Death's Head VTOL

[AngryButler with a KNIFE!]

If there is one thing that will inflame the ego of the various Clans almost more than anything else, it is seeing any faction within the Inner Sphere get the best of them. And for decades now, Michaelson Heavy Industries Yellow Jacket and Hawk Moth - the original, not so much with its successor - have been twin festering sores when it comes to VTOL designs. Able to hit at ranges that even the Clans respect, and in the case of the Hawk Moth, at a range only the lightest of Clan autocannon can reach, and hit very hard indeed. While the Federated Commonwealth died in the civil war that erupted following Operation Bulldog, that mission gave them the first real taste of the designs working in concert. And while the Federated Suns would not share a border with the Clans, its sundered half in the Lyran Commonwealth, and its immense purchasing wealth, most certainly did. And purchase they did. And did. And did again. For all the losses that the Jade Falcons took, they were simply too ironbound to their traditions to look 'outside the box', and stayed true to using anti-aircraft omni-loadouts on various units, thus it fell to another Clan to deal with the issue with finality.

Not so ironically, it would be the one Clan that's borders were nowhere near the Commonwealth, but steeped in the the usage of combined arms, rather than only Battlemechs. Hell's Horses had long looked at the two designs as elegant in their simplicity, marred only by the taint of being produced by the Inner Sphere. Several times their clan council had almost put forward a design meant to prove their superiority over them, but had backed down each time. The first was when the Balac was produced, as the variable range of its missiles meant it was a peer competitor at range, and even more devastating up close. The second was stymied at the last moment when need for a fast Battle Armor transport was needed, resulting in the Garuda. The final one was when the Hawk Moth II was released, completely forgoing the massive single hit firepower of its predecessor for short range volleys. Short enough that most would not hope to survive the longer ranging armaments the Clan used. It was the news that Michaelson had taken heed of the dismal reports of its new produce, and restarted production of the older model with a vengeance, that the Horses had enough and would not be dissuaded by other political concerns. They would have their gunship come the proverbial hell or high water.

Initially based upon the Donar, also a Hell's Horses original design, it was decided to increase its tonnage to match the lighter Hawk Moth, while matching the firepower of the heavier Yellow Jacket. In a break away view, rather than simply copying the usage of a spinal Gauss Rifle and calling it finished, they went completely in the opposite direction. Almost literally building the chassis around it, the new VTOL would carry a clan model of the extended range particle cannon that still to this day is one of the most feared weapons on the battlefield. While forced to utilize a fusion reactor simply due to its integral heat sinks to partially offset the massive thermal spikes from firing such a particle cannon, the Horses were willing to pay the larger toll in resources. In fact, they went well and above to even great heights, by placing both an active probe and a targeting computer into the hull. Combined together, makes it near impossible to hide from, matched with a truly intimidating accuracy rating, and a virtually unlimited firing rate unlike the Inner Sphere designs which had to withdraw after only a handful of shots before running dry on ammunition.

Even when it came to armor protection, the new VTOL would serve as a cutting edge display as to the Clan's sheer dominance over the Inner Sphere. Mounting four full tons of the newest Ferro-Lamellor compound, a Death's Head is for all intents able to handle any single shot firing weapon less than a Heavy Gauss Rifle, when taken to its nose, and still survive to fire back. Unsaid is the obvious backhanded compliment towards Michaelson's Yellow Jacket, still famed after all these years for its ability to take a standard Gauss Rifle to the front and stay in the air.

It was not without a sense of irony that they named it the Death's Head, after a Terran moth that not only preys on yellow jackets, wasps, hornets and other insects, but a killer of other hawk moths as well. Even better, and something that the conventional forces within the Hell's Horses found highly humorous, is that the Death's Head would almost immediately see use against the Jade Falcons to devastating effect. The same Falcons that had felt the repeated sting of the earlier VTOLs would now feel the bite of their superior.

Code: [Select]

Death's Head VTOL

Mass: 25 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Motive Type: VTOL
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-F-A
Production Year: 0
Cost: 1,888,333 C-Bills
Battle Value: 986

Power Plant:  60 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 86.4 km/h
Flanking Speed: 129.6 km/h
Armor:  Ferro-Lamellor
Armament:
    1  ER PPC
    1  Active Probe
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      15 points                2.50
Engine:             Fusion Engine                 60                       2.50
    Cruise MP:  8
    Flank MP:   12
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             15                        5.00
Control Equipment:                                                         1.50
Lift Equipment:                                                            2.50
Armor:              Ferro-Lamellor               AV -  56                  4.00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     20       
                                          Left/Right   12/12       
                                                Rear     10       
                                               Rotor     2         

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER PPC                                       FR        15        1         6.00
Active Probe                                 FR        0         1         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      2    Points: 10
8v         2       2       2       0      1     0   Structure:  2
Special Abilities: PRB, RCN, ENE


Sometimes you want all the guns as shell casings fall like rain.
Sometimes you want all the missiles and go Itano Circus everywhere.
Sometimes you want to make them taste the rainbow laser spam.
Sometimes you want to spice it up with a little of everything.

And sometimes...sometimes you just want to reach out and smack someone with your mighty pimp hand without needing 10+ weapon systems. Because you only needed one to slap them down. And if they get up? Do it again, and again, never missing, with each time hitting just as hard as the last one.

[Cannonshop]

well, it's a nice range target.  I think you'll spend a lot of time going over minutiae with  your players and need at least three books to resolve a single engagement.

It's the basic problem, and your reference to the jellowbucket in the writeup emphasizes this-because the Jellowbucket's not a good VTOL, and the Hawk-Moth's got the same base defect.  (both cases, the main armament and movement profile can be used on something that can actually survive, without going clantech, or building a battlemech.)

the same problem applies here, only with the potential for more weapons, better protection, and the same movement curve.

with VTOL units, a "Mediocre against inner sphere" movement curve is 8/12.  vs. Clan or post-helm Inner Sphere, you really need 10/15 or better, even with very long range weapons.  The only time this isn't true, is when you load up on the optional rulesets which were written explicitly to make bad designs viable.

see, it's what you don't have: the ability to apply multiple one-shot-kills before something that CAN strip your rotors gets in range and position to do it.  This is why speed is such a critical factor with vTOL, while hits on the other end are more or less secondary-having the potential to deliver a 10, 12, or 15 point hit is good, don't get me wrong, but it's only a potential, and it's matched up against an opposing potential to deliver similar blows-with a difference being that when you knock out, say, the motive systems on a hovertank or track, you still have a viable bunker, but a VTOL becomes a crashsite, and more to the point, it does so easily and rather quickly when that happens, and can do so on any given PSR/Sideslip check unless you're also flying straight/level above any terrain (Which is the only way your flank speed can be applied reliably.  when flanking every turn, every elevation change, risks sideslip, and sideslip ranges can easily make your VTOL one with the terrain, esp. with 'basic' piloting scores.)

this fundamental mechanical state is WHY the often-claimed "Screen behind terrain" doesn't work very well for the Hawk Moth or Jellowbucket- you're either an easy target as soon as you unmask, or you risk becoming one with the terrain before you ever fire a shot.

for "Better than Clanner" performance with a VTOL, then, you need something like the unredacted 3026 H-7's stats, with a long range gun (that doesn't self immolate), 10/15 or better movement, and just enough protection that the pilot can theoretically survive a one or two terrain level crash. (Because the higher cruise actually ALLOWS you to do 'canyon carving' low altitude terrain screening movement without being effectively 'stationary' when you unmask to fire your shots.  remember, TMM doesn't help based on MP's spent, but rather, on distances actually covered, not including turns or elevation changes.)

Things you did right:

avoiding the 30 ton trap.  the VTOL movement/rotor protection sweet-spot is between 21 and 29 tons. at 30 tons, you're into hovercraft territory, but without the abiltiy to bunker, below 21 tons, you have too few points in the rotor.

You didn't make it so slow it would fail on a 3025 battlefield.  This is where the Jellowbucket *(Yellowjacket) fails miserably-it can be outflanked by units that lack its vertical movement and terrain avoidance, (iow ground bound units) and taken down by bog-standard missile racks with very little difficulty unless you're using some very exotic rules options.

This is a design that's adequate for chaos march campaigns between 3055 and 3062, but it's not a clanner-killer even against rear-line forces.  Against Clanner enemy types, there are some glaring deficiencies, and those deficiencies get more pronounced against the Clanners' own, canon, VTOL attacker (the Donar), a design that can counter the bulk of your speed, while out-turning you and delivering a similar punch. (*See: TRO 3058)

that all said, it's not bad for a first attempt, and it fits with a lot of the bad assumptions promulgated by people who spent too much of their gaming career in Mechforce UK or Maxtech(tm) campaigns, and not enough in playing out dissimilar combat scenarios using conventional forces against Clanner 'mech-and-BA' players.

There's a bit of an 'art' to building and using VTOL units in Battletech; a lot of the core ideas that work for 'mech types don't work so well with VTOLs, (among the most obvious, with VTOL units, bigger is NOT better, not even a little bit, most of the time, bigger is useless.)

[Retry]

Can't say I agree with Cannonshop.  Well, most of his reasoning is solid, but his ultimate conclusion just isn't right.

8/12 is just about the minimum for a decent VTOL, with 10/15 being preferred and 12/18 is very good.  However, this design carries an ERPPC, and even with a Fusion engine to hide heat sinks that's gonna take some thought to fit.  If he wants to do it somewhat cheaply he basically has to settle for 8/12 movement on this VTOL design.  Which isn't too bad for an ERPPC carrier under 2 million C-bills, definitely workable, just takes some thinking and standoff distance.

I also think he's too harsh on the Hawk Moth.  The Yellowjacket is a stinker for sure, but the Hawk Moth has an acceptable 8/12 movement profile and one of the longest ranged IS weapons available for under a million C-Bills.  The Armor variant keeps enough ammo while having the armor to suffer a decent hit and limp back home alive.  You really can't get that capability at very many places for that price.

The mentioning of stripping rotors tells me Cannonshop didn't pay close attention to the design.  The VTOL sports Ferro-Lamellor Armor, which makes the VTOL much more resistant to rotor hits.  While there's no canon VTOLs that use that armor, my group does use custom VTOLs with that very stuff quite frequently, and that stuff turns helicopters into completely different beasts.

Basically, F-L armor reduces a hit by 1 point every 5 points of damage, and since a VTOL's rotor takes damage/10 rounded up damage, anything that's a large laser or so and smaller takes 0 points of damage.  (Rotor hits still reduce VTOL MP though, so they're obviously not invulnerable).  It would take at least 2 clan ERPPC hits or something similar to cut through the rotor armor and rip into its juicy internal structure, by which time the VTOL's probably already crashed, crit to death, or has been penetrated through one of its other locations.

The main cause of death of F-L VTOLs are, then, not from heavy weapons stripping the rotor armor, but from critical hits destroying their engines from the side, sheer-number of VTOL rotor hits from a LB-X cannon either causing a lucky rotor-destroying critical hit or simply dropping to 0 MP due to vast number of rotor hits, or by simple attrition coring the vehicle from the front, rear, or sides.

I'm not sure what he's referring to by "exotic rules".  There's a tac ops rule that enhanced vehicle effectiveness, but it enhances *all* vehicles, not just the crappy ones.  Since the default ruleset was written in such a way to keep vehicles in general sub-par and put 'Mechs as the king of the battlefield, the lack of viability of many designs can be attributed to the ruleset rather than the actual design.

Unless he's referring to pre-Total Warfare rules for VTOLs where they took rotor damage as usual.  But then TW would be the standard rules, not the "exotic" alternative.  And neither of these rules prevent 6/9 VTOLs from being easy meat for pretty much everything, including missile packs.

I can't see this VTOL as an ideal anti-VTOL vehicle.  The ER PPC is powerful and can core most of the lighter VTOLs in a single hit, and there's just a lot of more ideal anti-VTOL weapons that can do that job better.  It's going to need some cover from either other VTOLs or anti-aircraft assets like Aesirs if any hostile, swifter VTOLs get the desire to slay one.  But I can certainly see this as an anti-tank/anti-Mech VTOL that can harass the heavier and slower stuff well, especially in groups against Assault Mech designs.  No 'Mechwarrior likes the possibility of being headcapped by a flea, especially one that's 10 times cheaper than their own rides.

The note about 30 tons being hovercraft territory is very curious.  Everywhere from 5 to 50 tons is "hovercraft territory" and there's nothing specifically bad about the 30 ton bracket, which you can propel to the good 10/15 movement with an XLE on the high end while having 18 tons for armor and weapons (a 25 tonner would have 15.5 tons).

I'll be far more generous than Cannonshop was.  If you were going for a feasible Hell's Horses Dark-Age VTOL design, you nailed it.  A practical, cheap-ish VTOL with good oomph and just a touch of fancy armor, perfect for supporting HH-style combined arms Novas.  The only thing I'd possibly change is removing the active probe which isn't necessary to reduce cost, and replace it with something else (perhaps a chin turret?).

[Cannonshop]

Can't say I agree with Cannonshop.  Well, most of his reasoning is solid, but his ultimate conclusion just isn't right.

8/12 is just about the minimum for a decent VTOL, with 10/15 being preferred and 12/18 is very good.  However, this design carries an ERPPC, and even with a Fusion engine to hide heat sinks that's gonna take some thought to fit.  If he wants to do it somewhat cheaply he basically has to settle for 8/12 movement on this VTOL design.  Which isn't too bad for an ERPPC carrier under 2 million C-bills, definitely workable, just takes some thinking and standoff distance.

I also think he's too harsh on the Hawk Moth.  The Yellowjacket is a stinker for sure, but the Hawk Moth has an acceptable 8/12 movement profile and one of the longest ranged IS weapons available for under a million C-Bills.  The Armor variant keeps enough ammo while having the armor to suffer a decent hit and limp back home alive.  You really can't get that capability at very many places for that price.

The mentioning of stripping rotors tells me Cannonshop didn't pay close attention to the design.  The VTOL sports Ferro-Lamellor Armor, which makes the VTOL much more resistant to rotor hits.  While there's no canon VTOLs that use that armor, my group does use custom VTOLs with that very stuff quite frequently, and that stuff turns helicopters into completely different beasts.

Basically, F-L armor reduces a hit by 1 point every 5 points of damage, and since a VTOL's rotor takes damage/10 rounded up damage, anything that's a large laser or so and smaller takes 0 points of damage.  (Rotor hits still reduce VTOL MP though, so they're obviously not invulnerable).  It would take at least 2 clan ERPPC hits or something similar to cut through the rotor armor and rip into its juicy internal structure, by which time the VTOL's probably already crashed, crit to death, or has been penetrated through one of its other locations.

The main cause of death of F-L VTOLs are, then, not from heavy weapons stripping the rotor armor, but from critical hits destroying their engines from the side, sheer-number of VTOL rotor hits from a LB-X cannon either causing a lucky rotor-destroying critical hit or simply dropping to 0 MP due to vast number of rotor hits, or by simple attrition coring the vehicle from the front, rear, or sides.

I'm not sure what he's referring to by "exotic rules".  There's a tac ops rule that enhanced vehicle effectiveness, but it enhances *all* vehicles, not just the crappy ones.  Since the default ruleset was written in such a way to keep vehicles in general sub-par and put 'Mechs as the king of the battlefield, the lack of viability of many designs can be attributed to the ruleset rather than the actual design.

Unless he's referring to pre-Total Warfare rules for VTOLs where they took rotor damage as usual.  But then TW would be the standard rules, not the "exotic" alternative.  And neither of these rules prevent 6/9 VTOLs from being easy meat for pretty much everything, including missile packs.

I can't see this VTOL as an ideal anti-VTOL vehicle.  The ER PPC is powerful and can core most of the lighter VTOLs in a single hit, and there's just a lot of more ideal anti-VTOL weapons that can do that job better.  It's going to need some cover from either other VTOLs or anti-aircraft assets like Aesirs if any hostile, swifter VTOLs get the desire to slay one.  But I can certainly see this as an anti-tank/anti-Mech VTOL that can harass the heavier and slower stuff well, especially in groups against Assault Mech designs.  No 'Mechwarrior likes the possibility of being headcapped by a flea, especially one that's 10 times cheaper than their own rides.

The note about 30 tons being hovercraft territory is very curious.  Everywhere from 5 to 50 tons is "hovercraft territory" and there's nothing specifically bad about the 30 ton bracket, which you can propel to the good 10/15 movement with an XLE on the high end while having 18 tons for armor and weapons (a 25 tonner would have 15.5 tons).

I'll be far more generous than Cannonshop was.  If you were going for a feasible Hell's Horses Dark-Age VTOL design, you nailed it.  A practical, cheap-ish VTOL with good oomph and just a touch of fancy armor, perfect for supporting HH-style combined arms Novas.  The only thing I'd possibly change is removing the active probe which isn't necessary to reduce cost, and replace it with something else (perhaps a chin turret?).

F-L is an example of what I said, relying on optional rules that were written explicitly to make bad designs viable, and requiring what??

extra rulebooks to adjudicate.  further, it's rather a bit of a cheat, since the majority of your hit table is 'rotor' and you're taking zero damage to that majority of  your table, effectively turning in an instant 20 point value shield that never degrades, and this is, in turn, because they needed some way to make crap designs viable.

[Retry]

F-L is an example of what I said, relying on optional rules that were written explicitly to make bad designs viable, and requiring what??

extra rulebooks to adjudicate.  further, it's rather a bit of a cheat, since the majority of your hit table is 'rotor' and you're taking zero damage to that majority of  your table, effectively turning in an instant 20 point value shield that never degrades, and this is, in turn, because they needed some way to make crap designs viable.

Misleading.  The probability of a rotor hit is 11/36, or a little under a third. (hits are on 12, 11, 10, 3, and 4).  This drops to 8/36  or under a fourth if the VTOL mounts a chin turret (4 is replaced with the turret).  For a given side, the probability to hit that side is a constant 17/36 or nearly half (2, 6, 7, and 8 for the given sides).  So the side you're facing is always the plurality of the hit locations that are actually getting hit.  Any hit above 10 points points deals 1 damage to the F-L armor, and rotor hits still slow down the VTOL regardless of damage, so it's not an invulnerable, non-degrading shield.

F-L is an experimental rule level so it's not a tournament legal design (And by 3145 it becomes classified as an Advanced technology, and not an exotic experimental prototype), but Tactical Operations is a core rulebook.  Options like the Vehicle Efficiency are optional, how F-L operates is not.  The description of this and other technologies in this rulebook (like Angel ECM and some alternative ammunition) aren't tournament legal rules but are core rules, albeit more complex than the simple "mark off 1 point per damage" of standard armor.

The F-L armor doesn't affect the core of the design.  With it, it's a surprisingly durable clan Hawk Moth.  Remove it and add either standard or FF armor and you have a clan Hawk Moth.  A light 'Death's Head' design becomes less durable, but cheaper, easier to produce PPC truck, which still isn't a bad thing.

The claim that F-L was written to make bad designs viable is also curious.  There's not a single canon VTOL design that uses it, just a handful of vehicles, 2 Aerospace fighters, and a dozen or 2 Battlemech designs (Including the Mad Cat Mk.IV and Mad Dog Mk.IV).  Where's all the "crap designs" that the writers were going to make viable?

F-L can fit on almost any VTOL design that you like and make them more durable, not just this one.  It's nothing more than a general-purpose force multiplier.

And I must re-iterate, even if you don't personally like the design, this is definitely a possible, practical, and decently fluffed design that clan Hell's Horses would be likely to produce.

[Cannonshop]

Misleading.  The probability of a rotor hit is 11/36, or a little under a third. (hits are on 12, 11, 10, 3, and 4).  This drops to 8/36  or under a fourth if the VTOL mounts a chin turret (4 is replaced with the turret).  For a given side, the probability to hit that side is a constant 17/36 or nearly half (2, 6, 7, and 8 for the given sides).  So the side you're facing is always the plurality of the hit locations that are actually getting hit.  Any hit above 10 points points deals 1 damage to the F-L armor, and rotor hits still slow down the VTOL regardless of damage, so it's not an invulnerable, non-degrading shield.

F-L is an experimental rule level so it's not a tournament legal design (And by 3145 it becomes classified as an Advanced technology, and not an exotic experimental prototype), but Tactical Operations is a core rulebook.  Options like the Vehicle Efficiency are optional, how F-L operates is not.  The description of this and other technologies in this rulebook (like Angel ECM and some alternative ammunition) aren't tournament legal rules but are core rules, albeit more complex than the simple "mark off 1 point per damage" of standard armor.

The F-L armor doesn't affect the core of the design.  With it, it's a surprisingly durable clan Hawk Moth.  Remove it and add either standard or FF armor and you have a clan Hawk Moth.  A light 'Death's Head' design becomes less durable, but cheaper, easier to produce PPC truck, which still isn't a bad thing.

The claim that F-L was written to make bad designs viable is also curious.  There's not a single canon VTOL design that uses it, just a handful of vehicles, 2 Aerospace fighters, and a dozen or 2 Battlemech designs (Including the Mad Cat Mk.IV and Mad Dog Mk.IV).  Where's all the "crap designs" that the writers were going to make viable?

F-L can fit on almost any VTOL design that you like and make them more durable, not just this one.  It's nothing more than a general-purpose force multiplier.

And I must re-iterate, even if you don't personally like the design, this is definitely a possible, practical, and decently fluffed design that clan Hell's Horses would be likely to produce.

as you said, it goes to 'advanced' table in 3145.  considering it was first introduced (on VTOL) in the fluff for a donar variant in the klikky teck game, and the game-mechanic impact of making a rotor hit effectively nothing for anything short of an AC/20 or Gauss/Heavy Gauss slug?

you're effectively giving near-godmode status to a single hit location on a vehicle that by definition is supposed to be fragile.

The rules implementation is there, with no exception, and functionally, it's there to make slow moving choppers like the Yellowjacket viable, and the main reason you haven't seen a canon design, was that it was called out on the forum when the Tactical Operations book first hit the public and someone pointed it out.

it's a broken implementation, but only on a minority unit type, therefore not requiring a patch to the rules (yet).

The main advantage VTOLs have is being able to move a given amount of firepower quickly around the map, but the trade off is that it's vulnerable to lucky hits, take that vulnerability and scale it down the way Ferro Lamellor as written does, and you've just made light 'mechs obsolete, because now you've got a "Light" unit that can sling significant firepower, where 90% of the weapons in the game hit for zero effect on 30% of the locations on the sheet.

never mind what it does on the rest of the chassis, because now there's no reason to have hovertanks OR light 'mechs.

and again, you require an additional book to adjudicate the  rules in order to play it, and there ARE rules conflicts that you'll have to settle  every time you bring it onto a table.  (Kind of 'why' you don't see it in tournament play.)

which goes back to my assessment of the unit-it's mediocre, and relies on a cheap oversight that hasn't been errata'ed to work because the game mechanic  wasn't thought through and, lucky for the rest of us, hasn't saddled a second canon design in a more widely distributed book yet, so the munchkind haven't found out how easy it is to abuse yet.

[Cannonshop]

VTOL combat in Battletech is a movement game. There's a second reason I'm perfectly comfortable dissing slower VTOLs, and that's less to do with vulnerability, than it does the fact your main weapon is fixed forward.  The forward arc on vehicles is narrow, and it's relatively easy for a mobile opponent to stay out of that arc, even at the ridonkulous ranges possible with ATMs, or CERPPC's, or Light Gauss rifles.

movement is not JUST about defense, it's also about lining up your shots, getting to USE that firepower.  I've watched people with COM-2D's outmaneuver and close on Yellowjacket players, and that's a unit that's SLOWER (due to terrain restrictions, hills, water, etc.)

maps where the range advantage of a Light Gauss is worth sacrificing movement down to hovercraft speeds, are generally rare and take a few turns just to get the meeting engagement, being able to apply terrain and maneuver to GET those shots off is motion-dependent, being able to comfortably sit and snipe? you can use any tank with a Light Gauss for that, and unlike a VTOL, tanks don't run into hillsides and explode.

VTOLs are tools of offense, not defense, they're best applied as a form of 'light cavalry screen' for a reason-they're intended to move ahead of the main body, locating and clearing targets, harassing enemy flanks, or striking at the enemy's rear as supplement to the main force.

The Hawkmoth does this poorly, the Yellowjacket doesn't do it at all, both are saddled with the idea that all you need is a big, long-range gun.

This VTOL has the same defective thinking, only with the added 'bonus' of being equipped with Experimentech armor plating so the crew can pretend they're a tank, when they aren't.

(at least, until the issue becomes an issue and it gets an errata pass).

if you want to maximize your effectiveness with an energy-based VTOL chassis, and you insist on using Clantech to do it, there's a weapon that uses the native heat sinks in the engine without adding dead weight that isn't movement, weapon, or armor. 

Clan Large Pulse Laser.  10 heat, it's got a decent range and a good hit probability, and you save boku tonnage while gaining an edge on your opponents when you bracket  them.  (at which point, you're doing a lighter and better protected Cyrano because going lighter on a VTOL below 30 tons means you're probably carrying more armor for any given movement curve.)

secondarily, getting your movement up that way means you don't need the experimentech Lamillar armor to be viable-you use TMM's instead, and you can cruise instead of flanking, which means not running into terrain when you're on the hunt or skylining yourself for easy disposal by flak, antiair artillery, enemy large pulse lasers, LBX, HAG, etc. etc. etc.

the only thing it loses, is the magic 20 point-to-40 point invulnerable shield over 30% of the body.

of course, if you APPLY that magick shield, (the Ferro Lamellor magic armored rotors bonus), a faster VTOL with better maneuverability and ALMOST the same amount of damage is going to be significantly better, since it can actually apply its damage and play offense, rather than hanging at the back o' the pack waiting for a chance to snipe.

[Retry]

as you said, it goes to 'advanced' table in 3145.  considering it was first introduced (on VTOL) in the fluff for a donar variant in the klikky teck game, and the game-mechanic impact of making a rotor hit effectively nothing for anything short of an AC/20 or Gauss/Heavy Gauss slug?

you're effectively giving near-godmode status to a single hit location on a vehicle that by definition is supposed to be fragile.

The rules implementation is there, with no exception, and functionally, it's there to make slow moving choppers like the Yellowjacket viable, and the main reason you haven't seen a canon design, was that it was called out on the forum when the Tactical Operations book first hit the public and someone pointed it out.

it's a broken implementation, but only on a minority unit type, therefore not requiring a patch to the rules (yet).

The main advantage VTOLs have is being able to move a given amount of firepower quickly around the map, but the trade off is that it's vulnerable to lucky hits, take that vulnerability and scale it down the way Ferro Lamellor as written does, and you've just made light 'mechs obsolete, because now you've got a "Light" unit that can sling significant firepower, where 90% of the weapons in the game hit for zero effect on 30% of the locations on the sheet.

never mind what it does on the rest of the chassis, because now there's no reason to have hovertanks OR light 'mechs.

and again, you require an additional book to adjudicate the  rules in order to play it, and there ARE rules conflicts that you'll have to settle  every time you bring it onto a table.  (Kind of 'why' you don't see it in tournament play.)

which goes back to my assessment of the unit-it's mediocre, and relies on a cheap oversight that hasn't been errata'ed to work because the game mechanic  wasn't thought through and, lucky for the rest of us, hasn't saddled a second canon design in a more widely distributed book yet, so the munchkind haven't found out how easy it is to abuse yet.

Wrong again: The damage/10 divisor is rounded up, so anything above over 10 points will penetrate the FL rotor's, so something like a Blazer will penetrate fine with no issue.  Depending on the options you run with, even 10 point weapons can penetrate the rotor with a good shot(Something like Tac Ops Direct Blow rules), otherwise regular clan ER PPCs and standard Gauss Rifles can penetrate the rotor.

And no, it's not doing "effectively nothing".  A Yellowjacket-like vehicle with 6/9 movement will drop to 4/6 on 2 rotor hits, regardless if it has F-L armor or not.  The canon Yellowjacket has will die in a maximum of 5 rotor hits, a modified F-L Yellowjacket will simply drop to 0 MP and crash in a maximum of 6 rotor hits, which is virtually the same thing.  In practice, the F-L merely delays the rotor degradation, strengthening it such that it has less chances to instantly fail after the 2nd pellet.  Still fragile in practice, even if it's not blowing up instantly from a LB-X's evil eye like you'd hope.

On light 'Mechs and Hovercraft: This also doesn't happen in practice.  (Well, light mechs are somewhat arguable since they're expensive compared to vehicles and just aren't durable enough for front-line duty in the first place, but that's an argument for another time).  VTOLs fly, and since they fly AA weapons including regular ACs with flak ammo, HAGs, and especially the LB-X Series and the Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle get nasty to-hit bonuses and hit with hit with several pellets when they do hit, which means several chances to hit the rotor.  In practice, cluster firing is still a great way to de-mobilize a L-F chopper as its resilience is not immunity and can simply be overcome by brute force.  If you play with quirks this doubles with the AA targeting quirk, in which case you'll consistently get THNs of 4s, 5s, and 6s against VTOLs that are at their maximum to-hit number with modest gunners.  But you don't get those THNs against similar Battlemechs or Hovercraft since they don't fly.

Our group has introduced custom VTOLs with F-L armor without the effects you describe.  At most it means Mi-24 and AH-64 type concepts can actually work well and that Daishi actually has to be concerned about the flying gnats and the other side brings actual AA assets, which means under-used Aesirs, Partisans, and even Riflemen and Jagermechs get a spot in the limelight.  These VTOLs have ultimately resulted in more variety in our standard play, not less.

On rules conflicts: Also hasn't happened w/ my group.  The rules are fairly clear in that regards.

You're free to have your opinion of the unit, but I think among the two of us, the one who has extensive experience fighting with and against similar units may have a stronger judgement to make a judgement call, no?

[Cannonshop]

Wrong again: The damage/10 divisor is rounded up, so anything above over 10 points will penetrate the FL rotor's, so something like a Blazer will penetrate fine with no issue.  Depending on the options you run with, even 10 point weapons can penetrate the rotor with a good shot(Something like Tac Ops Direct Blow rules), otherwise regular clan ER PPCs and standard Gauss Rifles can penetrate the rotor.

And no, it's not doing "effectively nothing".  A Yellowjacket-like vehicle with 6/9 movement will drop to 4/6 on 2 rotor hits, regardless if it has F-L armor or not.  The canon Yellowjacket has will die in a maximum of 5 rotor hits, a modified F-L Yellowjacket will simply drop to 0 MP and crash in a maximum of 6 rotor hits, which is virtually the same thing.  In practice, the F-L merely delays the rotor degradation, strengthening it such that it has less chances to instantly fail after the 2nd pellet.  Still fragile in practice, even if it's not blowing up instantly from a LB-X's evil eye like you'd hope.

On light 'Mechs and Hovercraft: This also doesn't happen in practice.  (Well, light mechs are somewhat arguable since they're expensive compared to vehicles and just aren't durable enough for front-line duty in the first place, but that's an argument for another time).  VTOLs fly, and since they fly AA weapons including regular ACs with flak ammo, HAGs, and especially the LB-X Series and the Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle get nasty to-hit bonuses and hit with hit with several pellets when they do hit, which means several chances to hit the rotor.  In practice, cluster firing is still a great way to de-mobilize a L-F chopper as its resilience is not immunity and can simply be overcome by brute force.  If you play with quirks this doubles with the AA targeting quirk, in which case you'll consistently get THNs of 4s, 5s, and 6s against VTOLs that are at their maximum to-hit number with modest gunners.  But you don't get those THNs against similar Battlemechs or Hovercraft since they don't fly.

Our group has introduced custom VTOLs with F-L armor without the effects you describe.  At most it means Mi-24 and AH-64 type concepts can actually work well and that Daishi actually has to be concerned about the flying gnats and the other side brings actual AA assets, which means under-used Aesirs, Partisans, and even Riflemen and Jagermechs get a spot in the limelight.  These VTOLs have ultimately resulted in more variety in our standard play, not less.

On rules conflicts: Also hasn't happened w/ my group.  The rules are fairly clear in that regards.

You're free to have your opinion of the unit, but I think among the two of us, the one who has extensive experience fighting with and against similar units may have a stronger judgement to make a judgement call, no?

except by your own admission, it takes HOW MANY hits? Oh right...they don't do any damage.

which means you have to get a motive system crit every hit to do what you're describing if you're NOT playing with "Quirks".

Effectively, you're in a group that's selected the optional rules  you want, then applied that selection to the general community as if it were assumed.

second thing to keep in mind?  You can down an Apache or Hind with a bolt action rifle (and not one of the big 50s either). it's one of those strange coincidences where the Compendium/rules of war/master rules rulesets were actually MORE realistic than their replacements.  Helicopters rely on speed and terrain screening to achieve surprise in order to do their jobs, because they're characterized by their fundamentally necessary fragility (this in turn necessitates a different tactical style on employment than you use with main battle tanks, or, in the case of a wargame, 'mechs).

you can back check this with the american experience in Vietnam, soviet experience in Afghanistan, or any of the current crop of brushfire wars that are going on currently.  the Munchtek rules (maximum Tech) were cobbled together specifically to make slow VTOLs viable in the game, since there's a whole collection in the community that wants everything to take as long as a battlemech to kill, without requiring them to shift from their standard paradigm of lining heavies up at medium range, parking, and firing.

(yeah, I'm a grognard, get off my lawn.)

there was a while, when Ral Partha N. America was down and their replacement wasn't up yet, that you could get Hawk Moth and Yellowjacket castings for about half the price of a blister of Warrior H-7's-because the H-7's worked, and the newer designs didn't. everything at that time was secondary market and back-stocks, and a lot of stores thought Battletech Was Dead (Fanpro was just getting rolling).

why did the lighter, lower-tech, statistically weaker design sell for more? because more people wanted it, because unlike the heavier, more advanced, slower designs, they worked.

which is kind of opposite-world from Battlemechs, where bigger and heavier with bigger guns is necessarily better.

further, the "Hind equivalent" in terms of canon birds, is the Pinto, which is actually pretty good, or the H-10 (infantry version of the H-8).

thing is, these don't require edge-case rules to be effective, you can run them out of TacOps, (Book one of the multivolume "core rules" published in colorfully arted hardback), no extra books needed..

well, unless you're building customs, then you can run tech manual with it.

last I checked, that's a forty dollar difference at the gaming store, and a couple  pounds less to lug around (leaving room for things like minis, and snacks, and dice, and dice boxes...)

and while the layout is...well...really not user friendly if you're not using a PDF on a laptop, it's still less shit to keep track of, and fewer gentleman's agreements to periodically review.

(though to be fair, you DO lose some options, like artillery, certain special munitions, primitive  unit rules, Flak ammo, minefields and fire).

the fundamental problem is one of approach.  I tend to dislike having to memorize a host of exceptions or explain a host of exceptions to someone new to the game, particularly when they probably don't already own the rulebook those exceptions are detailed in, much less have it memorized.

in simple terms, we're looking at two different games here, both with the same name.  the configuration of 'canon' optional rules is as good as running 'house rules', because it's only going to apply within  your group, and only so long as your group agrees to use those specific rules in a specific interpretation.

which is local to your particular gaming group.

I tend to look at a broader range of potential players-particularly new players, the friends/girlfriends/random con-goers and the like, who may have enough grasp of gaming in total to handle the broader range of rules quickly, but aren't so invested that they have every book and table memorized (correctly or incorrectly), and certainly aren't party to my specific locale's chosen options.

you know, the 'casuals' that used to be the lifeblood of this game, not the obsessive experts that have become something of a majority of the vocal community.

basically, when you're bringing in the new kid, showing off a godmode chopper that's covered in exceptionite armor isn't the right way to introduce it, espl. if you're hoping he's going to stick with the game and evangelize to his friends, because the next group he hits, may not share that specific configuration of allowed optional rules.

because they might not even HAVE those books, or there might be ONE copy in the whole area, and it's owned by a guy who only shows up once or twice in a blue moon.

my final point is thus;

wrap a 3026 Warrior H-7 (the 10/15 one that's over 20  years old, not the 9/14 nerfed one out of the 3039 book) in Ferro Lamellor, and fly it with a load of AP rounds for the AC/2 into one of your games..see if the other players throw their dice at you.  (or precision rounds, either one).  for extra shits and giggles, toss something 'special' from the same rulebook into the SRM-4's ammo bin, but fly it like it's not benefitting from edge case rules. (Oh, and load it with all the positive quirks your'e using to make your F/L "Hinds" work.)

you might have to do the math by hand, I don't know if the current crop of approved generator programs can do the math for you on that...

but just try it.

the edge-cases  your'e using to make those slow beasts viable, makes an actually GOOD design brutal.  (when handled correctly)

[Retry]

except by your own admission, it takes HOW MANY hits? Oh right...they don't do any damage.

which means you have to get a motive system crit every hit to do what you're describing if you're NOT playing with "Quirks".

6 isn't that many when you can consistently hit with LB-Xs and HAGs.  A mere 2 hits slows it down to 4/6 which is insanely easy to hit with non cluster weapons, in which case the cluster stuff has done its job.

The "quirks" have nothing to do with it and any vehicle without the AA quirk with just a LB-X or HAG can easily accomplish the same thing.

Effectively, you're in a group that's selected the optional rules  you want, then applied that selection to the general community as if it were assumed.

No, I went through a few examples of additional possibilities that can make these VTOLs less effective.  The old tried-and-true "spray em with clusters" works on VTOLs regardless of rule set.

further, the "Hind equivalent" in terms of canon birds, is the Pinto, which is actually pretty good, or the H-10 (infantry version of the H-8).

The Pinto is pretty good, true.  Better Hind equivalents can be made.

I tend to look at a broader range of potential players-particularly new players, the friends/girlfriends/random con-goers and the like, who may have enough grasp of gaming in total to handle the broader range of rules quickly, but aren't so invested that they have every book and table memorized (correctly or incorrectly), and certainly aren't party to my specific locale's chosen options.

you know, the 'casuals' that used to be the lifeblood of this game, not the obsessive experts that have become something of a majority of the vocal community.

basically, when you're bringing in the new kid, showing off a godmode chopper that's covered in exceptionite armor isn't the right way to introduce it, espl. if you're hoping he's going to stick with the game and evangelize to his friends, because the next group he hits, may not share that specific configuration of allowed optional rules.

Obviously the newbies don't start off by showing off a 'god-mode' chopper.  They start with IS 3025 era Lance-on-Lance combat without all the complex rules and are periodically introduced to higher tech levels, Clan tech, Vehicles, infantry, BA, advanced rules from Tac Ops & Strat Ops, et cetera.

I don't actually see how this is relevant, as neither I nor the OP have implied that we're using F-L helicopters to introduce people to BT.

because they might not even HAVE those books, or there might be ONE copy in the whole area, and it's owned by a guy who only shows up once or twice in a blue moon.

I can find PDFs for Tech Manual, Total Warfare, Tactical Operations, Strategic Operations, and Interstellar Operations freely available on the net, which covers most of the equipment you'll ever find on stuff.  The wiki on Sarna, while not totally reliable, can be a useful source for looking up something that you've never heard of before as well.

my final point is thus;

wrap a 3026 Warrior H-7 (the 10/15 one that's over 20  years old, not the 9/14 nerfed one out of the 3039 book) in Ferro Lamellor, and fly it with a load of AP rounds for the AC/2 into one of your games..see if the other players throw their dice at you.  (or precision rounds, either one).  for extra shits and giggles, toss something 'special' from the same rulebook into the SRM-4's ammo bin, but fly it like it's not benefitting from edge case rules. (Oh, and load it with all the positive quirks your'e using to make your F/L "Hinds" work.)

but just try it.

First, not a single quirk goes into making the F/L hinds functional, the birds are perfectly usable without them (and my favorite custom only has 1 quirk that doesn't actually affect performance on the Tabletop.)

Secondly, they always fly as though it's not benefitting from edge case rules.  The F-L makes them more resilient, they're still not flying tanks.

As for loading special ammo... that's pretty much the norm.  Not for the lower tech newbie-training games, but for screwing around at the company level or larger we like using those.  Not AP AC/2 ammo though, that stuff's junk.

the edge-cases  your'e using to make those slow beasts viable, makes an actually GOOD design brutal.  (when handled correctly)

While the 3025-ish era Warrior H-7 is cheap and performs acceptably for the time period, it doesn't age well, and F-L doesn't make it anywhere close to "brutal".

[Cannonshop]

6 isn't that many when you can consistently hit with LB-Xs and HAGs.  A mere 2 hits slows it down to 4/6 which is insanely easy to hit with non cluster weapons, in which case the cluster stuff has done its job.

The "quirks" have nothing to do with it and any vehicle without the AA quirk with just a LB-X or HAG can easily accomplish the same thing.

No, I went through a few examples of additional possibilities that can make these VTOLs less effective.  The old tried-and-true "spray em with clusters" works on VTOLs regardless of rule set.

The Pinto is pretty good, true.  Better Hind equivalents can be made.

Obviously the newbies don't start off by showing off a 'god-mode' chopper.  They start with IS 3025 era Lance-on-Lance combat without all the complex rules and are periodically introduced to higher tech levels, Clan tech, Vehicles, infantry, BA, advanced rules from Tac Ops & Strat Ops, et cetera.

I don't actually see how this is relevant, as neither I nor the OP have implied that we're using F-L helicopters to introduce people to BT.

I can find PDFs for Tech Manual, Total Warfare, Tactical Operations, Strategic Operations, and Interstellar Operations freely available on the net, which covers most of the equipment you'll ever find on stuff.  The wiki on Sarna, while not totally reliable, can be a useful source for looking up something that you've never heard of before as well.

First, not a single quirk goes into making the F/L hinds functional, the birds are perfectly usable without them (and my favorite custom only has 1 quirk that doesn't actually affect performance on the Tabletop.)

Secondly, they always fly as though it's not benefitting from edge case rules.  The F-L makes them more resilient, they're still not flying tanks.

As for loading special ammo... that's pretty much the norm.  Not for the lower tech newbie-training games, but for screwing around at the company level or larger we like using those.  Not AP AC/2 ammo though, that stuff's junk.

While the 3025-ish era Warrior H-7 is cheap and performs acceptably for the time period, it doesn't age well, and F-L doesn't make it anywhere close to "brutal".

heheheh.

obviously you're using it wrong. I've had Clan fans throw the table over in frustration using those-and that was under the "More fragile" rules from BMR, no Maxtech at all, and no special ammo.

see, there's this trick, right? where you move your 'mechs before you move your VTOLs.  then you come in on their 'off angle' where they can choose to either shoot at you with one arm, and their rear mounts, (if they bothered having any) or they can fire both arms and the forward torso mounts at that battlemech who's closing into range.

about six times out of ten, most players will focus on one, or the other, about twice out of ten, they'll try to split their fires (taking the multitarget penalty), and about twice out of ten, they'll try to do something clever.

if you did it right, you've cruised to your shot position, and you're overlapping their 'long' with your 'medium', and you've kept plus four to plus five when it's all totaled up for your TMM.

so either he misses, or you've got a free shot, or both.  at the next move, you cruise-out unless your plot leads to a sideslip that's clear of terrain in case you miss that PSR, duck behind cover, and do it again.

15 points tht miss is worth less than 2 points that hit.  If your opponent is smart, he's bringing a shotgun (LBX) to th e party, that's -3 to hit you with cluster, if you don't want him having 6 or better, you need more  than 3, or you need range, or both.

if he's bringing something relatively fast, like a Donar, or a light 'mech, the only way you're going to get hits, is to out maneuver him. if it's hawt vtol-on-vtol action, position ends up being EVERYTHING, you have to get where his forward mounts can't engage while yours can.  you're not going to do that with 8/12 and more than likely, not doing it with 9/14.

of course, with Ferro-lamellor, you don't have to worry about the designs that are probably the most lethal VTOL on VTOL killers, because you get to ignore most of the damage, so again, position means very little, but the match is going to end up taking long enough that watching football becomes appealing as an alternative.

but that outcome is probably a significant part of the point-who wants to admit that their 30 ton big-gun monster chopper was taken out by a Ferret, or marten, or that little recovered-tech bird with the five little bitty lasers, right??

it's a bloody humiliation, it is.  (one I've delivered more than once.) a little less if it's a Cavalry doing it, but only just.

now what's interesting, is you're reversing yourself in your arguments-do you recall how this started?

Yah, I said 8/12 was too slow to be truly 'good'. I stand by that. It's "Mediocre", you brought up Ferro Lamellor as the 'cureall' and I countered, and now you're arguing it's no more powerful in practical terms, than regular armors, and therefore the same thing that I was mentioning before, still applies- because now you're claiming the hits to the rotor degrade flight, which was my basis to begin with, but it takes jst one more hit to do it, regardless of damage.

consider that, we've come full circle.  If it truly only takes one more hit, one more pellet?one more LRM/SRM/bittie laser or machinegun burst??

then  your initial argument is undermined.  It's still too easily killed thanks to the movement curve, and still too laggy to handle fast moving opposition or opponents with dedicated AA weapons, like FLAK ammo from your optional book, or LBX's, or those nifty AAA missile infantry, etc etc.

my initial point wasn't that 8/12 was totally useless-it's not, it's just not up to the hype in the fluff, which itself hypes designs that are not up to the hype in their own fluff.

it's adequate for the chaos march and maybe perphery, where opposition is mostly running 3025 era and primitive designs.  (truth be told, it's kind of overkill for those, but the speed is enough vulnerability to allow a clever defender to beat it...assuming your new argument is completely correct.)

what it is NOT, is adequate to face Clantech or better.

it lacks the movement to exploit its range against foes that can match its ranges because they're using the same gun.

it's not that big a deal-it's an upgunned and product improved Cyrano with adequate protection thanks to the diet it's on, (but without the speed).  It's easy to see how the Clans, with their peculiar 'honor' system would come up with the thing for Solahma units and garritroopers who mostly have to deal with sitting in barracks while the higher borns duke it out in the common with 'mechs over who gets to stand first i the lunch-line (while the civilians cower and pray to their non-gods for it to be over soon.)

what it isn't, is a superior design.  it has some expensive epeen armoring, and a big gun, and it's fine for scutwork jobs or would even be decent as a corporate security unit, chasing down bandits in obsolete 'mechs and half-running vehicles.

but that's a job that's fine and necessary, and it at least does it competently (Unlike the Yellowjacket).

there are ways it could do better, losing the extra five heat sinks and the edge of range on htat headcapper for a CLPL that only does ten heats, gives a to-hit bonus, and you can sink the mass into a decent speed would be better, for example-because that would be a NIGHTMARE for Inner sphere pilots to face-able to get position and apply damages readily even if they flank, because it would have the movement to get position on them, or get away if initiative is lost.

[Retry]

heheheh.

obviously you're using it wrong.  -snip-

Nope.  That trick doesn't work so well when clan ER larges, LB-5Xs and LB-2Xs all outrange your rig.  If you're getting to medium, the clan Large Pulse Laser and cERPPC also comes into play, in which case you have a whole 2 hex gap between being in your medium and his long range versus being in both of your medium ranges.  If you're at medium with an AC/2, the clan LB-10X comes into play, which isn't too shabby.  Later, the HAG series comes into play, against which the AC/2 simply cannot play the range game.

It fares better against Inner Sphere technology, if only just.  IS LB-2Xs and LB-5Xs contest the AC/2's range bracket quite well, and the IS LB-10X is nearly identical to the Clan version.  The Combine also starts producing the Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle.

The Warrior is obsolescent by 3100.

Yah, I said 8/12 was too slow to be truly 'good'. I stand by that. It's "Mediocre", you brought up Ferro Lamellor as the 'cureall' and I countered, and now you're arguing it's no more powerful in practical terms, than regular armors, and therefore the same thing that I was mentioning before, still applies- because now you're claiming the hits to the rotor degrade flight, which was my basis to begin with, but it takes jst one more hit to do it, regardless of damage.

You need to pay closer attention.  That was specifically in reference to the Yellow-Jacket which is a 6/9 mover, not an 8/12.  I argued that it's not some super god armor that makes the VTOL invincible, but it allows an 8/12 mover to take 3 or 4 hits to the rotor and make it back home.

my initial point wasn't that 8/12 was totally useless-it's not, it's just not up to the hype in the fluff, which itself hypes designs that are not up to the hype in their own fluff.

Reasonable argument on the latter designs, though one thing to note is that both Moth and Yellow Jacket use cheap ICEs so they would be cheaper to produce than Mech designs and even many tank carriers.  I've found Hawk Moth-esque designs work out a lot better on large maps.  So do faster VTOLs, of course, but a Warrior's two point hits aren't quite as impressive as a Hawk Moth's 8 point hit.  Still prefer my pseudo-moths to be 10/15 if I can get them, personally.

Considering the in-universe appeal of the Hawk Moth and Yellow Jacket, this one would also appeal to many, including/especially Hell's horses, regardless of how you (or I) personally rate this design.

it's not that big a deal-it's an upgunned and product improved Cyrano with adequate protection thanks to the diet it's on, (but without the speed).  It's easy to see how the Clans, with their peculiar 'honor' system would come up with the thing for Solahma units and garritroopers who mostly have to deal with sitting in barracks while the higher borns duke it out in the common with 'mechs over who gets to stand first i the lunch-line (while the civilians cower and pray to their non-gods for it to be over soon.)

It's an upgunned and up-armored Hawk Moth.  It's also a Hell's Horses design so it's probably going to be used in front-line toumans, possibly in cavalry or strike clusters.

what it isn't, is a superior design.

Compared to what, and for what?  It's superior compared to either the Hawk Math or the Yellow Jacket by a considerable margin, which is what he seems to be comparing it to.  In the long range fire support role, it's about equivalent to, slightly better than, the Donar.  It probably won't win in a dogfight against either the Donar or the Balac, and certainly not against a Gossamer, but doctrinally it doesn't need to.

there are ways it could do better, losing the extra five heat sinks and the edge of range on htat headcapper for a CLPL that only does ten heats, gives a to-hit bonus, and you can sink the mass into a decent speed would be better, for example-because that would be a NIGHTMARE for Inner sphere pilots to face-able to get position and apply damages readily even if they flank, because it would have the movement to get position on them, or get away if initiative is lost.

This we can agree on.  A LPL would be absolutely nasty on this thing and you could probably propel this to 10/15 even while keeping the standard engine.  You could even drop the tonnage.  But then it'd look like a Donar variant...

[Cannonshop]

Nope.  That trick doesn't work so well when clan ER larges, LB-5Xs and LB-2Xs all outrange your rig.  If you're getting to medium, the clan Large Pulse Laser and cERPPC also comes into play, in which case you have a whole 2 hex gap between being in your medium and his long range versus being in both of your medium ranges.  If you're at medium with an AC/2, the clan LB-10X comes into play, which isn't too shabby.  Later, the HAG series comes into play, against which the AC/2 simply cannot play the range game.

It fares better against Inner Sphere technology, if only just.  IS LB-2Xs and LB-5Xs contest the AC/2's range bracket quite well, and the IS LB-10X is nearly identical to the Clan version.  The Combine also starts producing the Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle.

The Warrior is obsolescent by 3100.

You need to pay closer attention.  That was specifically in reference to the Yellow-Jacket which is a 6/9 mover, not an 8/12.  I argued that it's not some super god armor that makes the VTOL invincible, but it allows an 8/12 mover to take 3 or 4 hits to the rotor and make it back home.

Reasonable argument on the latter designs, though one thing to note is that both Moth and Yellow Jacket use cheap ICEs so they would be cheaper to produce than Mech designs and even many tank carriers.  I've found Hawk Moth-esque designs work out a lot better on large maps.  So do faster VTOLs, of course, but a Warrior's two point hits aren't quite as impressive as a Hawk Moth's 8 point hit.  Still prefer my pseudo-moths to be 10/15 if I can get them, personally.

Considering the in-universe appeal of the Hawk Moth and Yellow Jacket, this one would also appeal to many, including/especially Hell's horses, regardless of how you (or I) personally rate this design.

It's an upgunned and up-armored Hawk Moth.  It's also a Hell's Horses design so it's probably going to be used in front-line toumans, possibly in cavalry or strike clusters.

Compared to what, and for what?  It's superior compared to either the Hawk Math or the Yellow Jacket by a considerable margin, which is what he seems to be comparing it to.  In the long range fire support role, it's about equivalent to, slightly better than, the Donar.  It probably won't win in a dogfight against either the Donar or the Balac, and certainly not against a Gossamer, but doctrinally it doesn't need to.
This we can agree on.  A LPL would be absolutely nasty on this thing and you could probably propel this to 10/15 even while keeping the standard engine.  You could even drop the tonnage.  But then it'd look like a Donar variant...

The five point rotor under TW rules has about as much survival chance on a practical level as the 6  hit rotor-because you still drop, it's just that the FL rotor's easier to salvage later (assuming you don't explode when  you impact...)

so really, the advantage is in scrap recovery.  Most of the things that are worth throwing at a 5 point rotor, will inflict about the same amount of hits...  to the rotor.  (it's really rare that at 1/10 points, minimum 1, you only take five hits in a session, at least, if they get targeting solutions better than 11...consistently).  Speed, not armor, is the 'armor of VTOL units'.

that said, I suppose the Hell's Horses really do hate their aviators and want to see them fail and die, if they're willing to put them in this, instead of the more ubiquitous (and more manueverable, faster, etc.) Donar.

either that, or their aviation engineers need to spend some time looking at crashed, as opposed to damaged, airframes to eliminate survivorship bias in their analysis as preparation for developing new designs.

Likewise, Michaelson Heavy Industries (maker of the Yellowjacket AND the Hawk Moth) maybe should be subjected to an investigation for procurement corruption, but since they probably have a board stuffed with important minor nobles...but then, what do most Inner Sphere nobles and mercs do when they aren't involved in a major war? Oh, right...they shoot civilians, and the Yellowjacket's kind of overkill, but not really, for that job. bouncing a gauss round through a slum can definitely kill a whole lot of rioters just with the shockwave of it's passing, and there's always 'silver bullet' (aka cluster) shot from it...

what the Yellowjacket is NOT good for, is shooting that poland model a at anything that, you know, actually shoots back.

[Retry]

The five point rotor under TW rules has about as much survival chance on a practical level as the 6  hit rotor-because you still drop, it's just that the FL rotor's easier to salvage later (assuming you don't explode when  you impact...)

The non F-L rotor has very good chances past the 2nd rotor hit to simply blow the rotor off immediately (internals have automatic crits chances), but this isn't very relevant to the current situation since we're not putting F-L on a Yellow Jacket, it's on an 8/12 platform.

that said, I suppose the Hell's Horses really do hate their aviators and want to see them fail and die, if they're willing to put them in this, instead of the more ubiquitous (and more manueverable, faster, etc.) Donar.

They do use Donars, but there is a role to be filled by a heavier-hitting gun on a VTOL chassis.  There's better ways to do it, but not a lot of cheaper ways.  Removing the probe for a chin turret would make it more useful for minimal loss, and cheaper too.

Likewise, Michaelson Heavy Industries (maker of the Yellowjacket AND the Hawk Moth) maybe should be subjected to an investigation for procurement corruption, but since they probably have a board stuffed with important minor nobles...but then, what do most Inner Sphere nobles and mercs do when they aren't involved in a major war? Oh, right...they shoot civilians, and the Yellowjacket's kind of overkill, but not really, for that job. bouncing a gauss round through a slum can definitely kill a whole lot of rioters just with the shockwave of it's passing, and there's always 'silver bullet' (aka cluster) shot from it...

Of course, the Yellowjacket may very well work a bit better in-universe than it does in the typical user's game, which often is played on fields not much larger than your typical Solaris 7 arena.  After all, the game itself is just an abstraction or simulation of the universe, and there's several different iterations of this abstraction: The Total Warfare rules differ from the Solaris Rules, which differ from the Battleforce rules, which differ from the Alpha Strike rules, which differ from AToW rules.

And the normal gauss rifle can't use cluster shot, you need a specific gauss rifle called the Silver Bullet for that.

[Cannonshop]

The non F-L rotor has very good chances past the 2nd rotor hit to simply blow the rotor off immediately (internals have automatic crits chances), but this isn't very relevant to the current situation since we're not putting F-L on a Yellow Jacket, it's on an 8/12 platform.
They do use Donars, but there is a role to be filled by a heavier-hitting gun on a VTOL chassis.  There's better ways to do it, but not a lot of cheaper ways.  Removing the probe for a chin turret would make it more useful for minimal loss, and cheaper too.

Of course, the Yellowjacket may very well work a bit better in-universe than it does in the typical user's game, which often is played on fields not much larger than your typical Solaris 7 arena.  After all, the game itself is just an abstraction or simulation of the universe, and there's several different iterations of this abstraction: The Total Warfare rules differ from the Solaris Rules, which differ from the Battleforce rules, which differ from the Alpha Strike rules, which differ from AToW rules.

And the normal gauss rifle can't use cluster shot, you need a specific gauss rifle called the Silver Bullet for that.

Larger maps actually emphasize the weaknesses of the design concepts, though.  Faster birds are still better in practical terms, the larger the map you're using.

see, aside from the AC/2, longer-range weapons tend to be in classes that can hurt rotors, even with the damage nerf in TW's ruleset, while larger maps mean that the ability to maintain force cohesiveness and superior positioning generally mitigates "Low damage" if that damage is actually able to be applied vs. high damage that is very hard to apply consistently.

IN other words, "The bigger  your playing field, the more speed is an asset instead of a gimmick."

[truetanker]

Thought it was this lil' pic:



TT

 ;D

[Retry]

Larger maps actually emphasize the weaknesses of the design concepts, though.  Faster birds are still better in practical terms, the larger the map you're using.

see, aside from the AC/2, longer-range weapons tend to be in classes that can hurt rotors, even with the damage nerf in TW's ruleset, while larger maps mean that the ability to maintain force cohesiveness and superior positioning generally mitigates "Low damage" if that damage is actually able to be applied vs. high damage that is very hard to apply consistently.

IN other words, "The bigger  your playing field, the more speed is an asset instead of a gimmick."

I'm no stranger to the benefits of speed in large-battlefield operations.  It's also true that slower yet air-mobile vehicles like the Yellow Jacket and Hawk Moth benefits from not being confined in a Solaris VII Arena and keep at the edge of their range brackets consistently.

This VTOL could easily be modified with an XLE with 10/15 (or god forbid, an XXLE with 12/15)movement minimum changes (maybe remove the probe for a Light probe or more armor), that'll check your speed box easily but it won't be as easy to produce or cheap, which could harm its strategic utility.

[Cannonshop]

I'm no stranger to the benefits of speed in large-battlefield operations.  It's also true that slower yet air-mobile vehicles like the Yellow Jacket and Hawk Moth benefits from not being confined in a Solaris VII Arena and keep at the edge of their range brackets consistently.

This VTOL could easily be modified with an XLE with 10/15 (or god forbid, an XXLE with 12/15)movement minimum changes (maybe remove the probe for a Light probe or more armor), that'll check your speed box easily but it won't be as easy to produce or cheap, which could harm its strategic utility.

If your VTOL has to hang back at the edges of gauss range, why would you put an active probe on it, as opposed to a platform that can actually conduct reconnaissance?  I mean, the use you're suggesting precludes the unit doing recon, since to have or maintain that range, you necessarily have to already know where the enemy's forces are before contact.

(suggested: Look up the range on an active probe, compare to the ranges of CERPPC, Light Gauss.)

at those distances, you might as well be using a tank.  The problem of slower VTOL units in particular, is that the method of employment is better carried out by a different type of chassis, one that may lack air-mobility, because in terrain where airmobile is important, the other side has VTOLs too, and units like Yellowjacket or Hawk moth are victims, not hunters.

[Retry]

If your VTOL has to hang back at the edges of gauss range, why would you put an active probe on it, as opposed to a platform that can actually conduct reconnaissance?  I mean, the use you're suggesting precludes the unit doing recon, since to have or maintain that range, you necessarily have to already know where the enemy's forces are before contact.

(suggested: Look up the range on an active probe, compare to the ranges of CERPPC, Light Gauss.)

at those distances, you might as well be using a tank.  The problem of slower VTOL units in particular, is that the method of employment is better carried out by a different type of chassis, one that may lack air-mobility, because in terrain where airmobile is important, the other side has VTOLs too, and units like Yellowjacket or Hawk moth are victims, not hunters.

The active probe confuses me too, the Horses already have a Recon Donar variant that can do that particular job better, so the new vehicle should just focus on fire support.

The Active Probe's range against hidden units is 5 hexes.  For detecting units in double blind mode, its maximum detection range is much higher though.

[Cannonshop]

The active probe confuses me too, the Horses already have a Recon Donar variant that can do that particular job better, so the new vehicle should just focus on fire support.

The Active Probe's range against hidden units is 5 hexes.  For detecting units in double blind mode, its maximum detection range is much higher though.

IIRC, it's not "Gauss rifle or Light Gauss" range, however.

Double blind mode is great, when you can arrange the match, one of the things doing it often enough does, is show how much reconaissance elements are actually worth relative to arena fighters that are so popular (and which, well, the phalligun-slowboats appear mostly intended to be.)

Units like the Mantis really shine in both double-blind, and against other VTOLs, while being kind of weaksauce in your typical game, but double-blind is also a great demonstration of how using terrain is important, which in turn makes that 'cruise' speed is so necessary to be high.

[Retry]

IIRC, it's not "Gauss rifle or Light Gauss" range, however.

The Clan AP, when used as a sensor, can 'blip' units out to 15/30/45 hexes.  IIRC the Bloodhound does 16/32/48, and the rest of the "integral" unit sensors are not nearly as powerful, especially for vehicles (their Radars have shorter range brackets).  Max visual range is like 60 hexes to detect a Battlemech in ideal conditions, but probes and stuff shines in poor visual conditions like at night or underwater.  A bit complex to deal with without automation.

[Cannonshop]

The Clan AP, when used as a sensor, can 'blip' units out to 15/30/45 hexes.  IIRC the Bloodhound does 16/32/48, and the rest of the "integral" unit sensors are not nearly as powerful, especially for vehicles (their Radars have shorter range brackets).  Max visual range is like 60 hexes to detect a Battlemech in ideal conditions, but probes and stuff shines in poor visual conditions like at night or underwater.  A bit complex to deal with without automation.

so they finally updated the rules to make them viable, or is this another strat-ops add-on?

[Retry]

so they finally updated the rules to make them viable, or is this another strat-ops add-on?

Well, Sensor Detection in Double-Blind would be Tac Ops, so it'd be somewhere there, not Strat-ops.

[AngryButler with a KNIFE!]

*sits in the back row, eating popcorn*

Oh don't mind me, please, continue the debate. I'm just here to take notes/eat popcorn.  :)

The Active Probe was something I added because of double-blind games against players that loved to sneak in BAs as close as possible to me. Since most of the time they didn't pack the longer ranging weapons that BAs can use (or alternatively, could only do 'plink' damage further out), the range of the active probe was generally enough to warn me it was time to move. Also it works well if I'm flying below max map height elevation (solid ground, buildings, trees, or other) and got too close to something. Since that's normally 5+ hexes of obstacles between me and whatever that is, unless said units have jumpjets, are a loitering VTOL/low-flying WiGE, or a rare LAM, that generally is more than enough space that I can turn and put additional space between me and whatever it is. Generally its only units with jumpjets I need to worry about.

Even when not in double-blind, I can use the active probe as a 'tripwire'. I like to keep a template on hand (I have both a hex-shaped one and a circular one, depending on if we're using mapsheets, or open tabletop) that I can use to tell if I'm too close while moving, or if someone moves too close. In either case, see the above - time to re-position. Works fine if I have a clear shot at a target from long range, know that I'm being flanked but I have an obstacle between me and them. The instant they cross it, I move. Or in short, I don't use it 'actively' to deliberately go looking for hidden targets, but as a passive warning of hidden units I need to get away from.