Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?

[SCC]

The Savannah Master seems to be the only thing that uses a 25 rating power plant, could be wrong, but I also don't see how it applies

[Dave Talley]

I  believe he was referring to the Savannah Master fluff where they are created by the finding of a buttload of SL era power plants

[billtfor3]

The founder of the company also found a manufactor for the engines in the 3030s.

[SCC]

Yes, so I doubt that finding a engine to go into VTOL's will be all that hard especially if you can use the same engine as a low demand 'Mech (at this point the Lyran decision to stop producing light 'Mechs makes sense, save what ever it is that makes 'Mechs hard to produce for heavy weight (50+ tons) and use the smaller engines VTOL or Hovercraft scouts, which you can carry more of on a drop ship and are cheaper to replace

[Istal_Devalis]

The Urbanmech is still a mech. No one's going to shut down an Urbanmech line to build a different line because, at the time, no one could build a new mech line. The Savanah Master was a special case, and used an engine of a size that was completely useless for mechs. It should not be used as a general rule of thumb as it was very much an exception to the fluff of the period...ie, Fusion Engines were rare and usually stripped from vehicles for mechs.

If a fusion powered, 3rd Succession war VTOL is what you want to use in your campaign, no one's gonna stop you. But the fluff of the time says it's probably not gonna be done in anything except someone's private game.

[Diablo48]

The Urbanmech is still a mech. No one's going to shut down an Urbanmech line to build a different line because, at the time, no one could build a new mech line. The Savanah Master was a special case, and used an engine of a size that was completely useless for mechs. It should not be used as a general rule of thumb as it was very much an exception to the fluff of the period...ie, Fusion Engines were rare and usually stripped from vehicles for mechs.

If a fusion powered, 3rd Succession war VTOL is what you want to use in your campaign, no one's gonna stop you. But the fluff of the time says it's probably not gonna be done in anything except someone's private game.

It is also worth noting that according to the fluff, the fusion engines for the Savannah Masters were found, not manufactured and that it was noted as unlikely that another source could be found after the initial 2000 were used up.  Thus in any VTOL were to be made, it would need to be built from a similar large stock of small engines which did not fit into either the Savannah Maser or UrbanMech, because if that were the case it would be more cost effective to sell them to manufacture or repair more of the existing designs.

[ianargent]

That was more or less what I was referring to; that the Savannah Master required the designer to hit the lottery. It also required a power plant that was of no conceivable use to a mech, filling a rule where, quite frankly, a mech is a bit overkill (recon).
Also note that additional production of the Savannah Master past the initial run didn't occur until well after the dissemination of the Helm memory core, with the Omni 25 not being put back into production until 3037.

[ianargent]

Though, if you could procure a 50-rated fusion engine, a Warrior variant with a PPC is in-universe feasible, since that's not quite big enough to drive an urbanmech. The trick would be getting someone to build them.

[Fireangel]

Well, a 25-rated SFE can power a 5-ton VTOL at 15/23 MP; a Ferret with a Medium Laser, so to speak. Hm... 11-ton VTOL at 10/15...

[ianargent]

Well, a 25-rated SFE can power a 5-ton VTOL at 15/23 MP; a Ferret with a Medium Laser, so to speak. Hm... 11-ton VTOL at 10/15...

If a single medium laser makes a gunship, then quite frankly the Warrior qualified. The stand-off range of the AC/2 makes at least as effectiveas a hypothetical laser Ferret.

[ShadowRaven]

personally, I would rather the Warrior. If the map is large enough to make a single medium laser vtol useful because of movement mods, it is big enough to make long range plinking just as, if not more useful.

[ianargent]

personally, I would rather the Warrior. If the map is large enough to make a single medium laser vtol useful because of movement mods, it is big enough to make long range plinking just as, if not more useful.

As would I. If nothing else, the cone in which an AC/2 can get rear armor hits contains many more hexes than that for a medium laser...

[Fireangel]

If a single medium laser makes a gunship, then quite frankly the Warrior qualified. The stand-off range of the AC/2 makes at least as effectiveas a hypothetical laser Ferret.

Oh, no. You misunderstood; my post was in relation to the 25-rated topic being discussed; I mentioned the ML in order to not waste the heat sinks.

I'd never, ever, advocate using the ML as a VTOL "gunship's" primary armament; if you read my previous posts on this thread that should be amply obvious.

[SCC]

The Urbanmech is still a mech. No one's going to shut down an Urbanmech line to build a different line because, at the time, no one could build a new mech line. The Savanah Master was a special case, and used an engine of a size that was completely useless for mechs. It should not be used as a general rule of thumb as it was very much an exception to the fluff of the period...ie, Fusion Engines were rare and usually stripped from vehicles for mechs.

If a fusion powered, 3rd Succession war VTOL is what you want to use in your campaign, no one's gonna stop you. But the fluff of the time says it's probably not gonna be done in anything except someone's private game.

No, I'm saying Urbie demand fall below the output of the factory that makes 60 rated engines

[evilauthor]

If you have the tonnage on a fusion powered VTOL to spare for an AC/2 plus ammo, you have enough tonnage for a PPC or Large Laser. True they don't have quite the same reach as the AC/2, but they also don't have ammo worries either. And fusion engine makes sure you have the heat sinks for either energy weapon.

[Jimmyray73]

I tried to build a BT version of a classic "slick" for a campaign I ran set in 3026 a few years back. Not really an attack bird like this thread was looking for but an amusing way to wreak havoc in the rear echelons. I may need to dig that design up...

[Istal_Devalis]

No, I'm saying Urbie demand fall below the output of the factory that makes 60 rated engines

The stumbling block on most mechs was the fusion engine. That's why they were stripping the things from vehicles. If you had a spare 60 rated engine, most people are going to put it in an Urbanmech rather then a VTOL. An UrbanMech is STILL a mech, and would have priority over a VTOL.

Heck, I think most 3025 era people would rather jury rig that engine to use in other mechs rather then a VTOL. You can salvage a Mech if it's killed. There's usually nothing to salvage with a VTOL.

[ianargent]

If you have the tonnage on a fusion powered VTOL to spare for an AC/2 plus ammo, you have enough tonnage for a PPC or Large Laser. True they don't have quite the same reach as the AC/2, but they also don't have ammo worries either. And fusion engine makes sure you have the heat sinks for either energy weapon.

Hence my comment above that if you can get someone to make such a small fusion engine, you can put a PPC on it; the stumbling block is that small engine. See the Savannah Master fluff for details. The Omni 25 doesn't re-enter production until years after the Helm Core is disseminated. And I can't find anything that takes a 50-rated SFE in the Succession Wars time period, suggesting that no-one has a line set up for them.

A fusion-powered Warrior with a PPC or LL qualifies for a gunship in my book; but canon argues strongly against the necessary engine being available in the time period.

[billtfor3]

Maybe its just my preference, but I think a VTOL with a fast Movement speed, enough armor to survive a PPC hit (obviously not to the rotor), and LRMs or SRMs loaded out to lay a hurting on something, would be preferable to a Urbie.  2/3/2 movement is nothing but a juicy target besides in a city.  10/15 VTOL is a hard target to pop in intro tech.  500K Cbills which is what I believe my number for cost came out is not that much really, and if your tactically inept enough to charge head on into a Mech or Tank, then you deserve to loose it, but just don't blame the machine for operator error  :P

[Jayof9s]

Hence my comment above that if you can get someone to make such a small fusion engine, you can put a PPC on it; the stumbling block is that small engine. See the Savannah Master fluff for details. The Omni 25 doesn't re-enter production until years after the Helm Core is disseminated. And I can't find anything that takes a 50-rated SFE in the Succession Wars time period, suggesting that no-one has a line set up for them.

A fusion-powered Warrior with a PPC or LL qualifies for a gunship in my book; but canon argues strongly against the necessary engine being available in the time period.

Yeah, exactly what you're saying, *if* you could get the fusion engines, you could make some pretty good VTOLs with base tech (though I'm actually of the opinion that Warriors are pretty decent gunships in the era, especially the 7C and 7A but that's off the point I suppose). The problem is justifying where the engines come from, at least if you want to follow canon strictly. Of course for an individual campaign there are ways to get around it if you're really set on it - i.e. your mercenary unit could always stumble across an old SL era cache with engines, much like the Omni 25 cache that resulted in the Savannah masters.

However, I'd say the reason for the lack of a true Gunship during the 3025 era makes sense in universe. At least one using a SFE, there are certainly some optimizations that could be made even sticking with an ICE engine.

But as far as I'm concerned the real question is why didn't the Star League have better VTOL Gunships (or why don't we know about them)? The Cyrano with a large laser and the Nightshade royal with a large pulse laser are about all I can think of. And both require getting closer than I'd like with a VTOL, as much as I personally enjoy the maligned IS large pulse lasers. The Royal Cyrano with its several improvements, including an ER LL is as good as they get, afaik.

[Orin J.]

But as far as I'm concerned the real question is why didn't the Star League have better VTOL Gunships(?)

they were probably marginalized out of any role the SL would use them for, with air support requiring aerospace capability to versatility, and scouting/patrolling relegated to fast vehicles or jump capable 'mechs as needed.

[ShadowRaven]

But as far as I'm concerned the real question is why didn't the Star League have better VTOL Gunships

Land-Air Mechs Plain and simple. Could do everything a VTOL gunship could, only more and better.

[Istal_Devalis]

Maybe its just my preference, but I think a VTOL with a fast Movement speed, enough armor to survive a PPC hit (obviously not to the rotor), and LRMs or SRMs loaded out to lay a hurting on something, would be preferable to a Urbie.

And then a conventional fighter shows up, or that Urbanmech was modified to carry an AC-2/LRM5 array for AA work, or you blunder next to a hidden Partisan with flak shells or a Thumper...

Your rare, cant be replaced that easilly Fusion Engine just went up in a fireball.
"Life is Cheap, Mechs arent", remember that motto? It's not as prevalent in the 'modern' play era, what with XL fusion tanks being common, but it used to be standard procedure back in 3025, and the fusion engine was a big part of why. There's to many ways to easilly kill a VTOL and all of them leave little of value behind. At least with the Urbanmech you have a chance of recovering something useful.

Land-Air Mechs Plain and simple. Could do everything a VTOL gunship could, only more and better.

LAM were rare even in the Star League. (Well comparitively)
I suspect the bigger impediment to combat VTOLs were Aerospace fighters.

[Jayof9s]

LAM were rare even in the Star League. (Well comparitively)
I suspect the bigger impediment to combat VTOLs were Aerospace fighters.

Yeah, I would think LAMs are just too rare to really push VTOLs out entirely. They may be able to do everything a VTOL can do and do it better, but VTOLs are less complex and even with fusion engines a lot less expensive.

As for the VTOLs vs ASFs, I feel like they perform a vastly different role.

Then again, I suppose VTOL selections were always pretty thin until more recent eras, we only have about 25 total chassis covering all VTOL types (transport to gunship) across all the eras, with at least 1/2 of those not cropping up until post 3050. Now I'm tempted to just create a few new lines of VTOLs to fill in the gaps for my campaigns in earlier eras - I can't imagine the only real gunships in 3025 were Warriors and the only real transports were Karnovs / Ferrets.

[ShadowRaven]

LAM's where relatively rare, yes.  But easier to deploy and with a higher chance of survival if they engaged in combat, I feel is enough of a reason for the Star League to not really look into the idea of a VTOL gunship.

[Jayof9s]

LAM's where relatively rare, yes.  But easier to deploy and with a higher chance of survival if they engaged in combat, I feel is enough of a reason for the Star League to not really look into the idea of a VTOL gunship.

They're different units though - a conventional VTOL vs one of the most complex types of 'Mechs. Now if the SL had completely ignored combined arms in favor of 'Mechs and more 'Mechs maybe I could see that being the case. But saying they would eschew all VTOLs in favor of LAMs is like suggesting the SL should have never produced any tanks in favor of 'Mechs because the 'Mechs are better. Sure, they are 'better' but tanks certainly have their uses.

[Fireangel]

Yeah, I would think LAMs are just too rare to really push VTOLs out entirely. They may be able to do everything a VTOL can do and do it better, but VTOLs are less complex and even with fusion engines a lot less expensive.

As for the VTOLs vs ASFs, I feel like they perform a vastly different role.

Then again, I suppose VTOL selections were always pretty thin until more recent eras, we only have about 25 total chassis covering all VTOL types (transport to gunship) across all the eras, with at least 1/2 of those not cropping up until post 3050. Now I'm tempted to just create a few new lines of VTOLs to fill in the gaps for my campaigns in earlier eras - I can't imagine the only real gunships in 3025 were Warriors and the only real transports were Karnovs / Ferrets.

Note that with (AirMech mode) LAMs being retroactively turned into WiGE 'mechs rather than VTOL 'mechs under the latest rules, their role in the battlefield becomes somewhat harder to justify as a "surrogate VTOL gunship".

[ShadowRaven]

Oh, I am not saying they would have eschewed all VTOL's in favor. Just not used them as gunships.

[Jayof9s]

But I can't even imagine LAMs would replace all the need for VTOL gunships. That's still like saying there should never be another main battle tank built during the SL-era because 'Mechs are better in that same role. While some may argue that for their games, clearly MBTs did not and have not disappeared from the universe. Even in time periods where 'Mechs are plentiful.

[SCC]

The stumbling block on most mechs was the fusion engine. That's why they were stripping the things from vehicles. If you had a spare 60 rated engine, most people are going to put it in an Urbanmech rather then a VTOL. An UrbanMech is STILL a mech, and would have priority over a VTOL.

Heck, I think most 3025 era people would rather jury rig that engine to use in other mechs rather then a VTOL. You can salvage a Mech if it's killed. There's usually nothing to salvage with a VTOL.

I don't disagree that Fusion engines are rare in 3025, but I don't think that the engines were the limit on 'Mech production, original TRO:3025 had new fusion engine lines built to supply the Rommel and Patton tanks and the Schrek was being produced and given how much the later competes with the AWS-8Q for parts

Plus I said surplus from Urbie production, the Urbie is such a niche role 'Mech I doubt production was very high