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Title: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: GreekFire on 22 April 2015, 14:53:56
(http://i.imgur.com/tqTS8U6.png)
From TRO:3145 - Mercenaries

If there’s one ProtoMech that made me raise my eyebrows, it’s the Hippogriff. What we got here was a fascinating example of what sort of niche ProtoMechs could specialize in, filling a role that both ‘Mechs and Battle Armor would be hard-pressed to match in such a cheap and efficient package. Even more, it was proof that the Ravens had fully accepted that they were a part of the Inner Sphere - and would now be facing honorless, spheroid opposition. The Hippogriff isn’t made to engage using Zell, hell, it’s barely a true damage-dealing combat unit. The Clans of the Homeworlds would shudder at the sight of this ProtoMech, one that somehow seems more reminiscent of the purely supportive Boggart rather than the similarly-designed Sprite.

Code: [Select]
HIPPOGRIFF
INTRO: 3110
FACTIONS: Raven Alliance, Hell's Horses
WEAPONS: LRM-2 (x2) (48 shots)

         ARMOR                 INTERNAL   
          (2)                    (2)      Arms -> Cored: 24 pts
          / \                    / \      Legs -> Cored: 33 pts
      (4 / 10 \ 4)           (2 / 8 \ 2)  Torso -> Cored: 18 pts
         | | |                  | | |     Legs -> Destroyed: 15 pts
        (  10  )               (  5  )


The first thing to take note of is the Hippogriff’s use of a Partial Wing. The Partial Wing isn’t an efficient choice for most ProtoMechs; it weighs an astronomical 20% of a ProtoMech's total mass, completely eclipsing the weight demands of standard or even improved jump jets. This makes their usage largely wasteful. Even here on the Hippogriff, a standard 5/8 engine (weighing 2000 kg) combined with seven improved jump jets (1400 kg) would be lighter than the 3/5/7 deal that it has going on (for a total of 3600 kg). This inefficiency isn’t always a bad thing, though - and it certainly isn’t in BV-balanced games. Here, the vastly reduced ground speed slashes the Speed Factor BV multiplier from 1.89 down to 1.50, allowing you to field the Hippogriff in situations where it'd otherwise be too expensive.

This 3/5/7 movement is already somewhat remarkable for a ProtoMech (the only other jump-7 ProtoMechs out there are the Satyr 2 and Boggart 2). The Hippogriff's firepower remains unique, but less in regards to its weaponry rather than the amount of ammo it carries. The dual LRM-2s give it the ability to plink at range - nothing more, nothing less. This can be taken advantage of in a few ways; critseeking is always a possibility, while crippling vehicles is a definite option with the high jump letting Hippogriffs shoot at just the right angles to get those juicy motive hits. And frankly, the Hippogriff should be jumping at each and every opportunity. Unlike many other ProtoMechs out there, it has the ammo reserves to fire at increased to-hit numbers, giving it functionality that things like the Hydra 3 can struggle with. What is it bad at? Well, actual combat. Trying to engage 'Mechs or vehicles with standard missiles won't see them deal enough damage to make those Hippogriffs relevant in any situation.

The deep ammo bins demand more discussion. I fully believe that they’re the Hippogriff's greatest strength. You see, having such deep bins allows you to delve into the wonderful world of alternate munitions. No Hippogriff should be fielded without its share of specialty missiles, and in its case, I’d suggest going for Thunder and Smoke rounds. The Thunder rounds will allow you to place a total of ten different (miniature) minefields per round; while they won’t deal much damage individually, they can easily saturate an area to create a threat-zone that infantry, vehicles and light ‘Mechs will at least hesitate crossing. Don’t forget that the Thunder rounds can also be combined - if there’s a particularly vital patch of land that you have to deny, a full Point’s worth of firepower will quickly create a 20-point minefield that will threaten death to any infantry platoon that missteps.

The second option, Smoke rounds, are massive force multipliers. Here the Hippogriff is an excellent support unit for other ProtoMechs; a single Hippogriff Point within a larger ProtoMech Star can provide enough smoke to help its allies close, or strategic smoke to increase to-hit modifiers once combat is joined. That same Point of Hippogriffs can work alongside a friendly Star of ‘Mechs, guaranteeing that the Star will have full smoke coverage every round. Of course, full points aren’t required either; throwing two Hippogriffs in a single Point will give the remaining three ProtoMechs an additional +1 to-hit, making them even harder to put down. This is where the Hippogriff's speed becomes truly useful: it is able to keep up with the many quick and mobile units within the Raven Touman. Units like the Gorgon or Centaur will ultimately fall behind the more agile 'Mechs the Ravens typically field.

Other alternate ammo choices exist, but will usually be more situational or depend on whether you're allowing IS missile types with Clan launchers or not. Another useful Clan option is carrying a few Incendiary LRM rounds for some quick fire-starting options, giving you some added area-denial against infantry or other heat-wary units. Just make sure your own ProtoMechs aren't hampered by these fires, and you'll be good to go. Combine all of these ammo options with the high-jump and decent armor of the Hippogriff and you have a low-priority unit that your opponents will be loath wasting firepower to put down. Experiment, whether it's by fielding a few or many, but give all of those missile types a try. Most importantly, make sure to strike fear into the hearts and minds of the Combine, FedSuns and Pirate forces that have no idea how to fight against a ProtoMech-heavy force.

(http://i.imgur.com/RCtiEbi.png)

Iron Wind Metals: https://store.ironwindmetals.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=10092
Master Unit List: http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=Hippogriff (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=Hippogriff)
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Maingunnery on 22 April 2015, 14:59:53

I am a Raven fan, however when I first saw the art I went: NOPE.....  #P

Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Fallen_Raven on 22 April 2015, 15:51:09
My first thought on seeing the Hippogriff was to go Demolisher hunting. The combination of Jump movement and range would allow a Point to troll ambush tanks easily, and the ammo will last long enough that you're almost guaranteed to park it! The low cost makes the trade a very favorable one BV wise, especially since you should have enough missiles left over to contribute wen your finished.

My next thought was about how a Point was basically a super LB-X for AA work. While you might not get the accuracy boost, the range is still very applicable. The potential of 10 hits on a fighter is always helpful, and the clusters mean you can exploit someone else's shots to great effect.

I'll admit that I didn't consider alternate ammo when I initially look at the Hippogrif, but its certainly an good option. A full Point can lay a heck of a single minefield, or annoying ones in a lot of hexes. But the chance to salvo 10 light smoke hexes in a single turn is the part that really gets interesting. You can break LOS between you and a specific target at will, even to the point of blinding C3 spotters! Speaking of C3, loading up with some Sea Fox accquired ARAD missiles will make Spheriods thing twice about dezgra tech!
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Maelwys on 22 April 2015, 16:31:56
I always forget about alternate munitions when it comes to ProtoMechs, I'm not sure why, but it could make the Hippogriff much more palatable. You don't have to worry about trying to burn through all the ammo on hitting targets, you can use it to harass your opponent and support your forces.

Though I have to admit, I do find it amusing that its the same speed as the Boggart 2.

I do think the Hippogriff is a good place to ask this. Are ProtoMechs on the way out? We only have two active factions that use them (Hell's Horses and Snow Ravens), and it seems like its not the greatest use of space to include units that only two factions use. Not to mention updated rules and equipment for them. And unless I'm mistaken, we don't have any new technologies from the 3140s for ProtoMechs.  Add to that the "newest" ProtoMech is the Hippogriff, and that's 35 years old at this point in the timeline, and the next newest is the Svartalfa, which is nearing 60 years of age.

So are they on their way out?
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Fallen_Raven on 22 April 2015, 17:35:41
I doubt there on their way out, they're just a niche unit. Much like Dropships, conventional fighters, and blue water ships, Protos can survive on a smaller number of new units.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: worktroll on 22 April 2015, 17:39:07
Someone's momma got frightened by a Shrike, methinks. Suprised the Jade Falcons haven't Trialled the Ravens for copyright infringement ;)
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: GreekFire on 22 April 2015, 17:41:14
I do think the Hippogriff is a good place to ask this. Are ProtoMechs on the way out? We only have two active factions that use them (Hell's Horses and Snow Ravens), and it seems like its not the greatest use of space to include units that only two factions use. Not to mention updated rules and equipment for them. And unless I'm mistaken, we don't have any new technologies from the 3140s for ProtoMechs.  Add to that the "newest" ProtoMech is the Hippogriff, and that's 35 years old at this point in the timeline, and the next newest is the Svartalfa, which is nearing 60 years of age.

So are they on their way out?

I don't think so. ProtoMechs were never really a Spheroid Clan thing, but the two that do use them (the Ravens and the Horses) both have good reasons to keep them around: they recycle aerospace phenotype dropouts, and are an easy way to increase ground-based Toumans without needing to invest in more or larger Sibkos (although I'm not actually sure if the Horses still use the aero phenotype or if they've switched to the ProtoMech one). I don't think the TRO page-count thing is much of an issue. The recent 3145 TROs were chock-full of designs unique to a single faction (especially possible due to the new factional format), so the unique nature of the Protos is not a big deal.

While technologically, things might appear stagnant, you have to realize that the Ravens haven't developed a new 'Mech since...geeze, I don't even know. Sure, they've upgraded a few with new 'tech, but they weren't really the Clan to develop said new 'tech in the first place. So maybe it's just that the Ravens have had industrial troubles more than anything else. And you have to remember, this is the first time the Partial Wing has actually been mounted on a ProtoMech - ever. As for the Horses, its true that their last surge of ProtoMech development was in the 3080s. But that doesn't mean that the technology is dead to them - just that it's less of a priority. Which makes complete sense.

Now, where I think ProtoMechs might really get a resurgence is with the Homeworld Clans. You've got three Clans that still use them, including one that fields them to an impressive degree - even going so far as to create entire Clusters with nothing but Protos. Then there's the fact that the already resource-starved Homeworlds have been devastated to the point where what remains is even more valuable, making ProtoMechs an attractive alternative to expensive BattleMechs (if we go off of the original ProtoMech fluff, at least). But who knows? Only time will tell.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Scotty on 22 April 2015, 17:48:09
I wish the Falcons used protos exactly so I can field a couple points of these guys in my fledgling Supernova Trinary.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: worktroll on 22 April 2015, 17:56:32
Do it anyway. Life's too short to not paint some Hippogriffs in Falcon colours, and the Falcons are aweseome enough to borrow the Davion Fiat Stick occasionally. O0

Then post pics :)
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Scotty on 22 April 2015, 18:12:12
The minis need to exist first, WT.  ;D
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: GreekFire on 22 April 2015, 18:24:16
*cough cough everyone should vote for the Hippogriff next round of fan financing cough cough*
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: worktroll on 22 April 2015, 18:27:24
Well, repurpose a DA Shrike. If anyone questions its size, just point at the Targe ...  O:-)
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 22 April 2015, 18:49:57
Back in the day when ProtoMech's were first introduced, I scratched my head and went NOPE. Even with the second block of Proto's, my reaction was MEH.  This little beast, got me to start looking at Proto's seriously.  Plus it just LOOKS cool!
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 22 April 2015, 19:36:55
Well, with the amount of material regularly coming out about the homeworlds, Prot's sure don't get the spotlight.
Though I suppose I already voiced myself on the matter.  ;D
This is a nice design, I didn't even know Protos could mount that much endurance. Though sure, technically nothing stops them.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 22 April 2015, 20:09:07
Well, with the amount of material regularly coming out about the homeworlds, Prot's sure don't get the spotlight.
Though I suppose I already voiced myself on the matter.  ;D
This is a nice design, I didn't even know Protos could mount that much endurance. Though sure, technically nothing stops them.
with most proto's the issue is not ammo endurance, it's armor endurance.. they generally don't have the mobility or range to play keep away from an opponent that long, as as a result their armor gets knocked down fast.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: cold1 on 22 April 2015, 20:33:43

Now, where I think ProtoMechs might really get a resurgence is with the Homeworld Clans. You've got three Clans that still use them, including one that fields them to an impressive degree - even going so far as to create entire Clusters with nothing but Protos. Then there's the fact that the already resource-starved Homeworlds have been devastated to the point where what remains is even more valuable, making ProtoMechs an attractive alternative to expensive BattleMechs (if we go off of the original ProtoMech fluff, at least). But who knows? Only time will tell.

Yes

Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Fletch on 22 April 2015, 20:34:25
Well, with the amount of material regularly coming out about the homeworlds, Prot's sure don't get the spotlight.
Though I suppose I already voiced myself on the matter.  ;D

Cold1, is that you in disguise ;) ( apologies UnLimiTeD )

I read the blurb in the TRO and didn't really take any notice of the ammo bin size till a re-read.

Following the Spirit of TT I am thinking some semi-guide ammo could be fun.  Tie this in with some tag and Arrow IV and you would be dropping the big bomb, followed by the crit-seekers.  Sometimes I surprise myself. 
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: cold1 on 22 April 2015, 20:43:52
Cold1, is that you in disguise ;) ( apologies UnLimiTeD )
 

Nope not me.

I'm not sure I like this one.  I guess if your an abjured clanner and you want a proto... it's this or the Horse one. 
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Weirdo on 22 April 2015, 21:05:50
I've only faced this thing in combat once, and damn, were they annoying! They remind me of the strategy many people(myself included) espouse for keeping "slow" light 'mechs and other fragile things alive - give 'em something better to shoot at.

Now when I speak of this, I'm usually taking about putting something tougher and nastier right in the enemy's face instead of stuff as small as a Hippogriff, but remember: well-used Hippogriffs will piss you off. They won't kill you, but between that constant rain of light fire and their ability to be exactly where you don't want them to be at any given time, part of you is almost certain to fixate on them and want them gone. If you can pull off this response in your opponents with your own Hippogriffs, you can move them in ways that make them *look* like good targets, but are still unlikely to get hit. Fire drawn in this manner is fire that won't hit your other stuff that has neither the speed to evade serious attention, nor the armor to survive it. (Ullers ome to mind, but local Alliance players can probably name plenty of Raven-y things that could easily turn the tide of a battle if people would just stop shooting the blasted things for a few moments! >:(
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: ScannerError on 22 April 2015, 22:31:25
I'm a bit surprised there isn't a model with two SRM 2s and 400kg of ammo.  Would lack the ammo endurance, but have twice the punch and critseeking. 

That said, this looks like an annoying one to fight.  Not a very scary one (a point only matches a LRM 20 in output), but it's fast, can take most hits that will land, and has plenty of range (and no minimums).  Seems like it would be very easy to distract your opponents with their plinking, while your real threats do the killing. 
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Scotty on 22 April 2015, 23:24:02
The lack of variants is (right now) what I'm most disappointed in.  1600 kg is a pretty nice chunk for an alternate weapons suite that could cover the LRM's short comings.  AP Gauss fixes absolutely everything, but I'm not certain it's even needed here.  A flamer and a couple machine guns (infantry are going to have a tough time hitting you if you've got a +4 TMM regardless of distance), or a few SRM tubes, or even something silly like an ER Medium (I don't have my books in front of me, can't judge the viability of that one) would be a great addition.

Also, every Shrike I get is going to remain a Shrike, because I love those things.  If there ever was a good time to be a Falcon, now is it.  Except Malvina.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 22 April 2015, 23:33:07

I dunno.  It's a creative unit, and certainly pushes the boundaries of proto design, which is all good.  But...

The Hippo's combination of light armor and small engine means that it will tend to stay at longer ranges to avoid enemy fire and jump the whole time it's doing so to ensure defender movement modifiers.  But that increases the Hippo's attacker movement (+3) and range (+2 to +4) modifiers to the point (+5 to +7 total before target movement and terrain) that it's rarely going to hit when firing directly on enemy units.  (Barring an elite proto pilot, of course, but you're not going to waste your elite proto pilots on the Hippo.)  And when the Hippo does hit, a couple LRMs deliver almost nothing in terms of damage.

That leaves the aforementioned specialty LRM munitions that fire on hexes instead of enemy units.  But is a unit that costs 231 BV2 points the best way to lightly mine or smoke a couple hexes?  A vehicular grenade launcher providing smoke cover costs 15 BV2, a chaff dispenser providing similar cover costs 19 BV2, and a mine dispenser delivering standard mines costs 8 BV2 (I think).  The Hippo's ability to deliver smoke or mines remotely is valuable, but it's not 100x more valuable than just mounting these inexpensive launchers/dispensers on friendlies.

In fact, a point of Hippos comes to 1155 BV2 points.  I can almost buy two, Succession Wars-era Hunter tanks for that amount.  (And the Ravens can probably salvage some old Hunters in the Outworlds -- its on the Periphery General MUL list.)  The Hippos will be harder to hit and can spread their LRMs around, but I think I'd rather have the Hippos with double the LRMs (40 instead of 20), the ability to take some hits (12 tons of armor total), and enough speed (5/8) to keep up with typical Clan cavalry.  If I was a Raven Khan, I'd rely on my Clan's scavenging abilities and/or my Outworlds allies to deliver on the roles and missions of the Hippo, and put my protomech resources into something other than the Hippo.

Again, the Hippogriff gets lots of points for originality and stretching the limits.  But it's hard to see taking it as either a direct harassment unit or indirect support unit, especially given other options.

The lack of variants is (right now) what I'm most disappointed in.  1600 kg is a pretty nice chunk for an alternate weapons suite that could cover the LRM's short comings.

Seconded.

My 2 Kerenskies... YMMV.

Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: GreekFire on 23 April 2015, 00:48:26
The lack of variants is (right now) what I'm most disappointed in.  1600 kg is a pretty nice chunk for an alternate weapons suite that could cover the LRM's short comings.  AP Gauss fixes absolutely everything, but I'm not certain it's even needed here.  A flamer and a couple machine guns (infantry are going to have a tough time hitting you if you've got a +4 TMM regardless of distance), or a few SRM tubes, or even something silly like an ER Medium (I don't have my books in front of me, can't judge the viability of that one) would be a great addition.

Also, every Shrike I get is going to remain a Shrike, because I love those things.  If there ever was a good time to be a Falcon, now is it.  Except Malvina.

I thought about potential variants as I was writing this up...the first thing I considered were SRMs for their own specialty ammo and a change of pace, just like ScannerError suggested. The second was to swap the weapons for twin Micro Pulse Lasers, but it was hard to feel too excited about that one.

Flamers I'm much less enthusiastic about, their weight demands on ProtoMechs are absolutely atrocious and make them bottom-tier in my eyes. The ER Medium can't really work either, it weighs a total of 2250 kg that simply isn't available unless you're willing to drop the Partial Wing. Something else that could be interesting on something like the Hippogriff would be a Remote Sensor Dispensor - Points of them would be pretty interesting (and dirt cheap) ways to deploy those sensors.

That leaves the aforementioned specialty LRM munitions that fire on hexes instead of enemy units.  But is a unit that costs 231 BV2 points the best way to lightly mine or smoke a couple hexes?  A vehicular grenade launcher providing smoke cover costs 15 BV2, a chaff dispenser providing similar cover costs 19 BV2, and a mine dispenser delivering standard mines costs 8 BV2 (I think).  The Hippo's ability to deliver smoke or mines remotely is valuable, but it's not 100x more valuable than just mounting these inexpensive launchers/dispensers on friendlies.

This entirely depends on whether you favor custom units or not, and even then...it's definitely up for debate. There are hardly any units that field VGLs, Chaff Pods or Mine Dispensers. This alone makes the alternate munitions for an extremely cheap LRM unit a much more viable option, but it's the greater range of the Hippogriff that pulls it even more ahead. Those VGLs and Chaff/Mine dispensers have extremely limited range and can really only help the units they're mounted on (or, for the mine dispenser, can only really lay mines ahead of time in order to be at its most effective). The Hippogriff doesn't have that limitation - and that's why it excels as a force multiplier.

And if we're dragging BV into the void, an LRM-2 with 24 shots costs something in the range of 25-26 BV. That's about the same as a VGL and Mine Dispenser combined, while the LRM-2 is able to accomplish both roles at better ranges, for a longer period of time. But you're paying for more than just that, and for good reason. You want to be mobile.

Quote
In fact, a point of Hippos comes to 1155 BV2 points.  I can almost buy two, Succession Wars-era Hunter tanks for that amount.  (And the Ravens can probably salvage some old Hunters in the Outworlds -- its on the Periphery General MUL list.)  The Hippos will be harder to hit and can spread their LRMs around, but I think I'd rather have the Hippos with double the LRMs (40 instead of 20), the ability to take some hits (12 tons of armor total), and enough speed (5/8) to keep up with typical Clan cavalry.  If I was a Raven Khan, I'd rely on my Clan's scavenging abilities and/or my Outworlds allies to deliver on the roles and missions of the Hippo, and put my protomech resources into something other than the Hippo.

You could buy the Hunters, definitely. And they'd keep up with traditional Clan cavalry, sure. But they won't keep up with the things the Ravens have been pumping out of late. Look at some of their most recent inventions: the Stinger IIC, WSP-3A Wasp, Dark Crow 1 through 4, Shadow Hawk IIC 7, Goshawk II...and not a single new Raven Heavy in the 3145 RATs. I'd say that they're shifting towards a lighter Touman, and this is where the Hippogriff works much better: it can keep up with those 'Mechs. And of course, the other advantage is how the speed and maneuverability of the Hippo reduces its threat priority (especially since the overall weapons payload is spread throughout the entire Point), while the slower and more easily hit Hunters just beg for a small burst of firepower to quickly take them out of the fight.

Quote
Again, the Hippogriff gets lots of points for originality and stretching the limits.  But it's hard to see taking it as either a direct harassment unit or indirect support unit, especially given other options.

Oh, you shouldn't be using it for indirect fire support. Not in my eyes, at least. Direct harassment does work brilliantly against conventional forces, though, and the 7 jumping MP does always give you the option of throwing them either in front or behind your enemies if you even need a makeshift wall. And the nicest thing about the Hippo is the number of options you have; you can choose to take 8 standard rounds per launcher, with an additional 4 Thunder and Smoke Rounds, or anything else as you so choose. Then you can either combine them all into one area, spread them out, shoot one or two and save the rest, etc...this flexibility is unmatched by most other LRM-boats out there.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: mbear on 23 April 2015, 07:47:49
The lack of variants is (right now) what I'm most disappointed in.  1600 kg is a pretty nice chunk for an alternate weapons suite that could cover the LRM's short comings.  AP Gauss fixes absolutely everything, but I'm not certain it's even needed here.  A flamer and a couple machine guns (infantry are going to have a tough time hitting you if you've got a +4 TMM regardless of distance), or a few SRM tubes, or even something silly like an ER Medium (I don't have my books in front of me, can't judge the viability of that one) would be a great addition.

Also, every Shrike I get is going to remain a Shrike, because I love those things.  If there ever was a good time to be a Falcon, now is it.  Except Malvina.
How about a version with an MML or ATM system? (Can protos use ATMs?) A single MML-3 or MML-5 could launch SRMs and LRMs so you can take advantage of every Inner Sphere special munition. If that's no good for honor reasons, an ATM-3 could be useful as a direct line combatant instead of the support role of the Primary variant.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: wantec on 23 April 2015, 10:46:32
Protos can't use ATMs, but they can use a Fusillade, which is basically a two-shot ATM3 that can use iATM munitions. But a single one of those is 1500kg, so that wouldn't be a very good swap.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Maingunnery on 23 April 2015, 11:05:16

What about a Micro Pulse Laser variant (1 in each arm)?
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: cold1 on 23 April 2015, 11:16:23
Protos can't use ATMs, but they can use a Fusillade, which is basically a two-shot ATM3 that can use iATM munitions. But a single one of those is 1500kg, so that wouldn't be a very good swap.

Do the IS clans even have access to the technology anyway?  iATMs are homeworld exclusive, I never saw it that included the ammo and fusillade as well.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: wantec on 23 April 2015, 12:13:01
Do the IS clans even have access to the technology anyway?  iATMs are homeworld exclusive, I never saw it that included the ammo and fusillade as well.
I don't know if that's even been decided or stated either way. It could be assumed they have some, but there's nothing for sure.

As far as the Fusillade, it's possible as well. The deployment section of the Hobgoblin says that it was used heavily on Etienne's Sanctuary, and that it's possible that enough copies of the Hobgoblin were salvaged to inspire and help the Horse with the Svartalfa. The Sprite deployment section mentions something similar, that it may have inspired the Horses and the Svartalfa. Then in TRO:Prototypes the Horses field the Procyon Quad, the Minotaur P2 (magnetic clamps), and the Svartalfa (ultra proto, glider proto). Those chassis options and the MCL all came from the homeworlds and the Fusillade and iATM did as well. Personally I can see the IS Clans having all of the Society tech, even the new units, but for whatever reason we haven't seen them used.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: GreekFire on 23 April 2015, 12:21:50
EDIT: completely repeated what wantec said, didn't see his post.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Maingunnery on 23 April 2015, 12:28:43
Personally I can see the IS Clans having all of the Society tech, even the new units, but for whatever reason we haven't seen them used.
I can see them keeping that tech in reserve for emergencies.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: anime ninja on 23 April 2015, 13:38:15
Protos can't use ATMs, but they can use a Fusillade, which is basically a two-shot ATM3 that can use iATM munitions. But a single one of those is 1500kg, so that wouldn't be a very good swap.

What is the reason that protos can't use ATMs?

Anyone know?
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Crow on 23 April 2015, 14:14:50
You could make a 3x StreakLRM1 version if you halve the ammo. You couldn't use specialty ammo but then you would have no good reason not to  jump around at +4 TMM all day long
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 23 April 2015, 17:06:24
What is the reason that protos can't use ATMs?

Anyone know?
basically boils down to "no one got the bugs worked out in time"
odds are the society dragged their feet in that regard.. though even they only managed to produce the Fusillade, which is overly heavy and under ammo'd.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 23 April 2015, 18:15:00
Well, they can always take an IS mech-scale MML-Launcher and carry it in a backpack.  ^-^
Given the minimums, might as well shoot it in an arc.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: JadedFalcon on 24 April 2015, 00:21:34
Hmm... so you're saying first you block line of sight, then mine the hexes that the opponent can no longer see?

I'm not that familiar with Snow Ravens in the Dark Age, but if you're ditching Zell then why not add some Narc-compatible LRMs and pair them with something like a Kitfox D or Stormcrow D? Boosts the direct fire cluster roll and aids in indirect fire against a tagged enemy that's trying to get out of the rain.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: marauder648 on 24 April 2015, 03:43:19
I can see them keeping that tech in reserve for emergencies.

Its possible, but i'd say that save the Horses and Ravens the other IS Clans view Proto's as being failures, this is shown by the Falcons using proto scaled weapons on garrison mechs and the like.  The Wolves didn't seem to take notice of them whilst the very conservative Bears seem to have disdained them from the offset (and lacked the aerospace phenotype to start a breeding program.) and just went with MOAR Elementals!

If they are used its probably on a very limited basis and basically until those units are simply out of commission and then not replaced.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Colt Ward on 25 April 2015, 02:31:59
Re Hunters vs Hippos-

The proto point can also cover more ground faster with a further spread than a pair of tracked 5/8 tanks . . . and they will get stuck at the river's edge.  Consider they can also punt these things out of Arcadias for Orbital Drops or some other fancy insertions makes them a much more offensive oriented unit.

I am glad someone brought up using the MML- lose the Clan no minimum advantage but for the ability to throw minefields, inferno rounds and Semi-G ammo from someone bouncing around like this seems like a fair trade.  I was wondering about something like a Piranha, stack it with LMGs to backstab, critseek or mow down militia.

While I appreciate the review . . . what about how it will fare against the expected opposition, the Dragon?  and perhaps who it actually went up against- Davion?
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: GreekFire on 25 April 2015, 10:43:05
Hmm... so you're saying first you block line of sight, then mine the hexes that the opponent can no longer see?

I'm not that familiar with Snow Ravens in the Dark Age, but if you're ditching Zell then why not add some Narc-compatible LRMs and pair them with something like a Kitfox D or Stormcrow D? Boosts the direct fire cluster roll and aids in indirect fire against a tagged enemy that's trying to get out of the rain.

I'm not actually sure whether Narc rounds weigh double normal what normal rounds do (asked in the rules questions forum to find out), but even if they don't it seems like a bit of a waste to focus on indirect fire when you've got so many other tactical options with the 7 jumping MP and low BV cost.

I am glad someone brought up using the MML- lose the Clan no minimum advantage but for the ability to throw minefields, inferno rounds and Semi-G ammo from someone bouncing around like this seems like a fair trade.  I was wondering about something like a Piranha, stack it with LMGs to backstab, critseek or mow down militia.

As it stands...all IS 'tech is non-compatible with ProtoMechs. Hopefully this changes one day. The LMG option isn't as viable, though - after the Partial Wing, the Hippogriff only have three slots to play around with.

Quote
While I appreciate the review . . . what about how it will fare against the expected opposition, the Dragon?  and perhaps who it actually went up against- Davion?

ProtoMechs would be devastating against any of the combined arms formations of the Inner Sphere. I'm a strong believer that ProtoMechs hard-counter vehicles when played correctly, and the Hippogriff is most definitely no exception.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: JadedFalcon on 25 April 2015, 21:51:14
I'm not actually sure whether Narc rounds weigh double normal what normal rounds do (asked in the rules questions forum to find out), but even if they don't it seems like a bit of a waste to focus on indirect fire when you've got so many other tactical options with the 7 jumping MP and low BV cost.

I meant for indirect fire not to be a goal, but an added bonus. The cluster improvement for direct fire seemed much more important.

Good catch on the missile weight (http://"http://bg.battletech.com/forums/total-warfare/protomechs-and-tw-alternate-munitions/"). The wording does make it sound like the missiles would be heavier, which would be sad for all missile-toting protos, not just the Hippogriff.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: GreekFire on 25 April 2015, 22:54:49
I meant for indirect fire not to be a goal, but an added bonus. The cluster improvement for direct fire seemed much more important.

Good catch on the missile weight (http://"http://bg.battletech.com/forums/total-warfare/protomechs-and-tw-alternate-munitions/"). The wording does make it sound like the missiles would be heavier, which would be sad for all missile-toting protos, not just the Hippogriff.

Right, and I don't think it's ever been written outside of TacOps either. I checked the older Combat Equipment and BMR, didn't see anything...but I think my first assumption game from the older Orc entry and how they were noted as carrying full loads of infernos.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Scotty on 25 April 2015, 23:11:41
The Hippogriff is an odd sort in Alpha Strike.  Its low damage output translates pretty similarly, with a 0* damage rating across the board.  That said, you do get damage all the way out to long range, even if it's pretty inconsistent.  Where the shine comes is in the movement and the points cost.  As you may expect, with one armor point and that little damage, even the hilarious 14"j movement only brings the Hippogriff up to a whopping 9 points.  It's cheap enough that you can bring one at Skill 0 for 17 points, making it a contender in the same role as the ASN-21 Assassin (17 points), SDR-5V Spider (16 points), FLE-17 Flea (17 points), and  CDA-2A Cicada (16 points).

Now, in case that comparison doesn't ring the bells it should, that's for a Skill 0 Hippogriff.  At the same time, the Hippogriff is capable of keeping up an absolutely ridiculous +5 TMM (+4 from 14"j, +1 from being a Proto) all game long.  That means that a Hippogriff could very well be looking at taking shots against a fairly typical target (+2 TMM) at long range (+4) after jumping (+2) at 8s to hit.  that may not sound like much, but combined with the IF0* special, it's the kind of unit that starts the game harassing your units, and then never ever stops.

I want a couple points of them.  Badly.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: marauder648 on 26 April 2015, 01:17:01
Sadly i've never used Proto's but I love the idea behind them.  Looking at folks thoughts here about the Hippo says to me that its not a fighter, its a harasser/troll.  Sure they don't hit hard, but you can't quite ignore them either, and then you've got to 'waste' shots trying to hit a small target thats jumping about like a kid that's just drunk 4 cans of redbull followed by downing 2lb of popping candy.  I wish that the original proto's had shared some of the Hipp's looks, they were designed to be intimidating and scary, yet they were all smooth corners and edges with scary faces.  The Hipp looks ugly, it looks mean. 
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 April 2015, 01:34:33
Big thing to remember with protos is they are not line units but rather skirmishers, generally they work best in battles with objectives than the typical 'last man standing' set up.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 26 April 2015, 13:01:52
I want to make Harry Potter jokes every time I see this thing.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: GreekFire on 26 April 2015, 13:38:32
I want to make Harry Potter jokes every time I see this thing.

I-I'm a what?
You're a wizard, Star Commander.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Maingunnery on 26 April 2015, 14:37:37
I-I'm a what?
You're a wizard, Star Commander.
Only you can defeat the Dark Lord Davion.  ;)
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 26 April 2015, 14:59:06
He Who Shall Not Be Mentioned?
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 26 April 2015, 15:41:15
HeroChip?   :P
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 April 2015, 20:12:12
You know the merc unit we are missing?

Protos!  Just imagine the evilness you could get up to with some of them . . .
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 26 April 2015, 21:21:17
I can see their tagline now: "Will work for drugs."




Considering the god-complex proto pilots tend to develop, what do you call them?  The Aesir?  The Olympians?  The Tuatha de Danann?
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: marauder648 on 27 April 2015, 06:08:44
I like the idea of them calling themselves the Asir.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Empyrus on 27 April 2015, 07:02:05
Wouldn't hire them for long term contracts.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Jellico on 27 April 2015, 07:43:12
One of these days I am going to write a fan fic about a backward world where a group of Protomechs have imagined themselves as gods and periodically demand human sacrifice to reincarnate their members.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Maingunnery on 27 April 2015, 07:47:03
One of these days I am going to write a fan fic about a backward world where a group of Protomechs have imagined themselves as gods and periodically demand human sacrifice to reincarnate their members.
Will they also fly in giant pyramids?  ;)
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Empyrus on 27 April 2015, 08:51:03
Will they also fly in giant pyramids?  ;)
Pyramid-shaped "spheroid" DropShip? Probably hellishly difficult to fly in atmosphere and doesn't have any practical advantages but why not?
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Maverick__ on 27 April 2015, 20:02:28
I haven't been keeping up with all the new designs, let alone the protomech designs, but I really like how this one looks.... much better than that dragon looking protomech.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: marauder648 on 28 April 2015, 07:07:19
One of these days I am going to write a fan fic about a backward world where a group of Protomechs have imagined themselves as gods and periodically demand human sacrifice to reincarnate their members.

(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/264/200/acb.jpg)

You know you want to!
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Prince of Darkness on 28 April 2015, 13:36:58
One of these days I am going to write a fan fic about a backward world where a group of Protomechs have imagined themselves as gods and periodically demand human sacrifice to reincarnate their members.

Twist ending- it works.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Wrangler on 03 May 2015, 21:27:06
It's too bad this thing was made into a ProtoMech Glider, that would added more interesting angle to it.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: GreekFire on 03 May 2015, 21:50:55
It's too bad this thing was made into a ProtoMech Glider, that would added more interesting angle to it.

Gotta be an Ultra Proto for that, unfortunately.
Title: Re: ProtoMech of the Week - Hippogriff
Post by: Elcor05 on 12 June 2015, 10:42:36
Two variant ideas (with the disclaimer that while I love the idea of them, I am bad at protomechs, both in using and in building.)

1) Drop the armor by a point and put in an AP Gauss and a Micro Pulse Laser. Shoot all the Infantry. Win.

2) Put in a Heavy Small Laser. The range is shite, but you can either put in something like SRM 1 with 5 shots (reducing the armor by two points) to go with it OR put the rest of the points into armor, with full points on the head, arms, and legs and 13/16 on the torso. It'd still be as maneuverable, would take more of a pounding, and when it got close could do a decent amount of damage for something that small.