Giftake sibkos expected to excel?

[Alan Grant]

I have several stories from the BattleCorps site and I was rereading one of them, "Seeds of Loyalty" by Philip Lee.

Without giving too much away, it is about a Clan Cloud Cobra Star Colonel and his Coyote bondsman circa 2954. The story got incorporated into the fluff on the Pella ASF in TRO: Golden Century. Right after the former Coyote pilot was captured, he is presented to the Star Colonel Samson Izumi, Samson is clearly sizing up the bondsman Tomas Masino and says:

"Your codex says you were bred from a giftake sample from Star Colonel Alejandra Masino, killed in action during a minor territorial dispute here on Homer in 2926," Samson said, letting the idea hang in the air. Giftake sibkos were always expected to excel, even if they came from lesser bloodlines.

The statement is sort of a jab at the new bondsman intended to get a defensive response and reveal more of the bondsman's personality. He's already thinking about how best to integrate the bondsman into the Cobras. What interests me is this idea of giftake sibkos being expected to excel. I can't recall ever seeing that anywhere else before. I'm wondering if that has been presented before, in novels or sourcebooks.

It's an interesting thought to me, because honestly, I've never understood the giftake thing. The Clan has the genetic profile, and presumably genetic samples, of their trueborn warriors. The giftake never seemed to have a point. I long ago assumed that collecting a giftake and taking it to a genetic repository or blood chapel was more like a funeral/memorial ritual and tradition with little to no practical value.

This seems to differ from that. This portrayal of that concept would suggest to the Clans it does have a practical value. Yet it still also has an air of superstition. After all, a genetic sample is just a genetic sample. I feel like what is being implied here is that the DNA collected just after a successful warrior died is somehow superior to that older sample of DNA.

Thoughts on this? Has it ever been presented this way anywhere else when the topic of giftakes has come up?

[AlphaMirage]

I think it fits within the Clans' pseudo-religious/cultish love of genetics and Warrior honor. Perhaps gifttake cadets are pushed harder by their trainers or push themselves further due to the implication that they have the blood of a 'successful' Warrior flowing through their veins, and thus can manage it. Motivation can be a powerful thing and a gifttake cadet could be seen as living the true 'legacy' of their ancestor.

Although now I think I might put that into my fiction now since my Diana Pryde was created from a gifttake by Peri.

[Gaiiten]

IMHO the point is how the Warrior died.
If it was a glorious death while killing scores of enemies and the Clan being victorious against all odd because this warrior`s actions, this would be this warrior`s peak / most excellent performance. The warrior`s giftake is matured at its best.
And so given the Clans view of genetics sibkos bred with this giftake should excel, either.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Epigenetics? Although not well understood, there could be a smidgen of fact in there.

[tassa_kay]

Thoughts on this? Has it ever been presented this way anywhere else when the topic of giftakes has come up?

In fact, it has. WCSB, page 125, asserts that the giftake is considered to be the warrior's best DNA sample and the one most likely to produce improved warriors. So yes, it appears to me to be a mixture of the Clans' quasi-mystical view of genetics and epigenetics.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

I think it fits within the Clans' pseudo-religious/cultish love of genetics and Warrior honor. Perhaps gifttake cadets are pushed harder by their trainers or push themselves further due to the implication that they have the blood of a 'successful' Warrior flowing through their veins, and thus can manage it. Motivation can be a powerful thing and a gifttake cadet could be seen as living the true 'legacy' of their ancestor.

Although now I think I might put that into my fiction now since my Diana Pryde was created from a gifttake by Peri.

Will this be Fan Fiction or a Shrapnel submission ?

[Gorgon]

In fact, it has. WCSB, page 125, asserts that the giftake is considered to be the warrior's best DNA sample and the one most likely to produce improved warriors. So yes, it appears to me to be a mixture of the Clans' quasi-mystical view of genetics and epigenetics.

Interesting, I learned something new today. It feels a bit like the ancient greek notion of a good death - to die at the height of personal triumph. The father of a champion of the Olympian games was said to be blessed by the gods, because he died when he heard of his son's victory.

[AlphaMirage]

Will this be Fan Fiction or a Shrapnel submission ?

It is in fan fiction right now as Hidden Hope, although I haven't really given her enough lines atm.

[Alan Grant]

In fact, it has. WCSB, page 125, asserts that the giftake is considered to be the warrior's best DNA sample and the one most likely to produce improved warriors. So yes, it appears to me to be a mixture of the Clans' quasi-mystical view of genetics and epigenetics.

Oh dang... great catch Tassa! I totally overlooked this. The old Jade Falcon Sourcebook and Invading Clans Sourcebook uses the same definition for giftake. But then this reference seems to be dropped as of WoK at least and later books. Interesting.

I think they should have kept it in later products. For me it adds a lot of additional weight to the concept of a giftake that was lacking beyond ceremonial tradition.

Also, the concept of a giftake sibko is still rather interesting. It just adds another dynamic. I could see the addition of "greater expectations" doing a lot of complex things to a specific warrior's psyche. Some good, some bad.

EDIT: As someone who enjoys thinking about the work of the Bloodname House Leaders, it's also interesting to contemplate how the giftake genetic legacies (does stringing those 3 words together make sense? I'm not sure, geniunely asking) of certain warriors may carry more value than others, when negotiating with other Bloodname House Leaders to plan future sibkos.

[tassa_kay]

It actually has been used that way in at least one very recent product that I was reading: Elements of Honor: Treason. Peter Cobb noted after the Gottfried Amirault/Fulk Lassanerra showdown that Gottfriend's giftake would be used to create future generations of Hell's Horses warriors, once it had been secured along with his remains. I feel like this isn't the only example where it comes up in a novel, either... I just can't recall any other reference offhand. I only remember this one because I just finished a re-read of the novel.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It actually has been used that way in at least one very recent product that I was reading: Elements of Honor: Treason. Peter Cobb noted after the Gottfried Amirault/Fulk Lassanerra showdown that Gottfriend's giftake would be used to create future generations of Hell's Horses warriors, once it had been secured along with his remains. I feel like this isn't the only example where it comes up in a novel, either... I just can't recall any other reference offhand. I only remember this one because I just finished a re-read of the novel.

IIRC, it's pretty common in Clan-centric fiction any time a major character died.  I'm pretty sure there was a line about Zane Nova Cat's giftake in the epilogue of Test of Vengeance.

[Hellraiser]

I'm wondering if that has been presented before, in novels or sourcebooks.

Thoughts on this? Has it ever been presented this way anywhere else when the topic of giftakes has come up?

Tassa beat me to the quote.  Sarna says...

Common belief holds that warriors bred from the giftake sample will produce superior warriors to those bred from an earlier sample that is on file in the Clan's genetic repository.[2]

References
 Field Manual: Crusader Clans, p. 160: Glossary
 Wolf Clan Sourcebook, p. 125: Glossary

I think its less "Expected" to excel than it is, "Best Sample" since it is when they were at their oldest/most seasoned & from active combat, so anything their DNA has "learned" over time is there. 

IIRC There was some issue w/ Carew's bloodline in the Lethal Heritage triology because they found out that the samples used to create his sibko were taken from "the cadet branch" which I can only assume means "From Early Life" samples of later blood named warriors v/s samples taken after they had won their bloodname & performed great deeds.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Basically, the average Clan warrior's understanding of how DNA works is worse than that of the average Facebook post.

[Hellraiser]

Basically, the average Clan warrior's understanding of how DNA works is worse than that of the average Facebook post.

Given what I've read recently about "Epigenetics", which I'm no expert on, just got some info referred to me during a discussion one day, in theory, there could be something to the giftake being different than say the DNA sample of a sibko cadet.
Not exactly the same thing, but, maybe?

[tassa_kay]

The Clans also tore each other apart over a nonexistent “taint” that the Inner Sphere infected them with. For all of their genetic expertise, they’re also complete morons.

[Liam's Ghost]

Look, understanding how the genetics actually work is the scientist's job!

(no way that could go wrong...)

Though I do wonder if ole Nicky, during one of his bouts of brain fever, read himself some Dune and decided Genetic Memory was real or something.

[Alan Grant]

I know you probably at least half meant that as a joke. But you prompted me to go back and look at something.

“Our time is come! We no longer need to fear our own mortality, for we are the immortal warriors
for all time." - Khan Jason Karrige address to Clan Widowmaker. (Source: Op. Klondike page 33 in the section that discusses the creation of the Clan eugenics program, trueborns and bloodnames/bloodlines)

“And blood will be shed—ours and theirs—but
we go into battle knowing that our legacy is assured
thanks to the iron wombs. Each Clan’s bloodlines
will live on even should they fall in the execution
of their duties—eight hundred bloodlines destined
for immortality."

IlKhan Nicholas Kerensky, excerp from his call to arms prior to Klondike. Sidebar on page 91 of Op. Klondike.

Noticing a theme here.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Given what I've read recently about "Epigenetics", which I'm no expert on, just got some info referred to me during a discussion one day, in theory, there could be something to the giftake being different than say the DNA sample of a sibko cadet.
Not exactly the same thing, but, maybe?

While epigenetics is a real phenomenon, its actual effects are very different from what pop culture would have you believe.  Among other thing, the changes aren't inheritable.

[Hellraiser]

  they’re also complete morons.

HAHAHAHA.   LMAO.   Say it ain't so ;)