Author Topic: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?  (Read 11403 times)

klarg1

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #30 on: 17 September 2018, 09:16:22 »
Simply put, Ultras suck.  Autocannons have always had issues with sub-par balance, but Ultras by far get the worst of it.

Pretty much this.

For IS, at least, I will just about always pick RAC5 over UAC10.

If you bring the AC/20 into the mix, I still pick the RAC 9 times out of 10, but the AC at least provides some differentiation as a head-capper, and a guaranteed PSR when you hit. In my opinion, the AC/20 and LB20-X have a niche to fill on certain units. (I'd go LBX over Ultra on an AC any day)

massey

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #31 on: 17 September 2018, 13:16:26 »
Personally, I prefer the UAC-10.  It's not an ideal weapon, but I think 10 point locations have a benefit over 5 point locations.  It also has a better range bracket.

Ultimately, the problem with the UAC-10 is it's not a Gauss Rifle.  The Gauss is approximately the same average damage, but for a little more tonnage you get less heat and better range.  The problem with the Rotary AC-5 is that it's like taking a bunch of LRM-5s, only with worse range, a bit less heat, and the chance to jam.  Or it's like taking an MRM-30 (nobody's favorite weapon) only a bit more accurate.

The reason you don't take the Ultra-10 is because it competes against one of the best weapons in the game.  The reason you don't take the RAC-5 is because it competes against some fairly "meh" choices.  It's not bad, it's just okay.

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #32 on: 17 September 2018, 14:02:49 »
To be honest, I've never thought of the Ultra 10 as competing with the Gauss Rifle, they have completely different rolls and weights.

If anything, it competes with the Light Gauss, another gun that's very sub-par.  As exhibit A, I'll present the Legacy and Vanquisher, or, as I like to call them, the Loogie and Varnisher.
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massey

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #33 on: 17 September 2018, 14:10:23 »
Well the UAC-10 is what, 13 tons?  The IS Gauss is 15.  But, you've also got to account for ammunition.  The autocannon gets 10 shots per ton, so you'll want at least 2 tons.  Now you're at 15 tons.  That gives you 10 rounds of double-tap fire, with an average of about 15 points of damage per round (and a chance to jam).  For that, you generate 8 heat.  You also get PPC range.

The Gauss is 15 tons to start, and while you'll want more ammo, a single ton will give you 8 rounds of fire.  So for one extra ton, you get 2 rounds less fire, the same average damage (just a hair higher, actually), better range, and 7 less heat.  You also get 15 point hits instead of potentially 2 10-pointers.

The more ammo you add (say 3 tons for the Ultra and 2 for the Gauss), the more the ammo advantage swings in the Gauss' favor.  Now, it's true that at high to-hit numbers, the Ultra can fire single-fire and conserve ammunition.  But I think they're close enough all around that people will normally take that next step up and choose the Gauss.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #34 on: 17 September 2018, 14:53:14 »
I don't know anyone who things that one ton is sufficient ammo for a GR.  The Ultra 10 can get away with 20 shots because it's not as long range a weapon and you don't have to fire it in double mode every time (like when you're looking at a 9+ to hit, for example).
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massey

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #35 on: 17 September 2018, 15:09:30 »
I don't know anyone who things that one ton is sufficient ammo for a GR.  The Ultra 10 can get away with 20 shots because it's not as long range a weapon and you don't have to fire it in double mode every time (like when you're looking at a 9+ to hit, for example).

Do you know anyone who intentionally picks the UAC-10 over the Gauss?  Because that's what we're really talking about here.

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #36 on: 17 September 2018, 15:30:35 »
Do you know anyone who intentionally picks the UAC-10 over the Gauss?  Because that's what we're really talking about here.

the unit designing cabal doesn't. with mechs and vees, it's over three to one in favor of the gauss (~280 to 80) and half of the units that use the UAC 10 are clan. a whopping nine mechs/vees use the UAC after 3100.

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #37 on: 17 September 2018, 15:33:44 »
Do you know anyone who intentionally picks the UAC-10 over the Gauss?  Because that's what we're really talking about here.
Me!
Enough Gauss platforms to pick from already. UAC/10 is much more interesting.

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #38 on: 18 September 2018, 05:57:24 »
How about this question: Which do you prefer as an infantry field gun? The RAC or the Ultra AC/10?
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Minemech

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #39 on: 18 September 2018, 10:17:13 »
How about this question: Which do you prefer as an infantry field gun? The RAC or the Ultra AC/10?
With one ton of ammo, that is not really much of a question.

Brakiel

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #40 on: 18 September 2018, 12:05:43 »
IS techbase, I'm more of a RAC5 guy over the UAC10, although I'd prefer a LB10X if shopping for a midweight/mid-damage ballistic weapon. The UAC10 just feels too inefficient for what you get. There is something to be said about the worst a UAC10 can do is still a 10 point whack, whereas a RAC5 can whiff for a single 5 point hit. But otherwise, a RAC5 feels a lot more manageable in terms of construction and in combat utility, especially if using a TarComp.

Clan techbase, I flip and am completely behind the UAC10. Same tonnage as the Clan's LB10X and RAC5, and a nice, compact 4 crits. A Clan RAC5 is basically competing with dual Clan LRM20s, or dual LRM15s with Artemis-V. Honestly, I'd rather take the LRMs.

Kidd

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #41 on: 18 September 2018, 12:48:42 »
How about this question: Which do you prefer as an infantry field gun? The RAC or the Ultra AC/10?
RAC.
Infantry don't live long anyway. Dump your ammo in 3 glorious turns and die. But in that time you'll have BRRRRRTTed through with all the power of an unjammable 6x firing rate.

garhkal

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #42 on: 18 September 2018, 13:43:53 »
A friendly debate sprang up at our game tonight over which was better - a Rotary Autocannon 5 or an Ultra Autocannon 10?

The general points were the RAC/5 has a higher potential damage overall, but runs greater risk with jamming and need for more ammo, while the Ultra AC/10 does less total damage but greater damage per shot and has less chance of jamming.

I'm not sure about either set of points, so I'll open the debate up here for friendly discourse: Which is better, and why?

While those are good points, i think for ME, it comes down more to
UAC-10s are a lot more common, AND have better range.

Simply put, Ultras suck.  Autocannons have always had issues with sub-par balance, but Ultras by far get the worst of it.

That's why if i put AC-s on a mech, i generally go for Standards (20 especially) or LBs.. 

With the Ultra10 your weapon is fried, why that is still true so many years later is beyond me

I've never understood that myself.  They were released when??  3050 time frame, right after the core thinggy was found.  And its late 3080s now..   That should have been plenty of time to figure out a fix for the jamming issue.

Sometimes you need that big slug that is worth less damage overall then several smaller weapons/shots that add up to more damage overall.

True that.   

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #43 on: 18 September 2018, 15:33:42 »
Do you know anyone who intentionally picks the UAC-10 over the Gauss?  Because that's what we're really talking about here.

I put one on a Victor (in place of the Ultra 20). I needed the range but still wanted to fight close. The Ultra 10 does that better than the GR.
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garhkal

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #44 on: 19 September 2018, 00:43:08 »
I put one on a Victor (in place of the Ultra 20). I needed the range but still wanted to fight close. The Ultra 10 does that better than the GR.

True, the UAC-10 has no minimums, but the Gauss has much better range brackets.
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Col Toda

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #45 on: 19 September 2018, 04:40:32 »
Neither are great since the precision ammo came out .  Say 2 light AC /5 s and with precision ammo hits far more often in the first place . Put in a Targeting computer that is 13 tons plus ammo . That combo hits 3 times as much with less damage per hit . An AC 10 with precision ammo mass and range lose out but on a fast medium like a Centurian conditionally is better .  Either way both the RAC and Ultra do best on a city map . Most Open terrain with lighr and heavy woods favor precision ammo and normal ACs . Both Ultras and RACs have a Huge Ammo Discipline issue as they have a 10 to 12 round capacity and therefore nearly never fire at long Range . Staying power and bad target resolution against fast medium opforce will mean you will be lucky to hit 1/3 the time while the precision units will average without luck 2/3 hits at the same ranges and get a hit or two at long range.  RAC 5 with 12 ; 5 round shots should average 45 pts of Damage the 2 light AC 5s w precision may do 80 pt plus maybe anoth er 5 at long range Light AC 5 at about 3 tons of ammo for the RAC and 2 1/2 tons for Light AC 5 . Neither I would call a decisive weapon the Ultra AC 10 is . The RAC is good if the target already got hit with PPCs and Gauss rifles and has wholes to exploit . The only Canon RAC units that I Like is the Argus that has a Beagle Active Probe for urban street to street fighting as well as reiforced recon . And the Shiltron E or F with 2 RAC 5s and a C3 Master whos Slaves gives him short Ranges typically 3 Wight light mechs that loses a med laser for a Slave and uses the Heavy PPC to put the aforementioned big holes for the RAC to exploit . That is a typical inner city militia lance in the Draconis Combine .  The Ultra AC 10 is stand alone the RAC works as a team player best not stand alone . So of the choices given the Ultra AC 10 .

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #46 on: 19 September 2018, 09:56:01 »
While those are good points, i think for ME, it comes down more to
UAC-10s are a lot more common, AND have better range.

Huh?  After the RAC is introduced, it rapidly outstrips the UAC/10 in use- someone up thread provided numbers.

I also do not understand why you would want a AC/20 rather than a UAC/20 . . . even if you never double tap, that extra range matters on most things that are not going to be fast enough to get in range.
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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #47 on: 19 September 2018, 10:15:30 »
Tangentially related - RAC2 or UAC5?

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #48 on: 19 September 2018, 10:39:07 »
Neither. Any weapon that jams isn't worth using, IMO. The benefits are outweighed by being charged Battle Value for something that could become completely worthless. Anything which doesn't function = wasted BV. Given that their BV is already incorrect (again, IMO), you're getting triple-dipped for a weapon which quickly becomes useless.

Yes, RACs unjam. Good luck doing so if you're playing against me. You're less than 15 hexes away from me. Guess what I'll be doing when you're using walking movement and wasting your firing phase for a chance to unjam your weapon -- I'll be firing weapons that DON'T jam. :)
UACs and RACs are better replaced with missile racks or LB-X. You don't have to carry the additional ammo to make them function at additional firing rates (i.e.: less stuff to go "boom!") and they'll always hit with the same damage. And LRM-20 is going to have a FAR better damage/ton ratio over the course of a game than an RAC/5.
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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #49 on: 19 September 2018, 11:10:51 »
Tangentially related - RAC2 or UAC5?

The RAC/2 is helpful as a long-ranged crit finder but will suffer in comparison to an LB-5X.
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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #50 on: 19 September 2018, 11:21:32 »
The RAC/2 is helpful as a long-ranged crit finder but will suffer in comparison to an LB-5X.

I use RAC/2s regularly, they make great replacements for AC5s and I typically swap one of the Schreck's PPCs for one to give it actually respectable armor.  It's makes an already fierce tank so much better

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #51 on: 19 September 2018, 11:38:54 »
Why not both?   ;D

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #52 on: 19 September 2018, 14:12:59 »
Huh?  After the RAC is introduced, it rapidly outstrips the UAC/10 in use- someone up thread provided numbers.

I also do not understand why you would want a AC/20 rather than a UAC/20 . . . even if you never double tap, that extra range matters on most things that are not going to be fast enough to get in range.

It's mostly personal preference.  YES the UAC20 has a little more range, but the extra weight and crits imo don't make up for that.
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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #53 on: 19 September 2018, 14:17:38 »
Sure, I understand that which is why I prefer the LB-20X over the UAC20 but that 25% range increase is nothing to sneeze at one some of the slower mechs that could mount it.
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klarg1

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #54 on: 19 September 2018, 14:34:18 »
Sure, I understand that which is why I prefer the LB-20X over the UAC20 but that 25% range increase is nothing to sneeze at one some of the slower mechs that could mount it.

Isn't the IS UAC20 limited to just 10 hexes range? It doesn't really bring the range bonus you get with the LB-20X. If I was going to mount a class 20 autocannon, it would probably be either the LB-X version (primarily for the range bonus), or the standard model, so I could make use of specialty munitions.

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #55 on: 19 September 2018, 14:42:38 »
Isn't the IS UAC20 limited to just 10 hexes range?

Yes, and it also generates an extra point of heat per shot compared to a standard AC 20.
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Colt Ward

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #56 on: 19 September 2018, 15:39:31 »
Isn't the IS UAC20 limited to just 10 hexes range? It doesn't really bring the range bonus you get with the LB-20X. If I was going to mount a class 20 autocannon, it would probably be either the LB-X version (primarily for the range bonus), or the standard model, so I could make use of specialty munitions.

Hmm, maybe I am thinking of the Clan version . . . but honestly, I generally reach for the LBX if I ever pick something in the 20 series.
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Minemech

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #57 on: 19 September 2018, 20:55:22 »
Hmm, maybe I am thinking of the Clan version . . . but honestly, I generally reach for the LBX if I ever pick something in the 20 series.
The King Crab is one of my favorite mechs, and the though of using Ultras on it makes me salivate.

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #58 on: 19 September 2018, 21:29:51 »
It'd be a real heat-hog at that point.
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garhkal

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Re: RAC/5 or Ultra AC/10?
« Reply #59 on: 20 September 2018, 00:02:46 »
The King Crab is one of my favorite mechs, and the though of using Ultras on it makes me salivate.

Well, the basic ac20 can be weilded in the arm, but the Lb20x is so large, it has to also go into the torso.
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