Author Topic: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.  (Read 3887 times)

Apocal

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Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« on: 27 November 2018, 19:18:38 »
So, I've been trying to wrap my head around how to use protomechs effectively by way of MM. I did the same with BA, which went fairly well but now I've hit a snag.

I don't really understand how protomechs are supposed to fit together in a force already built around a handful of OmniMechs supported by BA in adequate numbers (two or three points). What roles should they be taking up that aren't already covered? Is it just a bad idea to spread the BV around so many different unit types instead of focusing on the two already fielded? It seems like protomechs somewhat step on the BA's bailiwick of close-assault, but since you can't fire on a swarmed mech without blowing up your own BA, that leaves no real opening for separate, yet cooperative roles...

Anyone have any ideas or thoughts on this?

truetanker

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #1 on: 27 November 2018, 20:00:49 »
I deal in TO&E's a lot of times...

Simple answer is to replace each Mech Point with a similar Proto -type.

Example:

CHH Nova Star.

Nova S
Summoner B
Hellbringer Prime
Mad Dog C
Shadow Cat A

Each Point contains a Elemental Point of five BA Troopers, ( 5 ).

Now lets swap...

Nova S
Summoner B ->Proto Point: 3x Centaur, 2x Roc
Hellbringer Prime
Mad Dog C ->Proto Point: 3x Gorgon, 2x Hydra
Shadow Cat A

Each Point contains a Elemental Point of five BA Troopers, ( 3 but you now have 10 extra units ).

Now lets swap them, again...

Nova S
Summoner B ->Proto Point: 3x Centaur, 2x Roc
Hellbringer Prime ->Tank Point: 2x Hephaetus D
Mad Dog C ->Proto Point: 3x Gorgon, 2x Hydra
Shadow Cat A

Each Point contains a Elemental Point of five BA Troopers, (10 extra units, but now back to 5 Points of BA with a massive BA carrying capacity to drop off ).

TT
« Last Edit: 27 November 2018, 20:02:27 by truetanker »
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Colt Ward

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #2 on: 28 November 2018, 11:36:20 »
So one thing to understand is that Protos are not really generalist like Elemental BA.  SOME can do it a bit . . . a point of Roc 3 are enough to give people fits.  The original Roc are not far behind them being 5/8/5- which is basically spreading a Nova Prime across the map with its 'safe' firing pattern.

But most Protos are specialist/support designs . . . want something to keep up with your 3/5 & 4/6 heavy attack formation?  Minotaurs with their 3/5 speed and a pair of ERMLs  are enough to keep backstabbers cautious, and can do it with sustained firepower that could not be matched by BA until we got suits carrying MPL or erMPL.  Those suits however are slower, squishier, and cannot spread out from a single hex like Protos can- they also do not have quite the same range or damage.  Mix a few of the slower SRM carrying Protos that also have infernoes and you can do a lot to keep your heavy attack mechs clear- let them focus the Omnis on long range fire like ERPPCs, Gauss Rifles, ERLL, HAG, ATM and LRMs.  Its honestly ideal set up in a command star format . . . Supernova, Blood Kite, Thug 11Eb, Warhammer IIC 4, Minotaur/Minotaur/Gorgon 3/Chrysaor/Chrysoar 2 is a pretty hard hitting Blood Spirit star for defending York.  The four mechs have the long range firepower to pound at targets while the Protos clean up and keep anything from getting too close.

But flip the coin, and you also have speedsters that are great for scouting duty though that is hard to quantify on the Table Top.  I LOVE the Satyr- 7/11 w/Light AP has been extremely useful in several games that were not just slug fests but had objectives.  I used a full point of them way back in the Martial Olympiad for a sweeping victory in that scenario.  I have used mixed Roc & Satyr points in table top games the last few years- find the hidden HQ entrance or scan buildings to see if they have the objective (ammo/weapons storage).  Two Satyr to use the LAPs while three Roc or Roc 3 to keep speedsters away from my seekers.

I have also used some of the faster ones armed with the various lasers as backstabbers . . . heck, I even had a conga line of Protos lined up on some Clan heavy's back . . . opened the back up then started hitting the limbs- sucked, lol.

Protos also have the advantage of being able to hide behind L1 terrain like vehicles and BA which makes it easy to move them up for flanking in broken terrain.  They also pass through buildings as easily as infantry . . . which can make them murder machines in urban terrain.  Letting 2 or 3 ERML and 10 SRMs get behind you is a great way to make it a bad day.
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GreekFire

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #3 on: 28 November 2018, 12:39:35 »
snip

Very good reply here, there's not much I can add without being repetitious.

If your standard combat roles are filled by the 'Mechs and BA (such as hole-punching and crit-seeking), then yeah, you'll want to use the ProtoMechs to specialize. They're perfect as cheap, expendable scouts (as Colt said, the Satyr is fantastic), but if your opponent has a tendency to field vehicles, you can also mix in something like some Siren 3's to aim to get some quick crits in and take the vehicles out of the fight early.

Other than that, aim for force-multiplying ProtoMechs. For example, you could take the Centaur and abuse the fact that you can mix ammo freely on ProtoMechs. Bring smoke, inferno, and thunder rounds, and only use those missile-bearing ProtoMechs as support units - quickly creating and denying advantageous terrain as the battle flows.

Finally, in more built up terrain you can use a Point of quicker ProtoMechs to rapidly deny movement to your opponent. Do they have a Dasher that's coming in for a backstab? If you can, try to rapidly surround it to prevent it from getting a high TMM, then focus it down to remove it as a threat. Use the same tactics to prevent the opponent from disengaging if you drop Battle Armor right on top of them. Abuse the fact that you can field many units for a low amount of BV.

Hopefully that helps a bit, but the best thing you can do is experiment and have fun.
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Col Toda

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #4 on: 29 November 2018, 05:37:51 »
You are missing the point of proto mechs . They are the true attrition unit for the Clans . Their niche is speed above all to either act as vangaurd or forelorn hope . They are an offensive unit only to use them in the defensive is pulling them out of their niche . You send them in advance of a star of omni mechs carring elementals . They quickly move to civilian infrastructure and secure the perimeter until the slower units show up . The idea is to move so fast to prevent slow moving enemy infantry or battle armor in place to deny the area for you . They are also used to go in the advance of the regular formation in an urban combat to expose hidden units use light TAG and Naga Arrow IV support . Their job is to die exposing the enemy so non attrition units do not get surprised . Remember Protomech pilots are disposable washouts that failed trials of postion . Treating them like non disposable breaks their function . Only recently have I seen any slow protomechs with AC8s used for perimeter security which they are not great at.  Some players refuse to use them as intended and they always fail to get the desired results.  Protomechs secondary purpose is to prevent non attrition units getting drowned in cheap combat vehicles.  The Clans tend to have horrible logistics during the initial Clan Invasion ERA they used Shock and Awe blitzkrieg combat if they got slowed or bogged down they lost . If they overan and demoralized the enemy they won .

GreekFire

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #5 on: 29 November 2018, 09:16:49 »
They are an offensive unit only to use them in the defensive is pulling them out of their niche.

Firmly disagree. There are ProtoMechs wholly designed to be used defensively more than offensively. Take the Minotaur 2 - scatter them around any position that you're trying to hold and use them to deny quick-moving scouts, skirmishers, or troop transports. The amount of firepower needed to take down a Point of them at range is usually really not worth the hassle, especially if you have other more intimidating units to draw your opponent's attention. But trying to use the Minotaur 2 offensively? Good luck, you aren't going to accomplish squat.

Same applies to certain other units, eg: the Orc 3 or Procyon 4- ambush, then fall back to resupply, repeat. Easier to accomplish when on the defensive then the offensive. Many other Protos can also function as well on the defensive as on the offensive, depending on the terrain. Just use them as mobile ambushers that dictate when a specific engagement begins. Burst out from cover and surround any vulnerable units while ideally bringing in at least one heavier unit for added hole-punching, then disengage before your opponent can react. Once again, easier to accomplish when you have a position to fall back to. So yeah...disagree.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #6 on: 29 November 2018, 10:15:48 »
Yeah, honestly they are a replacement for vehicles that fits with the Clan culture of single warrior combat.  So you would use Protos often times like you would light and medium tanks as a IS commander.  I think TPTB missed a opportunity to keep the Clans distinctive from the IS by keeping them downplaying vehicles but increasing the niche use of Protos.
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truetanker

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #7 on: 29 November 2018, 14:22:18 »
Hmm...  BA Mag Clamps  and Ultra Heavy Protos....

Thoughts?

TT
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Colt Ward

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #8 on: 29 November 2018, 14:57:04 »
As I discovered, its about slowing down . . .

For instance, the Minotaur XP with the clamp can ride by itself on a 90t or heavier without it losing any speed.  I teamed one up with a Scylla- that Minotaur went 4/6/4 until it was dropped of the mech!
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mbear

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #9 on: 30 November 2018, 06:55:26 »
Hmm...  BA Mag Clamps  and Ultra Heavy Protos....

Thoughts?

TT

So the BA attaches to the Ultra Heavy Proto? Sounds fun.

But what would be even cooler is having the BA-carrying Ultra Heavy Proto equipped with mag clamps and attached to an OmniMech. It's a Matryoshka Doll of Death!
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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #10 on: 30 November 2018, 15:14:55 »
ONLY way I can see THAT happening is if it was a Colossal SH doing the lifting...

Even THAT would be painful to watch as it literally crawls slower than a motive critted Behemoth tank!

TT
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Gus

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #11 on: 02 December 2018, 07:03:44 »
Hmm...  BA Mag Clamps  and Ultra Heavy Protos....

Thoughts?

TT

Well, if BA can ride ultralight mechs, why not ultra heavy protos?  >:D

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #12 on: 02 December 2018, 16:17:49 »
And now you know why I'm considered an evil genius in this game, outside of the box thinking...

Rules wise... is it legal enough to warrant an errata stating able to be carried by protomechs?

I'm not that verse enough... Welshman, Roosterboy, Knightmare, Xtol or even maybe Scotty might be, but I'm not. Ray and Brent could make an announcement about this, but then again their more likely to outlaw it on the grounds of transportability, like it violates stacking. I can see 1:1 and a -1 MP for the Proto, no torso weapon fire like the Omni rule, jumping and glider rules or even WiGE might need to be changed...

But who knows...

TT
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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #13 on: 02 December 2018, 17:36:01 »
Rules wise... is it legal enough to warrant an errata stating able to be carried by protomechs?

No. Protos carrying BA is very much NOT allowed.
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truetanker

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #14 on: 02 December 2018, 17:43:36 »
So what your saying is they missed out by not being 15+ tons? Which would make the minimum tonnage for a TW-era mech is 15 tons...

Interesting...

TT
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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #15 on: 02 December 2018, 23:40:16 »
No, what my saying is they missed out by not being BattleMechs.
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truetanker

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #16 on: 03 December 2018, 14:45:25 »
Well...

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62244.msg1462077#msg1462077

According to this, Ultra Heavy ProtoMechs can only be transported by either cargo rules and then start up as normal, or be combat ready via Mech Cubicles.

So I think we need a higher authority than present... no hard feelings Weirdo.

We can currently build 15 ton mechs... meaning in my last post, we missed out @ 14 tons highest Proto...

TT
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Col Toda

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #17 on: 04 December 2018, 06:40:41 »
I have come across not having the required unit where you want it alot . Did a post for Non Combat Support vehicles called " Has anyone tried " . Made a case for an ultralight single battle armor transport to get battle armor to an area to deny the enemy faster than a protomech advance point or star . Check it out on page 2 . If you can move battle armor at flank 18-21 you effectively have more at the point of contact . At least on the defensive reacting using remote sensor perimeter networks if you are fast enough you can get ahead of the enemy .
« Last Edit: 04 December 2018, 06:43:32 by Col Toda »

GoldBishop

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #18 on: 04 December 2018, 11:07:58 »
For me?  The difference isn't due to tonnage but to volume.  Size matters, not weight.

I can't find a description for ultra-heavy protos that state that they're increased weight is due only to bulk (WoR or IO); it seems most of weight comes from heavier components to support the heavier chassis without enlarging the frame too terribly much.   Mentally, I do believe they should be bigger, but for all intents and purposes, I consider them all roughly the same size as normal predecessors.  (as an example?  no change in the rules for hex stacking; still counts as a vehicle and hides behind 1 elevation terrain).

This means, for practical considerations, ultraheavy protos have the same reason regular protomechs cannot carry mechanized infantry units: there simply isn't enough surface area to carry a full squad.  [I have some experience spreading full squads of BA across several transports, so while I know it is technically possible, its generally frowned upon for its... meticulousness.  For game expediency, its the whole squad or nothing.]

...And I'm drawing a blank on ultra-light battlemechs.  Do they carry mechanize BA like Light Battlemechs?  I have a few of those dedicated battle taxis to haul my BA on the various hull mounts (As outlined in TotalWarfare p.227) but I can't seem to find where Ultra-Lights might have the restriction.  Everything I've dug up on them doesn't say either way, but I think the expensive engines (looking at the Preyseeker out of TRO3145_FS) makes me cringe at the concept of using ultra-lights for use as battle taxis... not when hovercraft and VTOLs and other dedicated transports can deploy the same amount for far, far less.

I could be wrong (I don't often look too closely at the C-Bill side of things) but if the UltraLights DO carry a full squad, the differences between the two would be clear enough to me.
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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #19 on: 05 December 2018, 19:32:16 »
Rules wise... is it legal enough to warrant an errata stating able to be carried by protomechs?

Anyone else get a Luke/Yoda vibe from that statement?
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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #20 on: 06 December 2018, 10:30:03 »
Hmm...  BA Mag Clamps  and Ultra Heavy Protos....

Thoughts?

TT

Mag clamps dont work on ASF right?

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #21 on: 08 December 2018, 08:07:03 »
I recall a long time ago someone mentioned that a few protos mixed in with BA would be useful since protos have proper fusion reactors, and could keep all the BA's batteries and weapons powerpacks topped off.

But as for how they synergize in actual combat?


Hmmmm...


So, if I'm remembering the rules right, protos can target ASFs, and BA can't.  So, a few LRM-armed protos hanging around to provide cover against air strikes makes some sense, along with tossing smoke rounds and generally keeping heads down while the BA advance.

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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #22 on: 08 December 2018, 11:34:04 »
Very true. This is where that otherwise ineffectual LB-X Minotaur can be very useful. Ditto the Triton...3, I think? It's got the LRMs, but enough close-in firepower that the BV doesn't feel wasted if you fill the missile bin with force multipliers.
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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #23 on: 17 December 2018, 20:27:46 »
In terms of ad hoc formations, a couple points of Elementals (for crit seeking) backed up by Rocs works well. Depending on the terrain, Minotaurs might work better or perhaps Gorgons, given sufficient cover. It just really depends on the mission objective, really. In general, Protos are somewhat fragile for direct combat, and the lack of hit locations (and fire resistance of Fire Elementals) is a useful damage soak to take heat off the ProtoMechs, assuming you can keep the Elementals out in front

This is at least how I used to play Raven Zeta Galaxy forces because the Chasseur clusters were always kind of loosy goosy in their TOE
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Re: Mixing both Protos and BA in the same force.
« Reply #24 on: 28 December 2018, 03:43:33 »
I can think of at least a few roles protos can play when integrating with BA:

Blocking/Fixing for Anti-Mech Attacks -- BA often have trouble catching enemy mechs for anti-mech attacks. But a single proto can block an enemy mech or vehicle's movement into a hex.  Thus a point of smaller, faster protos can surround a mech or vehicle, fixing it in place for coup de grace anti-mech (swarm or leg) attacks by BA point.  Seemingly worthless small or poorly armed protos can be surprisingly good in this role due to their low BV.

"Heavy" Cavalry -- Heavier, slower BA points defending fixed positions (think Golem points) can become isolated or outranged.  Relatively mobile protos with decent firepower, like the Roc, Gorgon 2, Delphyne, and Procyon Quad can serve as a mobile reserve, covering multiple BA defensive positions and reinforcing them depending on which BA position is getting hit hardest.

Fire Support -- Some protos like the Gorgon, Minotaur 3, and Svartalfa carry large LRM racks.  A point of them can throw as many or more missiles than a heavy or assault mech or tank.  BA can spot for indirect fire from these fire support protos, or the protos can just fire directly from behind the BA.

Special Munitions Support -- Some protos like the Orc, Centaur, Hippogriff, and Sprite carry multiple small SRM or LRM racks.  These can be used as flexible force multipliers, delivering inferno, flechette, minelaying, smoke, and other special munitions as needed to enhance the attacks or defenses of allied BA.

E/W Support -- The Satyr's light probe can sweep out areas more than twice as fast as most BA and identify hidden enemy units that need flushing by allied BA.  Similarly, if Arrow IV artillery is available, the Satyr 4 (my only canon design) can more easily keep its light TAG trained on enemy units than slower BA with the light TAG.

Some Society protos like the Basilisk Quad and Boggart get into more exotic roles like physical, electrical, and incendiary attacks that are worth considering if playing the Society (or for homegrown designs).

Finally, upthread GreekFire should have plugged his series on proto tactics and his proto reviews.  They're required proto reading.  Here's links to his first articles for each:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=43037.msg993154#msg993154
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=20928.0

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: 23 June 2019, 16:58:15 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."