Why no true VTOL Gunships in 3025?

[A. Lurker]

I just thought it was unusual that it wasn't included in TW. It's not like the concept of flak is kept out of the standard rules set (LB cluster, HAGs).

I'd suspect (speculation only, it's not as though I was there) that it just hadn't really been thought of yet when TW went to the printers. I mean, it's the only genuinely new special AC ammo type in the current edition of the rules that I know of; all the others were already covered by the Master Rules and/or Maximum Tech back in the day.

[Fireangel]

What type of infantry are you using that have those ranges?  I'm guessing not something that was commonly available in 3025 (the era in question).  Plus, i'll match inferno sporting VTOLS against infantry any day.

SRM and Rifle (Energy) both have 6-hex ranges. LRM infantry has 9-hex range. Field guns are available in 3025: a 4-AC/2 or 3-AC/5 battery will do a serious number on a VTOL inside 9 hexes… especially if using flak ammo, which is also available in 3025.

A quick look through TM’s tables shows that the following infantry support weapons available in 3025 have ranges of 9 or more:

Mortar (heavy), Support Laser (standard, semi-portable and heavy [range of 15!]). Despite its tech rating of E, the Particle Cannon (support) is listed in TRO: 3026.

So yes, there is infantry that can match (or exceed) range with vehicle-grade SRMs in 3025.

[Coldstone]

Well, sorry if my view is very strict, but that is due to the strict view at all here in Germany. I personally like adv Tech, but no player I met here would let you use it in a 3025 Game.

AS FOR vtolS.

Lets face it from the official VTOLs, only the LRM Warrior is a real threat in 3025.

Kestrel? Nice Punch but it has paper as armor, so that even a random hit would crit it (Even a Hussar is sturdier).

Karnov? Only a Transport
 Planetlifter? Also Transport.

Ferret? Fast, but too light to be a real danger

Marten? Ok SRM 2 which can use Infernos But I would consider the Infantry the real danger.

THe old Star League VTOLs like the Cyrano?

Mostly used by comstar or downgraded, like mentioned, the downgraded cyrano is a real beauty but uncommon.


So is there really a need for the advanced tech? Of course if there are home brews, that might be different, but from the official point of view...

[Sartris]

The new RS: 3039u has some new variants to the old 3026 vehicles... like the AC/20 Karnov  }:)

RE: advanced tech. Some people like to use it. My question is the inverse. Why would you not want to use it?

[Coldstone]

Well most of the 3025 Purists here in Germany would propably answer because it does not exist.
Like I Said, Personally I like to use adv tech, but a majority here in Germany hate it with a passion. Some even deny an existence of the Clans and so on...

Well everyone should play as they please. In my own BT universe there are way more warships than official, because in my opinion, these big nasty Leviathans are essential to a scifi universe. But that is my opinion.  ;D

[Sartris]

Well most of the 3025 Purists here in Germany would propably answer because it does not exist.

1989 was a long time ago.  I admire their dedication.  I'd be done with BattleTech if I was forced to play in a time capsule.

[A. Lurker]

Well most of the 3025 Purists here in Germany would propably answer because it does not exist.

Technically, it's up to Catalyst to say what does or doesn't "exist" in their universe at any given time.

Now individual players can of course substitute their personal headcanon for that however they see fit, but that's not really such a solid ground to then try to make any claims of authority from. :)

[Belisarius]

Agreed, Lurker, but we are talking about a nation that still thinks of David Hasselhoff as an icon. While the 80's were a long time ago, they were longer ago for us than the Germans.

(a joke in poor taste, my apologies)

Back to VTOLs, there are quite a few options out there based around the Karnov, for example that rely totally on 3025 tech. Truth-be-told most of the best VTOLs out there aren't that high on the tech tree, so to speak. And there's quite a bit that can be done with a dumbed-down version of the Cobra or others. If you don't have the relevant books, Sarna.net can help you with the basics, you can build them out in MM lab (I think - I haven't done this myself), and then print record sheets from there.

[Weirdo]

Let's move on fomr this, and back to actual VTOLs, please? [copper]

[Ian Sharpe]

The lowly Ferret is probably the best VTOL killer if not allowed to use anything else.  Its fast, and cheap, and even at 2/4, one gets five of them for a little under 500 BV 2. 

[A. Lurker]

The lowly Ferret is probably the best VTOL killer if not allowed to use anything else.  Its fast, and cheap, and even at 2/4, one gets five of them for a little under 500 BV 2.

Well, yeah, if you're not allowed to use anything but Ferrets, that makes them the best VTOL killer kind of by default. ;)

Also, without knowing (a) how big the forces involved actually are on either side and (b) whether or not the FSM is in effect, "five of them for a little under 500 BV 2" only says so much. Five Ferrets are a full lance and change; that'd be a pretty serious investment in the little gnats for, say, a company vs. company battle.

[Istal_Devalis]

I'd think the best, cheapest VTOL killer would be a Guardian loaded with Infernos, personally.

[Fireangel]

Well, yeah, if you're not allowed to use anything but Ferrets, that makes them the best VTOL killer kind of by default. ;)

Also, without knowing (a) how big the forces involved actually are on either side and (b) whether or not the FSM is in effect, "five of them for a little under 500 BV 2" only says so much. Five Ferrets are a full lance and change; that'd be a pretty serious investment in the little gnats for, say, a company vs. company battle.

On its own, the Ferret is not terribly useful as anything but a spotter (LOS and/or through the use of its remote sensors), however, when paired with squads of conventional infantry, it truly shines.

[Coldstone]

Well it also depends on the used Rules imo. With Tac Ops rules even a Mantis can be dangerous, due to the added possibility of a Strafing run with its 5 ER Smalls.

3025 I would suggest a Pike as VTOL Killer.

AC2s are a good weapon at this time, even without Flak Ammo, due to the long Short Range bracket.

Hmm. I got an interesting Idea though. The Yellow Jacket is quite Slow, but has an ICE Engine. Stwichtig it to a Fuel Cell might save enough Tonnage to build in a Extended LRM 15 or even a 20. Should compensate for the low speed curve then. ;)

[Sartris]

Well it also depends on the used Rules imo. With Tac Ops rules even a Mantis can be dangerous, due to the added possibility of a Strafing run with its 5 ER Smalls.

3025 I would suggest a Pike as VTOL Killer.

AC2s are a good weapon at this time, even without Flak Ammo, due to the long Short Range bracket.

Hmm. I got an interesting Idea though. The Yellow Jacket is quite Slow, but has an ICE Engine. Stwichtig it to a Fuel Cell might save enough Tonnage to build in a Extended LRM 15 or even a 20. Should compensate for the low speed curve then. ;)

If you're looking for a Yellow Jacket with reach, try the Arrow IV variant.  It even gets 10 shots  8)

[Coldstone]

Arrows are nice, sure, BUT first they require a second unit in form of a TAG Spotter if you want to use those nice 20 Point Hominig Missiles. Area Effect Missiles can Scatter and last but not least Arrow IVs having Flight time firing them on anything that is further away than 17 hexes.

Extended Range Missiles reach their target in the same round, even if it is on the maximum Range.

[Weirdo]

So you want the Warrior in TRO Prototypes, then. 8)

[Sartris]

So you want the Warrior in TRO Prototypes, then. 8)

I love that thing

Arrows are nice, sure, BUT first they require a second unit in form of a TAG Spotter if you want to use those nice 20 Point Hominig Missiles.

I've never found this to be a serious issue.

[Coldstone]

The Warrior is indeed nice, but I would look for a bigger launcher than a 10 Tube ;)

[Sartris]

The Warrior is indeed nice, but I would look for a bigger launcher than a 10 Tube ;)

Experimental version from XTRO: Mercs with an HVAC/2... for when you absolutely have to plink your target from 1km

[Weirdo]

The Warrior is indeed nice, but I would look for a bigger launcher than a 10 Tube ;)

2 Warriors? ^-^

[Dave Talley]

2 Warriors? ^-^

hey watch it, you are the cop
I am the smartass

but in 3025 an LRM10 isnt a bad weapon, even cheesing out and swapping all the weapons for 4 LRM 5s aint bad

[Cannonshop]

Experimental version from XTRO: Mercs with an HVAC/2... for when you absolutely have to plink your target from 1km

Ah, yeah....a bird that will kill itself (No enemies required) 1 in 36 times, a chopper with a random time-bomb in the airframe...no thanks.  I prefer my aircrew to live long enough to get really good, as opposed to something that will routinely kill itself on a semi-regular basis.

[Sartris]

Ah, yeah....a bird that will kill itself (No enemies required) 1 in 36 times, a chopper with a random time-bomb in the airframe...no thanks.  I prefer my aircrew to live long enough to get really good, as opposed to something that will routinely kill itself on a semi-regular basis.

Yeah, I wouldn't use them in a campaign... though most of my games are one-off pickup anyway, so the risk really doesn't bother me.

[A. Lurker]

Ah, yeah....a bird that will kill itself (No enemies required) 1 in 36 times, a chopper with a random time-bomb in the airframe...no thanks.  I prefer my aircrew to live long enough to get really good, as opposed to something that will routinely kill itself on a semi-regular basis.

Actually, if the stats in MegaMek are correct in putting it at 21 tons (sounds plausible, that's where TRO: Prototypes puts its notional successor the S-9 as well), then it won't (necessarily) self-destruct just from the HVAC blowing up. Take 2 points of damage to its 3 of internal structure in front and thereby risk a critical hit, yes. But it's not an automatic death sentence.

Of course, if on the record sheet it actually shares the 20-ton frame that -- again according to MegaMek -- some other modern Warrior variants seem to be using, then forget I said anything. :)

[Sartris]

Actually, if the stats in MegaMek are correct in putting it at 21 tons (sounds plausible, that's where TRO: Prototypes puts its notional successor the S-9 as well), then it won't (necessarily) self-destruct just from the HVAC blowing up. Take 2 points of damage to its 3 of internal structure in front and thereby risk a critical hit, yes. But it's not an automatic death sentence.

Of course, if on the record sheet it actually shares the 20-ton frame that -- again according to MegaMek -- some other modern Warrior variants seem to be using, then forget I said anything. :)

Record sheet in XTRO: Mercs puts it at 21 tons

It also has CASE... though I can't remember how vehicle CASE works

[A. Lurker]

Record sheet in XTRO: Mercs puts it at 21 tons

It also has CASE... though I can't remember how vehicle CASE works

Applies the damage to the rear armor rather than the internal structure. The crew is left stunned for a turn, but alive.

Of course, the version of the HX-9 included with MM doesn't actually seem to have any. ???

[Scotty]

There are a lot of technically invalid or incorrect units in MegaMek that slip through the filters.  There are a few vehicles that have two identically named variants, that have the same armament, engine, etc., where the only difference is that one of them inexplicably has more ammo than the other.

[A. Lurker]

There are a lot of technically invalid or incorrect units in MegaMek that slip through the filters.  There are a few vehicles that have two identically named variants, that have the same armament, engine, etc., where the only difference is that one of them inexplicably has more ammo than the other.

I don't know about "a lot", but that some do slip through the cracks (not to be confused with the unofficial designs included on purpose, mind) and may then stay there for quite a while if nobody bothers to call attention to the mistakes is nothing new. Which is precisely why I make sure to point out where I get my information from...

[Cannonshop]

Applies the damage to the rear armor rather than the internal structure. The crew is left stunned for a turn, but alive.

Of course, the version of the HX-9 included with MM doesn't actually seem to have any. ???

What happens to a vehicle when you destroy a location/facing?  Like I said, these things are suicide for aircrew.  It took them over ten years to design a VTOL worse than the Jellowbucket-and they had to develop a new tech to do it.