Author Topic: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?  (Read 3567 times)

Siegfried Marcus

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Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« on: 18 December 2018, 12:09:19 »
The Clans won most of their battles during Revival, but how often did they lose mechs in their victories against IS forces?  I know they took some losses from elaborate ambushes like walking into a swamp full of flammable gas and from environmental factors like falling into magma and an asteroid hitting a dropship.  A couple mechs were destroyed by ASFs on Rasalhague.  I'm wondering about the more typical battles which the Clans won.  I'm just asking for your perspective, but if you have evidence from canon sources, so much the better.
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Easy

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #1 on: 18 December 2018, 13:35:38 »
The Clans won most of their battles during Revival, but how often did they lose mechs in their victories against IS forces?  I know they took some losses from elaborate ambushes like walking into a swamp full of flammable gas and from environmental factors like falling into magma and an asteroid hitting a dropship.  A couple mechs were destroyed by ASFs on Rasalhague.  I'm wondering about the more typical battles which the Clans won.  I'm just asking for your perspective, but if you have evidence from canon sources, so much the better.


I'd venture that, say, at a third of the contested worlds in the first three waves, they suffered at least 25% casualties destroyed; cored or pilot killed. If two-thirds of conventional planetary militias were blitzed w/ no significant Clan losses, but Clan clusters could not simply declare worlds strategically secured while IS forces could mass firepower in open battle, Solamna deployment and pacification might cost more 2nd Line units cored, plus accident and sabotage, than Clans may judge worth notice.

Clan clusters could not draw as quickly from salvage and Isorla, like the IS, for the fronts, because Zellbrigen and the risk of Chalcas if an 'illigit' BattleMech is the only replacement available. "Get that 2nd Line jalopy off of the Bloodnamed's lawn!"

On this account, the wear and tear of Revival's frenetic pace, more OmniMechs may go down to a lack of maintenance checks than enemy fire in a week-long Revival blitz, that yet won't merit notice or remark by high command.

The way the Clans keep score muddies the water. The symbolic victory is a unique factor in Zell. Dogged insistence on observing form before declaring a grand melee, may, laughably, guarantee one casualty for the Clans at the outset of every engagement. That sort of thing.

Don't ask for my math homework, though.
« Last Edit: 18 December 2018, 14:07:28 by Easy »

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #2 on: 18 December 2018, 14:06:33 »
The old Wolf & JF Sourcebooks from the beginning of the 1990s still adhered to the phone book paradigm, listing every pilot/warrior in units.  They're post Tukayyid lists, so they're far more riddled with casualties than most Clusters would have been during the initial 5 waves, but you can use it to extrapolate reasonable guesses.

However most of those battles were successful planetary conquests, so the vast majority of any mission kills would presumably have been recovered and repaired or broken down for components, as appropriate.  Likewise, most pilots would be either wounded or dead; there'd be very few chances for Clanners to have been taken prisoner long-term prior to Tukayyid.

Colt Ward

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #3 on: 18 December 2018, 17:54:31 »
One of the other things to consider is that the strategic speed of Clan forces and their different tactical doctrine caused them to cut through IS forces to secure the objective- usually the planetary capital to force the government into capitulation.

As an example, consider Icar hit by the Wolves.  I am not sure if it was Wave 1 or 2, but half to a third of a cluster was involved in the attack against a mech regiment and a armored brigade.  The battle description does not talk about how the merc mechs were destroyed or Clan losses, but the Wolf force just hammered through IS forces which sought open field battles on their way to the objective.  One merc mech battalion was caught in the open and hammered by the Wolf forces.  They may have re-armed and repaired but it does not say either way.  The next battle was outside the capital at IIRC a river (Pad-somethings Crossing IIRC) which shattered the remaining defenders, probably a mix of the two remaining mech battalions and any armored formations that could get to the site.  The final battle seemed to be as the Wolf force either chased down the defenders in a rout, or took a repair moment and then pushed on again.  They smashed into the mercs the CO was trying to rally and stormed the spaceport to capture the dropships.

So were all the mercs and armored brigade destroyed to the last machine?  No . . . but they died as functional units because of the shock nature of Clan warfare at the time.  The defenders surrendered to the Wolves probably thinking they would get SW terms & ransom . . . only to be rounded up, bondsmen taken and their equipment confiscated.  Perhaps some of the armor was left on planet for peacekeeping duties and to support the garrison, but the mechs were all taken (hello Warhammer C models) with the mechwarriors either bondsmen or dispossessed to be stranded on that world.

Clan losses are rarely mentioned, but when the Clan forces DO get chewed up it is very clearly mentioned in JFSB, WCSB and ICSB- probably ER3052 but I have not looked at that in a while.  Also since Clan machines are more rugged, while the IS may have gotten mission kills they would IMO have been unlikely to core a mech.  To be honest, I think it might look something like 5-10% casualties in the Wave 1 and increase that for Wave 2 . . . and definitely increase that for when they come back after Showers died.
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rebs

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #4 on: 18 December 2018, 19:52:06 »
The phonebooks in Wolf Clan and Jade Falcon sourcebooks are less than reliable.  Characters listed as KIA (such as Erik Kerensky for example)  go on to do much in further publications (such as in era report 3067).  Kerensky isn't the only one.

While specific examples may not hold up, the frequency of KIA/WIA listings at least give an idea of spread.   

Before Tukayidd, thats up to the GM.  Who don't you like?  Bump them off at Radstadt or Orkney or Irece or Alshain.   They won't be missed. 
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Colt Ward

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #5 on: 18 December 2018, 20:10:35 »
One other way to look at it . . . the Ward Bloodhouse had the full 25 names.  We know Cyrilla was not on frontline status (age bias) and let's say a few more Wards are hanging out in the Homeworlds- so 20 took part in the Invasion.  Are 20 named in WCSB?  Dunno, it does not matter as there is some evidence units were rotated out.

Out of the theoretical 20 Wards involved in the Invasion and a maximum of 24 (Cyrilla being 25th) . . . no single Ward died in combat or was rendered crippled enough to seek bondsref through I think the 3rd Wave?
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #6 on: 18 December 2018, 20:14:58 »
The phonebooks in Wolf Clan and Jade Falcon sourcebooks are less than reliable.  Characters listed as KIA (such as Erik Kerensky for example)  go on to do much in further publications (such as in era report 3067).  Kerensky isn't the only one.

Or he simply Got Better.

It's not necessarily just a Monty Python reference; as of Tukayyid much of Clanner capability was still unknown.  We know what the ComStar personnel who ostensibly compiled the data in-universe didn't know: Clan medical science is beyond what IS analysts were used to.  Reviewing BattleRoms and mistakenly believing "He couldn't possibly have survived THAT ejection/coring..." is a rather plausible explanation for why a ComStar-designated KIA turns up alive later on.

rebs

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #7 on: 18 December 2018, 20:24:35 »
Or he simply Got Better.

It's not necessarily just a Monty Python reference; as of Tukayyid much of Clanner capability was still unknown.  We know what the ComStar personnel who ostensibly compiled the data in-universe didn't know: Clan medical science is beyond what IS analysts were used to.  Reviewing BattleRoms and mistakenly believing "He couldn't possibly have survived THAT ejection/coring..." is a rather plausible explanation for why a ComStar-designated KIA turns up alive later on.

There's a thought.  KIA might just mean his mech was disabled/destroyed under him.

One other way to look at it . . . the Ward Bloodhouse had the full 25 names.  We know Cyrilla was not on frontline status (age bias) and let's say a few more Wards are hanging out in the Homeworlds- so 20 took part in the Invasion.  Are 20 named in WCSB?  Dunno, it does not matter as there is some evidence units were rotated out.

Out of the theoretical 20 Wards involved in the Invasion and a maximum of 24 (Cyrilla being 25th) . . . no single Ward died in combat or was rendered crippled enough to seek bondsref through I think the 3rd Wave?

I've tried counting the bloodnames, and it usually comes up short.  There were galaxies left out of the invasion, so that can also account for numbers coming up short.

There were an awful lot of bloodnamed Coyote warriors taking part in the invasion with the Wolves.  At least six Kogas are in the WCSB.  Evidence of Harvest style trials before the Revival?  Or at least some agreements between the Coyotes and Wolves.

The phonebooks leave a lot to the imagination.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #8 on: 19 December 2018, 00:02:39 »
The Wolves had a Blood Spirit . . . while I realize that quite a few Wolf clusters did not participate in the Invasion most would have been secondline or PGCs.  We also have the story of Lajos, who was injured as part of a cluster that did not participate on Tukayyid, but fought Phelan in the semi-finals which is why I suggested some of the clusters were rotated.  For instance, the cluster that was gutted by the Bears in Ulric's refusal (and did a good job wrecking a whole Bear galaxy) really should not have been involved in the early waves.
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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Orwell84

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #9 on: 19 December 2018, 05:43:04 »
There's a thought.  KIA might just mean his mech was disabled/destroyed under him.

I've tried counting the bloodnames, and it usually comes up short.  There were galaxies left out of the invasion, so that can also account for numbers coming up short.

There were an awful lot of bloodnamed Coyote warriors taking part in the invasion with the Wolves.  At least six Kogas are in the WCSB.  Evidence of Harvest style trials before the Revival?  Or at least some agreements between the Coyotes and Wolves.

The phonebooks leave a lot to the imagination.

Lincoln Osis a prime example, being reported dead by ComStar who probably thought "nobody could possibly survive being crushed under a Summoner."

As to the Coyotes, the Invading Clans sourcebook notes that the Grand Council allowed each Clan to send up a Trinary with the invasion force. The Goliath Scorpion saKhan and one Star fought with the Vipers on Tukkayid, so it could be that the Coyotes fought as part of Clan Wolf's force and ComStar simply didn't notice the difference.
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Takiro

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #10 on: 19 December 2018, 06:26:40 »
Santander's World during the Periphery Wave of the Invasion by Smoke Jaguar is a good example. I believe 9 OmniMechs and a Star of Elementals were lost in the initial attack causing the Clan to break their bid annihilating Santander's Killers for their treachery. Link below;

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Santander_V#Clan_Invasion

As for phone books and other Clan Bloodnames appearing in the Invaders Touman I have postulated that their was a Crusader Harvest following the Revival Trials where warriors from other Clans wishing to partake in action in the InnerSphere made challenges similar to what we saw post Refusal War. Look at the Jaguar Touman for the best example, it is riddled with the Bloodnames of other Clans.

As for KIAs who got better Katya Kerensky went from dead (WCSB) to Loremaster eventually. Now that is quite a rise. ;)

Orwell84

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #11 on: 19 December 2018, 07:30:26 »
As for phone books and other Clan Bloodnames appearing in the Invaders Touman I have postulated that their was a Crusader Harvest following the Revival Trials where warriors from other Clans wishing to partake in action in the InnerSphere made challenges similar to what we saw post Refusal War. Look at the Jaguar Touman for the best example, it is riddled with the Bloodnames of other Clans.

Interesting thought there. Just had a look at the Jag's phone book in Invading Clans and the tally of non-Jag origin names is...

Howell (originally Snow Raven, but a shared heritage before Revival)
Ward (Wolf exclusive = Mikhail Ward was taken as abtakha just before Revival)
Myers (Goliath Scorpion exclusive = abtakha)
Hildenrath (originally Ice Hellion)
Komolosi x2 (originally Fire Mandrill)
Pryde (Jade Falcon exclusive = abtakha)

So the Scorpion at least may well have joined via harvest trial. The Hellion and Mandrill names might have been shared heritages beforehand, but warriors from those two Clans would certainly have jumped at the chance to participate.
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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #12 on: 19 December 2018, 18:23:19 »
Years ago, I went through the bloodnames in the Wolf and Falcon books.  I was probably just wandering about bloodname counts in the books.  The number of bloodnamed warriors from a Wolf house is either in the 20s (26 Tutuolas), or its 1 or 2. (If any)  This includes the names taken from Widowmakers.  (with one Mongoose star colonel, and a Furey (SJ exclusive) galaxy commander) 26 non Wolf bloodnamed warriors, with 0 Falcons.  2 from other invading clan Houses.
Falcon names don't have such a huge gap.  Lows range 1-5. Highs start at 13, more teens than 20s.  Falcons get one Wolf Feng bloodname, with none appearing in the Wolves listing.
Falcon listings have a problem of not matching their phenotype.  Benetti as an aero name has 2 bloodnamed mechwarriors. Thastus, the other aero-line, has 20 named elementals.  The Mattlov elemental line gets 9 mechwarriors, 5 pilots, and 1 elemental.
42 non Falcon bloodnamed warriors.  14 of these from other invading clan Houses.

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rebs

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #13 on: 19 December 2018, 22:06:26 »
The Mattlov line would be better officially listed as a general bloodname, rather than an elemental line. 

But at the same time I wonder at the validity of the phonebooks when information like that comes to the light of player scrutiny. 

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Hellraiser

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #14 on: 19 December 2018, 22:23:31 »
We also have the story of Lajos, who was injured as part of a cluster that did not participate on Tukayyid, but fought Phelan in the semi-finals which is why I suggested some of the clusters were rotated.  For instance, the cluster that was gutted by the Bears in Ulric's refusal (and did a good job wrecking a whole Bear galaxy) really should not have been involved in the early waves.

IIRC his cluster is not listed in the phone book (9th Guards?) and in Objective Raids we have a "Rangers" cluster in a front line galaxy that wasn't there in the Tukayyid roster which is gives evidence of at least 2 front line clusters on top of the 13 listed at Tukayyid.

It would make little sense for the Wolves, one of the largest if not largest clans, to only have 12 Front Line clusters for revival & likely had a few left in the homeworlds for all of revival or rotated back at some point as you suggested.

Also 3 Clusters is pretty small for every single galaxy (Alpha got its 4th late so not counting it).
Far more likely IMHO that those galaxies were all 3-5 clusters in size but we only see the 13 listed at Tukayyid.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #15 on: 19 December 2018, 22:58:57 »
Actually . . . it can be a matter of structure.  I had this discussion long ago with Albatross and with the phonebooks they were trying to differentiate the Clans.  Falcons had more clusters and had roughly the same number per galaxy but were mostly veteran with the Eyrie training clusters attached to the galaxy.  The Wolves had more elite clusters, and their frontline galaxies (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta) each had 3 large-ish clusters and a keshik.  They also differentiated at the time between secondline and garrison clusters- for instance Tau was secondline but the comments and transfers made it nearly frontline . . . except it had 5 clusters.  Wolf secondline and garrison galaxies seem to have five clusters before the Refusal War (Obj Raids, F&W) and the Crusader Wolves seemed to keep that structure in most cases after the Refusal War.

Very likely the Wolves kept one frontline back in the Homeworlds, especially when they sent 26 'PGCs' forward and kept them on the Exodus Road until Showers approved.  When Ulric became ilKhan he kept the Golden Keshik as his bodyguard and made Natasha Kerensky's boon of the 13th Wolf Guards a de jure keshik.  We know they had kept at least a garrison galaxy (Omega) back in the homeworlds with its five normal strength clusters.
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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #16 on: 19 December 2018, 23:27:27 »
Given that the Wolves were specifically allowed to bring more forces being granted an extra galaxy of troops..... I'm not sure that experience or even the same #s should be in consideration. 
The Wolves were supposed to have more troops & yet we see a very small # of front line clusters over all.
To me that means they should have more front line troops in the homeworlds.   But that's me.

Omega was actually in the OZ before 57.

Its listed in Objective Raids as being in the OZ & is part of those 26 garrison clusters.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #17 on: 20 December 2018, 00:00:08 »
Objective Raids galaxy listings have to be taken with a grain of salt.  FMWC had them ordered from the Home Worlds by Ulric on the Potemkin to guard the movement of the genetic repository, manufacturing station and selected portions of sibkos.  IIRC the fiction from that time backed it up.

Of course for pre-Tukayyid casualties, I think Luthien has to take the top ranking though it was a big bloody defeat.  It gutted the Jaguars IMO more than Tukayyid did even, since it laid the foundation for how the Jags did against the ComGuards.  Question is how big of a whole did it place into the command structure for officers that led to those who had not been promoted for various reasons of unsuitability now stepping up to take Star Colonel, Star Captain and Star Commander slots.
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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #18 on: 20 December 2018, 19:32:25 »
WCSB actually even omits an entire active bloodhouse. House Demos has no representation in that book, but does appear in the BoK novels along the same timeframe.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #19 on: 20 December 2018, 19:43:59 »
When I did my own search, House Demos isn't even in the Wolf list in Operation Klondike, let alone the WCSB.  As a bloodname it was somehow fogotten.   Or at least, I never could locate it in the listings.  Perhaps I overlooked it.  But it's deffinitly mentioned in BoK.
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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #20 on: 20 December 2018, 21:37:49 »
Did they even have all the bloodnames when WCSB came out?

I thought that info was only fluffed out once we got the Klondike books.

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #21 on: 21 December 2018, 00:11:00 »
When I did my own search, House Demos isn't even in the Wolf list in Operation Klondike, let alone the WCSB.  As a bloodname it was somehow fogotten.   Or at least, I never could locate it in the listings.  Perhaps I overlooked it.  But it's deffinitly mentioned in BoK.

It's mentioned in BoK, and again in MWDA. I feel like if it were any more forgotten its bloodnamed pilots should get a penalty to be hit for how elusive they are.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #22 on: 22 December 2018, 02:46:50 »
I'm so tempted to make my next clan character from house Demos now just to give it some support.
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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #23 on: 22 December 2018, 02:55:30 »
WCSB actually even omits an entire active bloodhouse. House Demos has no representation in that book, but does appear in the BoK novels along the same timeframe.

Demos is a Scorpion name.

Perhaps that is why its not in the military rosters.
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3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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SteveRestless

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Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #24 on: 22 December 2018, 11:50:43 »
Demos is a Scorpion name.

Perhaps that is why its not in the military rosters.

Huh. Explains that, somewhat. At least for REVIVAL Era instances.

Still, there's a Demos in the Wolves in the dark ages. It's a Wolf bloodname post-reavings, atleast.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Foxx Ital

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  • Still Clanilicious
Re: Clan casualties in pre-Tukayyid victories?
« Reply #25 on: 22 December 2018, 12:22:04 »
I'm so tempted to make my next clan character from house Demos now just to give it some support.

 I have a one! Also lucky enough it's missing one S and it's my real last name
Clan Ghost Bear:  We may not like you, but you're not bothering us, so you may exist.
 If your BA tactics can't be described as shenanigans, you're probably doing it wrong. ^-^ -Weirdo
 <Kojak> Yeah, there's definitely a learning curve with BA, But once you learn how to use 'em well they're addictive,heck, just look at what happened to Foxx ;-)
<Steve_Restless> its YOU who I shouldn't underestimate. I could give you a broom handle and I'd find you sitting on top of the enemy stormcrow, smug surat grin on your face