Author Topic: MotW: Thunder Hawk  (Read 29880 times)

JadeHellbringer

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MotW: Thunder Hawk
« on: 08 December 2016, 13:26:27 »



The inexorable march of the SLDF towards Terra in 2771 left an impression on that military- and that impression oftentimes was left in dents and burns. The Star League’s army was the most powerful fighting force ever assembled, but even then it had its flaws. Units that served in large numbers oftentimes were poorly equipped for the tasks at hand (see: Magi), or simply lacked the endurance to survive in the kind of rough battlefields Amaris’ coup created (King Crab). Luckily, a group called Norse-Storm came up with a solution that feels so Lyran it might as well have a mailed fist stamped on the forehead of every machine.

The Thunder Hawk (TDK series) is a big, bruising monstrosity that delivers undeniably scary firepower at long ranges, but to do so it makes some unfortunate (and unavoidable) sacrifices. The League wasn’t in a position to say ‘no’ to a new assault design almost tailor-made to break through tough defenses, but with the massive investment such a machine required in terms of technology resources and straight cash, it’s no wonder the design was soon out of production after the war ended. Norse-Storm brought the design back after the Clan invasion of 3050, however, introducing a whole new generation to the king of glass cannons.

We start by opening up a TDK-7X, the standard model in both Kerensky’s day and again to push his offspring back hundreds of years later. At 100 tons, there’s no question that this is a machine intended to dominate the battlefield, and the looks back that up. The standard TRO:3058 curved armor gives a very sleek, almost aquatic feel to the enormous machine, although one is left to wonder if the perspective of the left arm pointed at the ‘camera’ may have influenced the miniature a bit too much. A hefty and expensive 300XL engine sits in the torso, a massive expenditure in its day but absolutely necessary to accomplish the Mech’s goal. One simply cannot build a Thunder Hawk with a standard engine and still keep the performance sought. Is it worth the money and vulnerability such an engine comes with? That’s debatable.

As befitting a 100-ton crown jewel Battlemech, that curved plating is as heavy as it can get, with 19.5 tons of standard plating, making it basically as tough as the famed Atlas that narrowly preceded it into service. Unlike the Atlas, however, the Thunder Hawk’s armor is increased by its very role- intended to stay back from the fighting, less weaponry can be targeted at a properly-used Thunder Hawk by dint of its very range, which means that plating isn’t tested nearly as often. The other side of that coin, of course, is the vulnerable engine, a problem the Atlas doesn’t have to contend with. It makes for a Mech that will withstand some solid hits early, but which simply cannot be allowed to remain on the firing line for long after those first few hits- otherwise disaster is certain.

That armor WILL be tested, too, because no enemy commander will allow such a machine to survive for long. Parked in each side torso and again in the right arm are powerful Norse-Storm 7D Gauss Rifles. Yes, Virginia, that’s three fifteen-point hits flying out every turn at impressive ranges, making for a terrifying salvo. Not until the appearance of the Masakari in the Clan invasion did we again see a canon design capable of such a feat (and even then at terrifying heat cost)- this is simply the way to open up a target and make it bleed. Each rifle is backed by 16 rounds, plenty enough for most operations, while a trio of Defiance medium lasers provide a respectable punch at closer ranges where the rifles aren’t the best choice. Heat is rarely a problem here, so long as you’re mindful of the lasers now and then (and really, if you’re firing them you made a mistake anyway). There’s only the ten heat sinks in the engine, and standard models to boot, but with the Gauss salvo being as cool as they are that should be plenty.

That’s the good news, of course. The bad news is that a critical hit on a Gauss rifle will cause an explosion inside that location, and the Thunder Hawk combines that threat with the XL engine, meaning that despite that heavy armor a Thunder Hawk is dangerous to its pilot as well as the enemy. Even the right arm mount’s explosion, while likely safe from damaging the engine, will hurt the pilot severely. A Thunder Hawk that loses a significant amount of armor over any of those rifles needs to get the hell out of danger, NOW- which isn’t always a good thing, losing what is likely the most powerful machine in your arsenal at a time when you likely need it most.

Three variants exist, mostly because it’s hard to really improve on something like this- the vulnerable engine and rifles make it what it is, so changes tend to be mostly minor. The TDK-7Y is a good example, trading the four lasers for two medium pulse lasers. This allows for easier targeting of the kind of fast harassers that would bother a machine like this, but less fire put out overall. Your mileage may vary, but I prefer the 7X.

More significant is the TDK-7KMA, which drops the ten heat sinks for double-strength models. A Gauss rifle is removed (whaaaa?) in exchange for an Arrow IV missile battery (WHAAAAA?) with two tons of ammo. This is intriguing- the Thunder Hawk now fits into an artillery battery nicely, adding its own missile to the barrage, and has the ability to provide the remaining pair of rifles to defend the rest of the battery against enemy forces that get too close. This is impressive stuff, and a whole lot of fun to use for a commander that you want to hold back from the front lines.

The advent of the Lyran light fusion engine gives us a variant designed to survive the kind of damage its predecessors couldn’t. The TDK-7S had to shave weight, and did so by losing a ton of armor, two tons of ammo, and two of its lasers. Those losses aren’t fun- the ammo in particular!- but the result is the drop to a 300L engine- which means that if a side torso is lost (or just gutted by an exploding rifle), the machine can survive to hobble home for repairs. The reduced battlefield loiter time before running out of ammo is made up for then by being able to remain in the field a little longer before being disabled.

(The author would like to take a moment to lament the lack of a field upgrade involving the removal of one of the rifles in exchange for an LB-10X, giving the machine an excellent anti-aircraft weapon combined with the ability to crit-seek after the remaining two rifles do their job. Such an upgrade makes too much sense NOT to have out there somewhere, and even saves several tons for new and entertaining ideas)

There’s no question that a Thunder Hawk is one of the most dangerous ground machines in Battletech, bipedal or otherwise. A trio of Gauss per turn is the kind of thing you want opening a hole in the enemy’s forces! However, for all its respectable power, the Hawk is surprisingly easy to disable with a lucky crit (especially if the floating crit rule is in play!), and its power means that its enemy is almost certainly going to throw everything possible at it to get rid of it before the rifles do too much damage. The result is a unit that is walking death for the first few turns of a standard engagement, and likely forced to withdraw before too long- or is left in a smoldering heap. The author honestly isn’t a fan of the design as a result- its firepower and range just don’t make up for the massive cost (money, BV, whatever measurement you use) and vulnerability.

You, however may love the Thunder Hawk- or at least respect it. Probably have stories from using them, facing them, fleeing from them, etc.? You really should tell those stories, because that’s what we’re here for. Get to it, folks!
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #1 on: 08 December 2016, 14:32:48 »
There’s only the ten heat sinks in the engine, and standard models to boot, but with the Gauss salvo being as cool as they are that should be plenty.


I found a draft of the Thunderhawk from the FASA treasure trove of documents and at one point it did have double heatsinks. Apparently this was lost in editing or someone decided to leave it with a little more vulnerability.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #2 on: 08 December 2016, 14:55:37 »
Triple SB Gauss version when? O:-)
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #3 on: 08 December 2016, 14:59:55 »
I once saw a guy refuse to take a full Star of Dire Wolves out of hiding and into the fight, all because there was no way for him to get back under cover without first spending one turn in the open, at the outer edge of long range of a single Thunder Hawk and Devastator.

This would have been a lit funnier had he not been on my side, and our forces suffering mightily for the lack of all that firepower. [face palm]
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #4 on: 08 December 2016, 15:25:07 »
I once saw a guy refuse to take a full Star of Dire Wolves out of hiding and into the fight, all because there was no way for him to get back under cover without first spending one turn in the open, at the outer edge of long range of a single Thunder Hawk and Devastator.

This would have been a lit funnier had he not been on my side, and our forces suffering mightily for the lack of all that firepower. [face palm]

I wanted to avoid the T-Hawk/Devastator comparison so as to avoid derailing, but... yeah, there's no comparison to be had. The DVS loses a slight bit of range on the PPC switch, but gains two of them for one missing a Gauss, which means more damage. More importantly (to the author's sense of survival) is that the rifles have been moved to the arms, with the PPCs remaining in the side torsos. That means a crit on a rifle no longer means "welp, goodnight" due to the XL motor the way it does on a T-Hawk. That's huge- it means that gigantic investment a 100-ton assault Mech creates is no longer quite as vulnerable to an easy loss as it was.

If you get to pick one or the other, you keep that Devastator. You're far more likely to have it come home. That said, it does suffer the same problem the Thunder Hawk does- your opponent cannot and will not allow it to survive any longer than they absolutely have to, so it WILL get pummeled early and often if your opponent has any kind of tactical sense. Just more likely to last a little longer, at the cost of a slight loss of main battery range.
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Empyrus

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #5 on: 08 December 2016, 15:41:04 »
As with most TRO 3058 'Mechs, i don't care one bit for the Thunder Hawk. Ugly, and i dislike the idea of cramming triple Gauss into a 'Mech. I don't see that very useful either, would prefer more flexibility, and the T-Hawk has issues with survivability and endurance. Oh, it certainly is powerful but... meh. EDIT Actually, that endurance isn't necessarily an issue... as noted, the 'Mech is powerful enough it will attract so much fire extra ammo probably wouldn't be terribly important.
(And for the Clans, i like the concept even less. The Clan Gauss rifle is kinda unimpressive next to their ER PPC...)

For a multi-Gauss assault platform, if i had to take one, i'd probably go for a Pillager, with its jump jets and heavier secondary armament it is a bit more flexible (though it too has some issues with survivability, at least in its basic form...).
(The Galahad is probably the only IS multi-Gauss platform i really like. Standard Gauss, that is, not heavy or light.)
« Last Edit: 08 December 2016, 15:45:49 by Empyrus »

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #6 on: 08 December 2016, 15:47:33 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-saQlMmTo4

I like the Thunderhawk for the same reason people love the Gausszilla, hitting a target with 3 Gauss rounds at a time is a thing of pure joy.

You have your choice of zombies if your looking for survivalist, the Awesome always makes it to the top of my list but the Thuderhawk comes with power and range that few IS mechs can match. Play it like a tank destroyer, call it in only when you need something to die fast.       
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #7 on: 08 December 2016, 16:05:31 »
Best partner for a Thunder Hawk? A Jagermech.

Seriously.

The JM6-DG.

Nothing protects a glass cannon like a mylar cannon.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #8 on: 08 December 2016, 16:16:53 »
Best partner for a Thunder Hawk? A Jagermech.

Seriously.

The JM6-DG.

Nothing protects a glass cannon like a mylar cannon.

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Whats better than 3X Gauss Rifles? 5X Gauss Rifles! :D
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #9 on: 08 December 2016, 16:21:06 »
It was more about "Hit the Jagermech first!" ;)
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #10 on: 08 December 2016, 16:32:41 »
 ;D Very true but it would make for a very satisfying convergence of fire before it dies. 
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #11 on: 08 December 2016, 16:35:14 »
I want to face of against that pairing with a single original-spec JES-1 loaded with a mix of Infernos and TCs. I just want to know which side's warriors will be more terrified.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #12 on: 08 December 2016, 16:43:33 »
I want to face of against that pairing with a single original-spec JES-1 loaded with a mix of Infernos and TCs. I just want to know which side's warriors will be more terrified.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #13 on: 08 December 2016, 16:52:13 »
C'mon, we just need a 12 or two before his machine restarts....
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #14 on: 08 December 2016, 16:55:20 »
(The Galahad is probably the only IS multi-Gauss platform i really like. Standard Gauss, that is, not heavy or light.)

Okay, so I'm curious, what is your favorite?

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #15 on: 08 December 2016, 17:18:54 »
Okay, so I'm curious, what is your favorite?

Of twin-standard Gauss platforms? Or of Gauss Rifles?
Of former, the Galahad, probably, as i said. That said, i usually prefer to wield only one Gauss and carry other weapons. For 100-ton assaults, the Atlas S3 is good with twin PPCs, LRM-15 and a Gauss.

Of Gauss Rifles... Good question.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #16 on: 08 December 2016, 18:01:42 »
The T-Hawk is why I value the light gauss rifle.  That 45-point Salvo isn't so scary when I'm raining hits on you from outside your max range.  Hawk pilots tend to play turret tech, so forcing them into mobility with a superior - range counter-engagement weapon is a great way to make them play your game instead of theirs.  Also, infantry.  They're pisspoor against infantry, so swamp them with grunts.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #17 on: 08 December 2016, 18:05:51 »
The Thunder Hawk is a classic example of minmaxing: Cram as many Gauss Rifles as you can into a chassis and hope for headshots. Is that why you don't like it, Empyrus?

I personally don't think it's a bad thing, but designs like the Thunder Hawk IMHO counters the point that some folks make about no homebrew designs at their table because "They're all about minmaxing": Minmaxed stuff already exists for people to use. This, the Hellstar, the Alacorn, the Yasha, the Devastator, the Black Viper, and over a dozen more designs which are optimized and freely available for any munchkin to use.

The fear of minmaxing leads players to pull some seriously cognitive dissonant stunts like pretend that you can't refit designs with DHS, that players should ONLY be able to use the listed configurations of Omnimechs, and try their valiant best to ignore the dozens of examples that in-universe fiction and gameplay gives us of weapon swaps and other refits being commonplace and available to anyone with an okay tech and some time.


Now, in any other game, it'd be a valid complaint to say "limit designs to what are in the books" because unit design rules in games like Warhammer 40k and Warmachine are black-boxes, but in Battletech the design rules are a core part of the damn game. So why perform the rules equivalent of cutting off your arm for fear of a pinkie being infected?

It still confounds me. Even years after moving to Alpha Strike where it's a moot point whether or not a Shadowhawk can swap its crappy AC/5 for a Large Laser and some HS, it's an attitude that I simply don't understand.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #18 on: 08 December 2016, 18:22:21 »
It is min-maxed but it isn't a great example (no CASE, Gauss hugging XLFE), but that isn't really why i don't like it, i do like the Hellstar to an extent after all.
The simple truth is lacks the right feel... and this affects many TRO3058 units. A combination of art and stats that simply do not appeal to me, the Bushwacker, IS Omnis and some others aside.

That said, i'm not a fan of turret-tech either, though i'm not opposed to having some of that. Like the Galahad, but then the Galahad is also slow and comparatively weak since it is but a 60-tonner, somehow that makes it more acceptable in my eyes (though i don't generally speaking like 3/5 heavies...).
For (Inner Sphere) 100-ton assaults, i prefer either brutal close combatant like the King Crab or Fafnir, or flexible designs like the Atlas K (even without double heat sinks), S2/S3, Atlas II or Atlas III offer.

EDIT About customization and min-maxed designs... To be honest, i think min-maxed designs should not exists in TROs, especially those that are min-maxed in-universe as well (eg the Thunder Hawk can be seen as the ultimate anti-'Mech 'Mech, though obviously its min-maxing leads to several weaknesses)! Unfortunately they do exist and time can't be rolled back...
I certainly would prefer to avoid even more of them, at least for common games. (A game dedicated for min-maxing? Sure, why not.) If you want to bring a Thunder Hawk to a game, fine, it is official design, not really interested in your UberHawk though.

While i do design a lot of custom designs, i actually have zero interest in playing with them or against custom units, beyond scenarios. Perhaps personalized "commander" units are OK but nothing more than that.

I prefer to play the game as "you got what you got, make the best of them".
« Last Edit: 08 December 2016, 18:35:52 by Empyrus »

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #19 on: 08 December 2016, 18:24:44 »
Stand-off weapons and a speed that makes not moving seem really attractive are my major issues with it.  The only reason these things get used as much by players as they do is artillery isn't an automatic inclusion in games.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #20 on: 09 December 2016, 07:20:44 »
Ahh the Thundercheese!  A great review of a terrifying yet oddly fragile machine, all it takes is Mr Sod and Murphy of law to look at a torso and a floating crit and your 100 tonner is doomed.  Of course to fit that firepower she NEEDS an XL engine. 
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #21 on: 09 December 2016, 08:18:35 »
Of course to fit that firepower she NEEDS an XL engine.
No it doesn't. 200-rated standard engine is actually lighter, allowing for CASEd side torsos and an extra ton of ammo.
And if we use double heat sinks too, we can crit-pad the torsos with those doubles once some of ammo is moved to legs.
Since it is turret-tech, all it needs is strategic mobility and 2/3 movement is enough for that...

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #22 on: 09 December 2016, 08:36:55 »
I wonder if some crazy Free Worlder captured one of these and swapped in three Light Gauss Rifles and a PPC?
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #23 on: 09 December 2016, 08:39:50 »
You mean a (ER) large laser?

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #24 on: 09 December 2016, 09:12:25 »
Standing alone, the Thunderhawk is pretty vulnerable. But part of a well thought out unit it can be a great teammate. I just wish the KMA had a little more ammo for the Arrow IV. We had a scenario where Jon "Potter" Peters had a lance (which became cannonized as Potter's Pounders) with a Thunderhawk, Devestator, Stalker and some other assault 'Mech. Sure, you could close and take out the T-Hawk somewhat quickly, but no one wanted to weather that storm of damage, it created a bubble of fear. It isn't like an LRM beast where you can snuggle in close and ignore the weapons because the Gausses at point blank are still firing with medium range numbers plus there's a 40 point kick there. Like many an assault 'Mech, you can get away from it, move around it, but if it's where you need to be it becomes a huge asset.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #25 on: 09 December 2016, 12:08:34 »
This was my baby for like 8 *(real) years of continuous campaign from 3058 to 3067.
Being said, this was mix RPG (using MechWarrior 3 RPG rules) and BattleTech Revised.

I truly appreciate the mech, though my character (being exComGuard) usually operated from the back of the battlefield and would seldom be advance forward to far due to the vulnerability of the Hawk's XL engine and lack of speed to maneuver.  My edge (redo or luck) saved my mech many a time from exploding due to a crit to a Gauss rifle.

One thing about a TDK-7X, its a great extended campaign machine. Such as when you have to do a continuous missions back to back type sorties, where resupply is difficult.  Its easier to conserve your shots you need when things go bad. Like going to Huntress  :P

An interesting field refit during the campaign i was when i needed to have a replace Gauss Rifle with AC/10.  Due to shortage of Gauss Rifles (it was a crit, not the explosive kind that got it.)  It certainly was nice change no having minimum for all my guns and reinforce my barely usable 3 mediums. 

TDK-7S is my least liked machine.  Despite it having Light Engine, the machine has limited use beyond normal encounter in campaign setting or causal pick up. It's way to easy to eventually breeze through your ammo with that machine. Light engine does allow you to keep going despite half your heat engine being gone, however i rather have the additional fire power. 

The standard Thunder Hawk is a very good for campaign, or nice assault.  Its tough mech to have to continually be using due to its vulnerabilities.

A funny example was when I was doing a planetary assault with my ThunderHawk, we were landing on the board (normal BattleTech map with the forest cover near middle and water.)  During the landing phase you can't fire, however i was going to land in cover for my turn of not firing.  As i landed in center of wooded area, i accidentally DFA'ed a Phoenix Hawk hidden in the woods.  Needless to say the Phoenix Hawk didn't make it.   ;D  However, the 2 platoons (lances) of Assault Tanks reacted as it was a ambush (which it was) took my XL engine rather quickly.  :-\ ;D

Thanks for great and informative Article, JadeHellbringer!
« Last Edit: 09 December 2016, 13:17:35 by Wrangler »
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #26 on: 09 December 2016, 13:09:05 »
Ran a pair of these body guarded with a pair of Thugs and supported with a pair of Grand Crusaders in the Battle for Terra. It served admirably as a siege unit.  Had we continued the WoB campaign, I was drooling at the thought of dropping the medium lasers for a improved C3 rig. 
« Last Edit: 09 December 2016, 13:10:42 by Darkwing »
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #27 on: 09 December 2016, 13:24:13 »
If I'm reading this right, it's basically the same threat as the Alacorn tank in a 'Mech-shaped package, right? Three Gauss Rifles pointed your way is a definite pants-wetter, no matter what package is carrying it. Either way, strap yourself in and prepare for a lot of pain when trying to take it down, and Blake preserve you if it has friends...

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #28 on: 09 December 2016, 13:28:09 »
I wonder if some crazy Free Worlder captured one of these and swapped in three Light Gauss Rifles and a PPC?

I would say this was crazy if it wasn't for the Awesome 11R...

An interesting field refit during the campaign i was when i needed to have a replace Gauss Rifle with AC/10.  Due to shortage of Gauss Rifles (it was a crit, not the explosive kind that got it.)  It certainly was nice change no having minimum for all my guns and reinforce my barely usable 3 mediums. 

I really like this idea
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #29 on: 09 December 2016, 13:33:44 »
I consider it a good writeup when the article sparks debate, so... good job.

So it may be a munchkin-Mech but as iamfanboy says, its all part of the game. Making stupid design choices is every bit as rankling, possibly even moreso. In this case, the explodey torsos and relative rarity balances out the munch; one ought not to expect more than one example in a single company of Mechs.

The Thunder Hawk IMHO is more of a direct fire support role than a generalist, though it can certainly serve as one too. Its the third Gauss rifle that clinches it. Mechs like the Devastator, Gunslinger and Pillager are more generalist than fire support because it is a genuine waste to use them merely to shoot two Gauss slugs downrange.

To make a start on defeating one, I think try two medium Mechs, or three sturdy Lights, go wide, and force the T-Hawk to split fire while taking it, always endeavouring to flank and backstab. Don't rely on closing frontally because those Gausses have quite low minimum range... unless you're also an Assault Mech, in which case charge in close and try to bring more guns to bear on those explodey bits. You're "only" tanking 30 points on average, par for the Assault course, suck it up and bring the pain to him.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #30 on: 09 December 2016, 13:49:38 »
More significant is the TDK-7KMA, which drops the ten heat sinks for double-strength models. A Gauss rifle is removed (whaaaa?) in exchange for an Arrow IV missile battery (WHAAAAA?) with two tons of ammo. This is intriguing- the Thunder Hawk now fits into an artillery battery nicely, adding its own missile to the barrage, and has the ability to provide the remaining pair of rifles to defend the rest of the battery against enemy forces that get too close. This is impressive stuff, and a whole lot of fun to use for a commander that you want to hold back from the front lines.

I love using this variant.  I had one in a game where an opponent decided to group all six of his Purifier teams up together.  One Arrow IV missile later, he was completely out of BA.

Quote
(The author would like to take a moment to lament the lack of a field upgrade involving the removal of one of the rifles in exchange for an LB-10X, giving the machine an excellent anti-aircraft weapon combined with the ability to crit-seek after the remaining two rifles do their job. Such an upgrade makes too much sense NOT to have out there somewhere, and even saves several tons for new and entertaining ideas)

Have you ever seen what a T-Hawk does when it teams up with an Emperor or NSR-9FC?
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #31 on: 09 December 2016, 14:59:07 »
I've seen a KMA version team up with Heavy Gauss Rifle packing Stalker and Atlas during a Battle of Tharkad City.   It was hilarious that the Arrow IV from the Hawk landed square on Peter taking him out..as in dead!  ;D
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #32 on: 09 December 2016, 22:48:26 »
Of twin-standard Gauss platforms? Or of Gauss Rifles?
Of former, the Galahad, probably, as i said. That said, i usually prefer to wield only one Gauss and carry other weapons. For 100-ton assaults, the Atlas S3 is good with twin PPCs, LRM-15 and a Gauss.

Of Gauss Rifles... Good question.
No I meant, what are your favorite non-standard Gauss Rifle platforms? And to back it up, what is your favorite non-standard Gauss Rifle?
I've never ventured far enough into the timeline to really mess with them. All I know I read in the rules and from your(plural) opinions.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #33 on: 10 December 2016, 02:40:11 »
The handful of times I've had a Thunder Hawk I've played high risk/high reward strategies such as moving it into optimum  range and endlessly plugging away with the Gauss, sometimes regardless of the numbers.

And it's paid off, though usually at the cost of the Thunder Hawk. Since that usually means a few turns with enemy firepower focused on the Thunder Hawk it has paid off in other ways, though I'm not sure it's an entiely wise strategy overall.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #34 on: 11 December 2016, 12:29:35 »
No I meant, what are your favorite non-standard Gauss Rifle platforms? And to back it up, what is your favorite non-standard Gauss Rifle?
I've never ventured far enough into the timeline to really mess with them. All I know I read in the rules and from your(plural) opinions.

This is not really the right thread for that conversation.  Maybe start a "Tell Me About..." thread here or even up in Ground Combat.

As for the Thunder Hawk itself, it's basically three Gauss rifles with armor and some leg actuators bolted on under the engine.  Personally, if I need that kind of thing, I lean more toward the Alacorn (I wrote Vehicle of the Week for a long time, guys, of course I like the tank) or a dual-Gauss 'Mech like the Devastator or Pillager that's less explodium.  Gauss Demolishers are also a good cheap choice if you're willing to drop a Gauss rifle.

My thoughts on SHS go exactly the same place they go on the Omega, although the Thunder Hawk has somewhat more excuse given the lower incidence of Infernos and other, more esoteric sorts of heat input at the time.    The Arrow IV variant doesn't do much for me.  I prefer my artillery specialized instead of tying up one of my more powerful combat platforms lugging it around although a couple of those 'Mechs would be one of those wonderful surprises for artillery-hunting lances everyone should arrange sometime.  It would also economize a bit on defensive escorts for the artillery battery.
« Last Edit: 11 December 2016, 12:47:12 by Moonsword »

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #35 on: 11 December 2016, 14:00:17 »
Thunder Hawk can still cross hindering terrain easier than the Alacorn but both do serve the same purpose: bring as much Gauss Rifle as possible to the battle field. It's not a Awesome, it's a mech you team up with a Awesome to make Awesome's job easier. 

This topic has made me ask why haven't we seen non-Gauss Thunder Hawk other than Arrow IV variant but seeing the Pillager and Devastators name dropped so many times me why. We already have mech platforms that carry a mix of ACs, PPC and Gauss, the Thunder Hawk has a niche of most Gauss Rifles unless you want to get really crazy like the Gausszilla or Rifleman III.     
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #36 on: 11 December 2016, 14:51:05 »
The Thunder Hawk straddles the line between "sane Gauss" and "crazy Gauss" for IS hardware.  You may be able to squeeze more Gauss rifles onto a single IS BattleMech but you won't do it without doing something on the nutty side.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #37 on: 11 December 2016, 15:11:52 »
I do like JHB's idea of replacing a single Rifle with a LB-10X so it can crit-seek its own holes.

The Thunderhawk for me has a Clan bidding story . . . way back in the first FGC, I challenged a Ghost Bear player to . . . I think it was a Trial of Grievance, augmented (since non-augmented would be hard to do).  I said I would use one mech and the BV . . . he set the circle as a single map sheet and met me with enough Elementals to match or be a bit below the BV.  It got ugly, every time I connected with a Gauss Rifle of course the Elemental died (in a squishsy smear in my mind) but instead of facing a single point at a time I started facing groups.  While I tried to keep the range open the 'pack' of Elementals eventually swarmed (not literally) the Thunderhawk which was reduced to scrap.

It ended my string of Trial victories and so far was the only Trial like that I lost.

Thunderhawks epitomize to me the whole mech-killing loud out a lot of players go for when they do not have to face combined arms or fight on postage stamps- Get the weapons that do the most damage in a hit and crowd on.  I love to kill these things with Harassers, Piranhas, Fire Moth Hs, Cavalry VTOLs or cERLL & ATM equipped fast mechs.

I do wonder if part of Hellbie's hate is due to Adam Steiner using the Thunderhawk; it and other Lyran piloted machines have reduced quite a few Falcons to squishy lumps of meat.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #38 on: 11 December 2016, 20:34:54 »
I do wonder if part of Hellbie's hate is due to Adam Steiner using the Thunderhawk; it and other Lyran piloted machines have reduced quite a few Falcons to squishy lumps of meat.

When it comes to these articles I turn off any faction-oriented love/hate and try to view the machine from a neutral perspective. I'll point out that none of the three units I've designed for books are used by the Jade Falcons at all, and in fact two are used by factions the Falcons openly despise. Please don't paint me with that brush- I'm a Battletech player and analyst first, and a Falcon player a very, very distant second. People who take their faction that seriously are the kind I avoid gaming with.

To be honest I forgot Adam Steiner ever drove one of these, I always think of him in the Axeman or Awesome- that he later drove this and lived says a lot about his ability to survive against the odds.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #39 on: 11 December 2016, 21:29:15 »
I figured you'd have been happy since he shot Victor in the face with one.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #40 on: 11 December 2016, 22:16:10 »
Think Adam in the Thunderhawk was is the equivalent of the MWO player The B33F in his Boomaphact, his aim is good enough to justify a 3X Gauss platform. 
 
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #41 on: 11 December 2016, 22:26:14 »
I wanted to avoid the T-Hawk/Devastator comparison so as to avoid derailing, but... yeah, there's no comparison to be had. The DVS loses a slight bit of range on the PPC switch, but gains two of them for one missing a Gauss, which means more damage. More importantly (to the author's sense of survival) is that the rifles have been moved to the arms, with the PPCs remaining in the side torsos. That means a crit on a rifle no longer means "welp, goodnight" due to the XL motor the way it does on a T-Hawk. That's huge- it means that gigantic investment a 100-ton assault Mech creates is no longer quite as vulnerable to an easy loss as it was.

If you get to pick one or the other, you keep that Devastator. You're far more likely to have it come home. That said, it does suffer the same problem the Thunder Hawk does- your opponent cannot and will not allow it to survive any longer than they absolutely have to, so it WILL get pummeled early and often if your opponent has any kind of tactical sense. Just more likely to last a little longer, at the cost of a slight loss of main battery range.
As with most TRO 3058 'Mechs, i don't care one bit for the Thunder Hawk. Ugly, and i dislike the idea of cramming triple Gauss into a 'Mech. I don't see that very useful either, would prefer more flexibility, and the T-Hawk has issues with survivability and endurance. Oh, it certainly is powerful but... meh. EDIT Actually, that endurance isn't necessarily an issue... as noted, the 'Mech is powerful enough it will attract so much fire extra ammo probably wouldn't be terribly important.(And for the Clans, i like the concept even less. The Clan Gauss rifle is kinda unimpressive next to their ER PPC...)For a multi-Gauss assault platform, if i had to take one, i'd probably go for a Pillager, with its jump jets and heavier secondary armament it is a bit more flexible (though it too has some issues with survivability, at least in its basic form...). (The Galahad is probably the only IS multi-Gauss platform i really like. Standard Gauss, that is, not heavy or light.)


As long as we can all agree that the Cerberus is the *worst* of the multi-gauss assault mechs.
  [face palm]
« Last Edit: 11 December 2016, 23:10:24 by Arkansas Warrior »
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #42 on: 11 December 2016, 22:33:10 »
The Cerberus isn't a Battlemech.

It's a creative way of killing off your subordinates without being obvious about it.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #43 on: 12 December 2016, 00:10:06 »
When it comes to these articles I turn off any faction-oriented love/hate and try to view the machine from a neutral perspective. I'll point out that none of the three units I've designed for books are used by the Jade Falcons at all, and in fact two are used by factions the Falcons openly despise. Please don't paint me with that brush- I'm a Battletech player and analyst first, and a Falcon player a very, very distant second. People who take their faction that seriously are the kind I avoid gaming with.

To be honest I forgot Adam Steiner ever drove one of these, I always think of him in the Axeman or Awesome- that he later drove this and lived says a lot about his ability to survive against the odds.

Sorry it was meant as a light hearted joke which the medium does not communicate it very well.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #44 on: 12 December 2016, 07:27:53 »
Adam Steiner would have schooled Victor Steiner-Davion if weren't for that 1960s Fiat 500 that the Author loaded into Thunder Hawk's ammo bay.  That thing just bounced off Victor's Daishi's head instead instakilling Victor like a normal gauss rifle hit would have.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #45 on: 12 December 2016, 08:32:56 »
Timeout.  That scene in Patriots & Thrants has grown into something of a legend, but if anything, it's the opposite of how it's usually portrayed.  Adam's gauss round hits Prometheus in the shoulder and ricochets into the head.  We don't have a mechanic for that on the tabletop.  In the board game, Adam has a winged Dire Wolf still bearing down on him.  In the fiction, he took out the most powerful mech on the field by shooting it in the arm and getting a lucky bounce.  If there's fiat there, it's on Adam's side.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #46 on: 12 December 2016, 09:21:21 »
I do like JHB's idea of replacing a single Rifle with a LB-10X so it can crit-seek its own holes.

Someone earlier suggested a Silver Bullet Gauss refit for one of the guns, sort of like a Lyran Carronade (see TRO3145FWL). That might be better b/c range brackets are similar across the two weapons.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #47 on: 12 December 2016, 09:56:53 »
Timeout.  That scene in Patriots & Thrants has grown into something of a legend, but if anything, it's the opposite of how it's usually portrayed.  Adam's gauss round hits Prometheus in the shoulder and ricochets into the head.  We don't have a mechanic for that on the tabletop.  In the board game, Adam has a winged Dire Wolf still bearing down on him.  In the fiction, he took out the most powerful mech on the field by shooting it in the arm and getting a lucky bounce.  If there's fiat there, it's on Adam's side.

Actually I thought that was addressed as a glancing blow type hit from TacOps, but since I do not play with that rule I cannot truely say.

mbear, as for the LBX vs SB Gauss . . . the LBX IMO would be a better choice because while it may not match the weight differential lets you put more Gauss ammo back into the design.  Or perhaps if the LBX is placed in the side torso opposite the GR arm & 3100+ you can put in CASE II in the other side to keep a Gauss crit from becoming a kill rather than a mission kill.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #48 on: 12 December 2016, 13:03:47 »
When TacOps was first released, several people on the boards commented that the glancing blow rules reminded them of that scene.  And given the I Am Jade Falcon maneuver also in the book, the writers were obviously looking to the novels for inspiration.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #49 on: 12 December 2016, 14:00:16 »
Thought Glancing Blow went back to maxTech
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #50 on: 13 December 2016, 00:20:08 »
Someone earlier suggested a Silver Bullet Gauss refit for one of the guns, sort of like a Lyran Carronade (see TRO3145FWL). That might be better b/c range brackets are similar across the two weapons.
That would make the most sense and would seem the most straight forward.  W/o using Tac Ops, fitting 2 LB-5X is also an option.  It certainly doesn't solve the issue of ammo explosions.  On the other hand it means you don't have to close as much range as the LB-10X either.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #51 on: 13 December 2016, 09:52:02 »
Well, its 1 or 2 explosive crits rather than all the ones for a Gauss Rifle.  The other thing is what you are going to want to crit is likely going to be pushing in on the Thunderhawk, so they Rifles will get 1 or 2 turns to put holes in the attacker before entering LB-10X range.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #52 on: 15 December 2016, 13:55:50 »
The Cerberus isn't a Battlemech.

It's a creative way of killing off your subordinates without being obvious about it.

The Cerberus is a heavy mech that got a bit too intimate with the dessert trolley.  If you dump the superfluous junk you can basically build the same mech on 75 tons...

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #53 on: 17 December 2016, 12:32:48 »
Ahh the Thundercheese!  A great review of a terrifying yet oddly fragile machine, all it takes is Mr Sod and Murphy of law to look at a torso and a floating crit and your 100 tonner is doomed.  Of course to fit that firepower she NEEDS an XL engine.

Yes, a more expensive version, but longer ranged version of the Harasser, but for when your only want to give a single subordinate an expensive Darwin Award.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #54 on: 17 December 2016, 15:59:52 »
The Cerberus is a heavy mech that got a bit too intimate with the dessert trolley.  If you dump the superfluous junk you can basically build the same mech on 75 tons...

If you look at the Carronnade, that's basically what they did on a 70 tonner with the minor detail that one of the Gauss rifles is an SB instead of a stock model.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #55 on: 17 December 2016, 17:00:45 »
Are we still talking about the T-Hawk here?  ???
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #56 on: 17 December 2016, 18:56:05 »
Are we still talking about the T-Hawk here?  ???

Fair point.

So, the T-hawk...  It's pretty dull to be honest.  It commands respect because it's indisputably effective for as long as the armour holds out, but it's not all that difficult to take out.  Locally we almost always play with the optional rule that makes the pilot skill roll to stay upright harder the more damage you take.  A T-hawk is absolutely the kind of target that can expect to get every single gun in the enemy force pointed at it until it dead, so they seem to spend a lot of time on the flat of their backs from my experience...

Generally speaking I'd rather have an Alacorn - they can't fall over, and I can have almost three Alacorns for the price of two T-Hawks, either in c-bills or bv...

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #57 on: 17 December 2016, 18:58:58 »
I think we needed a 3145 update to the old 7X . . . maybe a SB Gauss but I am not sure- maybe a HAG?  It can sport LFF armor and have crits left, frees up a ton.  By that time the DHS should be plentiful so it should have those and the MLs should be ERMLs.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #58 on: 17 December 2016, 21:45:41 »
I know it's been done with other designs but a Gauss + PPC combo would free up tonnage without loosing much in range, might make the Light Engine more accommodating. 
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #59 on: 17 December 2016, 22:17:26 »
Just imagine if they'd done factional versions of these like the Emperor; the Marik one with LGRs and ERMLs, the Davion one with triple RACs and (somehow) a TC, the Liao one with Stealth armor, the Kurita one with loads of MRMs and C3...
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #60 on: 18 December 2016, 14:20:12 »
Double RAC-5s, not three.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #61 on: 18 December 2016, 15:14:37 »
I think AW meant that a Davion-themed Thunder Hawk would have triple RACs, thematically similar to the double RAC Emperor.

As to the Thunder Hawk, the IS's other options for that level of head-choppiness that I could find (outside of buying Hellstars) are the Templar I and the Thug -13K, and both "cheat" with HPPCs.

EDIT: Getz below helpfully pointed out the Marauder II-4K as well.
« Last Edit: 18 December 2016, 18:42:20 by misterpants »
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #62 on: 18 December 2016, 16:08:58 »
Triple AC/10s would be interesting.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #63 on: 18 December 2016, 16:39:07 »
Triple AC/10s would be interesting.
I was thinking the same thing, Triple LB-10Xs should make for a fun game.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #64 on: 18 December 2016, 18:31:25 »
I think AW meant that a Davion-themed Thunder Hawk would have triple RACs, thematically similar to the double RAC Emperor.

As to the Thunder Hawk, the IS's other options for that level of head-choppiness that I could find (outside of buying Hellstars) are the Templar I and the Thug -13K, and both "cheat" with HPPCs.

There's a Marauder II with dual HPPCs and a Gauss rifle - and I think a Light engine into the bargain.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #65 on: 18 December 2016, 18:52:56 »
I was thinking the same thing, Triple LB-10Xs should make for a fun game.
I'd go the whole hog and opt for triple SBGRs. All about the crits!

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #66 on: 18 December 2016, 19:57:11 »
I'd go the whole hog and opt for triple SBGRs. All about the crits!
Was thinking LB-10Xs because I can select ammo and I really like punching holes before using buck shot but the SBG does retain that lovely range.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #67 on: 18 December 2016, 21:31:20 »
Was thinking LB-10Xs because I can select ammo and I really like punching holes before using buck shot but the SBG does retain that lovely range.
investing in a 3rd Gauss puts the Thawk firmly in the direct fire support role IMHO. So stay sniper, double down on the SBGRs, and put out more potential plinkage than even a Clan Kraken ;)

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #68 on: 18 December 2016, 22:23:40 »
All for a SBG variant but if your looking for 'less explody,' a 3X LB-10X would be less volatile and save enough weight that you wouldn't need to sacrifice so much for a Light Engine like the 7S. While it wouldn't be the same as scary as any 3X Gauss TH, it would be close to Annihilator scary.   
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #69 on: 18 December 2016, 22:53:59 »
If there was really going to be a Dark Age variant, I'd like to see some effort to fit CASE II on the mech.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #70 on: 18 December 2016, 23:39:02 »
dark age upgrade.. Clan Guass, Case II, and any leftover mass going to either better backup guns or better protection.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #71 on: 19 December 2016, 00:32:33 »
I was playing with Solaris Skunkworks.  Both the AC/10 (Clan Invasion) variant and the Silver Gauss (Dark) versions fit like glove.

Both version i added normal case to the design while increasing heat sinks to 19 for the AC/10 version, while count to 10 but making them Double Heat Sinks since heat issues would be pretty bad.  I didn't mess with improving the machine's speed however AC/10 version i made had plenty of ammo to switch out specialty AC/10 rounds out if need be.   While AC/10 makes it true general combatant, not great one.  Silver Gauss version become anti-combine arms infantry/vehicle killer thou it would be more guard unit due to it's 3/5 speed.

It's too bad the Thunder Hawk didn't make it into TRO3150's update of old designs. 
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #72 on: 10 January 2017, 09:25:46 »
I've had good luck with the Thunder Hawk when I take it for a spin and don't generally have the issues that are there with the design and are brought up by the OP.  It's one of those feast or famine 'mechs.  You either slaughter your opponents or you go out with a whimper (with a few gauss slugs making your opponent sweat) and a side torso explosion.  For all of it's flaws and weaknesses, it always seems I have to slug through someones armor though when I've fought against it.  How it goes I guess.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #73 on: 27 April 2019, 13:08:16 »
'Royal Command' wasn't a thing when 3058 came out. But looking at the 3* gauss and XL engine, does anyone else think that the Thunderhawk should be retconed as a royal mech?

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #74 on: 27 April 2019, 14:31:15 »
Most of the Star League mechs from 3058 were probably assigned to Royal units.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #75 on: 28 April 2019, 01:56:12 »
The Thunder Hawk to me has always been a case of

"Do you see that Mech over there?"
"Yes Sir."
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And yeah the 3058 SLDF mechs would have probably been the exclusive property of Royal Units.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #76 on: 28 April 2019, 09:05:40 »
Per MUL, the Thunder Hawk is a regular 'Mech as well as a Royal.

This can be chalked up to its late introduction date, 2771. By this time, the Star League had few unique technologies, basically everything the Thunder Hawk has is available to other Houses in some form. Not to mention the whole Amaris Civil War, which would've thrown a wrench in the whole Royal and regular separation.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #77 on: 28 April 2019, 09:52:48 »
It's hard to improve perfection SLDF thinks of it being the Awesome of the Gauss Rifles fire support Mechs.

If Lyran Commonwealth was so messed up by the Clans smashing through it (Jade Falcons i'm looking at you) or rebelliousness toads of the Commonwealth's royal court or worse bankruptcy caused by backing ComStar's flagging finances.

I'd thought the LCAF would be dumping money in shorting up it's big stompy Mechs like Thunder Hawk and add new new technology into it.   I was still disappointed that it wasn't added to the What's Old is New thing for 3145/3150 TROs list.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #78 on: 28 April 2019, 09:56:32 »
What direction would you go with it, though?
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #79 on: 28 April 2019, 11:22:53 »
What direction would you go with it, though?

Swap all gauss for Silver Bullets, nickname it the Thunder Hawk "Partisan". :D
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #80 on: 28 April 2019, 23:19:04 »
What direction would you go with it, though?

Clan XL, Ferro Lam armor & boosted C3- for weps 2 Clan Gauss and a Silver Bullet w/med xpulse, hold a bit of the cheese

Edit- forgot to mention the XPulse

For simpler on the -7X, make it DHS, put a boosted C3 slave, give it LFF, change 1 GR to Silver Bullet and swap the 4 ML for a pair of Med XPulse.  Still say Ferro Lam, b/c it makes no sense not to put the best armor on it.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2019, 23:34:15 by Colt Ward »
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #81 on: 28 April 2019, 23:27:15 »
Well, Clantech is the only way you can do better with the T-Hawk.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #82 on: 29 April 2019, 02:16:18 »
Well, Clantech is the only way you can do better with the T-Hawk.
No, there are two IS ways:

-Drop an ML for C3.

-Drop an ML and half a ton of armor for ECM and stealth armor... >:D

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #83 on: 29 April 2019, 03:26:55 »
No, there are two IS ways:

-Drop an ML for C3.

-Drop an ML and half a ton of armor for ECM and stealth armor... >:D

I rather like the idea of artillery cannons or pieces replacing Gauss rifles.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #84 on: 29 April 2019, 08:53:29 »
No, there are two IS ways:

-Drop an ML for C3.

That's not a really big change, though.

Quote
-Drop an ML and half a ton of armor for ECM and stealth armor... >:D

Difficult, given how crit-packed the design is already.  And it would be extremely similar to the Stealth Pillager.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #85 on: 29 April 2019, 09:32:54 »
Not difficult, the -7X has the crits easy, but it would need a SHS to DHS swap.  And if talking improved, go with Boosted instead of plain C3.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #86 on: 29 April 2019, 09:56:24 »
Just playing around with a variant.  300LFE, Endo, Full armor (std), 12 double heat sinks (all internal in the engine), 2x std Gauss (torso mounted) (5tons ammo, 1 in each leg, 1 in each side torso, 1 in ct) 4x ERMedium lasers (1x each side torso, 2x left arm), 1x small pulse (head) and finally 1x HPPC w/cap (r arm).  pound away with the gauss at range, add the HPPC when close enough, switch to lasers if it gets to close.  Small pulse for toads.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #87 on: 29 April 2019, 10:03:39 »
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #88 on: 29 April 2019, 15:14:42 »
Swap all gauss for Silver Bullets, nickname it the Thunder Hawk "Partisan". :D

i ran a lance of custom alacorns that replaced the regular gauss with silver bullet. after a not insignificant amount of rolling it was requested i not do that again

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #89 on: 03 May 2019, 05:02:17 »
Swap all gauss for Silver Bullets, nickname it the Thunder Hawk "Partisan". :D

Does hardened armour negate SB pellets the same way it does LB cluster rounds?

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #90 on: 03 May 2019, 05:17:55 »
Does hardened armour negate SB pellets the same way it does LB cluster rounds?

cheers,

Gabe

Does hardened do anything vs LB clusters? I thought that was clan Lamellor-FF?

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #91 on: 03 May 2019, 06:45:59 »
Hardened armour has no special properties regarding pellets. It doesn't reduce damage by X, it just can take twice as much per box.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #92 on: 03 May 2019, 08:03:36 »
Does hardened do anything vs LB clusters? I thought that was clan Lamellor-FF?

You're dead on about lamellor.  For the record, Silver Bullet and LB-X cluster rounds are resolved the same way mechanically because they have the same type codes - DB, C, and F.  The other codes on those weapons don't affect this specific question.  TW lists the code meanings on pages 113-114  if you're not familiar with them.

To expand on what UnLimiTeD said about the hardened armor, it does reduce penetrating crits, which can be helpful if you're getting sandblasted with LB-X pellets but yeah, it's not going to do much about the damage itself.  On the other hand, given how thick hardened armor can be, sandblasting it is usually more threatening for vehicle motive hits or head hits (for pilot wounds) unless I missed a detail in the rules, not armor loss or crits.

To really blow through hardened, you need RE lasers (which blow straight through it like it's standard) or a whole pile of heavy guns.
« Last Edit: 03 May 2019, 08:09:59 by Moonsword »

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #93 on: 03 May 2019, 08:15:40 »
Does hardened do anything vs LB clusters? I thought that was clan Lamellor-FF?
Quite the opposite... while a single box can take 2 hits, you are forced to round up. so every hit of a cluster round removes a box.

... yeah just realized that I have done a mistake. under the old maximum tech, it was rounding, tactical operations have it correctly. Maybe I should reconsider the whole hardened armor as viable again.
 

« Last Edit: 03 May 2019, 08:30:50 by Hptm. Streiger »

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #94 on: 03 May 2019, 08:21:03 »
Quite the opposite... while a single box can take 2 hits, you are forced to round up. so every hit of a cluster round removes a box.

Incorrect. There is no rounding. You use slashes to mark damage on hardened armor, so / means one point of damage, and X means two points and that armor dot is filled up.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #95 on: 03 May 2019, 08:56:48 »
I was looking around, i found a Fan-TRO had better variant, but it's mix tech one. Clan Gauss Rifles, Case II, Light 300 engine, Double Heat sinks, C3, 4 Small X-lasers.  Interesting machine.  Wish CGL had thought that as refit version.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #96 on: 03 May 2019, 09:08:32 »
Quite the opposite... while a single box can take 2 hits, you are forced to round up. so every hit of a cluster round removes a box.

... yeah just realized that I have done a mistake. under the old maximum tech, it was rounding, tactical operations have it correctly. Maybe I should reconsider the whole hardened armor as viable again.

Hardened is quite viable up into the 3100s because you get things that let you really bring out its benefits.
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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #97 on: 03 May 2019, 09:11:10 »
Okay, I'm serious. Customs and talk of customs do not belong here. There is only one part of the forum where they're meant to go. C:-)
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Ulquiorra9000

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #98 on: 25 June 2019, 11:18:23 »
I haven't used the Thunder Hawk much since I don't yet have a mini for it. Now I'm wondering: how much BV should a player dedicate for a guard force around a Thunder Hawk? Maybe a pair of lights, or an assault tank, or a bunch of battle armor? Is it even worth it? Perhaps a large tank with a short-range knockout gun to deter units trying to flank the Thunder Hawk.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #99 on: 25 June 2019, 11:35:24 »
I haven't used the Thunder Hawk much since I don't yet have a mini for it. Now I'm wondering: how much BV should a player dedicate for a guard force around a Thunder Hawk? Maybe a pair of lights, or an assault tank, or a bunch of battle armor? Is it even worth it? Perhaps a large tank with a short-range knockout gun to deter units trying to flank the Thunder Hawk.

Well, first off, you have the right idea on how to use one- with heavy support. It's your queen in chess- it can do a lot of great things, but losing it is crippling. The problem is that it's pretty easy to lose a Thunder Hawk- with so many ways to go 'boom', and a big engine that doesn't react well to 'boom' events, it's a surprisingly fragile machine. So proper support is important.

I for one like to make sure my bases are covered. The rifles aren't as useful in-close against the kind of fast targets that will attempt to bum-rush your Hawk, and it really should be focusing on using the rifles to deal with longer-range targets anyway of the heavy and assault weight varieties, not wasting shots on fast-movers. A Hunchback makes for a great bodyguard, as they have for centuries- anyone who gets close enough to start irritating your crown jewel gets an AC/20 to the face (or whatever iteration of that gun your Hunchie of choice brought to the party). Even a fellow 100-ton beast coming for your Hawk can't ignore the Hunchback's firepower- but losing a Hunchback is probably worth the sacrifice if it means your Thunder Hawk can withdraw safely.

Another good choice is the Battle Hawk. A big problem for the Thunder Hawk is fast-moving harassers like the Spider and... er, Harasser, units that speed in, deliver a modest punch to the rear of a big Mech, and scoot away. A few passes by units like that can cripple or kill a Thunder Hawk, but it's not really all that well equipped to deal with that threat (do you want to waste your Gauss ammo on a Pegasus instead of an Orion or something like that?). The Battle Hawk's pulse lasers make for a very accurate and powerful close-range smack to the face of such units, freeing the big guy to keep throwing Gauss slugs at the enemy until it stops being funny.

Thunder Hawks are priority targets for the enemy (can't imagine why...), and so they're vulnerable to the enemy's air power- if you can get a good bombing pass from a fighter in on that thing, you can get rid of it pretty easily. Units that excel at AA, as a result, are a good thing- so units with LB-10X batteries are always welcome. The Gurteltier is a little too slow to keep up with the Thunder Hawk in any but flat terrain, but if you're setting the Hawk up on a hill or other strategic area putting a couple of Gurties nearby is handy. And hey, if the enemy doesn't throw planes at you, LB-10X cluster shots are a great way to exploit the holes punched by the Gauss rifles anyway, right? Another Steiner-flavored LB-10X unit to consider is the variant of the Hollander, which is a little underwhelming on its own but makes for an excellent support unit in a case like this.

I'll be honest though. The best way to protect a Thunder Hawk is to get rid of the damned thing and get a couple of Alacorns instead.
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Colt Ward

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #100 on: 25 June 2019, 12:02:55 »
I always hated to play certain Lyran players on the servers because they would have the Wall of Steel 3060- lots of Gauss and ERPPC- and use Fenrir to escort the assaults.  BA suffer no move mod so the ML, MPL and SRM Fenrir are a pain . . . ERSL are not far behind, but the others create a solid 6 hex 'go away' zone that can be placed 1 or 2 hexes behind your THawk which gives you a bit of coverage to the front for TSM'ers.

Honestly, for deployment (if I was able) I would have the two lances of mechs with one being assault direct fire (Hauptman, Atlas, Banshee, Devastator, Salamander, Marauder, etc) and the rest being skirmishers (Zeus, Victor, Warhammer, etc) and 2-4 Fenrir backing the direct fire with at least 2 Marsden IIA supporting . . . Like JHB said, if the oppo does not use VTOL or ASF then those LBX pellets can exploit the holes Gauss, ERPPC, LRM and ERLL opens up.
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Weirdo

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #101 on: 25 June 2019, 12:57:09 »
...freeing the big guy to keep throwing Gauss slugs at the enemy until it stops being funny.

Are the Thunder Hawk's ammo bins deep enough for that?
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #102 on: 25 June 2019, 14:44:49 »
Are the Thunder Hawk's ammo bins deep enough for that?

Two tons per rifle, it's not going to be firing like a Pillager or Nightstar, but it should last an average engagement.
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Colt Ward

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #103 on: 25 June 2019, 14:55:43 »
I think the point was more that . . . 3 gauss slugs a turn does not stop being funny.  If your the one throwing them.
Colt Ward
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"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #104 on: 25 June 2019, 23:50:53 »
Maybe a pair of lights, or an assault tank, or a bunch of battle armor? Is it even worth it? Perhaps a large tank with a short-range knockout gun to deter units trying to flank the Thunder Hawk.
I'd say it is always worth it.  If something flanks your Thunderhawk it may take a turn or two of fire, but is more or less dead once any of those Gauss explode.  What plays the part of a picket and/or flanking deterant is entirely up to you, but I'd suggest looking at the following.

If you want pulse weapons look at the Nightsky, Uziel 8S, or Penetrator.  The Penetrator is going to be most ideal when you know you can bait your opponent into broken terrain.

For crit seeking there are significant options- The Bushwacker is a good option with models with either an LB-10 or 20 that doesn't signal the obvious that a Hunchback does when it hits the field.  The Bharghest also has an LB-20 options and that lateral shift can be game breaking if used correctly.  When you want to be more overt you can always take a Zeus 9WD or a Nightsky 9FC or 9SS.

As for tanks, if terrain isn't heinous you could always buy a lance of Hetzer or Saladins and load them up with precision rounds.

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #105 on: 26 June 2019, 08:53:40 »
When you want to be more overt you can always take a Zeus 9WD or a Nightsky 9FC or 9SS.

Nightstar, 95t the 9FC has 2 LB-10X IIRC with other weapons.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

JadeHellbringer

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #106 on: 26 June 2019, 10:57:41 »
I think the point was more that . . . 3 gauss slugs a turn does not stop being funny.  If your the one throwing them.

Bingo. And let's be real, if your T-Hawk goes 16 turns of firing and runs out of ammo, your opponent deserves every bit of scorn you heap upon him for allowing a Thunder Hawk to last that long. And deserves equal credit for managing to let one of the most terrifying assault Mechs in the game pummel him that long without him just outright losing the match. For a Thunder Hawk, two tons of ammo per rifle is plenty- it shouldn't be allowed to remain on the field that long by the enemy, it'll either croak or withdraw for repairs long before the ammo bin runs dry. (And if your Hawk has to go home to get its boo-boos kissed by the techs, you're definitely not finding it funny anymore.)
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Colt Ward

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Re: MotW: Thunder Hawk
« Reply #107 on: 26 June 2019, 11:37:49 »
Hey, if it needs to it can always find a nearby IS Standard or Cavalier squad to muzzle load its Gauss Rifles.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

 

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