A question on compatibility of C3 systems and Clan tech

[SteelRaven]

Believe someone wrote a couple of fan articles regarding the capability of clan tech.

The short version: if you can plug a C3 into a Omni like the Sunder F or Hauptmann F, no reason it not to work. The C3 doesn't care about what type of weapons you have, it just care about talking to other C3 computers in the other C3 equipped mechs. 

You will never see it on a Clan mech unless someone slaps it on because Clans are all about individual honor vs sharing kills. Similar reason they never used the Null Signature System post honor system, there is no honor in hiding from the enemy. 

[Talen5000]

     I am getting ready to run a campaign through the jihad era, and our group has decided to use the 789th Striker Regiment of the Crater Cobra as our primary force.  We would like to lump in some of that Clan Smoke Jaguar and Ghost Bear salvage into our regimental and battalion level command OmniMechs.
     So, as the subject line asks, "Is C3 compatible with Clan tech?"  If so, can you point me to the appropriate source.  I have looked through multiple sources, and I haven't seen anything definitive.
     Thanks in advance for your help, and Have a Great New year !

Technically, there are going to be all sorts of issues and diffuclties that woud be impractical to overcome, ensuring no compatbility
As far as the game rules are concerned...go for it. If there is no rule prohibiting it, it is OK

[Church14]

I might have said that they have to hardwire the C3 systems into their omnis. The implication being that you can make the system work on a clan mech, but enough electrical or base code differences between IS and clan tech makes it a pain to implement.

Otherwise, sounds like the answer is it works.

[Maelwys]

You will never see it on a Clan mech unless someone slaps it on because Clans are all about individual honor vs sharing kills. Similar reason they never used the Null Signature System post honor system, there is no honor in hiding from the enemy.

Never say never. The Clans of the 3150's aren't the Clans of the 3050s.

[Colt Ward]

Technically, there are going to be all sorts of issues and diffuclties that woud be impractical to overcome, ensuring no compatbility
As far as the game rules are concerned...go for it. If there is no rule prohibiting it, it is OK

Why would their be any problems that would be different than the C3 system providing targeting system to Donal and PartiKill PPCs?

As mentioned, Dragon Roars, has C3 equipped IS Omnis that have Clan weapons IIRC.  Recent mechs mixing Clan weapons and C3 would be the Lament 4RC which has 4 iHLLs, Clan DHS and a C3 slave in a production model.

[Sartris]

has it ever stated in a source that there are compatibility issues?

headcanons presented as fact aren't productive to a common understanding of the universe

[BirdofPrey]

None that I can remember, though I do think somewhere it does actually explicitly say clans view it as dishonorable.

[dgorsman]

has it ever stated in a source that there are compatibility issues?

headcanons presented as fact aren't productive to a common understanding of the universe

The only ones I'm aware of are the refit, customization, and repair rules which add penalties for IS techs untrained in working with Clan tech.

[Daryk]

Plus, unless I'm mistaken, you can't do the mixed tech thing with pods.  You have to use the bog standard customization rules each time.

[Sartris]

stratops doesn't seem to mind.

Omni units possess a fixed amount of pod space that can be configured with a wide variety of weapons and equipment— the only limitations being available tonnage, space and access to the desired equipment. Players can adapt non-pod weapons and equipment by installing them in an OmniPod. Such OmniPods cost one quarter of the base cost of the equipment being installed, and the process is considered a Grade D (Maintenance) refit. The time required is equal to that necessary to replace the component being installed in an OmniPod.

the only prohibition on mixed tech comes from TW

Under standard rules, Clan and Inner Sphere technologies cannot be combined on the same chassis of any unit type, nor can units mounting tournament legal and/or advanced technologies be combined with those that employ experimental technologies.

In actuality, battlefield salvage and field-testing have opened the door to hybrid units where standard Inner Sphere technologies crossover with equipment of Clan or even experimental origins.

[SteelRaven]

Never say never. The Clans of the 3150's aren't the Clans of the 3050s.

I'll amend my statement when we see more 2150 material.

As of now, Clan Mechs listed in, say, TRO: CI don't take advantage of technology the same way their IS counter parts and that is by design. One of my toughest matches as Clan vs IS was having a Berserker BRX-C3 charge at my mech while also spotting for the Gunslinger on a ridge far behind it. The C3 system literally closed the gap meaning I no longer had the advantage of range over my IS opponents.

Both the Sunder F and the Hauptmann M both use Clan weaponry and a C3 System and both are canon configuration so any limitations only exist do to Clan Zell, IS logistics  or just for game balance. I mean, can you imagine a Bane 3 or a Annihilator C2 with C3?       

[Daryk]

stratops doesn't seem to mind.
*snip*
the only prohibition on mixed tech comes from TW

Right, which means you're using the standard customization rules vice pod replacement.

[MadCapellan]

Of pertinent interest to those in this thread -

The Ursus-PR found in XTRO: Clans is fitted with a C³i system. Five prototypes were said to have been built, but the C³i was removed from the later production version Ursus 3. XTRO: Republic I saw the Ursus-PR units paired with newly produced Beowulf IIC-PR units in a bloody raid against the Nova Cats by freebirth warriors that ultimately lead to the discontinuation of C³i manufacture over political links to the Word of Blake.

The DLR-O Doloire & the ARS-V1 Ares amongst other IS designs from the 3140s show that mixed tech Omnis can use C³ in canon as well as in the rules. Any impediment is purely cultural on the part of the Clans.

[SteelRaven]

I keep forgetting about XTRO: Clans, thanks Mad Cap.

[glitterboy2098]

i would presume that by the jihad the Inner sphere C3 systems are easily useable with clan-tech weapon systems. after all by then the IS had captured enough clan weapons that their performance specs would be well known. C3 would mainly need to know the performance specs (the various factors that aggregate to create the range bands and modifiers in the rules), and adding new weapons should be as simple as a software patch with that data.

by the Jihad clantech is going to be well enough known that most systems will either already have it loaded in their software, or have access to software updates to add them.
if this was a game set during the clan invasion though you'd probably be out of luck, since the data needed would still need to be collected.

that said your GM should check the date your game is set at, and the intro dates for any hardware you captured.. anything introduced only 2-3 years prior would probably not be in the C3 system's software.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The novel Double Blind was the earliest reference to combining C3 systems with Clantech, and no issues were mentioned beyond the basic difficulties of adding Clantech weapons to Inner Sphere mechs.

[Hellraiser]

None of these things are dishonorable.  The part that has always stuck sideways isn't the tech used, it's using it against someone else's target.

Sorry if I wasn't clear Scotty.

That is what I was trying to say.  You shouldn't use those techs if applied by someone else.

Your free to NARC your own target but if someone NARCs yours or vice/versa then its interfering with the spirit of Zel.

I can't think of a clan unit with TAG & Arrow but in theory you could tag for yourself.

[Scotty]

Right, which means you're using the standard customization rules vice pod replacement.

...no, that's not what that means.  It means that if it's an OmniPod, you can plug it in.  End of statement.  Clan, IS, Primitive, doesn't matter.  If it's Omni capable equipment already (and it's right there in the same paragraph that  you can make something Omni capable with a refit on the piece of equipment, not the 'Mech), the sky's the limit.

[Sartris]

Standard rules also prevent artillery, smoke, and infantry field guns. It’s an arbitrary muzzle on what can and can’t be used - not a rule guiding any construction rubric in and of itself

[Charistoph]

That’s not a rules reference. It’s fluff speculation.

The question at hand is whether it’s allowed by the rules. The technician hocus pocus is outside that scope

I never suggested it was anything but fluff speculation.  However since fluff does drive a lot of how they set up some of the rules compatibility, such as the aforementioned Zelbrigen, it's not outside consideration.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Yeah that's the real snag.
Clan honor is you fight your own battles.  While TAGging or NARCing for someone else is obvious direct intervention/assistance that can turn an honor duel into a barbarian's free for all, C3 is still using someone else's targeting data to help yourself and vice versa.

  The honor issue applies for duels. Attacking a target, like a bridge or a building isn't a duel, its war and the Clans have no qualms about what equipment they use. The same would go for vehicles -no Clan omni pilot would quibble over dumping artillery on a formation of tanks or infantry.

[Daryk]

...no, that's not what that means.  It means that if it's an OmniPod, you can plug it in.  End of statement.  Clan, IS, Primitive, doesn't matter.  If it's Omni capable equipment already (and it's right there in the same paragraph that  you can make something Omni capable with a refit on the piece of equipment, not the 'Mech), the sky's the limit.

It means exactly that, even if you're applying the standard customization rules to the equipment vice the 'mech, you're still applying them.

[Sartris]

"standard customization rules" are what you find in stratops, which are not Standard (aka Tournament Legal) rules. Standard rules don't allow you to eject either.

Stratops clearly states in the customization chapter that in-universe (what the thread is about) customization realities transcend Standard rules. To say you can't make mixed tech pods falls under the "you can't use blazers" umbrella, not the "that's not allowed in-universe" umbrella. The -R first gen omni variants prove that much.

[Daryk]

Not arguing that Sartris.  I meant the StratOps rules with a lower case "standard", to mean "not house rules".

[Talen5000]

Why would their be any problems that would be different than the C3 system providing targeting system to Donal and PartiKill PPCs?

Because three centuries of divergence don't get overcome by tinkering with a few lines of code without help from the authors.

[Sartris]

logic is nice and all, but largely useless here. jeff goldblum wrote a virus on a mac and infected the alien mothership in Independence Day. this is a trifle by comparison  :))

whatever the case, there appear to be no rules that support any kind of incompatibility argument (which is what the op was looking for). to be clear, i'm not saying they don't exist want to see them if they're out there.

[Talen5000]

logic is nice and all, but largely useless here. jeff goldblum wrote a virus on a mac and infected the alien mothership in Independence Day. this is a trifle by comparison  :))

Hence the use of the word "technically".
The rules allow it, but it really is an aspect of the game (yet another) that shouldn't work. It is impressive enough that the IS can use each others weapon systems, and that Omni Pods are compatible. IRL, OmniTech wouldn't work because of the ways each company works and they certainly wouldn't get an acceptable degree of coordination between the Great Houses to turn it anything other than a glorified modular tech system. The Clans only managed it because the Grand Council imposed uniform standards

[VhenRa]

Hence the use of the word "technically".
The rules allow it, but it really is an aspect of the game (yet another) that shouldn't work. It is impressive enough that the IS can use each others weapon systems, and that Omni Pods are compatible. IRL, OmniTech wouldn't work because of the ways each company works and they certainly wouldn't get an acceptable degree of coordination between the Great Houses to turn it anything other than a glorified modular tech system. The Clans only managed it because the Grand Council imposed uniform standards

If the IS made it first... probably.

The big thing that helped the IS in that regard is they simply copied the Clans existing standards wholesale and didn't reinvent the wheel. End result? Clantech works, everyone's IS tech works... and for that matter, most of the original IS Omnimechs were either purely Drac... or Drac designs that they shared with the rest of the IS via licencing agreements.

[Talen5000]

If the IS made it first... probably.

The big thing that helped the IS in that regard is they simply copied the Clans existing standards wholesale and didn't reinvent the wheel. End result? Clantech works, everyone's IS tech works... and for that matter, most of the original IS Omnimechs were either purely Drac... or Drac designs that they shared with the rest of the IS via licencing agreements.

Divergence - it happens.

[klarg1]

From memory when the IS copied Omnimechs, they just copied the clan's omnimech pod standards. They didn't create a competing standard, no format war so to speak.

So from an in-setting stand point, putting clan weapons on an IS omni is just a matter of having clan omnipods sitting around and some elbow grease.

I actually thought it was a stronger relationship than that. My memory was that the first generation IS omnis were explicitly built to be able to use Clan omni pods captured in the field.