Author Topic: That Dark Age Fiction  (Read 8048 times)

abou

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That Dark Age Fiction
« on: 05 August 2018, 14:07:31 »
I never read the Dark Age fiction. The closest I got was the ebook of Bonfire of Worlds, which means I was coming in at the end. So I thought about going back and reading the line, but two things occurred to me:

A. I have heard that much of the line is kind of... mediocre. I also heard it gets better.

B. It is a heck of a lot bigger of a line of books than I thought it would be.

So main questions I have:

1. What happened to David Lear?

2. Do any of the books focused on Tucker Harwell and ComStar reveal anything more than what is concluded in Bonfire of Worlds? Anything worth checking out?

3. Any more information about the mysterious forces involved in Clarion Call that took out the HPG network? Is it just seeded throughout the books or does it come up only a few times?

I think that last one is what bothers me the most. Devlin Stone gives it a name, but he was in stasis. Is there some Shakespearean allusion that we are missing to the sword, snake, & shield emblem? A rot within the RotS to bring itself down?

I feel that something would have been stated in the fiction at some point, but the decade gap in novels makes a lot of this feel awkward.

Also, I realized last night the Latin in the RotS insignia is all sorts of wrong. So I can't imagine the RotS is all that competent.

roosterboy

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #1 on: 05 August 2018, 14:26:38 »
A. I have heard that much of the line is kind of... mediocre. I also heard it gets better.

Yes, after the first four or five books they start getting better. They really start nailing things around The Scorpion Jar (which is, IIRC, book 13).

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1. What happened to David Lear?

Not answered in the novels. That info is in either Era Digest: Dark Age or Era Report: 3145. or maybe mentioned in both, I forget.

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2. Do any of the books focused on Tucker Harwell and ComStar reveal anything more than what is concluded in Bonfire of Worlds? Anything worth checking out?

Target of Opportunity introduces Tucker and him figuring out how to restart HPGs. Of course, as you know if you've read Bonfire, his method isn't always successful. I guess there's not really much in that book that you can't glean from Bonfire.

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3. Any more information about the mysterious forces involved in Clarion Call that took out the HPG network? Is it just seeded throughout the books or does it come up only a few times?

Nope, not really. A little bit of info in Blood Avatar references the logo seen on the mysterious attackers. There's a brief discussion of the attackers in Ghost War that talks a bit about their modus operandi. And that's about it.

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Also, I realized last night the Latin in the RotS insignia is all sorts of wrong. So I can't imagine the RotS is all that competent.

That's pretty much par for the course when it comes to foreign phrases in BattleTech, unfortunately.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #2 on: 05 August 2018, 14:28:42 »
That's pretty much par for the course when it comes to foreign phrases in BattleTech, unfortunately.

Spelling and grammatical errors can always be explained away as being "correct for how the language is used 1,000 years in the future!"

Even Latin.  "Yeah it's wrong for Classical Latin, but not Noveau Latin!  That's what they all use 1,000 years in the future, donchaknow!"

roosterboy

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #3 on: 05 August 2018, 14:37:51 »
Spelling and grammatical errors can always be explained away as being "correct for how the language is used 1,000 years in the future!"

Even Latin.  "Yeah it's wrong for Classical Latin, but not Noveau Latin!  That's what they all use 1,000 years in the future, donchaknow!"

Yeah, that's always a good go-to explanation. But do we really think anyone is actively using Latin in the 32nd century, outside of maybe the Marians?

It just kinda chaps my hide when you think about how well-preserved information on historical battles like the Alamo or anything from the US Civil War are in some of the novels yet apparently nobody thought to preserve a Lewis & Short or Wheelock. ::)

abou

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #4 on: 05 August 2018, 16:59:54 »
And it isn't as though there aren't several individuals around the boards who wouldn't be willing to help just for the sake of helping.

Anyway, thanks for the information, RB.

EDIT: There it is in the Era Digest: Dark Age timeline

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3128 (19 May) David Lear succumbs to Harper-Gambol Syndrome.

DOUBLE EDIT:

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3131 (18 Mar) Freedom Day formally created as a Republic holiday.
(7 Apr) Project Jacob’s Ladder initiated by Bannson Universal
Unlimited.
(3 Oct) Bank collapse on Vega.
(14 Nov) ComStar’s bid to upgrade HPG stations is rejected by Exarch
Redburn in favor of a bid by Stryker Productions Ltd

Interesting.
« Last Edit: 05 August 2018, 17:06:40 by abou »

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #5 on: 05 August 2018, 17:17:52 »
It just kinda chaps my hide when you think about how well-preserved information on historical battles like the Alamo or anything from the US Civil War are in some of the novels yet apparently nobody thought to preserve a Lewis & Short or Wheelock. ::)

It's not totally implausible for Civil War battles being as well known 1000 years from now as battles like Cannae and Jaxartes are today.

But yeah I feel ya the BattleTech authors probably do let their personal freak flag fly a little too often with regards to Civil War history.  It couldn't be used in the same way to convey meaning to a reader who presumably shares an author's passion for military history about a conflict in the fiction, but I'd still like to see characters reference other fictional battles as analogues for their current tribulations.  "Ok, we're going to get into a line and then do just like General Snodgrass did on Gobbler's Knob in the Great Turkey Riots of 2483...

TwinkieMonkieIIC

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #6 on: 05 August 2018, 18:19:55 »
Ok, we're going to get into a line and then do just like General Snodgrass did on Gobbler's Knob in the Great Turkey Riots of 2483...
Remember the Knob!

glitterboy2098

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #7 on: 05 August 2018, 19:11:27 »
It's not totally implausible for Civil War battles being as well known 1000 years from now as battles like Cannae and Jaxartes are today.

But yeah I feel ya the BattleTech authors probably do let their personal freak flag fly a little too often with regards to Civil War history.  It couldn't be used in the same way to convey meaning to a reader who presumably shares an author's passion for military history about a conflict in the fiction, but I'd still like to see characters reference other fictional battles as analogues for their current tribulations.  "Ok, we're going to get into a line and then do just like General Snodgrass did on Gobbler's Knob in the Great Turkey Riots of 2483...
well, most of the references i've seen to it have been in books during civil wars in the setting.. the fedcom civil war where it got heavily used, and the grey death series ones related to the Skye Uprising. so you could argue that while the choice was meant to be thematic. though why the american civil war and not the myriad other ones before and since is probably a result of the books being written by americans for americans.. in general we aren't as familiar with civil wars that occurred in europe, asia, south america, or africa.. and using one of those or one from the BT universes fictional history would involve too much diversion from the main plot of the novels to explain.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #8 on: 05 August 2018, 19:53:50 »
well, most of the references i've seen to it have been in books during civil wars in the setting.. the fedcom civil war where it got heavily used, and the grey death series ones related to the Skye Uprising. so you could argue that while the choice was meant to be thematic. though why the american civil war and not the myriad other ones before and since is probably a result of the books being written by americans for americans.. in general we aren't as familiar with civil wars that occurred in europe, asia, south america, or africa.. and using one of those or one from the BT universes fictional history would involve too much diversion from the main plot of the novels to explain.

I follow.  Plus the history the characters in the 31st century know is written primarily by the Star League and its successors, which in turn are successors of Space America.. and Space America can reasonably be expected to have biases that are relatable to most BT fandom.  It absolutely stands to reason that (US) Civil War battles could be better known in the 31st century than other (especially non Anglophone) conflicts of the 19th century.

glitterboy2098

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #9 on: 05 August 2018, 20:00:57 »
still, it would be nice to see historical allusions to other conflicts in the fiction. we've had a few novels that were obviously meant as analogs for various real world conflicts (ideal war and Vietnam for example, or Dagger Point for UN style peacekeeping. but those didn't make the connection obvious via dialog, just through the general story elements.

Colt Ward

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #10 on: 05 August 2018, 23:04:20 »
You mean you want something of a analogue of Chinese Gordon's exploits in the 1860s?
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glitterboy2098

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #11 on: 06 August 2018, 00:30:43 »
guess i could have made it clearer.. i'd prefer that if people name drop historical events, it be stuff other than WW2 and the american civil war.
my bit about those two books were pointing out that we'd had books with clear connections to other events, but they were thematic rather than dialog. sorry.

that said, i wouldn't mind fiction drawing on other conflicts as thematic elements either.

Rorke

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #12 on: 06 August 2018, 03:08:57 »
It's not totally implausible for Civil War battles being as well known 1000 years from now as battles like Cannae and Jaxartes are today.

But yeah I feel ya the BattleTech authors probably do let their personal freak flag fly a little too often with regards to Civil War history.  It couldn't be used in the same way to convey meaning to a reader who presumably shares an author's passion for military history about a conflict in the fiction, but I'd still like to see characters reference other fictional battles as analogues for their current tribulations.  "Ok, we're going to get into a line and then do just like General Snodgrass did on Gobbler's Knob in the Great Turkey Riots of 2483...

This, sums up certain things so beautifully.  I'd not have managed to say something like that, without
being a degree more disparaging.
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Caturix

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #13 on: 06 August 2018, 14:31:28 »
The US Civil War is not that well known outside North America, you know.
We've had so many more important conflicts in the long history of the world as a whole, that catching on implicit allusion to this particular war in a sci-fi novel requires looking for it most of the time when you're not born on america soil.

As for my personal taste, I dislike explicit references to real life events in fictionnal universes set in a far future.
So fictionnal battles as references is good for me, especially since we've got a lot of them since the beginning of Battletech. Many of them having been detailed in sourcebooks, or novels.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #14 on: 06 August 2018, 14:49:43 »
The US Civil War is not that well known outside North America, you know.
We've had so many more important conflicts in the long history of the world as a whole, that catching on implicit allusion to this particular war in a sci-fi novel requires looking for it most of the time when you're not born on america soil.

I agree that the US Civil War is over-represented.  But not necessarily because of the American-centrism in prioritizing it...  The BTU universe is shaped by American points-of-view, and not just by out-of-universe/meta reasons.  In-universe, the entire Inner Sphere ultimately harkens back to the Terran Alliance directly or indirectly.  And the Terran Alliance back to the Western Alliance, and the Western Alliance back to an American-led NATO.

But yeah again, I agree that the Civil War sees references all out of proportion to other centuries' conflicts.  As I said upthread I'd love to see "callbacks" to past battles that are still in our fictional future.

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As for my personal taste, I dislike explicit references to real life events in fictionnal universes set in a far future.
So fictionnal battles as references is good for me, especially since we've got a lot of them since the beginning of Battletech. Many of them having been detailed in sourcebooks, or novels.

I don't mind it in principle, but yeah too many makes for undermining the suspension of disbelief.  One very minor mention that momentarily ruined my immersion in Shattered Fortress was a broadcast being available via streaming to the planetary denizens of Who-Cares-World.  Sigh.  Streaming *is* a broadcast.  Mentioning streaming only serves to date the book in real-world contexts.

cypher226

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #15 on: 06 August 2018, 16:16:49 »
Given that most of the viewpoint characters in the novels I've read are military officers or personnel, it makes sense they would reference historic battles. There are good reasons why the battles of Hannibal, Caesar, Wellington and so on are studied, and it's unlikely the lessons will have been completely replaced 1000 years in the future. More diversity in references would be good - the Alamo wasn't the only doomed heroic stand for example, Thermopyle would make a perfectly acceptable alternative  ;)

Colt Ward

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #16 on: 06 August 2018, 16:50:14 »
One reason the US Civil War gets cited is b/c its the point when firearms go from having blocks of troops standing shoulder to shoulder to having open file formation- to be blunt, while European military powers had observers on both sides afaik their recommendations and observations were not well heeded going into WWI.  IF they had been then perhaps the mass charges across open fields into machine guns and artillery might not have happened.  So yes, the US Civil War has import for being a war where the military paradigm changed during the war- both for the army & navy with accurate repeating/cartridge small arms and steam powered ships.

With that said . . . the paradigm in BTU is pretty much locked in.

Like I said earlier, I would love to see some cultural references . . . for instance, Roderick Steiner?  He should have been referring to Frederick the Great's era, cause with the German meta-culture of the Lyran state I would expect more German/Prussian military examples.  Sun-Tzu & Daoshen Liao's CCAF?  Xin Sheng baby, tell all the great stories of your Chinese meta-culture military.
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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #17 on: 06 August 2018, 17:23:18 »
DOUBLE EDIT:

Interesting.
I've noticed this too. This event being worth mention, the time span this event occurred, even the wording (striker, blackout...) is interesting.

Colt Ward

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #18 on: 06 August 2018, 18:46:06 »
?  Blackout is not a new term?
Colt Ward
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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #19 on: 06 August 2018, 19:01:55 »
?  Blackout is not a new term?

I'm talking about the name. You have a company named Stryker Productions Ltd responsible for upgrading HPG stations and a few years later there's a communication blackout.

Strike can mean "refuse to work as a form of organized protest, typically in an attempt to obtain a particular concession or concessions from their employer." and the meaning is closely related to blackout

roosterboy

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #20 on: 06 August 2018, 19:39:04 »
Or... Stryker is a reference to a well-known Jihad-era ComStar agent and Stryker Productions Ltd is a ComStar-affiliated company in the 3100s.

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #21 on: 06 August 2018, 20:17:36 »
Or... Stryker is a reference to a well-known Jihad-era ComStar agent and Stryker Productions Ltd is a ComStar-affiliated company in the 3100s.
Didn't know that. I could find information about the guy, but nothing about the company. Where can I find out more?

abou

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #22 on: 06 August 2018, 20:23:53 »
Or... Stryker is a reference to a well-known Jihad-era ComStar agent and Stryker Productions Ltd is a ComStar-affiliated company in the 3100s.
That doesn't make much sense though. Why would a ComStar-affiliated company win the contract rather than just ComStar?

I thought ComStar retained control of the HPG network as the only entity that had the knowledge to maintain and run it -- even considering everything with the Jihad. So it is just weird that a mystery company shows up and wins a bid to upgrade the HPG network right before the Clarion Call is activated and shuts down all interstellar communication.

Granted there isn't a lot of info out there about what is happening during this time frame. So I have questions on just how widely the operational knowledge of HPGs, but maybe not how to construct them, is out there. Shattered Fortress implies that operating an HPG isn't difficult -- as long as you can find one that works. But patching the operating system...

Kind of bull though if the FedSuns were working on HPG tech for 500 years and then suddenly some mystery company can just waltz in and win a contract.

roosterboy

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #23 on: 06 August 2018, 21:35:08 »
SPL is a Republic-based ComStar-affiliate, founded with early MMRP loans.

ComStar lost its monopoly after the Jihad, although being the only ones who knew how to rebuild the HPG network after the war still gave them some cachet. In the aftermath, they evolved into more of a corporate structure and had a number of local affiliates that actually operated the HPGs in some areas. Stryker was one of those and, for instance, operated the HPGs on Achernar, among other planets.

Here are some notes on ComStar compiled from various Dark Age sources...

  • ComStar now more corporate; combine monasticism with business; still wear robes; no longer pray to machines; HPG compounds no longer closed to outsiders but open and function as community centers;
  • forced to disband ROM after Jihad; Victor Steiner-Davion maintained contacts with many ex-ROM operatives; Stone stood up for ComStar when other nations wanted to dismantle it;
  • second largest investor in interstellar markets, behind only Lyran Commonwealth; own significant percentage of shipping industry in every Successor State and most Periphery realms; substantial real estate holdings throughout Inner Sphere;
  • HPG compounds now guarded by troops from host nation or approved mercenaries; ComStar personnel limited to security guards only; sign of trust and synergy with nations of Inner Sphere;
  • ComStar affiliates with local corporations to run HPGs; Stryker Productions Ltd is one of those;
  • INN major news network throughout Republic;
  • price of HPG transmissions restricted by Republic for last 50 years;

abou

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #24 on: 07 August 2018, 20:41:41 »
Okay, so the knowledge about HPGs has become widespread. That is interesting.

I am surprised that more chapters didn't focus on the details about the blackout. My point of reference here are the novels dealing with the FedCom and the slow burn of information surrounding the assassination of Melissa Steiner-Davion. It seemed that every spine novel had a few chapters dealing with the various characters working on exposing Katherine.

roosterboy

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #25 on: 07 August 2018, 21:20:55 »
Yeah, that’s because the Dark Age line lacked a real spine like the older novels had. Towards the end of the line there were efforts made but by then it was too little, too late.

Also, I really didn’t get the impression that WizKids cared all that much about explaining the mysteries of the Blackout, preferring to leave them as background rather than active story elements.

Colt Ward

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #26 on: 07 August 2018, 21:38:14 »
yeah it was a sort of . . . "We're too busy trying to keep civilization from falling apart to worry about why the phones do not work."  Never mind that one of the 3 Cs is Communication.
Colt Ward
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Banzai

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #27 on: 21 August 2018, 12:51:14 »
  "Ok, we're going to get into a line and then do just like General Snodgrass did on Gobbler's Knob in the Great Turkey Riots of 2483...

"God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."

abou

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #28 on: 28 August 2018, 15:09:40 »
Ben Rome is posting on his blog what were his original ideas for ilClan. This may be entirely apocryphal or may just be waiting to be revealed. I just found it interesting as it is coincides with my hypothesis that the black out was an inside job by a disaffected group within the RotS. I look forward to seeing whether this holds or what changes were made by the current team.

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[Apr] Tucker Harwell, disillusioned and desperate, locates and thaws out Devlin Stone. Stone, enraged that Levin has not enacted the more martial aspects of Fortress Republic, begins studying the situation in the last reported information from the Successor States and planning their conquest; the failure of the Republic (and without Lear’s leavening influence) has convinced him that he must ‘do it all himself.’ Realizing who and what caused the Blackout, at some point after he awakens Stone uses a force of Knights and RAF to wipe out the Guardians.

It may be some stuff got flipped around. The Guardians were replaced with ComStar and the true nemesis is still unknown.

https://benhrome.com/2018/08/21/clan-of-the-il-year-3145/

abou

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #29 on: 02 November 2018, 07:41:03 »
On 10/25, Ben Rome posted a supplemental on how the Fortress worked. This is obviously not going to be what CGL does, but there were some interesting things in there: https://benhrome.com/2018/10/25/clan-of-the-il-supplemental-note-on-the-wall/

But for me, the keys lines were this:

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“The Fortress Wall.” One of the most difficult things left from a prior license holder that needed explained, because it was never explained. Nor was it ever plausibly accounted for. Somehow, the Republic of the Sphere’s magic “Fortress Wall” sprang into being and my team and I had to figure out how it all worked within the confines of the universe’s physics and world rules.

...

All of this helps explain what we’ve already written so nicely that I shudder to think what WizKids actually planned to happen (if anything at all)….

Well... don't that just beat all.

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #30 on: 03 November 2018, 10:42:37 »
Warning: responding to posts from August, rambling a bit. Trying very hard to avoid real politics here, please stop me if I go too far.

The US Civil War is not that well known outside North America, you know.

Indeed. From a non-American perspective myself, the only American Civil War battle anyone outside the US is likely to have heard of is Gettysburg, and even then it's just a vague sense of a bloody battle, Confederates charging at prepared lines and getting slaughtered, and so on.

As far as I know, the American Civil War - from my perspective in Australia, at least - is not seen as being massively interesting, especially on the tactical or strategic level. There's a nod to the idea that it's an example of proto-industrialised-war. It's a transitional war: halfway between two very distinct and famous styles of war. Napoleonic-style column warfare was ceasing to work, but it hadn't quite gotten to the point of, say, Omdurman, or even the Russo-Japanese War. Most of what we know about the American Civil War is slaves, Lincoln, Ford's Theatre, and so on. It seems more interesting as a cultural event than as a military one.

In terms of historical prominence and strategic... interestingness, so to speak, I'd compare it unfavourably to the Napoleonic Wars. We know about Napoleon: Austerlitz, Jena, the march into Russia, Trafalgar, Waterloo, and so on. Yet I don't think I've read many BattleTech characters referring to early modern European wars.

I follow.  Plus the history the characters in the 31st century know is written primarily by the Star League and its successors, which in turn are successors of Space America.. and Space America can reasonably be expected to have biases that are relatable to most BT fandom.

That argument always seemed odd, to me, because I would have said that American culture is conspicuously under-represented in BattleTech. British of all sorts (that is, English, Scottish, Irish; alas, I have not managed to find the Space Welsh yet) are very over-represented, as are German/Scandinavian influences (with the Lyrans, Rasalhague, and the Ghost Bears, we have three distinct vaguely Nordic factions). Japanese are a little overrepresented as well: not only do we have the Draconis Combine, the Lyrans, FedSuns, and FWL all have token Space Japan planets.

But I can't really find much in BattleTech that is noticeably Space America. I guess I've heard of the Taurians as Space Texas? But for the most part American influences are limited to Terra, and a few worlds near it. New Dallas is the only one to immediately spring to mind.

My usual assumption was that there is no visible 'American' culture in space because, as a rule, people brought ethnicities, or deep-rooted, millennia-old cultures with them to the stars. To put it another way, the United Kingdom never went to the stars: English or Scottish culture or the like did. Nations didn't go. Cultures did. That might put the younger American culture at a disadvantage? The visibly 'American' worlds, then, are mostly around Terra (since the US was one of the first off the mark into space and settled the best, closest worlds), and were thus devastated in war and didn't end up setting the cultures of the great houses. Then American culture in general didn't have the sheer penetration of Japanese or German or Chinese or Hindu (a religious identity as well, even stronger).

Finally, a lot of it might just be the luck of the draw. Local planetary cultures vary widely, but most large states in BattleTech have made some effort to establish an interplanetary supraculture, so to speak, that is overlaid on local cultures and becomes normative for nobles and interplanetary elites. So that's Japan for the Combine, German for the Commonwealth, Han Chinese for the Capellans, a sort of Arthurian mash-up for the Suns, and, well, the League doesn't really have one, but then, maybe that's one of the reasons they're constantly fighting each other. So maybe there are lots of American-ish local cultures; it's just that none of them ever became a great house superculture.

Given that most of the viewpoint characters in the novels I've read are military officers or personnel, it makes sense they would reference historic battles. There are good reasons why the battles of Hannibal, Caesar, Wellington and so on are studied, and it's unlikely the lessons will have been completely replaced 1000 years in the future. More diversity in references would be good - the Alamo wasn't the only doomed heroic stand for example, Thermopyle would make a perfectly acceptable alternative  ;)

Or he could choose the Taurian 400 at the Corigan Hills.  ;)

A good reference to BattleTech's own history not only helps make the universe seem larger and makes the characters seem less anachronistic, it also helps cross-sell other BattleTech products!  :D

Icerose20

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #31 on: 03 November 2018, 20:51:57 »
Well, the American Civil War is one of the few civil wars that were not a bunch of forces fighting each other, but two organized forces fighting each other. 

Russian Civil war= many protaginsts fighting with and against each other.

French Religious Wars= Many sides fighting with and against each other.

Syrian Civil war= same thing.


Orwell84

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #32 on: 03 November 2018, 22:15:07 »
But I can't really find much in BattleTech that is noticeably Space America. I guess I've heard of the Taurians as Space Texas? But for the most part American influences are limited to Terra, and a few worlds near it. New Dallas is the only one to immediately spring to mind.

Annapolis (Draconis Combine), Manassas (FedSuns) and Old Kentucky (CapCon) were all more distant worlds settled by North Americans. Old Kentucky, in particular, was founded by people who wanted to bring back the 'good old days' of the USA before those puppets of Geneva ruined everything.

Another in-universe reason American culture is so poorly represented in Battletech was the anti-nationalist / pro-Hegemony mindset the Terran government fostered. Since the Americans settled or made the best real estate closest to Terra, that meant the 'Space Americans' were the primary casualty of the Hegemony's anti-nationalist efforts, while the 'Space Japanese', 'Space Chinese' and 'Space Europeans' lived farther out and got to shape their own governments.
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"The Succession Wars solved no problem. Their effects, both immediate and indirect, were either negative or disastrous. Morally subversive, economically destructive, socially degrading, confused in their causes, devious in their course, futile in their results, they are the outstanding example in Spheroid history of meaningless conflict."
The Third Star League's view of the Succession Wars, plagiarised from an ancient Terran historian's judgement of the Thirty Years War.

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #33 on: 03 November 2018, 23:41:44 »
Well, the American Civil War is one of the few civil wars that were not a bunch of forces fighting each other, but two organized forces fighting each other.

Perhaps, but I suspect it's also that it happened at a time where it was much more culturally determinative? The English Civil War or the Spanish Civil War both had two sides, but they did not play a large role in determining what it means to be English or Spanish.

So I'd guess that it's not to do with how much chaos there was, but rather with how much the period contributed to the development of a national self-identity.

Another in-universe reason American culture is so poorly represented in Battletech was the anti-nationalist / pro-Hegemony mindset the Terran government fostered. Since the Americans settled or made the best real estate closest to Terra, that meant the 'Space Americans' were the primary casualty of the Hegemony's anti-nationalist efforts, while the 'Space Japanese', 'Space Chinese' and 'Space Europeans' lived farther out and got to shape their own governments.

Wait, I thought the Hegemony was noticeably in favour of strong local, national cultures?

Or am I mixing it up with the Authentic movement in Traveller?

Icerose20

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #34 on: 04 November 2018, 01:14:57 »
Always felt the Government of the US (And India) was represented by the Free World League, but the people that represented the US was best brought out by the Federated Suns. 

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #35 on: 04 November 2018, 03:17:13 »
The Free Worlds League has a Westminster-style parliament, created by an English aristocrat.  :P

I would tend to agree that the Federated Suns soaked up a number of American tropes, particularly with the whole idea of being crusaders for freedom. I always thought the Davion-Kurita front was, while half based on the idea of knights versus samurai, also half based on the Pacific front of WWII.

Plus I vaguely recall a tendency of authors to 'Americanise' the Suns, so to speak. I believe there was something in the Warrior trilogy where a Kurita character on Terra brought a sushi box as a packed lunch, and a FedSuns character brought a peanut butter and jam sandwich (oh, fine, jelly, silly Americans), which is about the most iconically American packed lunch I can think of. Or I think there was also a bit in Blood of Kerensky where... argh, off the top of my head I think Victor remarked to Hohiro that where the Combine inspires its citizens with duty and honour, the Suns inspires its citizens with the possibility of personal gain. That read to me a lot like an American defending capitalism, and it felt a little out of place to me. The Federated Suns is not a capitalist democracy, and they play the 'duty and honour' card really strongly as well.

Those are tiny examples, but you get the idea. I think the Suns, through being the early protagonist faction, tended to be portrayed as 'home' or 'familiar', and since most of BattleTech's writers, developers, and players were American, that meant the Suns became more American.

That said, I don't really think those ideas were intended. I don't actually think any great house ought to be straightforwardly identifiable with a single culture, and I'm fine with there being some American influences on the Suns, but I certainly don't want to see the Suns as Space America. If I had to pick a single influence, I want to call the Suns the Space Angevin Empire! I believe I've also heard 'Space Napoleonic France', which fits to an extent as well.

Anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to stop American players identifying with the Suns in that national way, but the Suns are also British, French, Spanish, Hindu, Russian, Scandinavian, Jewish, and so on. The Outback absorbs a lot of American hillbilly tropes, but, come on, I'm an Australian, you have an entire region of space called the Outback, how do you expect me to picture it?  ;)

Icerose20

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #36 on: 04 November 2018, 04:38:30 »
Well, we know where the great Tetatae War will be fought, in the Outback.   

With thier Allies, the Emus and Roos.

The Fedrats will never know what hit them.

Then we can have Clan Dingo invade, being an offshoot of Clan Coyote.

*******
I wish dome of that Dark Age fiction would hit some fo the lost titles.  Like what happened in Far Country.  Or do a novel about a Zhang He like character going through all of human space, and being an arse about it.   Or what the hell the Mad Max Clans doing back in the Kerensky Cluster.   Or do something like Amazing stories for BAttletech.

Yeah, I know, never going to happen.

(Waiting for the time Lyrans decided to open a six of whoop arse on the Jade lunatics)

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #37 on: 04 November 2018, 07:22:57 »
Fortunately if the Tetatae ever invade, we will defeat them with our supernatural powers, which are also technically canonical.  ;D

Minemech

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #38 on: 04 November 2018, 18:49:35 »
 Just pretend that Victor Steiner-Davion was a Connecticut Yankee, and all makes sense.

abou

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #39 on: 04 November 2018, 19:18:46 »
The FedSuns always had a heavy Western-European bent in regards to imperialism and other tropes. I never got the American vibe everyone talked about. After all, Davion was French and Scottish by descent. By comparison, America from its founding did its best to avoid empire... although that didnt always work out and attitudes overtly changed as time went on.

Also, thanks for staying on topic, guys. Really appreciate it. :thumbsup:

Kovax

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #40 on: 07 November 2018, 11:49:17 »
As pointed out, we could use a little bit more diversity in historical (and future-history) references.  I'd also like to see an occasional misunderstanding of the past (due to incomplete records or simply someone's lack of understanding of history.  I'm suddenly reminded of John Belushi's line" "Remember Pearl Harbor, whoever she was."

To me, the Fed-Suns represented some odd cross between UK monarchy, US capitalism, and Prussian military efficiency (or just writer fiat).  The FWL looked more like an even stranger cross between Austria-Hungary and the US, with some Soviet and Spanish influences.  It's pretty apparent that the US heavily influenced the Terran Hegemony, but the Star League seems more like a twisted attempt to impose Scottish cultural stereotypes on top of it, and the heavy Scottish influence on so much of the setting really gets tiresome after a while.  A little bit of spice adds flavor, too much spice and you just want to gag.

FaithBomb

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #41 on: 19 December 2018, 09:46:12 »
I never felt like the ACW references were too numerous or over the top. I only every really noticed them in some of Blaine Lee Pardoe's work, which I originally chalked up to him living in Virginia, but come to find out, his area of expertise is the First World War. Either way, I never felt like it really detracted from the work in any way.
Some people say I'm a marshmallow...

 

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