7.5 Megaton Challenge

[CloaknDagger]

Weird concept, but interesting thoughts. Though I doubt that this approach would give you the upper edge, as proclaimed. ;)

You would try charging straight at the nose?

[sillybrit]

What he said about the one hex thing is true, plus they have +4 to hit aeros, but landed things don't necessarily fall off.

The rules you're looking for are on p120 of the corrected 2nd printing:

"In any turn a unit moves, it must make a Piloting Skill Roll. If it fails, it comes off the hull."
"If the Aerospace unit changes heading or velocity all units on the hull must make a Piloting Skill Roll."
"Any unit that fails a Piloting Skill Roll is removed from the playing field. It has lost its hold on the hull and floats away. It must make a new landing attempt."

However, there's also been another addition that may help the Partisan: a ship may be designed with tracks, to allow tracked vehicles to move around the hull on those tracks. The addition doesn't make clear whether the tracked vehicle are subject to being thrown off or not.

Obviously, they all still suck because of the range issue, which hasn't been changed.

[ABADDON]

And doesn't make any sense from a logical PoV. I mean, why would the same weapon have greatly decreased range, just because it's not mounted on the hull, but a tank? So it would more be for fluff-reasons to keep them then, I guess (Or swap them for 6 ASF and some cargo, which would probably be a more flexible line of defense for the nose).

But those tracks on the hull, how would that work? Like a quirk?


@cloak: No, not "charging". Tactic wouldn't change. Just sit around and throw 570 points of capital damage at you. Then see how you react. If you decide to charge in with a high speed pass or anything, there are those NAC30 more then happy to step up to the challenge. ;)
If you wanted to use that Mass Driver, you would need to be directly facing the strongest arc in terms of weapons and armor... with a +2 for TN. I dunno... don't think the odds would have changed for the better actually. Before, where you also had that 500 something nose, it would have been a matter of luck. Now? Not so much, I guess. Trust me, Mass Drivers suck.

[CloaknDagger]

And doesn't make any sense from a logical PoV. I mean, why would the same weapon have greatly decreased range, just because it's not mounted on the hull, but a tank? So it would more be for fluff-reasons to keep them then, I guess (Or swap them for 6 ASF and some cargo, which would probably be a more flexible line of defense for the nose).

But those tracks on the hull, how would that work? Like a quirk?

The point is to prevent boarding by the enemy. If battlemechs/tanks/BA land on you, they can fight like a normal ground map.

Remember: 1 Space turn = 6 Ground turns

If you aren't there to fight them, they get free shots at your engines and bridge.

@cloak: No, not "charging". Tactic wouldn't change. Just sit around and throw 570 points of capital damage at you. Then see how you react. If you decide to charge in with a high speed pass or anything, there are those NAC30 more then happy to step up to the challenge. ;)

Ideally, it would be against your engines.

If you wanted to use that Mass Driver, you would need to be directly facing the strongest arc in terms of weapons and armor... with a +2 for TN. I dunno... don't think the odds would have changed for the better actually. Before, where you also had that 500 something nose, it would have been a matter of luck. Now? Not so much, I guess. Trust me, Mass Drivers suck.

The +2 sounds bad until you remember the Naval C3. Plus, it's the only weapon bar a capital missile or medium mass driver that can threshold Dreadnoughts.

Plus, don't forget, to get in the front arc, you have to go through the fore left/right unless I just straight close on you. The mass driver might well be the last hit you take.

[ABADDON]

With 570 in the nose anything else but sit (maybe not literally, to avoid the TN bonus for the opponent) and shoot at you would be ******. Naval C³ would be there as well as long as the spotter doesn't get to close to be shut down. Without bracket fire, which Heavy Gauss obviously can't do, there will always be 100% damage, as soon as the bays hit. With the sledgehammer nose, the only tactic is to sit, rain thunder, see if anything's left standing after 1-2 salvos and how that is gonna react (close, roll, turn etc). You talk about "may be very well the last shot the ship takes". There is no reason to act like you implied/predicted.

[CloaknDagger]

With 570 in the nose anything else but sit and shoot at you would be ******. Naval C³ would be there as well as long as the spotter doesn't get to close to be shut down. Without bracket fire, which Heavy Gauss obviously can't do, there will always be 100% damage, as soon as the bays hit. With the sledgehammer nose, the only tactic is to sit, rain thunder, see if anything's left standing after 1-2 salvos and how that is gonna react (close, roll, turn etc). You talk about "may be very well the last shot the ship takes". There is no reason to act like you implied/predicted.

Hm...

You right. So the HMD isn't the best weapon in space combat. I keep getting stuck on the 10 weapons it counts as, and the reduced accuracy. For 100k tons HNGauss and HNPPCs are a much better option.

Oh well. You win this round.

[ABADDON]

And again, concerning the Mass Driver. That thing weighs 100k tons, which equal 7 and something Hevy NGauss, which in return would equal 210 capital damage. That's more than double the damage of a Heavy Mass Driver at much increased accuracy and flexibility.
Your only missing out on thresholding a Leviathan.

As long as you don't wanna kill off whole planets, the Mass Driver is just a shite tool for ship-to-ship combat.

[ABADDON]

Hm...

You right. So the HMD isn't the best weapon in space combat. I keep getting stuck on the 10 weapons it counts as, and the reduced accuracy. For 100k tons HNGauss and HNPPCs are a much better option.

Oh well. You win this round.

Hehe, well... I though about this kind of battleship approach for quite some time. Didn't come up with a better solution as of yet :P

Heavy nose power over extreme range with enough armor to avoid being thresholded by basically anything, still heavy enough armament at the full broadsides to kill most things that dare closing in.

Though one should avoid exposing one's own butt. There isn't too much to shoot back with compared to the rest of the ship.

[CloaknDagger]

Hehe, well... I though about this kind of battleship approach for quite some time. Didn't come up with a better solution as of yet :P

Heavy nose power over extreme range with enough armor to avoid being thresholded by basically anything, still heavy enough armament at the full broadsides to kill most things that dare closing in.

Though one should avoid exposing one's own butt. There isn't too much to shoot back with compared to the rest of the ship.

In that case the only hope it to get a one shot kill.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name:  Dreadnought - W
Tech:              Mixed Tech  /  3067
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 3, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              2,500,000 tons
K-F Drive System:  (Unknown)
Length:            1 meters
Power Plant:       Standard (C)
Safe Thrust:       4
Maximum Thrust:    6
Armor Type:        Lamellor Ferro-carbide
Armament:         
   74 Heavy NPPC(IS)
  603 Laser AMS (C)
   14 Screen Launcher(IS)
    4 Heavy N-Gauss(IS)
    8 NL55(IS)
   24 Large Pulse Laser (C)
    8 NL45(IS)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Dreadnought - W
Mass:              2,500,000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                      600,000.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 4
      Maximum Thrust: 6
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 47)             1,131,250.00
Lithium Fusion Battery                                              25,000.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 9)                                             155.00
Structural Integrity: 100                                          250,000.00
Total Heat Sinks:    15,500 Double                                  14,360.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                  16,728.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:              6,250.00
Fire Control Computers:                                             38,879.00
Food & Water:  (439 days supply)                                     2,390.50
Hyperpulse Generator:                                                   50.00
Armor Type:  Clan Lamellor Ferro-carbide  (5,560 total armor p       5,000.00
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                              1,023
   Fore-Left/Right:                  926/926
   Aft-Left/Right:                   926/926
   Aft:                                 833

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Small Craft (18) with 2 doors                             3,600.00
   Bay 2:  Fighters (18) with 2 doors                                2,700.00
   Bay 3:  Cargo (1) with 2 doors                                    2,730.00

DropShip Capacity:  50 Docking Hardpoints                           50,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 9:  (150-meter diameter)                               900.00
Life Boats:  200 (7 tons each)                                       1,400.00

Crew and Passengers:
    180 Officers (142 minimum)                                       1,800.00
    400 Crew (365 minimum)                                           2,800.00
    260 Gunners (213 minimum)                                        1,820.00
     12 1st Class Passengers                                           120.00
     70 Marines                                                        350.00
     40 Marine Battle Armor Troopers/Elementals                        280.00
    126 Bay Personnel                                                     .00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
2 Laser AMS (C)            Nose        --     --     --     --   24      3.00
1 Screen Launcher(IS)(55 scNose        --     --     --     --   10    590.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(IS)(200 rouNose        60     60     60     60   36 14,100.00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(IS)(200 rouNose        60     60     60     60   36 14,100.00
4 NL55(IS)                 FL/R        22     22     22     22  680  8,800.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
6 Screen Launcher(IS)(120 sL/RBS       --     --     --     --  120  2,880.00
100 Laser AMS (C)          L/RBS       --     --     --     -- 2400    300.00
100 Laser AMS (C)          L/RBS       --     --     --     -- 2400    300.00
100 Laser AMS (C)          L/RBS       --     --     --     -- 2400    300.00
12 Large Pulse Laser (C)   AL/R   12(120)12(120)12(120)     --  240    144.00
4 NL45(IS)                 AL/R        18     18     18     18  560  7,200.00
4 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
2 Heavy NPPC(IS)           Aft         30     30     30     30  450  6,000.00
1 Screen Launcher(IS)(55 scAft         --     --     --     --   10    590.00
1 Laser AMS (C)            Aft         --     --     --     --   12      1.50
1 Lot Spare Parts (1.03%)                                           25,706.00
1 Naval C3                                                          43,689.00
1 Large Naval-Comm Scanner                                             500.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                           Heat: 25,578   2,499,766.00
Tons Left:                                                             234.00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        131,539,545,200 C-Bills
Battle Value:      330,999
Cost per BV:       397,401.64
Weapon Value:      291,221 (Ratio = .88)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 15,012;  MRV = 12,228;  LRV = 9,577;  ERV = 3,791
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 1,652,200
                   (283,127 Structure, 767,525 Life Support, 601,548 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 1,046,580  (63% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      Not applicable



[ABADDON]

No, one shot kill should be impossible, even with a nose like that. As I was stating earlier, when you adapted the sledgehammer nose, it would be an interesting battle, one that would depend a lot on luck for both sides.
Even though, if you bring complements, you would probably win. But that is neglecting the fact that your attempt still weighs 500k more and probably costs more than 10 times under stratOps calculation (not even counting the complements themselves) ;)

[CloaknDagger]

No, one shot kill should be impossible, even with a nose like that. As I was stating earlier, when you adapted the sledgehammer nose, it would be an interesting battle, one that would depend a lot on luck for both sides.
Even though, if you bring complements, you would probably win. But that is neglecting the fact that you attempt still weighs 500k more and probably costs more than 10 times under stratOps calculation (not even counting the complements themselves) ;)

Come to think of it, that's probably why Interstellar Ops is taking so long. They need to overhaul the BT economy. It's just so messed up right now.

[ABADDON]

So, this is my final take.
Swapped the Hull Defense tanks for a squadron of ASF that are supposed to cover the nose arc against hostile ASF, as suggested by sillybrit. Sine the ASF compartment is not intended for attack missions the 444 tons of cargo for them plus the little extra in their cubicles should be sufficient.
Reduced the fuel storage a little, as well as the consumables. I guess a full year is still very much okay instead of 400 days.
Allowed me to bring the "secondary" armament to a maximum with now 90 Piranha launchers.
The only spot left that I would consider "weak" or rather subpar, is the butt. But if this thing has ever something on its tail, something must have gone horribly wrong prior to that.
The accompanying dropship would function as a Naval C³ spotter (aerodyne at ~8.500 tons, heavily armored and very fast, also small craft carrier).
With the two small craft in the warships belly that would make 6 to 8 specialized AMS small craft dedicated to the warships missile defense.
I consider that to be the pinnacle up to the 2 mil tons mark. I wouldn't know how one could still improve upon this without raising the tons and the price tag.

Code: [Select]

                   
Class/Model/Name:  Archon (Mk IV) [Battleship]
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 3122
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 3, Custom design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              2.000.000 tons
K-F Drive System:  (Unknown)
Length:            1.500 meters
Sail Diameter:     1.562 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       3
Maximum Thrust:    5
Armor Type:        Lamellor Ferro-carbide
Armament:         
   25 Heavy N-Gauss
    4 Screen Launcher
   40 NAC/30
   90 Piranha*
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Archon (Mk IV) [Battleship] 
Mass:              2.000.000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                      360.000,00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 3
      Maximum Thrust: 5
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 38)               905.000,00
Lithium Fusion Battery                                              20.000,00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 8)                                             130,00
Structural Integrity: 150                                          300.000,00
Total Heat Sinks:    2.650 Double                                    1.757,00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                  14.535,00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:              5.000,00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   ,00
Food & Water:  (405 days supply)                                     1.568,00
Armor Type:  Lamellor Ferro-carbide  (6.090 total armor pts)         6.000,00
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                              1.111
   Fore-Left/Right:                1.001/1.001
   Aft-Left/Right:                 1.001/1.001
   Aft:                                 975

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Small Craft (2) with 1 door                                 400,00
   Bay 2:  Fighters (6) with 2 doors                                   900,00
   Bay 3:  Cargo (1) with 1 door                                       444,00

DropShip Capacity:  1 Docking Hardpoints                             1.000,00
Grav Decks #1 - 4:  (140-meter diameter)                               400,00
Escape Pods:  140 (7 tons each)                                        980,00

Crew and Passengers:
    110 Officers (106 minimum)                                       1.100,00
    355 Crew (335 minimum)                                           2.485,00
    160 Gunners (159 minimum)                                        1.120,00
    128 Marine Battle Armor Troopers/Elementals                        896,00
     22 Bay Personnel                                                     ,00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Heavy N-Gauss(100 rounds)Nose        60     60     60     60   36 14.050,00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(100 rounds)Nose        60     60     60     60   36 14.050,00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(100 rounds)Nose        60     60     60     60   36 14.050,00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(100 rounds)Nose        60     60     60     60   36 14.050,00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(100 rounds)Nose        60     60     60     60   36 14.050,00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(100 rounds)Nose        60     60     60     60   36 14.050,00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(100 rounds)Nose        60     60     60     60   36 14.050,00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(100 rounds)Nose        60     60     60     60   36 14.050,00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(100 rounds)Nose        60     60     60     60   36 14.050,00
1 Heavy N-Gauss(50 rounds) Nose        30     30     30     30   18  7.025,00
1 Screen Launcher(10 scrns)Nose        --     --     --     --   10    140,00
2 NAC/30(100 rounds)       FL/R        60     60     60     --  400 14.160,00
2 NAC/30(100 rounds)       FL/R        60     60     60     --  400 14.160,00
16 Piranha*(160 msls)      FL/R        48     48     48     --  288  6.400,00
1 Screen Launcher(10 scrns)L/RBS       --     --     --     --   20    280,00
2 NAC/30(100 rounds)       L/RBS       60     60     60     --  400 14.160,00
2 NAC/30(100 rounds)       L/RBS       60     60     60     --  400 14.160,00
2 NAC/30(100 rounds)       L/RBS       60     60     60     --  400 14.160,00
2 NAC/30(100 rounds)       L/RBS       60     60     60     --  400 14.160,00
2 NAC/30(100 rounds)       L/RBS       60     60     60     --  400 14.160,00
2 NAC/30(100 rounds)       L/RBS       60     60     60     --  400 14.160,00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(100 rounds)L/RBS       60     60     60     60   72 28.100,00
5 Piranha*(50 msls)        L/RBS       15     15     15     --   90  2.000,00
2 NAC/30(100 rounds)       AL/R        60     60     60     --  400 14.160,00
2 NAC/30(100 rounds)       AL/R        60     60     60     --  400 14.160,00
16 Piranha*(160 msls)      AL/R        48     48     48     --  288  6.400,00
1 Screen Launcher(10 scrns)Aft         --     --     --     --   10    140,00
2 Heavy N-Gauss(100 rounds)Aft         60     60     60     60   36 14.050,00
16 Piranha*(160 msls)      Aft         48     48     48     --  144  3.200,00
1 Lot Spare Parts (1,00%)                                           20.000,00
1 Naval C³                                                          20.000,00
1 Large NCSS                                                           500,00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                            Heat: 5.300   2.000.000,00
Tons Left:                                                                ,00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        17.187.964.000 C-Bills
Battle Value:      446.203
Cost per BV:       38.520,5
Weapon Value:      304.391 (Ratio = ,68)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 20.350;  MRV = 20.350;  LRV = 16.033;  ERV = 6.253
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 1.347.279
                   (317.704 Structure, 489.250 Life Support, 540.325 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 727.570  (54% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      Not applicable


[truetanker]

ABADDON:

Try replacing a bay of R/L Aft NAC/30's for similar bay of SCL/3's? And maybe apply a bay or two of the same in the Aft as well for more firepower?

Also if you have any tonnge leftover, maybe drop the single HNG bay for a pair of LNG?

Just thoughts...

Also one more thing, can I use canon designs instead of custom for this?

TT

[ABADDON]

Each of your suggested changes would force doubled (because of the NC³) tons for firecontrol computers, where right now there are none.
Also the SCL3s have inferior range compared to the NAC30s. I'm not quite seeing your point, to be honest.

[CloaknDagger]

Also one more thing, can I use canon designs instead of custom for this?

Of course.

But they're mostly terrible.