Unhappy with LAMs: brainstorming

[Atarlost]

I have three problems with LAMs.  I don't like that the hybrid airmech mode dominates their use, I don't like that they are incompetent as ASF, and I don't like that the way they scale or don't scale with advanced tech. 

I would like airmech mode to be niche and preferably not require using the rules for a relatively new and rare vehicle type.  Ideally I'd like them to operate under modified mech rules. 

I would like a Star League LAM to be as good as a primitive ASF.  As an example of how it isn't, Currently it is impossible to duplicate the SB-26 Sabre as a LAM without using composite structure, improved jumpjets, a small cockpit, and Clantech ERSL to substitute for the original's medium lasers.  And it still comes up with half the fuel.  That's two non-SL IS techs and a Clan tech.  Duplicating the S-2 Star Dagger requires composite structure, improved jumpjets, and a compact gyro and for the LAM to be allowed to carry additional fuel on a ton for ton basis.  If forced to use internal bomb bays for drop pods it has to also use a small cockpit.  That's three non-SL IS techs.  And in either case you have to get into Wobbie cybernetics or Clan eugenics to get around or offset the small cockpit piloting penalty, which is a bigger deal for ASFs than mechs.  Without Jihad tech current LAMs cannot even approach the capabilities of primitive ASF. 

LAMs can benefit from Jihad tech in the form of improved jumpjets, but not from the advanced tech available when they were originally developed.  With 3025 tech surviving LAMs are peers to mechs around 3/4 their weight and I feel this should extend to other eras.  I believe LAMs should have more access to Star League advanced tech and not be so reliant on munchkining Jihad era tech. 

The four principal difficulties for LAMs as ASF are mass spent on stuff an ASF wouldn't need(1), getting at best (barring IJJ) conventional fighter performance per engine rating(2), having fuel issues in vacuum (3) (IIRC they were first used in an asteroid field so this is also a lore problem), and having a lack of critical slots in sections that map to the nose or aft arcs (4). 

With those complaints and that break down the LAM as ASF issues as a premise here's my brainstorming. 

• LAMs may not mount components across multiple locations, but may split crits for internal structure and armor.  This mitigates ASF issue 1 and the inapplicability of Star League era advanced tech.
• LAMs may not mount components across multiple locations, but may split crits for internal structure and armor but may not use ferro-whatever armor because ground and aerospace ferro-whatever armor are not interchangeable.  This mitigates ASF issue 1 and the inapplicability of Star League era advanced tech.
• The limitation on splitting components on LAMs only applies to weapons.  This mitigates ASF issue 1 and makes all Star League tech applicable.
• LAMs use their jump+2 as their safe thrust.  This directly addresses ASF issue 2.
• LAMs receive free gyroscopic thrust per turn equal to half (as a first guess; could be a third) their walk speed as mechs.  These gyroscopic thrust points may only be used for facing changes and do not consume fuel.  This partially addresses issue 1 by giving the gyro a role in ASF mode and issue 3 by reducing fuel needs.
• LAMs may mount fuel tanks at a crit per ton.  This directly addresses ASF issue 3.
• LAMs do not mount a gyro.  Instead they use ther verniers for stability even in mech mode, expending a point of fuel every time they make a piloting check to avoid falling, but having no chance of failure.  This partially adresses ASF issue 1 and requires issue 3 be addressed.
• LAM conversion equipment is massless but they receive no free fuel and consume fuel in atmosphere as ASF.  This addresses ASF issue 1 while attempting to impose the same problem on mech mode to make up for removing a mass penalty that applied to both modes.
• The weight of trimodal and bimodal LAM conversion equipment is switched.  This addresses my not liking the airmech mode dominating LAM use by making it cost instead of nerfing it.
• The arms of a LAM in ASF mode fold into positions where their weapons fire in the nose arc.  This addresses ASF issue 4.
• LAM center torsos have an additional 6 critical slots extending the usual method for simulating 1d12 with 2d6 to simulate 1d18.  This addresses ASF issue 4.
• LAMs may mount external ordnance as an ASF if launched as an ASF but must use or jettisoning it before transforming.  This kind of addresses ASF issue 3 indirectly. 
• LAMs cannot mount jumpjets.  They receive jump MP equal to their walk MP for free.  This partially addresses ASF issue 1 and denies Jihad era IJJ munchkinry.
• LAMs in airmech mode function as mechs with 2/3 of their walk MP, no torso twist, and jump MP equal to their normal jump MP plus 2.
• LAMs in airmech mode function as mechs with 2/3 of their walk MP, no torso twist, and jump MP equal to 150% of their normal jump MP.
• LAMs in airmech mode function as mechs with 2/3 of their walk MP and no torso twist.  As an alternative to normal jumping movement they may instead jump without turning as if they had mechanical jump boosters with movement equal to twice (or possibly 2.5x or 3x) their normal jumping movement.
• LAMs in airmech mode function as mechs with 2/3 of their walk MP and no torso twist or as vtols with cruise MP equal to their jump MP.

[Sabelkatten]

How would a Stinger LAM look and work with your rules? I'd like to compare it to my LAM rules.

[Atarlost]

How would a Stinger LAM look and work with your rules? I'd like to compare it to my LAM rules.

I don't know.  I don't have a single set of rules yet, just some ideas that need sifting.  That's why I started the thread. 

[Col Toda]

Much of your issues revolve around too much tonnage is expended for conversion equipment and standard fusion engine .  The biggest reason that LAMs do not equate well to purpose built counterparts is that the mechs and aerospace fighters are far better designed in later years and have access to light and XL engines . My LAM designs revolve around using composite internal Structure and a small cockpit to offset the conversion equipment somewhat .  In a 20 ton LAM it provides the 2 tons on heavier LAMs it does not completely pay for it . A back stabber may have a Vairable Pulse Lasers . A scirmisher a snub nosed ppc or a light AC 2 w precision rounds . i OS missile launchers to round it out . Still not quite as nice as a very well designed purpose built unit but it will be about as good as an average one and better than poorly designed units . As average and poorly designed models do exceed tight well designed models by at least 2 to 1 or more depending on ERA such designs should at least make an OK showing . Play against enthusiastic ham fisted idiots you will appear to get the results you desire . In truth I only expect LAMs in difficult to ply a conventional landed drop ship deployed operation . It is a special forces operations niche unit and using it as a line unit is just not a fair representation of it"s role .

[Red Pins]

Well...  One of the biggest reasons for the conversion gear is the three shapes.  In my AU, I take away the option of transforming into either ASF or full Battlemech, so I save on the conversion gear.  Why not go for a full ASF/Airmech option, cutting off a third of the conversion gear weight in exchange for no Battlemech option?

For all the rest, you're going to have to try playtesting to come up with something that doesn't break the game, or nobody will play anything else.  At that point you may as well play a different game of giant robots rather than keep coming up with your own.  Good luck - playtesters are scarce.

[Retry]

Much of your issues revolve around too much tonnage is expended for conversion equipment and standard fusion engine .  The biggest reason that LAMs do not equate well to purpose built counterparts is that the mechs and aerospace fighters are far better designed in later years and have access to light and XL engines . My LAM designs revolve around using composite internal Structure and a small cockpit to offset the conversion equipment somewhat .  In a 20 ton LAM it provides the 2 tons on heavier LAMs it does not completely pay for it . A back stabber may have a Vairable Pulse Lasers . A scirmisher a snub nosed ppc or a light AC 2 w precision rounds . i OS missile launchers to round it out . Still not quite as nice as a very well designed purpose built unit but it will be about as good as an average one and better than poorly designed units . As average and poorly designed models do exceed tight well designed models by at least 2 to 1 or more depending on ERA such designs should at least make an OK showing . Play against enthusiastic ham fisted idiots you will appear to get the results you desire . In truth I only expect LAMs in difficult to ply a conventional landed drop ship deployed operation . It is a special forces operations niche unit and using it as a line unit is just not a fair representation of it"s role .

Sure, but how would getting rid of some arbitrary restrictions (the Biped-only LAM restriction, the 55-ton weight limit, bulky equipment, armor, and engine restrictions) make LAMs any less of a specialized unit?  If anything higher-end LAMs with higher performance (XLEs & Endo-Steel etc) would make more sense for such a specialized unit to push the ends of the envelope, and it'd give LAMs a price-tag closer to what you'd expect.  Since LAMs are stuck with fusion engines, current LAM designs with all their fancy transformation gizmos usually end up being far cheaper than a typical front-line 'Mech with a light/XL engine & endo-steel construction.

[Red Pins]

Posted by request, good luck and enjoy.  Please note; I lost my only playtester early in the process, so there are inconsistencies between rules and the combat sample.  The construction rules are pretty clear, but remember you use the desired walk to calculate engine size like a normal mech, then penalize it to 1/3rd movement, and the total # of Jump Jets is limited by the desired walk before getting multiplied.

You also have to spend Jump points to 'Launch' and 'Land', and you better spend jump points to climb elevations to avoid trees or you're gonna crash. If you have it, PAMs roughly follow the rules in the canon book, The Tactical Handbook.

You can PM me if you need help figuring it out, suggest something, or want the rest of the New Clans' Unique Technology file.

PERMANENT AIRMECHS

   The lineage of PAMs built in the Legacy Cluster can be traced back to the original Star League LAM brought to the Cluster with the survivors of the Wolverine Annihilation.  Refurbished and used during the 3rd Exodus for its superb reconnaissance abilities, repair and maintenance problems eventually left it permanently in AirMech mode.
   Rather than a problem, the damage to its conversion gear actually extended its working lifetime, while other machines were scrapped to maintain its remaining systems during the Exodus.  Finally retired after the settlement of the Totem system, it was stored with the remainder of the 331st’s surplus equipment in the Haven Castle Brian.
   Eventually, the discarded LAM technology became the subject of an intense scrutiny by the Frost Apes looking for technology and equipment to adapt for use in their Touman.  Supplied with the abandoned chassis, Frost Ape technicians quickly realized the technology of its conversion gear was too advanced for the New Clans to duplicate.  A technician noted, however, the LAM was repairable with commonly available tools if parts could be found or made.
   As the list of repairs and upgrades were categorized, engineers found most of the advanced technology needed for the conversion process could be ignored if the team was willing to settle for returning the AirMech to service.  With that in mind, Scientists prepared detailed blueprints for the first New Clan PAM design.  During the process, it was discovered the material strengths exceeded requirements for a 55-ton unit, leading to the development of the Heavy PAM.
   Today, PAMs are still primarily scouts and harassers, but Heavy PAMs have emerged as the preferred raiding unit.  Despite their relative scarcity, they seem likely to experience yet another boost in popularity as blueprints and samples of the Inner Sphere’s Improved Jump Jets make their way through Guide Teams to the Cluster’s Scientist and Technician Castes.

Construction Rules
PAMs are unique the New Clans, and may be designed as either full-sized units or Extra-Lights.  To simplify construction, the points below assume you have copies of the Battletech TechManual for charts (such as Internal Structure) and Tactical Operations by Catalyst.

Step 1:  Design the Chassis
In this Step, designers choose options to assemble a Permanent Air Mech.  Because designers have chosen to build a PAM, the necessary internal arrangements must follow set rules, such as the loss of arms.

Choose Tech Base
Because they are exclusive to the New Clans, a ‘Mixed’ Tech Base must be chosen.

Choose Weight (Tonnage)
PAMs range in weight from 20 to 75 tons.  Designers also have the option of creating a PAM on an ELM chassis, from 10 to 19 tons.

Allocate Tonnage For Internal Structure
PAMs calculate tonnage dedicated to Internal Structure the same way as standard Battlemechs, using the formula (Tonnage x 10%).  PAMs may use any kind of Inner Sphere or Clan Internal Structure available, according to the ATC.

Notes:
•   Designers should remember at this point that PAMs are not allowed arms, and no Arm critical slots exist on the Record Sheet.

Step 2:  Install Engines and Control Systems
PAMs have several mandatory requirements (such as Jump Jets) and penalties that must be observed, determining their performance in this Step.

Choose Engine
   PAMs are limited to Fusion Engines, and use the standard formula, Engine Rating = Tonnage x (Desired movement).
Because PAMs suffer from a 1/3rd ground movement penalty, multiply its Walk movement by .33 and round down before calculating its Run movement.  This is the unit’s final Walk/Run speed.

Determine Gyroscope Tonnage
   PAMs may use any Clan or Inner Sphere gyro technology, determining tonnage with the standard formula (Engine Rating/100) before applying any additional modifiers.

Determine Jump Capacity
   Light and Medium PAMs are allowed a number of standard Jump Jets equal to their original Desired Walk movement.  Heavy PAMs use their original Desired Walk movement and multiply by 1.5 to calculate the maximum number of Standard or Improved Jump Jets.

Add Cockpits
   Due to the need to accommodate the added avionics and controls, only standard Cockpits may be used.

Choose Special Physical Enhancements
Due to the nature of PAMs, Light and Medium units must assign 5% of their total weight and one Critical Slot to “PAM Equipment”, rounding fractions down to the nearest half-ton.  Heavy PAMs must assign 10% of their total weight and three critical slots to “PAM Equipment”. 
Limb Extensions are the sole type of optional Enhancements allowed to PAMs.

Notes:
•   Light and Medium PAMs may not use Improved Jump Jets.  Heavy PAMs may use Improved Jump Jets, subject to the Available Technology Chart.

Step 3:  Assign Heatsinks
Heatsinks are assigned normally, with fusion engines containing a number of heatsinks determined by the formula, (Engine Rating/25), rounded down. 

Notes:

Step 4:  Add Armor
   PAMs may only use standard, Ferro-Fibrous, Hardened, Laser Reflective, or Stealth armor, following their standard rules and consulting the Available Technology Chart. 

Notes:

Step 5:  Add Weapons, Ammunition, and other Equipment
   PAMs may not carry several types of weapons and equipment.
•   Weapons – HVACs, ACs larger than /10, Heavy Gauss Rifles, Heavy Lasers, and HAGs.
•   Equipment – Partial Wings, Turrets, CASE or CASE II, or UMUs.

Notes: 

Game Rules
   PAMs operate in a manner similar to VTOLs, using Jump Jets to take off, move, gain or loose elevation, and land.  PAMs also have the added risk of PSRs to land and complete turns at high speed.  To prevent confusion over LAM movement, there is also a detailed movement example at the end of this section.

Basic Movement
   PAMs are one of the most maneuverable types of units, while one of the most vulnerable at the same time.
•   ELM/PAMs, Light, and Medium PAMs have only 1/3rd the Walk speed of a normal ‘Mech and a Jump Bonus of (x3).  Heavy PAMs have 1/3rd the Walk speed of a normal ‘Mech and a Jump Bonus of only (x2).
o   ELM/PAMs that choose to expend more than (x2) their base Jump movement must roll a PSR before moving into the first hex over that limit to determine if the EWarrior looses control.
•   PAMs Jump at no cost in heat.
•   A PAM may not mix movement modes; It may Walk/Run (according to the rules for ‘Mechs) or Jump, but may not attempt to Walk and Launch.
•   At the beginning of each Movement Phase, a PAM must Launch itself into the air at a cost of 2 MP.  When Landing, it must make a PSR at –4 and pay 2 MP.  If a PAM suffers actuator damage to its legs, it loses its –4 modifier and adds the appropriate damage modifiers.
•   PAMs are unable to remain in the air at the end of the Movement Phase as LAMs do.  They are incapable of true flight.
•   ELM/PAMs, Light, and Medium PAMs have a unique movement option; Nape of the Earth flight.  PAMs may use up to double their base Jump movement to travel at ground level.  Note they must still pay the MP cost for Launching and Landing.  Because of the risks involved, PAMs are required to make a successful PSR before changing hex facing.  The target modifier for a successful turn increases by +3 every time it changes hex facings.
Ex.  A Light PAM chooses to attempt NotE flight.  After Launching and moving 5 hexes, it must turn a single hex face to the left.  Its base Pilot skill is a 4, so for its first PSR must roll 4+ on 2d6.  After continuing onward for 2 hexes, it must turn right two hex facings.  Its second PSR is now a 7 (base 4 + 3 for its first turn) and its third turn is a 10 (base 4 + 3 (for its first turn) + 3 (for its second turn)).  Afraid of crashing, the pilot decides to end his movement after changing his hex facing the second time.
A failed PSR during NotE movement causes a crash, in which the PAM takes 1 pt. of damage for every 5 tons, multiplied by the number of hexes moved in the last straight line before its turn.  Because the Pilot was trying to turn, he assigns damage to the opposite side (left turn, right side arc) arc.  Note the Pilot follows all rules for falling, including a PSR to avoid injury.
Ex.  A 35-ton PAM with Walk 2/ Run 3/ Jump 18 chooses to use NotE to cross the open ground in front of it, Launching and moving 9 hexes in a straight line.  Choosing to turn two hex faces left at the end of his movement, the Pilot misses his second PSR (base 4 + 3 (first turn)), and looses control.  Because his last straight-line movement was the nine hexes, he must assign 63 points of damage (35 tons / 5 = 7 pts x 9 hexes) in 5-point groups to the Right side arc.
•   If the Internal Structure of the Left or Right Torso is destroyed, the PAM looses its wing and Jump bonus.  It may Jump normally (as a standard Battlemech) with the remaining Jump Jets.

Combat Sample
Jane and her 35-ton Gryphon PAM is racing across the battlefield; Launching for 2 MP, she climbs 2 elevations to avoid crashing into the trees in her path, moves 13 hexes (one hex over her x2 Jump of 16), then turns to the left 1 hex facing (her 18th MP), and must roll a PSR to prevent sideslipping.  Successful, she moves 2 more hexes before dropping 2 levels and Landing, using her maximum Jump movement of 24.  Rolling a PSR at –4, she finds she has Landed safely.
Entering the map, Jane chooses to use NotE movement.  Launching for 2 MP, she moves along the open hexes along the side of the map.  Turning left after 3 hexes, she fails her PSR (base 4 + 0 (first turn)) by rolling 2 and crashes for 21 damage (35 tons / 5 = 7 pts of damage x 3 hexes traveled = 21 damage), assigned in 5-pt groups to her Right side on the Hit Location Table.  Rolling a second PSR, she finds she has avoided injury.  Determining facing after the fall, she finds she has come to a stop facing hex side #4.
   Seeing the opportunity to cripple the elusive PAM, her opponents rush to gain line-of-sight on her machine.  Since she has fallen, she must attempt to Stand.  Her PAM, with a 280 XL engine, has only a 2/3 movement (35 tons x 8 movement = 280 Engine Rating.  Since she is a PAM, she must calculate her 1/3rd ground movement penalty; 8 x .33 = 2.64, rounded down to 2.  With a 2 Walk MP, her Run becomes 2 x 1.5 = 3 MP.) and she decides to Run.  Standing on her first attempt, she moves further from her attackers and remains out of line-of-sight (remember, she can’t walk backwards at a run.
   Breathing a sigh of relief, she Launches in the next Turn, climbs 2 elevations to avoid the Light Woods in her path, and travels 9 hexes before dropping 2 levels and Landing behind an enemy Thor (for 17 MP).  Rolling a PSR at -4, she finds she has Landed safely.  In order to hit with her Medium Lasers, she needs an 8 (base 3 + 0 (short range) + 3 (attacker Jumped) + 2 (target movement)).  Unfortunately, Jane is struck by another ‘Mech with a Targeting Computer and a Large Pulse laser, piercing the armor on her right leg and destroying her Upper Leg actuator.
Jane has lost the-4 modifier to Landing in her PAM, and now has to roll a 5 (base 4 + 1Upper Leg Actuator destroyed) to remain standing. Landing successfully and avoiding doing further damage to her ‘Mech will now require a PSR of 5, rather than her previous target number of 0 (base 4 – 4 (no leg damage bonus)).
Rolling a successful Piloting Skill Roll, she decides to continue fighting.  Later in the game, Jane’s PAM loses the last of the Internal Structure in its Right Torso.  Because only a single Jump Jet was in the Torso, Jane can use her new Jump Movement of 5 from her remaining Jump Jets to retreat from the map. 

*edit - Yeah, the combat example gives it a 280 XL.  Because they don't transform, they can use the Endo/XL/whatever of normal units, a late change before my only playtester moved.  It gets really squished in terms of crits without arms, though.

[Sabelkatten]

The rules I put together a bunch of years ago:

Construction: Follow the classic (mech) design rules.
Standard LAM equipment weights 10% of total unit weight.
Limited LAM equipment that only allow two modes (Fighter/AirMech or Mech/AirMech for bipeds, Mech/Fighter for Quads) weight 6.66% of total unit weight.
The LAM equipment takes up 2 critical spaces each in the right/left torso and 2 in each arm on a biped, or 3 critical spaces each in the right/left torso on a quad.
1 space in each location on a biped or 2 per location on a quad are Flight Control Systems, the other spaces are Transformation Control Systems.
All equipment is allowed, but no equipment may be split between a torso and an arm or leg location.
LAMs do not have external hardpoints.

Mech Mode: As usual, a LAM in mech mode plays just like a normal mech.
AirMech Mode: A LAM in AirMech mode has its ground speed reduced to half normal (.5 rounds up). It can also operate as a VTOL with a cruise movement rating equal to 1.5 times the lowest of its jumping and walking MP (.5 rounds up). Add 1 MP if the unit mounts Partial Wings. If the unit mounts Improved Jump Jets add 1 MP if its jump MP is equal or lower than its walking MP, 2 if it is higher.
Flanking MP are calculated as usual.
When flying an AirMech builds up 2 heat by cruising and 3 heat by Flanking. It also suffers an additional +1 targeting penalty (+2 total cruising, +3 total flanking).
An AirMech that jumps can chose to end that movement in the air and to proceed with flying the next turn. Likewise a flying AirMech can chose to jump, but must then end the movement on the ground or it will fall. It may descend up to 3 times its jump MP number of levels safetly.
Fighter Mode: In fighter mode a LAM moves like a normal Aerospace Fighter. However it still uses standard mech firing arcs, armor arcs and hit location tables.
The LAMs thrust rating is equal to the lowest of its jumping and walking MP plus 2. Add 1 more MP if the unit mounts Improved Jump Jets.
A LAM has an internal fuel reserve of .25 tons per standard Jump Jet and .5 tons per Improved Jump Jet.
Damage:
A LAM that has lost a Shoulder or Hip Actuator and/or has taken a hit to a Transformation Control System space is stuck in whatever mode it is in until repair can be made.
A flying AirMech that suffers a critical hit to a Jump Jet or Flight Control System space must immediately make a piloting skill roll with a +2 modifier.
If a flying AirMech fails a piloting skill roll it falls 1D6 levels and can then make another roll to stop falling. Repeat until a roll succeeds or the LAM crashes.
A Hit to a Flight Control Systems in Fighter Mode is treated as a control surface hit for an ASF.

Heat: LAMs use the standard mech heat table, with one modification: When flying (in AirMech or Fighter Mode) it rolls for loss of control as an ASF instead of suffering a movement penalty. A LAM in AirMech mode that suffers loss of control falls as above.

One thing that never got added to these rules, only discussed, was that a LAM in AirMech mode should probably be extra vulnerable to damage. Specifically, on any hit of 5+ points roll a crit check at -5 plus 1 per 5 damage (i.e. a 5-point hit causes a crit on a '12', a 20-point hit on a '9' (2 crits on a '11').

[Red Pins]

Killed another LAM thread.   8)

[Phicksur]

Why no arms with your Airmech, Red Pins?

LAMs in AirMech mode are completely allowed to use their arms and hands.

[Phicksur]

Some rules I have been coming up with myself for AirMech-only mode, modifying the rules in Interstellar Operations. I call them StrikeMechs because they are more about speed and hitting hard and are essentially glass cannons:

Code: [Select]

Weighing up to 75 tons
Limited to bipedal Mechs
Minimum Jumping MP = 3
No Conversion Equipment necessary
No Landing Gear Critical Slots
Avionics Critical Slots in Head, LT, RT

Prohibited Technologies: same as LAM except those relating to additional critical slots (the lack of conversion equipment means that criticals can be spread around), or restrictions on engine types. Also, StrikeMechs may NOT mount Bomb Bays (but may carry bombs in their hands).

Treated as a LAM in Airmech mode for most rules.
Uses all AirMech Mode movement rules (including dual-Piloting skill requirements depending on whether or not it is in the air or the ground).

StrikeMech Cruise MP = lesser of Walking MP x 3 (x 2 if over 55 tons) or Jumping MP x 3 (x 2 if over 55 tons)
StrikeMech Flank MP = Cruise MP x 1.5 (round up)
StrikeMech Walk MP = Walking MP / 3 (round up)
StrikeMech Run MP = Walking MP x 1.5

Heat: Walk or Run MP = 1 / MP used
Heat: Cruise or Flank MP = 1 / 3 MP used - 3 Heat (to a minimum of 0) to account for the additional heat venting allowed by the design.
(Example: An StrikeMech which cruises for 19 MP generates (19/3 - 3) = 3 Heat)

Side-slipping, Skidding, Collisions, Unintentional Charging and Crashing are all the same rules as LAM Air-Mechs.
Transporting StrikeMechs is more awkward than LAMs because they are stuck between the two modes normally transported. As a result, Mech bays or Fighter Bays need to be completely converted to accommodate StrikeMechs and only StrikeMechs until they can be converted to transport a different type of unit. Essentially, they require a new type of transport bay specifically designed for them.
Utilizing these rules, I have the following twist on the Shadow Hawk, using OLD tech. 7 Points of weapons heat (if everything fired at once), 5 movement heat at max speed:

Name: ShadowHawk - S	SHD-SK
Tech:	Inner Sphere
Tonnage:		55 tons
Internal Structure	Standard	5.5 tons
Engine:	275	15.5 tons
Walk MP:	5
Run MP:	8
Cruise MP:	15
Flank MP:	23
Jump Jets:	Standard	2.5 tons
Gyro:	Standard	3 tons
Cockpit:	Standard	3 tons
Heat Sinks:	11	1 ton
Armor:	Standard	11.5 tons
Left Arm: 9 - 17	Head: 3 - 9	Right Arm: 9 - 18
Left Torso: 13 - 20/6	Center Torso: 18 - 28/8	Right Torso: 13 - 20/6
Left Leg: 13 - 26		Right Leg: 13 - 26
------
Equipment	Location	Mass
LRM-5	LT	2 tons
AC/5	RT	8 tons
Medium Laser	RA	1 tons
Small Laser	LA	.5 tons
LRM-5 Ammo	LT	1 ton
AC/5 Ammo	RT	1 ton
Jump Jets	2LT, 2RT, 1 CT

[Maingunnery]

I wish for improved bi-modal LAMs, with the concept centered around the question: "Why bother transforming the torso?"

Mechs such as the Bushwacker and other low chicken-walkers look just fine. And if the torso doesn't transform then it should lead to: More construction options, lighter conversion equipment, faster conversion, etc.

[Sabelkatten]

All LAM problems - rules-wise, at least - are really related to AirMech mode. Fix that and equipment limits are unnecessary.

I think I made them somewhat balanced (note that I allowed almost all equipment), but it's really hard nowadays. After all an AirMech should beat a VTOL, right? Mech vs/ vehicle and all that. With the boost VTOLs got in TW that's a tall order without keeping AirMech mode as an "I win" button... :(

[Easy]

cleanup

[Red Pins]

Why no arms with your Airmech, Red Pins?

LAMs in AirMech mode are completely allowed to use their arms and hands.

Wait, what?  I don't see anything there saying, 'No Arms.'

[Sabelkatten]

Key question there. An AirMech, maybe, should not, necessarily, beat a VTOL, ton for ton. The value of a unit, operationally, can be a difficult thing to quantify under the best of conditions, but, alas, in the case of LAMs, the potentials there make BV-based judgements sketchy.

I've tried to address this in a fanfic: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62129.0

It's so much about potential applications with LAMs that you could concede it in a one-to-one duel with any 'specialized' unit and still want to take it. I mean, lol, it's one reason why, especially in the early days, we found ourselves getting our LAMs disinvited from tabletop games. It was just so easy to poke all the holes in the opfors with a unit that could shift around on the map so quickly and easily.

As an anecdote, I remember one campaign very clearly where my Phoenix Hawk, even after getting saddled with all the baggage that made you want to cry, crazy degenerate technician, difficult piloting roles for aero-mode, poverty of parts, ppl looking at you sideways, etc, etc, I was /still/ able to go on solo nightly hunting trips to bag LCT and SDR scouts that I could literally fly rings around. It's a challenging unit that makes you think outside the box. Comparing BV values of AirMechs and VTOLs, I suspect, may miss the point.

It's true that the LAM is one of the real odd-ducks of the BattleTech IP.

It's like belonging to some kind of weird cult, lol.

The original AirMech rules were just silly...

Preferably (IMO) AirMech mode should be 1) more maneuverable than a regular mech, while 2) being tougher than a VTOL, while 3) still not being more powerful than a regular mech in a fight.

If this can be managed we have a good rule set, if not... :(

[Phicksur]

Wait, what?  I don't see anything there saying, 'No Arms.'

Notes:
•   Designers should remember at this point that PAMs are not allowed arms, and no Arm critical slots exist on the Record Sheet.

[Red Pins]

!

Um.  Well, in my defense, I wrote that the better part of 8-10 years ago, and my only local opponent left while we were still playtesting stuff.  Sorry.

I think it was an attempt to balance the x3 Jump movement; remember, under my rules, you have to save 4 Jump MP for Launch/Land, 4 MP to climb/descend above treetop level plus any intervening elevation changes, and for a PAM with 2/3/18 (the standard 6/9/6 of a Wasp/Stinger/P-Hawk) that leaves only 10 Jump MP.

Without arms, the PAM has to Turn to keep the target in the forward arc, another drain on those 10 remaining MP.  (As I write this, I can't remember if I included a turn mode, forcing you to move straight before turning a single hex facing.  Sorry.)

Thinking about it, those 10 MP are the reason I came up with the 'Nape-of-the-Earth' flight option - most grogs remember that one lazy LAM player, who just blindly counted out the Jump MP and didn't follow the rest of the rules in the book.  They can try it with this, but its like walking on a beach ball while skateboarding.

[Phicksur]

The original AirMech rules were just silly...

Preferably (IMO) AirMech mode should be 1) more maneuverable than a regular mech, while 2) being tougher than a VTOL, while 3) still not being more powerful than a regular mech in a fight.

If this can be managed we have a good rule set, if not... :(

That is why I came up with the StrikeMech. It is what I would like the AirMech to play like. Highly maneuverable, tougher than a VTOL, and able to hold its own with a regular mech without overwhelming them.

That means, same rules applied to LAM, should put the LAM at a slight disadvantage because of the extra weight of conversion equipment.

[Daemion]

The arms of a LAM in ASF mode fold into positions where their weapons fire in the nose arc.  This addresses ASF issue 4.

I've used this as a custom option for an advanced prototype in a campaign.  It makes sense as a general rule.



Secondly, you're already an aero player, from the sounds of it, so you don't mind the two different systems, correct?

How about using the Aerospace thrust and mp mechanic on a BT map for AirMech Mode, instead of straight up jumping? It would be a straight value for value set-up from fighter mode (A hex is a hex, regardless of size for MP expenditure and thrust use).

[Red Pins]

Hmm.  IIRC, its a single fuel point per ground-level map, isn't it?  That seems doable on the face of it, but I never did much aerotech.

[Daemion]

The original AirMech rules were just silly...

Preferably (IMO) AirMech mode should be 1) more maneuverable than a regular mech, while 2) being tougher than a VTOL, while 3) still not being more powerful than a regular mech in a fight.

If this can be managed we have a good rule set, if not... :(

Take away physical attacks. Save something like that for SPAs on a pilot that's been using the mech long enough to know how to override the collision safety protocols.

Then, no more boot to the head moments that a lot of people like to do, especially with the way Total Warfare handles using the modified piloting skill.  One munchy tactic removed. 

And, to prevent perpetual back-stabbing, the thrust/mp system from fighter mode, along with the restrictions on how many hex faces you can turn at a time and how much thrust is required to make each single turn can be a balancing factor there.

[Daemion]

Y'know, I like the idea that the gyro should either grant piloting bonuses, or allow for tighter maneuvering in fighter mode.

Maybe having the gyro reduces the thrust cost required for turning at high velocity?

Or

It grants modifiers making piloting rolls for turning easier, maybe like how a quad gets a piloting bonus while it has four legs.


I'm also keen on the idea that the weight of the conversion equipment should have the jet thrusters that the fighter uses included already.  This means the LAM shouldn't have to allocate tonnage to jumpjets.

Instead thrust allocation should probably be calculated like for a Fighter, which is normally engine and tonnage based, right?

Thrust MP can then be used for a LAM's jump capacity in Mech mode.  However, LAMs still have to allocate space for thruster ports as if they were jumpjets on the critical hit tables, one per Thrust MP.

[idea weenie]

One simple idea is to use the ASF turn radius chart, but with a modification.  Since the ASF turn chart assumes a fully functioning ASF, with properly designed Ailerons, wings, etc, and an AirMech is not, how about treating the AirMech's speed as 2* its actual when looking up turn radius.

So the AirMech can have speed thaanks to its Jumpjets, potentially WIGE flight capability, but a poor turn radius means you know when the AirMech is going to come after you, and which way they are going to move.

[Daemion]

One simple idea is to use the ASF turn radius chart, but with a modification.  Since the ASF turn chart assumes a fully functioning ASF, with properly designed Ailerons, wings, etc, and an AirMech is not, how about treating the AirMech's speed as 2* its actual when looking up turn radius.

So the AirMech can have speed thaanks to its Jumpjets, potentially WIGE flight capability, but a poor turn radius means you know when the AirMech is going to come after you, and which way they are going to move.

That is a thought, although I'd like to point out that the jets that they have, combined with the wings, give an AirMech roughly the same control that you'd find with a fighter. However, the reason they're moving at speeds calculated in 100 foot increments instead of 1/3 of a mile is because of the unaerodynamic portions of the arms and legs.

[Maingunnery]

However, the reason they're moving at speeds calculated in 100 foot increments instead of 1/3 of a mile is because of the unaerodynamic portions of the arms and legs.

If that was the case, then a properly developed LAM (to be properly aerodynamic) wouldn't be subjugated to that.   

[Col Toda]

From my perspective a LAM is a long range insertion special forces tool .  Comparing it to it"s monoform counterparts is counter productive . It is either the very best tool to get the jpb done or should not be there at all . The Long Range Combat Thread shows some of a LAM"s Niche . These square peg in round holes analyses serve no one . It does not need to be as good as its counterparts just good enough to get the job done . The biggest killer to Aerospace fighters and LAM tech in general is 3058 O Bakemono , 3060 Anvil 8M and 3085 Patriat on board Arrow IV w Air Defense Arrow IV ammo . This attacks flying incoming assets the mapboard before it engages with your ground units . So by the late 3070s most everyone thinks more LAM development is an investment in obsolescence . My standard attack force tends to have 9 Arrow IV launchers 3 of which has a ton  ADA ammo in it . Onboard Arrow IV is my heavy weapon of choice.  Sub optimal against the WoB but OK vs everyone else .  Still long range FC targeting computer and precision ammo is nice .  Varible Pulse lasers and iOS SRM aalso offset performance.

[TigerShark]

I don't see any issue with the LAM rules. They're not designed to be extremely good units like they were under the box set rules in the 1980s.
The turn radius rules severely hamper their worth, unless you spend the BV to put a great pilot into the LAM. At which point you're paying excessive BV just so the thing doesn't slam into a mountain while turning. Even -IF- you have a 4/3 or better, you still need to contend with LB-X and Flak ammo (if playing in the Star League era -- MUCH worse if playing in Clan and above).

I think this is a case of wanting too much, like an AD&D 2e player wanting the game to be like Pathfinder.

[Daemion]

I'm sorry, why did you decide to post 'poo-poo' comments in the fan designs and rules section in a post about ideas on improving LAMs, again?

I personally come down to this segment for ideas that are beyond the norm of standard rules, not to find comfort in the 'rules work fine as-is'.

[skiltao]

LAMs aren't intended to be "extremely good," but making them extremely bad is just as ill-fitting; there's a cost to using them which goes beyond BV (force size slots, rules complexity, play time, anticipated "cool factor"), and LAMs do not live up to that cost.

This is less like an AD&D 2e player wanting Pathfinder, and more like when you were petitioning to have Piloting Skill and C3 networks given more accurate BV costs.