Author Topic: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops  (Read 39395 times)

Kit deSummersville

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'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« on: 29 June 2012, 08:24:26 »
   Cyclops. That word typically takes us back to the one-eyed giant of Greek myth. Thanks to Homer, he is typically seen as a loser, not the formidable force of yore, generating the phrase Cyclopean that filled Lovercraft's pages. For the MechWarrior, it conjures a different image, the ninety-ton machine renowned for its role as a communications masterpiece that debuted in 2710 for the Star League.  In this episode of the Armchair General, we will look at the top ten versions of this magnificent creation.

Number Ten
   Many versions of the Cyclops mount the formidable Zeus-36 Mark III Autocannon, capable of shattering many 'Mechs in one shot. Lacking range, it is a terror in close range combat, and area in which our number ten Cyclops excels.  Joining the autocannon and the typical arm-mounted medium lasers on the CP-11-H are 120 rockets, six sets of twenty, two-third of which reside in the left torso.  Protecting this variant is twelve tons of ferro-fibrous armor. Cooling this beast are twelve freezers, typically too many or too few for what this version needs.
   It is capable of packing a heavy punch, between the cannon and the rockets, but only in one or two salvos. Ten round for the cannon is generally plenty but for a ninety ton machine, this version lacks staying power and most importantly, range. With the rockets reaching out to 360 meters and the other weapons 270, this Cyclops doesn't have the reach to attack an enemy capable of staying away.

Number Nine
   Our number nine finisher is an oddity among Cylopses but could be one of the best machines to fill its original role. Lacking the Zeus Autocannon, the CP-10-Q provides durable, if less than potent, fire support. By dropping the cannon, this version adds a second set of ten LRM tubes with two more tons of ammunition along with two heat sinks to make most heat worries vanish. Perhaps most impressively, this variant piles on the armor, sporting just shy of fifteen tons of thick armor, almost a fifty percent increase over the primary model.
   What does this one lack? Pop, for one. At ninety tons, few heavy 'Mechs will be scared by twenty missiles or the short range firepower that rivals a light 'Mech's, with just twothree lasers and four SRM tubes. The 10-Q may be able to coordinate the battle and keep its pilot safe, but as a threat on the modern battlefield, it lands with a thud.

Number Eight
   A hundred years ago, this Cyclops would have ranked on top of our list but in the modern age, the original CP-10-Z just can't compete. Despite having forty tons on the {i]Hunchback[/i], this Cyclops really only offers ten LRM tubes, having the same movement, armor and nearly the same close-in weapons. It even has one less heat sink than the smaller 'Mech. The biggest asset on the modern battlefield is plenty of ammunition for the Zeus, allowing specialty ammo to add to the 'Mech's potency.
   In its heyday, however, the 10-Z was the best of the available Cyclopses on the battlefield. Well-rounded, the machine had good enough armor and speed to bring its giant cannon to bear. With plenty of ammunition for it, it could take less favorable shots, though the pilot needed to watch the heat levels. The armor was still on the low side, comparable to the maligned Charger, meaning this Cyclops was best in a team role, hopefully as a reserve in a command group that can tip the balance of the battle.

Number Seven
   With the Cyclops production facility being destroyed in 2774 during the drive to liberate Terra, no new Cyclops have been manufactured, so all modern versions are refits. Our number seven entry increases the long and medium range firepower as well as addressing most heat concerns with just a minor loss of close-in punch. How complicated is this modification? Not very, as the CP-11-A merely swaps out the Zeus for a sleek Gauss rifle.
   With four tons of autocannon ammo, this allowed designers to double the LRM ammunition as well as providing an adequate two tons for the Gauss, more than some of the other early refits. While the 11-A can now carry alternate LRM ammo, it still retains the mere 10 tons of armor and just twelve heat sinks. On the modern battlefield, that just isn't enough, especially with the Gauss rifle increasing the level of priority.

Number Six
   With the Cyclops often filling a slot in a command lance, this next version was no great leap of logic. A common refit across the Inner Sphere, our number six pick becomes more deadly and efficient by removing the LRM launcher. Still mounting the Gauss and the same short range weapons, the CP-11-C adds a C3 Master control system. Expanding the role as a team player, this Cyclops becomes even more important, allowing greater efficiency of fire between the units in its network.
   This will make the Cyclops a greater magnet for fire, but unlike the 11-A the 11-C exchanges the LRM ammo for a twenty percent upgrade in armor, shoring up the entire front of the machine. With the removal of launcher, the twelve heat sinks are sufficient, thought the lack of efficiency keeps this command and control 'Mech from moving any higher than sixth on our list.
   Now that we are halfway through our top ten Cyclopses, let's take a look at the versions that didn't quite make our list. Two command consol versions, the 10-Z-DC and the 11-A-DC are used in the Confederation. While beneficial to larger units, they rip out vital ammunition that the Cyclops will need, leaving the 11-A-DC with a mere eight rounds for the Gauss. Another variant from the Star League stripped out the Zeus autocannon to mount a mobile headquarters unit, a job better performed by a dedicated vehicle instead of a ninety ton BattleMech.

Number Five
   The top half of our list become much more effective on the modern battlefield. Taking the 11-C model and improving it, the 11-C3 lands in our number five spot. Able to ignore ECM interference thanks to a boosted C3 Master, this version is the first we see on our countdown to mount freezers besides the 11-H. With the tonnage freed up from the removal of two heat sinks, the SRM launcher was upgraded to a Streak model and the protection is increased even more thanks to the use of heavy ferro-fibrous armor.
   Despite the improvements to the 11-C3, it is still lacking the throw weight of an assault 'Mech. In addition, despite the increased armor the explosive ammunition remains right beneath the fusion engine while the right torso is unprotected with an explosive Gauss rifle. One errant shot could destroy an expensive refit and command unit, resulting in the fifth place finish.

Number Four
   Narrowly beating out the 11-C3 for the fourth spot is a similar electronic marvel. Rather than controlling a lance of machines, the 11-C2 mounts dual C3 Master systems, to run an entire company in conjunction with two other C3 Master systems. To make room, the Gauss system was replaced with an extended range PPC and a pair of standard medium lasers. The long range damage is the least of all the 11-C* models, but the additional lasers give it a greater close-in punch.
   The greatest increase to the firepower is an entire company able to focus fire easily. The armor isn't any different from the 11-C3, but the lack of an explosive accelerator actually increases the survivability of the Cyclops. Sadly, no one thought to move the SRM ammunition, still nestled deep in the middle of the Cyclops's chest. With increased durability and endurance combined with an entire company of fire coordination pushes the 11-C3 just shy of the top three.

Number Three
   Our bronze medal winner is a big departure from the originals and refits we have seen so far. Despite the downtime and expense, House Kurita felt the need to reshape the Cyclops, this time with an endo steel frame to free up tonnage. Taking this tried and true command unit from a long range plinker back to the brawler that the original had, they did throw us some twists along the way. The CP-12-K has the new frame, but CASE in the side torsos as well, mitigating ammunition explosions.
   Strangely these side torsos have less armor than contemporary models, but each limb has close to a half ton of additional armor grafted onto it. The streak missiles and extended range arm lasers aren't new, but the class ten ultra autocannon and the twenty tubes of medium range missiles are not what we would expect from a Cyclops. It has enough heat capacity for most tasks, though it can get warm if the pilot isn't careful. This new take on an old 'Mech is the most potent and durable Cyclops we have seen yet.

Number Two   
Similar to our number three finisher, the runner-up in our top ten Cyclopses of all time also relies on an expensive rebuilt frame. What the CP-11-G does with that frame isn't revolutionary or innovative but is rather effective.  The secondary weapons are the streak/ER combo we have seen before while the long range attack is the effective Gauss paired with ten long range tubes, good enough for a decent gunner to knock down an enemy machine rather reliably.
   Where the Cyclops makes this decent firepower live up to a ninety ton machine is with durability. A CASE protects the right torso while this variant has the heaviest armor that has been placed onto a Cyclops. This 'Mech can provide fire support while also doing its communications job, yet not be easily threatened by the first group of recon units that show up. This well rounded machine still has its weak points, especially the right torso which is loaded with a Gauss rifle and two tons of explosive ammunition. While the CASE will save the machine, it will have to beat a hasty retreat with one mere ER medium laser to defend itself.

Number One
   Our top spot belongs to a Cyclops that sets itself apart from the others.  Every one we have seen sports a 360 rated engine for a top speed of over 60 kph. This is a ninety ton war machine and the designers of the CP-11-B make no bones about it. The missiles and lasers are not changed from the 10-Z that is being refitted. There is no complex rebuilt skeleton but simply a smaller engine, dropping a mere 10 kph off of walking and maximum speed.
   What does the smaller engine allow? The heavier armor slathered on, ferro-fibrous to boot, is nice but still falls short of some other models. The CASEs are helpful in each torso, but we still find SRM ammunition nestled next to the new engine. Rather this model finally packs the wallop that one expects from an assault 'Mech. Replacing the Zeus cannon is familiar Gauss firepower, but this time it takes on the form of two Gauss rifles, one in each torso. Ten freezers keep it cooler than it can ever get unless an enemy goes crazy with infernos. Even then, don't worry about shutting down, just use the two Gausses to remind him to go home.
   Is it a perfect 'Mech? Few are, but if you are assigned a Cyclops, this is the model to take. The combination of firepower and armor more than make up for the small loss of speed. The enemy will place a higher priority on this model but it is a deserved threat with fifty percent more protection than its parent design.

References: The first stop is generally the Master Unit List and there's a variety of units over at CamoSpecs.
« Last Edit: 01 July 2012, 21:22:46 by Kit deSummersville »
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #1 on: 29 June 2012, 09:36:57 »
Honestly, I'll probably stick to the command versions. The Cyclops's job is to keep the commander alive and commanding, not fighting. It has the speed to keep away from the really big assault 'mechs and avoid getting hopelessly outflanked by most heavies, and the firepower to make anyone wary of getting too close. This gives the bodyguards time to deal with the threat while the commander retreats to safety or takes matters into his own hands and acts to take care of threats quickly so he can get back to business. A Cyclops forced into direct combat is advised to behave much like a Banshee(a real one, not one of those Steiner walking gunboats). Use that speed to close immediately, and use your big gun and massive physical weapons(the anatomically inclined will call them fists or feet) to take down the threat NOW, or at least shock him with your aggressiveness to psyche him into withdrawing. This obviously won't work all the time, and you don't have the armor for much more than a sharp and short fight. If it looks like it will last too long, withdraw. That commander is far more important than the Cyclops' actual firepower. If you're using a Cyclops as an actual fighting 'mech, you're either doing it horribly wrong, or trying to be sneaky by putting your CO next to the Cyclops instead of in it, to draw attention away from him. The double Gauss Cyclops should be okay here, though expect high attrition rates, since it will be unable to keep up when the CO and the rest of his bodyguards relocate, leaving this Cyclops behind for a last stand kind of fight.

About the only Cyclops I'd use as an actual assault 'mech is the 11-H. This thing is a hideous infighting brute, and the Marians have better command rides anyway. Again, drive it like a Banshee. Get in as close as you can as fast as you can, and just wreak havoc from within the enemy's battle lines.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #2 on: 29 June 2012, 10:12:42 »
Thanks for the write-up!
The Cyclops has always been an odd-ball to me.  Everybody knows it (it's been in the various box sets for so many editions), but few use it.  For, as you said, it's just a big Hunchback, and the refits came late and with nothing that stood out.

Historical Note:  The CP-11-B was originally a pure drop engine for gauss rifle and more armor swap (ok, I added a C3 slave as well..).  It was intended as an answer to the CCAF, usually short of assault 'mechs anyway, facing large loses during the Jihad and needing something to fill in assault lances.  The Cyclops is generally considered a fairly common Liao 'mech and most Cyclops upgrades are from a Kurita refit plant..   Then the marketing department got a hold of it and demanded CASE and swapping to ferro-fibrous armor.  And that meant going back to Kurita (Lexatech Industries, Hun Ho), according to Objectives: Kurita.  (No Cyclops refits mentioned in Objectives: CC).  At least Hun Ho has a history of selling on the open market..
Though CC might be doing some "ad hoc", as the CP-11-B has an intro date of 3071, and Objectives: DC says Lexatech started in 3075.
« Last Edit: 29 June 2012, 10:15:47 by nckestrel »
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #3 on: 29 June 2012, 10:39:21 »
the Cyclops' main advantage in it's weapons array is that it keeps people the heck away from it. giving the commander the beatstick that is an AC/20 and (barely) enough speed to bring it to bear on flankers trying to wreak havoc on the real lines before they cause trouble keeps the enemy forces honest enough to lets your commander coordinate his forces with  support and decide when it's right to march up to the fore and reinforce the intimidation factor of that firepower by suddenly smashing into a weary enemy formation.

i've always had a personal soft spot for the 'mech myself, in spite of its massive torso bomb and mounting the armor of a 'mech 50 tons it's junior. i just like it's fluffed comms abilities and that massive "eye" watching the field. not to mention it's one of the few "assault" battlemechs that could actually keep up with the line in 3025 without being entirely useless in some capacity....
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #4 on: 29 June 2012, 11:10:27 »
It looks like and erect Stalker!
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #5 on: 29 June 2012, 12:19:18 »
   What does this one lack? Pop, for one. At ninety tons, few heavy 'Mechs will be scared by twenty missiles or the short range firepower that rivals a light 'Mech's, with just two lasers and four SRM tubes. The 10-Q may be able to coordinate the battle and keep its pilot safe, but as a threat on the modern battlefield, it lands with a thud.

Uh...Kit....the CP-10-Q packs a third medium laser according to the FASA sheet I'm looking at right now. Combined with 14 heat sinks, that usually gives it about 19-21 points of firepower in close that it can use liberally without overheating at all, even when it runs. Not bad at all for its era. Combined with the 2 LRM-10's, you have average Heavy 'Mech firepower and the deep bins (24 shots for each LRM) mean that you can keep up that barrage for a long time. Given the massive amount of armor and the total lack of heat issues when bracket shooting, it can wear down things like that have bigger offensive payloads, but lighter armor and fewer heat sinks because it can put out fire consistently while absorbing tremendous damage. For its era, it's actually a pretty good fighter if you want to use a "grinding" strategy.

It's not perfect (4 LRM-5's would be nice instead of the 2 10's, or maybe dropping the SRM Launcher, ammo, and 1 HS to upgrade to paired 15's), but it's better than the original version overall, even as a general combat machine. Sure, it can't compete in the modern era, but a switch to Freezers and four tons of extra electronic gear and/or weapons would certainly help that.

BTW: Thanks for writing a Cyclops article. Been waiting for this one for a while. :)
« Last Edit: 29 June 2012, 12:40:26 by mitchberthelson »

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #6 on: 29 June 2012, 12:32:10 »
A belief I've held for - ten years now? About that long - is that the ORIGINAL production Cyclops, the one that came out of the Terran factories, came with a Gauss Rifle; after the factory was destroyed and the 1SW, the GR was ripped out and replaced with the AC/20 we all know and... don't mind.

Of course, this is backed up by exactly nothing in the canon, and in fact is outright contradicted, but I like the notion anyway.

One of the 'Mechs the players had in the Kentares IV campaign I ran was a Cyclops equipped in just such a way; it actually turned out to be quite valuable. It died, of course, but not before headcapping an Archer from across the battlefield.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #7 on: 01 July 2012, 18:41:58 »
I remember rolling up a Cyclops in a Mercenary campaign some 15 years ago...  I downgraded the engine and swapped the LRM for a second Gauss and extra armour long before learning about the CP-11-B.

It did alright for me - best moment was head-capping a Shadow Cat in partial cover at long range with my first shot of the game.  The Smoke Jaguar recce star retreated in disorder and I salvaged the Shadow Cat for my commander...   O0

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #8 on: 01 July 2012, 19:43:33 »
Uh...Kit....the CP-10-Q packs a third medium laser according to the FASA sheet I'm looking at right now. Combined with 14 heat sinks, that usually gives it about 19-21 points of firepower in close that it can use liberally without overheating at all, even when it runs. Not bad at all for its era. Combined with the 2 LRM-10's, you have average Heavy 'Mech firepower and the deep bins (24 shots for each LRM) mean that you can keep up that barrage for a long time. Given the massive amount of armor and the total lack of heat issues when bracket shooting, it can wear down things like that have bigger offensive payloads, but lighter armor and fewer heat sinks because it can put out fire consistently while absorbing tremendous damage. For its era, it's actually a pretty good fighter if you want to use a "grinding" strategy.

Mitch beat me to it, the 10-Q has a Medium where the AC20 used to be.
Okay its not much but hey, it does help.


In a long ago MW1 Campaign our Cyclops had the smaller engine now seen on the 11B..... and it Jumped 3-5-3, poor P-Hawk found out the hard way when it DFA'd him.  Nothing like 90 tons of fun to ruin your day. 

For the canon models & actually like the Z & Q,  the Z fits right in between the Hunchie & Atlas in BV & Abilities and can be a good unit in the right environment.  The Q is very much a "commanders" machine w/ the extra LRM's & Armor.


I'm a fan of the 11C & 11B both, nice upgrades and quite effective at what they are ment for.

The Kurita, FRR/C*, & Periphery versions don't do anything for me and the Jury is still out on the newer C3 models as I've yet to use those.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #9 on: 02 July 2012, 07:00:45 »
Strangely I found the 11H to be quite successful. It is focused where most other Cyclops are undecided if they want to do brawling or long range sniping.

Of course as a command 'Mech it is good if it can do both but the Legions got better Command Mechs (Atlases, Marauder IIs, or Command Console Battlemasters) anyway.
As a close combat brawler it is a brute and usually the rockets last as long as its armour. Just don't use it out in the open as this thing is meant to lurk in dark, tight alleys. And don't try to hunt fast 'Mechs- wait for something big and slow.
I tend to use 2 RLs together with the AC and the MLs which means I got 3 rounds of full firepower. It is important to use the Rockets in the arms in the first volley as it would be a waste to lose them when the arms come off.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #10 on: 02 July 2012, 12:37:33 »
The Q is very much a "commanders" machine w/ the extra LRM's & Armor.

Yeah....the WOB commander who's the main villain in my current AtoW campaign uses a Terran-refitted Q with the two 10 racks switched out for four 5's and Freezers installed like I mentioned above.

In the interest of "maxing out" the Q's mission profile, the savings got him CASE (and a move of the SRM ammo into another torso) and a bunch of electronics, including a Command Console. Combined with a functional Tacticon, that thing is hell on wheels for initiative and electronic warfare.

The deep bins on a Q make it awesome for using special LRM ammo in a support capacity (minelaying, smoke, etc.). With the right upgrades to keep it relevant, you can do some great stuff.
« Last Edit: 02 July 2012, 12:40:36 by mitchberthelson »

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #11 on: 02 July 2012, 12:47:38 »
I agree that the AC20 is the perfict weapon for a commander, in the sense that anyone who wants to kill the enemy CO will want to do it fast, before the CO can rally the unit to them, which means getting in close and hitting hard.  The Cyclops hits back, and makes the little light line breachers you tend to see hunting COs in Archers think twice before closing to ML range.  Sure, a Phoenix Hawk or Wolverine will give one a lot of trouble, but they'll stay at that 10-15 hex range, which means it will take a while to bring even the weekly armored Cyclops down; plenty of time for the other units in the CO's lance to move in and put the SOB down.

But, for much the same reason, the Cyclops is a pretty problematic assualt mech.  There's a lot of fun you can have, especaly if you don't keep the speed.  But, that's been done to death (the Banshee S, for example) and there are already Awesomes, Stalkers, Atlases and so so many other mechs out there that if you have leave to pick you may as well pick one of them.  Yes, if you're a merc and you salvage one, then that's that and you do what you can.  But to say "I want a line breaching, hard hitting, close ranged assualt mech... I'll pick a Cyclops!"  No one does that.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #12 on: 02 July 2012, 12:53:51 »
I agree that the AC20 is the perfict weapon for a commander, in the sense that anyone who wants to kill the enemy CO will want to do it fast, before the CO can rally the unit to them, which means getting in close and hitting hard.  The Cyclops hits back, and makes the little light line breachers you tend to see hunting COs in Archers think twice before closing to ML range.  Sure, a Phoenix Hawk or Wolverine will give one a lot of trouble, but they'll stay at that 10-15 hex range, which means it will take a while to bring even the weekly armored Cyclops down; plenty of time for the other units in the CO's lance to move in and put the SOB down.

For this reason, the Cyclops H just screams for an upgrade to Long Tom cannon by removing some of the smaller weapons. :)

Nuke those pesky backstabbers without any care for their inflated movement mods and support your people wherever needed without exposing yourself to return fire. When somebody finally gets close....it's Itano Circus time!!!

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #13 on: 02 July 2012, 12:55:39 »
I like the way you think, good sir. 8)
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #14 on: 02 July 2012, 12:59:21 »
I like the way you think, good sir. 8)

You could probably pull it off best by downgrading the RL 20's to the same number of rockets, but in 10pt. launchers, and then removing 2 HS and 1 ML. Or, you could do the engine downgrade if you like.

EDIT: A 'Mech Mortar upgrade would also be nice.
« Last Edit: 02 July 2012, 13:06:03 by mitchberthelson »

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #15 on: 02 July 2012, 14:30:51 »
One of the best things of the plain-vanilla 10-Z is the 20 AC/20 rounds. This allows you to fire the thing even with TN# of 12, which has scared the crap out of my opponents on more than one occasion.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #16 on: 02 July 2012, 14:38:15 »
The Cyclops does a great job leading my Hunchbacks and AC/20 Chargers in.  Its an OK mech, but a great fluff mech, so I try to find a place for it when I can.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #17 on: 02 July 2012, 14:44:44 »
One of the best things of the plain-vanilla 10-Z is the 20 AC/20 rounds. This allows you to fire the thing even with TN# of 12, which has scared the crap out of my opponents on more than one occasion.

Those four tons are good for carrying special ammo, too.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #18 on: 02 July 2012, 15:51:52 »
One of the best things of the plain-vanilla 10-Z is the 20 AC/20 rounds. This allows you to fire the thing even with TN# of 12, which has scared the crap out of my opponents on more than one occasion.

if you're close enough to get hit by the AC/20, you're close enough to encourage the pilot to empty the bins before you crit them. that the ammo's easily emptied by taking shots other people wouldn't take doesn't work in the attacker's favor there.

and most only need to run into an 20-point rebuttal in the long-range brackets one to teach them it's not worth the risk.  O:-)
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #19 on: 02 July 2012, 15:59:52 »
I like the way you think, good sir. 8)
So do I.  As stated there, it's a Class A refit for a Sniper Cannon and a few tons of ammo, so really what reason do you have for NOT doing the swap?
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #20 on: 02 July 2012, 16:14:44 »
So do I.  As stated there, it's a Class A refit for a Sniper Cannon and a few tons of ammo, so really what reason do you have for NOT doing the swap?

Not bad at all. As a matter of personal taste, I prefer the Long Tom and rockets, but that design should do fine.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #21 on: 02 July 2012, 16:24:54 »
Not bad at all. As a matter of personal taste, I prefer the Long Tom and rockets, but that design should do fine.
I'd prefer the range of the LT too, but I wanted to keep it as more of a supporter than a really major threat, and the big LRM rack is a nice booster.  Still, it's not so bad I guess, doing the LT-and-rockets thing gets you 15 rounds and 8 RL10s, or 20 rounds and 6 RL10s.  I'd go with the former; I don't expect to be around for too long in one of those and I'm not going to be flushing rockets all at once with only the 12 DHS of a straight conversion.  That's without modding engines or armor or anything else, and keeping the arm-mounted MLs (but not the chest SRMs) so you can still vary it a bit.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #22 on: 02 July 2012, 19:04:46 »
I'm surprised there was never Thunderbolt 15 or 20 version. I would be a fairly straightforward refit of the original, which I'm actually quite fond of - I'm not sure I've ever picked it myself, but it has worked well for me when it has popped up on various RATs.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #23 on: 02 July 2012, 19:55:38 »
Thunderbolt launchers seem to be somewhat underused to begin with, honestly. the concentrated stopping power in a Thunderbolt 15-20 is practically made for weapons array on the Cyclops though, i might have to nick that idea from under your hat sometime LCC....
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #24 on: 02 July 2012, 21:28:31 »
What I find interesting about the Cyclops is we have never seen a Royal variant.  Given the fluff about it as a command ride I would have expected the SLDF to make an upgrade for their own commanders with a Command Console and probably some other shiny toys like an XLE, Endo, Gauss Rifles, Arrow IV, 10-X's, UAC 5's, Artemis IV, Pulse Lasers, SSRMs (which would force the ammo out of the CT), and maybe even some of their stealth tech because they do like their shiny new toys.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #25 on: 03 July 2012, 01:51:29 »
Thunderbolt launchers seem to be somewhat underused to begin with, honestly. the concentrated stopping power in a Thunderbolt 15-20 is practically made for weapons array on the Cyclops though, i might have to nick that idea from under your hat sometime LCC....

Well, it's a bit impractical to have that stopping power cut in half at five hexes or closer (though hot-loading might help address that if those rules actually worked), there's a flat 50% chance it never arrives if your target carries an AMS, and you don't really get a lot of shots per ton, either. Ultimately I think the main downside here would be that Thunderbolts call for a bit more deliberate jockeying to get the range juuust right -- not too close yet not too far -- than you'd really want on a commander's ride.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #26 on: 03 July 2012, 11:19:19 »
What I find interesting about the Cyclops is we have never seen a Royal variant.  Given the fluff about it as a command ride I would have expected the SLDF to make an upgrade for their own commanders with a Command Console and probably some other shiny toys like an XLE, Endo, Gauss Rifles, Arrow IV, 10-X's, UAC 5's, Artemis IV, Pulse Lasers, SSRMs (which would force the ammo out of the CT), and maybe even some of their stealth tech because they do like their shiny new toys.

I think it might be cool to see a Royal, but I also think it might not be necessary given the combination of the small number of the 'Mechs per Regiment (between 1 and 4 at max, I'd imagine) and the fact that SLDF commanders of the rank to pilot a Cyclops were allowed such significant leeway for personal modifications that each Cyclops would have evolved into a unique machine anyway. Other Royals made sense because they would end up piloted by line soldiers in large numbers or perhaps by junior officers with only minor mods.

Each of these, on the other hand, would have become a custom machine when the officer in question got done with it anyway. It was probably easier to just produce the "monkey model" for the Successor States and let each SLDF senior officer place his own custom order for the mods he wanted.

EDIT: One point about the Arrow IV, which ties into the reason I don't like the Patriot: I don't want my commander drawing attention to himself by becoming an identifiable, easily-traceable threat to folks across the entire combat zone rather than in just his local area, and attracting resources set aside specifically to remove that threat. Counter-battery, fast flankers, and air strikes, all of which are charged with engage arty pieces as high priority targets as soon as they fire need to be kept well away from my CO. He has enough of a target on his back already, thanks. :)
« Last Edit: 03 July 2012, 11:26:37 by mitchberthelson »

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #27 on: 03 July 2012, 13:41:08 »
What IS the ideal armament for a commander ride, then? I'd say mostly long-ranged (LRMs/ERPPCs/Gauss Rifles), with enough of a short-range punch (whether from ERPPCs or AC/20s or what have you) to keep light flankers from outgunning him. Armored enough to keep the commander alive, especially if he has to use himself and his command lance as a reserve, but not so heavily armored that he'll be tempted to plunge into combat constantly.

In that case, I think the original Cyclops almost succeeds; all it needs is more longer-range armament, maybe dropping the SRM and expanding the LRM rack, or reducing the AC/20's ammo load somewhat (because with that huge clip it DOES tempt one to drive in to combat) to do the same, or maybe both. An AC/20 and 2 MLs is enough to dissuade flankers from closing, what it needs is more long-range firepower to contribute without endangering the commander unduly.

In modern times, I'd love to see a 3/5/5 IJJ design, probably with a Light Engine (not an XL) and plenty of long-range firepower. Dual C3 Masters could easily be possible, either to coordinate a company or even a battalion (through the company commander 'Mechs).

But hey, that's in the realm of unofficial designs.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #28 on: 03 July 2012, 13:43:52 »
What IS the ideal armament for a commander ride, then?

Lots of armor, c3 and mobility?
Anything else is a distraction?

Oh, and enough room for either a staff, or for the staff to communicate with the commander sufficiently (and I don't mean by radio.."look at the map here...oh wait..")
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #29 on: 03 July 2012, 13:51:25 »
What I find interesting about the Cyclops is we have never seen a Royal variant.  Given the fluff about it as a command ride I would have expected the SLDF to make an upgrade for their own commanders with a Command Console and probably some other shiny toys like an XLE, Endo, Gauss Rifles, Arrow IV, 10-X's, UAC 5's, Artemis IV, Pulse Lasers, SSRMs (which would force the ammo out of the CT), and maybe even some of their stealth tech because they do like their shiny new toys.

I think it might be cool to see a Royal, but I also think it might not be necessary given the combination of the small number of the 'Mechs per Regiment (between 1 and 4 at max, I'd imagine) and the fact that SLDF commanders of the rank to pilot a Cyclops were allowed such significant leeway for personal modifications that each Cyclops would have evolved into a unique machine anyway. Other Royals made sense because they would end up piloted by line soldiers in large numbers or perhaps by junior officers with only minor mods.

Each of these, on the other hand, would have become a custom machine when the officer in question got done with it anyway. It was probably easier to just produce the "monkey model" for the Successor States and let each SLDF senior officer place his own custom order for the mods he wanted. 

Interesting thought on no Royal but just lots of Colonels w/ specific mods.

Hmm,  Class-D field capable by any unit........

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Simple, easy-ish to do in the field w/ a base or dropper, adds quite a bit of ability IMHO.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #30 on: 03 July 2012, 13:55:13 »
I can't help but think that's not a very good reason to not have Royals.  We have other Royal assault 'Mechs, like the Highlander, which are still more than capable of being a commander's ride.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #31 on: 03 July 2012, 13:59:12 »
What IS the ideal armament for a commander ride, then? I'd say mostly long-ranged (LRMs/ERPPCs/Gauss Rifles), with enough of a short-range punch (whether from ERPPCs or AC/20s or what have you) to keep light flankers from outgunning him.

By armament I'm assuming we mean weapons......... for that, LRM's, he can command while being behind cover & contribute indirect fire.  Easy back up is ML battery.

Other good things: Command Console, BAP, ECM, AMS, C3, TAG, along w/ Armor & speed/jumpjets.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #32 on: 03 July 2012, 16:01:23 »
Dual C3 Masters could easily be possible, either to coordinate a company or even a battalion (through the company commander 'Mechs).


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #33 on: 03 July 2012, 17:06:26 »
I can't help but think that's not a very good reason to not have Royals.  We have other Royal assault 'Mechs, like the Highlander, which are still more than capable of being a commander's ride.

That Mech was designed to defend strongpoints and for general assault. It works as a command machine and was almost certainly modded into a specialized one on a frequent basis, but it's going to be MUCH more numerous than the Cyclops and also frequently piloted in entire company strength formations in assault units. Therefore, there are economies of scale that argue for a Royal variant for all of them. The problem lies not with Royal Assaults that were capable of being commander's rides, but with the Cyclops and the fact that it was so thinly spread and so optimized for field commanders.

Being capable of being a command Mech does not make a Royal configuration for a particular 'Mech inefficient. It can be argued, however, that making a Royal variant for a machine that serves mostly in tiny numbers as a field commander's ride where it is certain to be heavily modified anyway is inefficent. Since they were a main Assault 'Mech of the SLDF, it is a near certainty that there were entire battalions of non-command Highlanders out there in the SLDF in addition to those 'Mechs that you mention would be used for command, especially since the commanders of those battalions would often like to have the same overall machine as their men. Not usually so for the Cyclops, which was a specialized machine that was not usually employed in lance or company strength (though that did occur in some rare cases, one of which was mentioned the TRO 3025 fluff, I think).

I meant to state that the primary users of the Royals would be line soldiers and junior officers, with commanders being obviously much smaller in number. They could certainly still use those machines, though. Sorry if my earlier statement seemed to argue against commanders using them at all.
« Last Edit: 03 July 2012, 17:09:05 by mitchberthelson »

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #34 on: 03 July 2012, 17:19:41 »
I think it might be cool to see a Royal, but I also think it might not be necessary given the combination of the small number of the 'Mechs per Regiment (between 1 and 4 at max, I'd imagine) and the fact that SLDF commanders of the rank to pilot a Cyclops were allowed such significant leeway for personal modifications that each Cyclops would have evolved into a unique machine anyway. Other Royals made sense because they would end up piloted by line soldiers in large numbers or perhaps by junior officers with only minor mods.

Each of these, on the other hand, would have become a custom machine when the officer in question got done with it anyway. It was probably easier to just produce the "monkey model" for the Successor States and let each SLDF senior officer place his own custom order for the mods he wanted.

This is possible, but the SLDF was big on standardization so I would expect to see a royal before lots of field variants.  A new design also gives you a lot more options in high performance upgrades with things like Endo and XLEs which would be hard to add to an existing machine.

Quote
EDIT: One point about the Arrow IV, which ties into the reason I don't like the Patriot: I don't want my commander drawing attention to himself by becoming an identifiable, easily-traceable threat to folks across the entire combat zone rather than in just his local area, and attracting resources set aside specifically to remove that threat. Counter-battery, fast flankers, and air strikes, all of which are charged with engage arty pieces as high priority targets as soon as they fire need to be kept well away from my CO. He has enough of a target on his back already, thanks. :)

I fully agree with you and did use a Gauss Rifle in my own design, I just suggested it as a possibility because you do have the room for it.  It would honestly be a much better choice in later eras when the commanders start needing help remembering they should not be in the thick of things, but for a disciplined SLDF officer with a dedicated artillery formation I am inclined to agree that it causes more problems than it solves.

If you want to see what I did, here is the link to my own Royal variant:

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,253.msg462522.html#msg462522

What IS the ideal armament for a commander ride, then? I'd say mostly long-ranged (LRMs/ERPPCs/Gauss Rifles), with enough of a short-range punch (whether from ERPPCs or AC/20s or what have you) to keep light flankers from outgunning him. Armored enough to keep the commander alive, especially if he has to use himself and his command lance as a reserve, but not so heavily armored that he'll be tempted to plunge into combat constantly....

While I agree that it needs a blend of firepower at all ranges, I think survivability and mobility are really the key factors here.  I would also not intentionally handicap it to keep the commander out of combat because the enemy will be trying to get to him so he needs every advantage he can get.  This is doubly true in the Star League era when the commanders were highly trained soldiers who would know better than to go charging at the enemy even with a high performance machine because they know they are more valuable commanding than adding one more 'Mech to the hundreds or thousands already fighting.  They also naturally need the command equipment to keep on top of the battle, but that is not really something I would count as weapons.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #35 on: 03 July 2012, 17:43:21 »
This is possible, but the SLDF was big on standardization so I would expect to see a royal before lots of field variants.  A new design also gives you a lot more options in high performance upgrades with things like Endo and XLEs which would be hard to add to an existing machine.

Per Liberation of Terra (pg. 147):
"All Royal battalion commanders and “regular” regimental
commanders, or higher, may make any number of Class A, B, C and/
or D Refits (see p. 188, SO) on their ’Mechs/fighters/vehicles."

Based on the above, I agree that you might be able to justify a Royal for anything higher than Class D, but there would still be such a small number of machines and a such great amount of A-D customization that the accountants might look at it funny.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #36 on: 03 July 2012, 17:46:45 »
The SLDF is also known for buying dozens of battleships it didn't want.  I doubt even several hundred high tech assault mech would register as any more than a blip on the radar.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #37 on: 03 July 2012, 18:01:20 »
The SLDF is also known for buying dozens of battleships it didn't want.  I doubt even several hundred high tech assault mech would register as any more than a blip on the radar.

This brings up a point....did the SLDF even want this 'Mech at all? the RAT's from Liberation of Terra don't make it seem that way. I know that RAT's aren't truly representative, but it appears that having a Cyclops isn't really a part of the "flavor" of the SLDF or Rim Worlds armies until you're down at the "C" rating level. Royal units had plenty of other command 'Mechs for the job (Command Console Battlemaster comes to mind), so maybe the Cyclops didn't have much of a market in the SLDF (which had really sophisticated MHQ's and command DropShips to handle what the consoles couldn't), even with that awesome computer.

I dunno, but it's worth considering.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #38 on: 03 July 2012, 18:02:20 »
The SLDF is also known for buying dozens of battleships it didn't want.  I doubt even several hundred high tech assault mech would register as any more than a blip on the radar.

yeah short of some nimrod general armoring his mech in platinum on the taxpayers dime they dont care, he can do it if he pays for it himself of course, just not taxpayer money :-)
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #39 on: 03 July 2012, 18:30:43 »
yeah short of some nimrod general armoring his mech in platinum on the taxpayers dime they dont care, he can do it if he pays for it himself of course, just not taxpayer money :-)

In an era of mega-engineering, asteroid mining, etc. platinum is likely less expensive than the laminated, diamond weave, composites that make up ferro-fibrous armor.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #40 on: 04 July 2012, 06:50:12 »
Hmm, weren't the Royals more of HAF than straight-up SLDF thing? Is there a RAT for HAF regiments in the Liberation era?

At least with the ASFs, Kerensky started handing Royal tech to anyone who wanted to sign in for the invasion, or hand over most of the production, but before that, it'd have the Royal formations.

Kerensky himself led from an Atlas,a s did DeChevalier, I think. And they were more hands-on leaders.

If I was doing a Royal Cyclops, I'd probably invest in FA, Freezers, LRMs...Maybe swap the AC/20 for GR and up the SRM battery for close-in with Streaks. Hmm, I think I'd need to roll some designs around...
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #41 on: 04 July 2012, 08:15:08 »
Kerensky himself led from an Atlas,a s did DeChevalier, I think. And they were more hands-on leaders.

Wrong Kerensky. Aleksandr drove an Orion. You are right about DeChavilier.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #42 on: 04 July 2012, 08:42:36 »
Ah, the poor, justifiably maligned Cyclops.  In 3025 'Mechs that pick "armor" as the element of the speed, armor, firepower trio they're going to short tend to be among the worst.  The 'clops is all the worse for spending two of those tons on extra AC ammo it can't possibly use before exploding, and having a weapons complement strikingly similar to an Atlas, only less so.  My familiarity with the post-3025 versions is less than complete, but a Gauss rifle in place of the AC makes good sense.  I like the 12-K, but reducing the speed as in the 11-B just makes it feel like not-a-Cyclops to me.

The 8th Galedon Regulars command company features a CP-10-Q in the Galtor assault I just kicked off in my campaign, so I'll be interested to see how it performs.  Probably a lot like a Banshee-3E.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #43 on: 04 July 2012, 10:22:18 »
This brings up a point....did the SLDF even want this 'Mech at all? the RAT's from Liberation of Terra don't make it seem that way. I know that RAT's aren't truly representative, but it appears that having a Cyclops isn't really a part of the "flavor" of the SLDF or Rim Worlds armies until you're down at the "C" rating level.

you forget that any star league forces would have had the command modules for their Cyclops, which is what they would have wanted them for. not that i know what those are but they sound pretty useful, since they can detach and all.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #44 on: 04 July 2012, 10:54:53 »
you forget that any star league forces would have had the command modules for their Cyclops, which is what they would have wanted them for. not that i know what those are but they sound pretty useful, since they can detach and all.

the Cyclops: bringing you the very best in carry-on headquarters.

Those would be the collapsible command modules detailed in TacOps, I suppose. Pretty nice to have (properly set up it serves as a level 1 heavy building with a CF of 60 that acts as a mobile HQ with seven tons of comm gear), but really more of a scenario element than anything else considering that it takes five minutes to attach or detach and fifteen minutes more to prepare for use after unlimbering it from the 'Mech.

(It also takes up 16 tons and 12 critical slots that AFAIK cannot be split, so it really only fits into the side torso of a suitably big 'Mech with a standard engine. I imagine that it replaced the autocannon on the Cyclopses that actually featured it.)

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #45 on: 04 July 2012, 11:00:51 »
The Cyclops exists to make Kerensky's Atlas order look good.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #46 on: 04 July 2012, 14:14:43 »
Hmm, weren't the Royals more of HAF than straight-up SLDF thing? Is there a RAT for HAF regiments in the Liberation era?

On a 1-3 on 1D6, Royals use the "A" Column in that book. 4-6 gets them the "B" Column (all of this includes their -3 modifier). It is impossible for a Royal unit to start play with a Cyclops in those scenarios unless the players do something special because it's in the "C" Column.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #47 on: 04 July 2012, 14:20:09 »
you forget that any star league forces would have had the command modules for their Cyclops, which is what they would have wanted them for. not that i know what those are but they sound pretty useful, since they can detach and all.

the Cyclops: bringing you the very best in carry-on headquarters.

The command module version was rare, and I already pointed out that a Mobile HQ can do that job better, as did Kit in the original article. The building provides 7 tons of Communications Equipment when detached. A Mobile HQ has the same functionality, but doesn't take up space on a 'Mech and can move rapidly.

The only time the Collapsible Command Module would be worth it is if you had to coordinate an entire force that was dropped from space and had to include no vehicle units. There are cases where that can happen, but honestly, there are command-fitted DropShips that will serve you better when you're doing that (I think there's an Overlord that can do it).

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #48 on: 04 July 2012, 21:20:23 »
The command module version was rare, and I already pointed out that a Mobile HQ can do that job better, as did Kit in the original article. The building provides 7 tons of Communications Equipment when detached. A Mobile HQ has the same functionality, but doesn't take up space on a 'Mech and can move rapidly.

can a 'mech carry a collapsible command module as external cargo? i've honestly never had any reason for it to come up.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #49 on: 06 July 2012, 00:58:16 »
In my group, the Cyclops was never considered a traditional assault unit. It's sole purpose in our games is that of combat support. To be more precise, it's job is to help the field commander of a large formation coordinate his/her forces, and coordinate with other large formations in the task force. In that regard, we have long had house rules involving "strategic" use of theCyclop's B-2000 system. And the CP series 'Mechs operating in this role are considered to have Enhanced Satellite Uplink (ESU).

The B-2000 equipped Cyclops is always attached to the reinforced command company at brigade level, or in the H.Q. detachment of a regimental battlegroup. It's weapons are considered purely defensive in nature, since the 'Mech isn't used in offensive maneuvers except in the most dire of circumstances. In other words, if your brigade or regiment's command element is being used to take on the enemy, things have gone to shit. And because of it's role, the ten tons of armor on some of the older variants wasn't considered that much of a handicap.

The field commander NEVER uses the Cyclops as his/her ride. The only exception to this "golden rule" is if the commanders in question are not of the Mechwarrior MOS, and have a need to operate from a command 'Mech for whatever reason. In that case, a home-brew CCC (Cockpit Command Console) variation of the CP-10-Z or CP-11-A is available for use. Which works out nicely, since we still use the old rules for cumulative initiative bonuses involving CCCs and ESU.

The reason for this arrangement is simple. As a general rule, command officers in our campaigns do not get associated with certain 'Mech designs, as they do in canon. Not every general or bird colonel is going to be operating a Battlemaster or Atlas. Not every captain of a medium recon company is going to jockey an old-school Phoenix Hawk with it's excellent Tek Battlecom system. Head hunters and "snatch squads" are a modern day reality in Battletech. There is no reason to make the bastards job any easier by playing Captain Obvious. If we didn't play under these guidelines, and ran as they do in canon, the Cyclops would be as obvious as a turd in a punch bowl.

The most common variants played are still the CP-11-A and CP-10-Z with slight upgrades. And the 'Mech is most common in "national" frontline forces. Occasionally, a well-equipped militia from a well-off world and a prosperous merc "free company", will have a -10-Z or -10-Q with a working Tacticon. But that isn't common.

The CP-10-HQ is a very uncommon beast. One or two may be encountered during a campaign. This variant is reserved for the ground-side element of army/navy Task Force Coordination Teams (TFCT), whose job is to oversee the assets responsible for navy support of army operations within a semi-autonomous command structure. The -10-HQ provides a mobile H.Q. facility for this unit, whose job and movements make traditional H.Q. vehicles impractical. These folks travel light and stay on the move frequently, because they are a high priority target for HK teams and special forces. Wiping them out would impose some serious penalties on the effectiveness and availability of naval support (whether from the sea or from orbit) under our campaign strategic house rules.


The standard C3 variants are likewise uncommon on our mapsheets, only used as a last resort. However, being intrigued with boosted C3 networks, the CP-11-C3 sees considerable use in experimental formations generated for trials of this newer system. In my experience, this technology shows promise.

The -11-B turns up in mercenary TO&Es every so often. It's considered a combat oriented variant, since it is treated as an upgrade to a standard Cyclops lacking a working Tacticon B-2000 computer.

The CP-11-G and CP-12-K are the up and coming new kids on the block. They are slowly becoming more common in our games, and are gaining popularity amongst our players. These vastly improved variations might be considered the "last word" in upgrades for the command-level Cyclops. With all of the utility of the two "classic" versions (-10-Z and -11-A), and vast improvements in survivability and defensive capability, I predict that they will eventually supplant the older variants in frontline command formations at some point.

The CP-11-H is no longer played in our games to amount to anything. But when first introduced, we raised some sweet hell with the thing. It is remembered with equal parts fondness and hatred all rolled up into one.

Treated as a modification to Cyclops units that lost their B-2000 assets, it was considered a "dirty trick" 'Mech (appropriate, considering it's origins in canon). Strutting around, acting all innocent (i.e. a standard Cyclops), it was a tempting target. When an enemy unit took the bait and moved in for the "baggin' n' taggin'", they would get a face full of 120 doses of "****** you!" in one massive volley. Even if it didn't cost a player team a Battlemech, tank, etc. nobody likes being played for a sucker. As a result of these dirty little games, the -11-H earned the nickname "One Eyed Monster" among it's admirers and haters. Appropriate considering the 'Mechs name and visage, and the fact that using one in a sneaky manner was considered something of a dick move by the controlling team. But all's fair in love and war, I say.

As for the dual cockpit refits, they are generally found in mercenary units or the military forces of independent worlds/collectives. They are never ran in militia or frontline forces we generate for campaigns. They are often used as straight up assault units, as opposed to the traditional duties of the Cyclops. And, like some other variants, are considered to lack the B-2000 battle computer.


Anyhow, that's just some of my thoughts on this classic machine.

And as always, just my two cents worth.




 



 
 
« Last Edit: 06 July 2012, 01:01:18 by oldfart3025 »
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #50 on: 06 July 2012, 01:20:13 »
I had this thought on the topic of quick-and-dirty lowtech refits:  A Blazer in place of the AC/20 would be fun.  Plus several heat sinks and perhaps a bit more armor.  Lower damage, certainly, but now you have (in '25, anyway) a 'long range' headcappper, without a 4 ton bomb sitting in your torso.  And I likwe energy weapons.   :)
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #51 on: 06 July 2012, 16:52:50 »
Though i loved the mech mini and the pics, i have never really liked any of the cyclops variants..
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #52 on: 06 July 2012, 23:56:41 »
I had this thought on the topic of quick-and-dirty lowtech refits:  A Blazer in place of the AC/20 would be fun.  Plus several heat sinks and perhaps a bit more armor.  Lower damage, certainly, but now you have (in '25, anyway) a 'long range' headcappper, without a 4 ton bomb sitting in your torso.  And I likwe energy weapons.   :)

Interesting. Though I find the Blazer cannon an interesting weapon on canon machines, I never considered it for any in-house refits.

Having a potent energy weapon as an autocannon replacement would definitely reduce it's logistical footprint a bit. And more armor wouldn't hurt, either.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #53 on: 07 July 2012, 12:34:22 »
Interesting. Though I find the Blazer cannon an interesting weapon on canon machines, I never considered it for any in-house refits.

Having a potent energy weapon as an autocannon replacement would definitely reduce it's logistical footprint a bit. And more armor wouldn't hurt, either.

yep
better range and damage, no boomage in the torso
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #54 on: 07 July 2012, 16:50:35 »
To me keeping it at 3/5 and adding JJS, replacing the AC with a spread of 3 SRM-6 streaks, upping the LRM to a 20 pack with arty, and having an ERPPC would be a good mod.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #55 on: 07 July 2012, 18:56:46 »
To me keeping it at 3/5 and adding JJS, replacing the AC with a spread of 3 SRM-6 streaks, upping the LRM to a 20 pack with arty, and having an ERPPC would be a good mod.

Yes, making it a slightly modified Highlander would improve it.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #56 on: 08 July 2012, 13:23:39 »
C'mon, as long as we're wishlisting, a 4/6/6 light engine IJJ model would be MY choice of the way to go. That way we could change Highlander Burial to... Cyclops Interment?

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #57 on: 08 July 2012, 13:32:40 »
Polyphemus Pulverizing
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #58 on: 08 July 2012, 18:02:42 »
Yes, making it a slightly modified Highlander would improve it.

In that case, switch it out to 4/6/4, go XL for the engine, LB for the AC-20 and make the remaining weapons a LRM-15 with art (2 tons ammo), an ER large and an ER Medium laser...
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #59 on: 08 July 2012, 18:13:28 »
We do have a design board.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #60 on: 08 July 2012, 18:42:46 »
We do have a design board.

but that requires actually checking the math! i don't know about you but i never bother to hammer the details of a redesign out until i think i'm going to use it, it gives it more of a "and before you give the plans to production, the board wants-" sense of realism to it.


but as long was we're talking about reworking it....can the SRM-4 be removed and put to better use? i mean on the one hand, it does let the Cyclops poke at the holes that Autocannon is going to make, but....it's already got so much fire in that range bracket, maybe you can boost the LRM rack or something with the tonnage instead? or even just more armor? d'you think this damages its combat profile too much?
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #61 on: 08 July 2012, 20:47:04 »
I like pulling the SRM to up the LRM to 15.  MMLs would be an interesting conversion later.  I should fire up skunkworks and look at that...
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #62 on: 09 July 2012, 01:24:25 »
Or dropping the LRM and SRM entirely and going with 2 er large lasers and a little more armor.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #63 on: 09 July 2012, 08:35:10 »
It doesn't matter if the math is good or not. Fan designs and refits belong in the fan design forum. [copper]
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #64 on: 09 July 2012, 13:29:08 »
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #65 on: 13 July 2012, 01:47:38 »
The Cyclops is a Hunchback pilot's dream.  It has the same armor (160 points), only now it has some extra guns, a command computer, and physical attacks that cause a heck of a lot more damage.  I've had a lot of success with them.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #66 on: 18 April 2020, 08:25:59 »
I had an opportunity to use the  11-C2. Thing is first class for a double master, surpassed only by the sunder B. I can't even complain (much) about the armour, since a company master being in a position to be shot means you're using it wrong.

My one complaint is the streak SRM launcher. I think I'd prefer the ability to use specialty ammo, like fragmentation or (Especially) smoke.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #67 on: 18 April 2020, 16:46:25 »
Holy 8 year Threadcromancy Batman!!!


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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #68 on: 18 April 2020, 16:47:46 »
Number Nine
   Our number nine finisher is an oddity among Cylopses but could be one of the best machines to fill its original role. Lacking the Zeus Autocannon, the CP-10-Q provides durable, if less than potent, fire support. By dropping the cannon, this version adds a second set of ten LRM tubes with two more tons of ammunition along with two heat sinks to make most heat worries vanish. Perhaps most impressively, this variant piles on the armor, sporting just shy of fifteen tons of thick armor, almost a fifty percent increase over the primary model.
   What does this one lack? Pop, for one. At ninety tons, few heavy 'Mechs will be scared by twenty missiles or the short range firepower that rivals a light 'Mech's, with just twothree lasers and four SRM tubes. The 10-Q may be able to coordinate the battle and keep its pilot safe, but as a threat on the modern battlefield, it lands with a thud.

Someone mentioned the Laser & you corrected that, but, there are a few other things wrong.

1.  Its 3 more tons of LRM ammo, so 24 shots per Rack.
2.  Its 7 more tons of Armor to be only 1/2 ton short of Max.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #69 on: 18 April 2020, 16:51:16 »
A belief I've held for - ten years now? About that long - is that the ORIGINAL production Cyclops, the one that came out of the Terran factories, came with a Gauss Rifle; after the factory was destroyed and the 1SW, the GR was ripped out and replaced with the AC/20 we all know and... don't mind.

Of course, this is backed up by exactly nothing in the canon, and in fact is outright contradicted, but I like the notion anyway.

One of the 'Mechs the players had in the Kentares IV campaign I ran was a Cyclops equipped in just such a way; it actually turned out to be quite valuable. It died, of course, but not before headcapping an Archer from across the battlefield.

Just field the 11A as a "custom" ride while using a "canon" record sheet.
Someone out there in 2765 much have thought of the idea prior to the 3045 canon intro date of the 11A.

Its a Class-A refit for the gauss, but the ammo swap for the LRM I think makes its C over all, either way its not Factory grade & you can do it in a repair bay or less.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #70 on: 18 April 2020, 17:20:48 »
Can't believe I didn't comment on this History Channel writeup the first time through. Still sad we didn't get a writeup of the CP-10-HQ.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #71 on: 18 April 2020, 18:03:06 »
Can't believe I didn't comment on this History Channel writeup the first time through. Still sad we didn't get a writeup of the CP-10-HQ.

Read the #6 entry, the last paragraph includes mentions of 3 models that didn't make the top 10 & it is one of them.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #72 on: 19 April 2020, 00:18:29 »
Yes, but it's summed up as "dedicated vehicle better" without talking about how to use one if you do have one.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #73 on: 20 January 2022, 01:10:43 »
Wonder if we'll ever get a new write-up for the Clan refit of the Cyclops from Recognition Guide: ilClan, vol. 21.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #74 on: 25 January 2022, 19:45:42 »
The stock CP-10-Z makes near-total sense for the role it's fluffed for. It's not so slow most units will be held up by the CO. It can contribute to a long-range firing line and shoot back if caught in the open, but most of its weapons are for last-ditch defense, and the AC/20 can simply end a lot of potential speedy headhunters. It doesn't have a lot of armor because it's expected to have bodyguards and it's not expected to get in sustained engagements. Really for its ostensible design purpose the only thing I can fault is the overabundance of autocannon ammo, 3 tons is borderline but 4 is nuts, if it's in a fight that long things have gone hideously awry. Two more tons of armor instead of two tons of ammo would have almost bumped it up roughly into "acceptable for a 3025 assault" territory without encouraging reckless behavior by "hands-on" officers, I think, and even additional heat sinks arguably would have made more sense than 20 autocannon shots although I guess there's some value to being able to say "So that's an 11 to-hit? Yeah sure what the hey."

Of course, there is limited value to having a dedicated command 'Mech that can be expressed in record sheets and dice rolls, and there was virtually none at all for the majority of the game's existence that took place before the invention of official rules for quirks.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #75 on: 25 January 2022, 21:58:52 »
You could always say that in addition to being a command ride the Cyclops is also a logistical one. It's capable of carrying ammo for your Victors and Hunchbacks through terrain unsuitable for J-27s, whether that's due to environmental conditions, or excessive enemies. :thumbsup:
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #76 on: 25 January 2022, 22:18:38 »
I feel like carrying excess ammunition and carrying a commander should be mutually exclusive, unless we're talking top tier awful social generals.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #77 on: 25 January 2022, 22:43:06 »
You could always say that in addition to being a command ride the Cyclops is also a logistical one. It's capable of carrying ammo for your Victors and Hunchbacks through terrain unsuitable for J-27s, whether that's due to environmental conditions, or excessive enemies. :thumbsup:

And the 'Mech jocks are going to hop out and transfer rounds by hand, I suppose?  :D
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #78 on: 26 January 2022, 00:04:28 »
Wonder if we'll ever get a new write-up for the Clan refit of the Cyclops from Recognition Guide: ilClan, vol. 21.
It is a mix of the CP-10-Z and CP-11-G. It combines 160 points of armor with an Endo chassis but manages to be slower. All the missiles are now Streak. ER Lasers in the arms. There is a Gauss Rifle sitting with two tons of ammo on a massive CASEII protected torso bomb that has a nasty habit of killing pilots as soon as the torso is breached.
That said it offers capability similar to an Atlas AS7-K for a lot fewer C-Bills and much lower running costs.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #79 on: 26 January 2022, 00:07:30 »
I thought it’s armor distribution was unique I guess you could say. It has weirdly weak limbs, but the toros have a fair amount of armor when you account for the doubling.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #80 on: 26 January 2022, 00:09:38 »
It's identical to the original Cyclops in points and layout, the only difference is that it's Hardened instead.
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Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #81 on: 26 January 2022, 00:23:37 »
Well that’s an improvement then. Still kinda funky, although the arms don’t carry much so they won’t be missed too much.
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Jellico

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #82 on: 26 January 2022, 03:29:02 »
The armor of both a riff on the original Cyclops and an experiment. Because of its size the Cyclops is able to allocate its armor in a very different way to a medium Mech. In this case the arms are basically ablative while the torso gets reasonably solid armor. As a technique this disappeared with weight saving technology and the realisation that armor is cheap for its effect.

Hardened Armor allows you to over armor locations and replicate the effect. In this case the 320 points of armor over armor the torso compared to a traditional assault. Will this prove more effective than blanket coverage? Future play will tell.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #83 on: 26 January 2022, 10:38:27 »
And the 'Mech jocks are going to hop out and transfer rounds by hand, I suppose?  :D

I said it would carry the ammo, not load it. Loading is what field crews are for, though if we're honest, the mechjocks *can* do it themselves in a pinch. The only real difference is that superiors sometimes actually listen when Mechwarriors complain about doing grunt work.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #84 on: 26 January 2022, 11:06:35 »
I have a fondness for the Cyclops, because it was the only surviving mech of my entire original collection from the Oakland Hills fire.  For some odd reason I had brought it with me to on a trip I took that day for family.   Also memorable for a game where I made a custom version carrying an arrow launcher for on board shenanigans.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #85 on: 29 January 2022, 01:22:15 »
I just got the Inner Sphere Support Lance yesterday and noticed that the new Cyclops is large and powerful looking.

I feel that this is false advertising.  ;)

In seriousness, I've only used the Cyclops once, in a scenario where our team was trying to reach an evac point before being overwhelmed.  The Cyclops was a stock 3025 config that just didn't have the speed to evade enemy mechs or the armor to survive them.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #86 on: 02 March 2022, 11:14:51 »
The CP-10-Z is a mech that I love to use in later eras a lot more than some of its more modern variants. The option to use different types of ammo makes it into a fantastic swiss army knife. As a Commamd mech I relegate it to a support role with smoke srms to provide its own cover and park it in heavy woods for a delicious commulative +4 defensive bonus. The LRM can then provide more smoke for advancing allies or whatever type of ammo you fancy. Four tons of AC20 ammo sudddnly becomes very attractive to bring precision ammo, allowing you to comfortably deal with any would be head hunters. With this kit my Clops can comfortably hang back giving my units init bonus while providing strong support.

In the Succession Wars I can just imagine Liao assigning Cyclops to those it didnt like but couldnt outright publicly get rid of, a situation going somewhat like this:

"Congratulations you have been promoted, abandon your Vindicator you are being assigned an assault mech now."

"Sweet! What am I getting?! An Atlas? A Battlemaster?"

"You are getting a Cyclops."

"Ohhh...."
« Last Edit: 02 March 2022, 11:19:21 by wildkadabra »

BrianDavion

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #87 on: 02 March 2022, 11:44:34 »
The CP-10-Z is a mech that I love to use in later eras a lot more than some of its more modern variants. The option to use different types of ammo makes it into a fantastic swiss army knife. As a Commamd mech I relegate it to a support role with smoke srms to provide its own cover and park it in heavy woods for a delicious commulative +4 defensive bonus. The LRM can then provide more smoke for advancing allies or whatever type of ammo you fancy. Four tons of AC20 ammo sudddnly becomes very attractive to bring precision ammo, allowing you to comfortably deal with any would be head hunters. With this kit my Clops can comfortably hang back giving my units init bonus while providing strong support.

In the Succession Wars I can just imagine Liao assigning Cyclops to those it didnt like but couldnt outright publicly get rid of, a situation going somewhat like this:

"Congratulations you have been promoted, abandon your Vindicator you are being assigned an assault mech now."

"Sweet! What am I getting?! An Atlas? A Battlemaster?"

"You are getting a Cyclops."

"Ohhh...."

nah the Liaos had a charger varient for that :D
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #88 on: 02 March 2022, 12:00:06 »
It doesn't have a lot of armor because it's expected to have bodyguards and it's not expected to get in sustained engagements.
If you're depending on having bodyguards so you don't need armor you also don't need weapons.  Indeed, you need weapons even less.  Your bodyguards can shoot nearby targets for you but they can't control bomb and artillery drift so they're the ones taking hits for you.  A good dedicated command mech should be carrying as much armor as possible at least on the torso and legs before it even thinks about weapons. 

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #89 on: 02 March 2022, 12:11:33 »
best refit for the cyclops 10Z, drop the AC 20 for an AC 5, adjust armor to about 17 tons or so.

makes the mech tougher, and while it loses it's "damn big gun" the AC 5 gives it more long range firepower to defend at a distance, instead of trying, and failing, to be a faster Atlas
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SteelRaven

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #90 on: 02 March 2022, 12:59:29 »
best refit for the cyclops 10Z, drop the AC 20 for an AC 5, adjust armor to about 17 tons or so.

makes the mech tougher, and while it loses it's "damn big gun" the AC 5 gives it more long range firepower to defend at a distance, instead of trying, and failing, to be a faster Atlas

That's when I would argue a PPC would be a better choice. Same tonnage and range as the AC/5, double the damage, no ammo concerns, only 3 more heat than the original AC/20 so more can go into armor. But this is also where we start going into fan design territory so I'll stop there.

As for swapping out the AC/20, the CP-10-Q does swap out the AC/20 for a second LRM-10 and 7 tons of armor which isn't bad.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #91 on: 02 March 2022, 13:34:44 »
As for swapping out the AC/20, the CP-10-Q does swap out the AC/20 for a second LRM-10 and 7 tons of armor which isn't bad.

AND another Medium Laser
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #92 on: 07 March 2022, 15:08:56 »
That's when I would argue a PPC would be a better choice.

I'd argue there's a forum for fan designs.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Cyclops
« Reply #93 on: 07 March 2022, 17:26:34 »
I ended my statement with that and brought up the CP-10-Q as a the canon lv 1 alternative to a Cyclops without the AC/20.

Thought there are worse glass canons in the BTU as well.
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