Author Topic: That Dark Age Fiction  (Read 8050 times)

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #30 on: 03 November 2018, 10:42:37 »
Warning: responding to posts from August, rambling a bit. Trying very hard to avoid real politics here, please stop me if I go too far.

The US Civil War is not that well known outside North America, you know.

Indeed. From a non-American perspective myself, the only American Civil War battle anyone outside the US is likely to have heard of is Gettysburg, and even then it's just a vague sense of a bloody battle, Confederates charging at prepared lines and getting slaughtered, and so on.

As far as I know, the American Civil War - from my perspective in Australia, at least - is not seen as being massively interesting, especially on the tactical or strategic level. There's a nod to the idea that it's an example of proto-industrialised-war. It's a transitional war: halfway between two very distinct and famous styles of war. Napoleonic-style column warfare was ceasing to work, but it hadn't quite gotten to the point of, say, Omdurman, or even the Russo-Japanese War. Most of what we know about the American Civil War is slaves, Lincoln, Ford's Theatre, and so on. It seems more interesting as a cultural event than as a military one.

In terms of historical prominence and strategic... interestingness, so to speak, I'd compare it unfavourably to the Napoleonic Wars. We know about Napoleon: Austerlitz, Jena, the march into Russia, Trafalgar, Waterloo, and so on. Yet I don't think I've read many BattleTech characters referring to early modern European wars.

I follow.  Plus the history the characters in the 31st century know is written primarily by the Star League and its successors, which in turn are successors of Space America.. and Space America can reasonably be expected to have biases that are relatable to most BT fandom.

That argument always seemed odd, to me, because I would have said that American culture is conspicuously under-represented in BattleTech. British of all sorts (that is, English, Scottish, Irish; alas, I have not managed to find the Space Welsh yet) are very over-represented, as are German/Scandinavian influences (with the Lyrans, Rasalhague, and the Ghost Bears, we have three distinct vaguely Nordic factions). Japanese are a little overrepresented as well: not only do we have the Draconis Combine, the Lyrans, FedSuns, and FWL all have token Space Japan planets.

But I can't really find much in BattleTech that is noticeably Space America. I guess I've heard of the Taurians as Space Texas? But for the most part American influences are limited to Terra, and a few worlds near it. New Dallas is the only one to immediately spring to mind.

My usual assumption was that there is no visible 'American' culture in space because, as a rule, people brought ethnicities, or deep-rooted, millennia-old cultures with them to the stars. To put it another way, the United Kingdom never went to the stars: English or Scottish culture or the like did. Nations didn't go. Cultures did. That might put the younger American culture at a disadvantage? The visibly 'American' worlds, then, are mostly around Terra (since the US was one of the first off the mark into space and settled the best, closest worlds), and were thus devastated in war and didn't end up setting the cultures of the great houses. Then American culture in general didn't have the sheer penetration of Japanese or German or Chinese or Hindu (a religious identity as well, even stronger).

Finally, a lot of it might just be the luck of the draw. Local planetary cultures vary widely, but most large states in BattleTech have made some effort to establish an interplanetary supraculture, so to speak, that is overlaid on local cultures and becomes normative for nobles and interplanetary elites. So that's Japan for the Combine, German for the Commonwealth, Han Chinese for the Capellans, a sort of Arthurian mash-up for the Suns, and, well, the League doesn't really have one, but then, maybe that's one of the reasons they're constantly fighting each other. So maybe there are lots of American-ish local cultures; it's just that none of them ever became a great house superculture.

Given that most of the viewpoint characters in the novels I've read are military officers or personnel, it makes sense they would reference historic battles. There are good reasons why the battles of Hannibal, Caesar, Wellington and so on are studied, and it's unlikely the lessons will have been completely replaced 1000 years in the future. More diversity in references would be good - the Alamo wasn't the only doomed heroic stand for example, Thermopyle would make a perfectly acceptable alternative  ;)

Or he could choose the Taurian 400 at the Corigan Hills.  ;)

A good reference to BattleTech's own history not only helps make the universe seem larger and makes the characters seem less anachronistic, it also helps cross-sell other BattleTech products!  :D

Icerose20

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #31 on: 03 November 2018, 20:51:57 »
Well, the American Civil War is one of the few civil wars that were not a bunch of forces fighting each other, but two organized forces fighting each other. 

Russian Civil war= many protaginsts fighting with and against each other.

French Religious Wars= Many sides fighting with and against each other.

Syrian Civil war= same thing.


Orwell84

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #32 on: 03 November 2018, 22:15:07 »
But I can't really find much in BattleTech that is noticeably Space America. I guess I've heard of the Taurians as Space Texas? But for the most part American influences are limited to Terra, and a few worlds near it. New Dallas is the only one to immediately spring to mind.

Annapolis (Draconis Combine), Manassas (FedSuns) and Old Kentucky (CapCon) were all more distant worlds settled by North Americans. Old Kentucky, in particular, was founded by people who wanted to bring back the 'good old days' of the USA before those puppets of Geneva ruined everything.

Another in-universe reason American culture is so poorly represented in Battletech was the anti-nationalist / pro-Hegemony mindset the Terran government fostered. Since the Americans settled or made the best real estate closest to Terra, that meant the 'Space Americans' were the primary casualty of the Hegemony's anti-nationalist efforts, while the 'Space Japanese', 'Space Chinese' and 'Space Europeans' lived farther out and got to shape their own governments.
All Clan totems are equal but some are more equal than others.

"The Succession Wars solved no problem. Their effects, both immediate and indirect, were either negative or disastrous. Morally subversive, economically destructive, socially degrading, confused in their causes, devious in their course, futile in their results, they are the outstanding example in Spheroid history of meaningless conflict."
The Third Star League's view of the Succession Wars, plagiarised from an ancient Terran historian's judgement of the Thirty Years War.

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #33 on: 03 November 2018, 23:41:44 »
Well, the American Civil War is one of the few civil wars that were not a bunch of forces fighting each other, but two organized forces fighting each other.

Perhaps, but I suspect it's also that it happened at a time where it was much more culturally determinative? The English Civil War or the Spanish Civil War both had two sides, but they did not play a large role in determining what it means to be English or Spanish.

So I'd guess that it's not to do with how much chaos there was, but rather with how much the period contributed to the development of a national self-identity.

Another in-universe reason American culture is so poorly represented in Battletech was the anti-nationalist / pro-Hegemony mindset the Terran government fostered. Since the Americans settled or made the best real estate closest to Terra, that meant the 'Space Americans' were the primary casualty of the Hegemony's anti-nationalist efforts, while the 'Space Japanese', 'Space Chinese' and 'Space Europeans' lived farther out and got to shape their own governments.

Wait, I thought the Hegemony was noticeably in favour of strong local, national cultures?

Or am I mixing it up with the Authentic movement in Traveller?

Icerose20

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #34 on: 04 November 2018, 01:14:57 »
Always felt the Government of the US (And India) was represented by the Free World League, but the people that represented the US was best brought out by the Federated Suns. 

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #35 on: 04 November 2018, 03:17:13 »
The Free Worlds League has a Westminster-style parliament, created by an English aristocrat.  :P

I would tend to agree that the Federated Suns soaked up a number of American tropes, particularly with the whole idea of being crusaders for freedom. I always thought the Davion-Kurita front was, while half based on the idea of knights versus samurai, also half based on the Pacific front of WWII.

Plus I vaguely recall a tendency of authors to 'Americanise' the Suns, so to speak. I believe there was something in the Warrior trilogy where a Kurita character on Terra brought a sushi box as a packed lunch, and a FedSuns character brought a peanut butter and jam sandwich (oh, fine, jelly, silly Americans), which is about the most iconically American packed lunch I can think of. Or I think there was also a bit in Blood of Kerensky where... argh, off the top of my head I think Victor remarked to Hohiro that where the Combine inspires its citizens with duty and honour, the Suns inspires its citizens with the possibility of personal gain. That read to me a lot like an American defending capitalism, and it felt a little out of place to me. The Federated Suns is not a capitalist democracy, and they play the 'duty and honour' card really strongly as well.

Those are tiny examples, but you get the idea. I think the Suns, through being the early protagonist faction, tended to be portrayed as 'home' or 'familiar', and since most of BattleTech's writers, developers, and players were American, that meant the Suns became more American.

That said, I don't really think those ideas were intended. I don't actually think any great house ought to be straightforwardly identifiable with a single culture, and I'm fine with there being some American influences on the Suns, but I certainly don't want to see the Suns as Space America. If I had to pick a single influence, I want to call the Suns the Space Angevin Empire! I believe I've also heard 'Space Napoleonic France', which fits to an extent as well.

Anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to stop American players identifying with the Suns in that national way, but the Suns are also British, French, Spanish, Hindu, Russian, Scandinavian, Jewish, and so on. The Outback absorbs a lot of American hillbilly tropes, but, come on, I'm an Australian, you have an entire region of space called the Outback, how do you expect me to picture it?  ;)

Icerose20

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #36 on: 04 November 2018, 04:38:30 »
Well, we know where the great Tetatae War will be fought, in the Outback.   

With thier Allies, the Emus and Roos.

The Fedrats will never know what hit them.

Then we can have Clan Dingo invade, being an offshoot of Clan Coyote.

*******
I wish dome of that Dark Age fiction would hit some fo the lost titles.  Like what happened in Far Country.  Or do a novel about a Zhang He like character going through all of human space, and being an arse about it.   Or what the hell the Mad Max Clans doing back in the Kerensky Cluster.   Or do something like Amazing stories for BAttletech.

Yeah, I know, never going to happen.

(Waiting for the time Lyrans decided to open a six of whoop arse on the Jade lunatics)

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #37 on: 04 November 2018, 07:22:57 »
Fortunately if the Tetatae ever invade, we will defeat them with our supernatural powers, which are also technically canonical.  ;D

Minemech

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #38 on: 04 November 2018, 18:49:35 »
 Just pretend that Victor Steiner-Davion was a Connecticut Yankee, and all makes sense.

abou

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #39 on: 04 November 2018, 19:18:46 »
The FedSuns always had a heavy Western-European bent in regards to imperialism and other tropes. I never got the American vibe everyone talked about. After all, Davion was French and Scottish by descent. By comparison, America from its founding did its best to avoid empire... although that didnt always work out and attitudes overtly changed as time went on.

Also, thanks for staying on topic, guys. Really appreciate it. :thumbsup:

Kovax

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #40 on: 07 November 2018, 11:49:17 »
As pointed out, we could use a little bit more diversity in historical (and future-history) references.  I'd also like to see an occasional misunderstanding of the past (due to incomplete records or simply someone's lack of understanding of history.  I'm suddenly reminded of John Belushi's line" "Remember Pearl Harbor, whoever she was."

To me, the Fed-Suns represented some odd cross between UK monarchy, US capitalism, and Prussian military efficiency (or just writer fiat).  The FWL looked more like an even stranger cross between Austria-Hungary and the US, with some Soviet and Spanish influences.  It's pretty apparent that the US heavily influenced the Terran Hegemony, but the Star League seems more like a twisted attempt to impose Scottish cultural stereotypes on top of it, and the heavy Scottish influence on so much of the setting really gets tiresome after a while.  A little bit of spice adds flavor, too much spice and you just want to gag.

FaithBomb

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Re: That Dark Age Fiction
« Reply #41 on: 19 December 2018, 09:46:12 »
I never felt like the ACW references were too numerous or over the top. I only every really noticed them in some of Blaine Lee Pardoe's work, which I originally chalked up to him living in Virginia, but come to find out, his area of expertise is the First World War. Either way, I never felt like it really detracted from the work in any way.
Some people say I'm a marshmallow...

 

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