it were actually played. It was one of the last FASA books and is really rare now (compared with the mid 90s stuff that’s often out there)

I'm guessing not many, given it hasn't been brought up by people much in the context of Destiny. While the book isn't the most impossible thing to get, it is certainly fairly obscure, perhaps partly because the 3rd Edition itself doesn't seem to have that many fans to begin with.


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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #348 on: 19 September 2019, 01:33:39 »
Note this is my opinion, I had nothing to do with MW: Destiny.
1. Alpha Strike is also too long.

[...]

2. Alpha Strike in particular is fast and deadly. No one unit can survive any kind of attention.  It doesn't take well to individual heroes.  They will die.
Thanks for your input. That is good to know. My experience with AS is limited to some reading. :)
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Ursus Maior

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #349 on: 19 September 2019, 01:45:46 »
The MechWarrior's Guide to Solaris VII for the 3rd Edition RPG had a set of rules for the same purpose.
Thanks, I read about that, too. I must confess, I skipped everything between MW2 and MW:D, precisely because I found it to be too clunky. I'm eagerly awaiting MW:D, explicitly because of the possibilities created by both: an integration of full BT and a light rule set. I'm just fearful that every new combat system will be too detailed and too clunky or crunchy for a narrative approach. Of course any 'Mech centered combat needs some crunch, unless one resolves it purely by fancy dice like the Star Wars RPGs (and even that has some crunch).
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NutritiousSlop

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #350 on: 19 September 2019, 08:12:42 »
I think at the end of the day, CGL has to do something or risk giving up market share.  Tabletop and pen-and-paper RPG games have seen a huge explosion in the past few years (possibly because we millienials are cheap/don't have money).  There's two bars in my city that routinely have DnD nights, one of which has been around for five years in a part of town where competition in the bar/restaurant industry is brutal.  It's basically always packed on those nights as well. 

MW3 was a clunky mess.  I loved the randomness of the dice-roll life paths, as you had to quickly pivot your character from being a high-society academy MechWarrior to a cavalry trooper who's had a serious run of bad luck.  AToW is a bit better, and cleans up combat, but is still a lot to ask of new players who will, as I've seen, feel somewhat overwhelmed with the depth and breadth of the universe and timeline, getting lost on that instead of focusing on playing.  TW, AS, et al, are still niche games to some extent- you're not roleplaying in them, and they take up some serious time and resources.  A rules-lite system where people can get to know the universe in an afternoon is a perfect bridge into the tabletop.  Doing otherwise is CGL leaving money on the table. 

Cubby

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #351 on: 19 September 2019, 08:24:36 »
@Cubby and nckestrel
I get that, but why add a system that looks a lot like a simplified BT record sheet to such a rules light system. Why not go full Alpha Strike?

A couple reasons.

First, you've gotta stop viewing this as a wargamer-first. You can't assume that an RPG group is willing to jump over to a miniatures wargame to resolve Mech-Scale situations. AS is an entirely different experience from an RPG, and not everyone wants to play all the things. The Mech-Scale Combat rules allow RPG groups to play out Mech-Scale situations fully within the MW:D rules. AS could not just be copied and pasted in to an RPG rules set.

Second, telling an RPG group that encounters a Mech-Scale situation to "go play a game of AS now" is also telling them "go acquire all the AS rules, terrain, a game table, miniatures, oh and fully learn the AS system too." WAY too much of an investment to ask, both financial and intellectual. MW:D is supposed to be rules-lite. Bolting on an entire, complete set of miniature wargame rules  would utterly destroy that.

Third, the Mech-Scale Combat rules are one chapter within the overall MW:D rules. That's starting to get lost here. The MSC rules are not some separate system that was inserted into the MW:D book. They are part of the MW:D system. They have to be, because they need to integrate with the Personal Combat-level rules, to cover what happens when someone's Mech fires on an unarmored NPC on foot. (There are rules to cover that, and it ain't pretty.)

FWIW, very early in development Phil did look at whether the Alpha Strike system could be ported into MW:D in some fashion and it just couldn't. It's not like we didn't think of it, it just didn't fit.

Hopefully the 'Mech combat section will be compatible with vehicles, infantry, battle armor, and aerospace (Small Craft and below) units.

All of the above.

Is it like Anarchy where there's no initiative and all gear is covered through XP instead of cash?

Yes to both.
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Dahmin_Toran

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #352 on: 19 September 2019, 08:45:59 »
Wow that Mechwarrior Destiny preview looks very promising!

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #353 on: 19 September 2019, 08:50:42 »
I think at the end of the day, CGL has to do something or risk giving up market share.  Tabletop and pen-and-paper RPG games have seen a huge explosion in the past few years (possibly because we millienials are cheap/don't have money).  There's two bars in my city that routinely have DnD nights, one of which has been around for five years in a part of town where competition in the bar/restaurant industry is brutal.  It's basically always packed on those nights as well. 

MW3 was a clunky mess.  I loved the randomness of the dice-roll life paths, as you had to quickly pivot your character from being a high-society academy MechWarrior to a cavalry trooper who's had a serious run of bad luck.  AToW is a bit better, and cleans up combat, but is still a lot to ask of new players who will, as I've seen, feel somewhat overwhelmed with the depth and breadth of the universe and timeline, getting lost on that instead of focusing on playing.  TW, AS, et al, are still niche games to some extent- you're not roleplaying in them, and they take up some serious time and resources.  A rules-lite system where people can get to know the universe in an afternoon is a perfect bridge into the tabletop.  Doing otherwise is CGL leaving money on the table. 

Yeah, and this is the thing - the ideas that are putting people here off of Destiny?  They're really common in modern RPGs.  Savage Worlds is the hotness in the Irish con scene, and the last time I played a game of it we got plot tokens for good roleplaying that we could later use to pull off incredible feats, save our asses, and so on.  It's not much different than spending XP to say, "wait, I have this thing that can save the day!".  Destiny, esepcially in the GM-free mode is going to be about mutual enjoyable storytelling, not simulating the exploits of a Mercenary unit or a DEST squad.
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victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #354 on: 19 September 2019, 09:06:26 »
A couple reasons.

First, you've gotta stop viewing this as a wargamer-first. You can't assume that an RPG group is willing to jump over to a miniatures wargame to resolve Mech-Scale situations. AS is an entirely different experience from an RPG, and not everyone wants to play all the things. The Mech-Scale Combat rules allow RPG groups to play out Mech-Scale situations fully within the MW:D rules. AS could not just be copied and pasted in to an RPG rules set.

While I totally agree with you here, you also have to remember that the Battletech game community at it's core are wargamers. And while it would be nice to bring in new blood to the universe, The majority of players these new players are going to meet are going to be wargamers and crunch RPG players. While I have nothing against narrative/lite rules players (just playing with the rules myself), I don't see them changing their playstyle to crossover into the greater Battletech community. So in the end further dividing CGL's resources to support another subset of the community. And while I say bring them in, I just don't want to see Any of these subset within the community get the shaft because of lack of resources to go around.

Second, telling an RPG group that encounters a Mech-Scale situation to "go play a game of AS now" is also telling them "go acquire all the AS rules, terrain, a game table, miniatures, oh and fully learn the AS system too." WAY too much of an investment to ask, both financial and intellectual. MW:D is supposed to be rules-lite. Bolting on an entire, complete set of miniature wargame rules  would utterly destroy that.

Some of the same issues above, if you are not expecting the players of this game to support the larger Battletech product line then it has to be asked why divert resources to it with the expatiation that  you will get a few new players for this product only?

Third, the Mech-Scale Combat rules are one chapter within the overall MW:D rules. That's starting to get lost here. The MSC rules are not some separate system that was inserted into the MW:D book. They are part of the MW:D system. They have to be, because they need to integrate with the Personal Combat-level rules, to cover what happens when someone's Mech fires on an unarmored NPC on foot. (There are rules to cover that, and it ain't pretty.)

Not going to argue here, as I totally agree that most of the RPGs needed some system to stop bogging down the RPG sessions.

FWIW, very early in development Phil did look at whether the Alpha Strike system could be ported into MW:D in some fashion and it just couldn't. It's not like we didn't think of it, it just didn't fit.

Not to surprising. Tactical board games take a lot of attention to detail to pull off. 

All of the above.

Great to here.

Yes to both.

On this one I have to ask
(no initiative)
1. Will there be an optional rule to add it?

(all gear is covered through XP instead of cash)
1. Is this just in character creation or throughout the game?
2. Will gear have C-Bill cost if you want to ignore this?
3. Will armor have stat or is it just going to be a spend 3XP or what ever, get +1 armor system.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #355 on: 19 September 2019, 09:21:22 »
Some of the same issues above, if you are not expecting the players of this game to support the larger Battletech product line then it has to be asked why divert resources to it with the expatiation that  you will get a few new players for this product only?

Because most of what CGL sells for BT is universe building materials- DTF spine sourcebooks (ER3052, Shattered Fortress), PDF unit summaries (Spotlight On), PDF world building (TtS), event sourcebooks (Turning Points), fiction-novels/anthologies, and now swag through the CGL store like the T-shirts.  They do not care if I buy Touring the Stars Butte Hold for a TW, AS or AToW game . . . as long as I am buying that PDF.
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victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #356 on: 19 September 2019, 09:49:49 »
Because most of what CGL sells for BT is universe building materials- DTF spine sourcebooks (ER3052, Shattered Fortress), PDF unit summaries (Spotlight On), PDF world building (TtS), event sourcebooks (Turning Points), fiction-novels/anthologies, and now swag through the CGL store like the T-shirts.  They do not care if I buy Touring the Stars Butte Hold for a TW, AS or AToW game . . . as long as I am buying that PDF.

And most of the products you listed are heavily (rule section in sorucebooks) or entirety (Turning points, campaign books) tied to the TW system with some support for other systems included (1 or 2 pages) Adding another system reduces the overall page count available in the books and can lead to things having to be left out (Stories, Stats, Info for other games, Etc.).

The point I was making was, that if they are going into this with the attempt to bring in more players to the community and think it will work I'm fine with that.
But if they are just trying to get a few more customers for as long as they can keep them then I'm not, and the resources should be spent on other projects that need them (IllClan)
This is what I mean by stretching resources.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #357 on: 19 September 2019, 09:55:55 »
Most of those books are lore, and anything put out for AToW inclusion in them would probably work for Destiny.  Since it would be supported like AToW, IMO, then I am not sure its really that much of a division of the production.
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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #358 on: 19 September 2019, 10:06:06 »
Most of those books are lore, and anything put out for AToW inclusion in them would probably work for Destiny.  Since it would be supported like AToW, IMO, then I am not sure its really that much of a division of the production.

You have not played Shadowrun 5th vs. Shadowrun Anarchy then.
And actuality most of the turning point and unit books (at lest currently) are mostly TW and chaos scenarios with a little lore, not enough to make them worth wiled to a non wargamer.
And in most of the sourcebooks the lore revolves around overarching stories/battles/armies/and force dispositions, not all that useful to RPGers most of the time who tend to avoid the Mega-plot.
« Last Edit: 19 September 2019, 10:07:46 by victor_shaw »

ActionButler

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #359 on: 19 September 2019, 10:12:58 »
You have not played Shadowrun 5th vs. Shadowrun Anarchy then.
And actuality most of the turning point and unit books (at lest currently) are mostly TW and chaos scenarios with a little lore, not enough to make them worth wiled to a non wargamer.
And in most of the sourcebooks the lore revolves around overarching stories/battles/armies/and force dispositions, not all that useful to RPGers most of the time who tend to avoid the Mega-plot.

Not to jump into the middle of a conversation, but I don't know if I understand how you're defining "lore" in this case.

I would argue that, especially with the TTS books where we get a deep dive of obscure planets, most Battletech sourcebooks are nothing but lore.  Heck, even the old field manuals were mostly just fluff for everyone's order of battle.  Sure, the dedicated rules sections were generally not MW/AToW-friendly, but you can certainly use the rest of the material to add color and detail to an RPG campaign. 
Experimental Technical Readout: The School
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=56420.0