HOw often do you see Assault Tanks in militias?

[Arkansas Warrior]

Consider he fact that these country bumpkin techs working in militias may not know how to fix fusion engines and lasers, much less lostech like gauss rifles.  That's an established reason in cannon for not using higher tech in militia units. (For example, the Hetzer article mentions that few of the techs who work on Hetzers have the training to "maintain technology as advanced as lasers.")

[Archangel]

Point is, even in the poorest "main sequence" worlds, most of the population can afford such a light tax. Even if it is in the form of one hour of labour picking up trash in the city park one day per year.

You are still missing my point of that the cost of collecting the taxes from the various communities spread across the planet outweighs the value of the "taxes" collected.  Fuel costs, salaries for the tax collectors and their support crew (drivers and security), etc quickly add up.

Heck, it could even be done directly through the banking system, through the sale of lottery tickets or as a surcharge whenever a driver's license is renewed.

A farming community with little to no direct contact is going to worry about

My definition of "dirt poor" is for an average planet in the inner sphere; it has a population of 2.5 billion (Earth's population circa 1950) and has at a minimum a level of technology equivalent to the middle of the 21st century (this is canon fact), with a life expectancy of 89.7 years, which is higher, by a statistically significant margin, that the average life expectancy in the most modern "civilized" countries that exist today.

By your own definition you are talking about average planets not "dirt poor" planets.

Maybe you are thinking about the "mad max" post-apocalyptic world presented in the very earliest sources (and quickly dismissed in later works) or maybe you are thinking about periphery hellholes and starting/failing colonies; these are not average and fall outside the "main sequence" which covers better than 90% of all worlds.

Again, you assume that just because they are dirt-poor (as far as other worlds are concerned), they are low tech barbarians.

This is not the case in canon.

I am talking about the numerous planets on the periphery of the Inner Sphere.   The numerous planets that the Great Houses have spent little to nothing developing a planet-wide infrastructure.  Those planets that have essentially been abandoned by their masters because they have little to nothing to offer the state.  The Outback and Skid Row are characteristic of these worlds. "Education within the Skid Row and Outback is often all but non-existent, and prosperity is regularly measured in how much excess food a family might have to share with others." (HBHD, p92)

[Fireangel]

You are still missing my point of that the cost of collecting the taxes from the various communities spread across the planet outweighs the value of the "taxes" collected.  Fuel costs, salaries for the tax collectors and their support crew (drivers and security), etc quickly add up.

And you are missing my point that collecting this tax is no different than collecting any other tax on the same world, which by default has at a minimum "early-to-mid 21st century technology" in canon.

This means that the tax can be collected electronically; you don't need to send people out to collect coins.

A farming community with little to no direct contact is going to worry about

2.5 billion people is the equivalent population of Earth around 1950. Yes, you can have some relatively isolated communities, but they still have phones (no need to bootstrap up stone-age tech societies; everybody has at a minimum 21st century tech phones) and are registered citizens of that House, paying taxes to the local government and the noble hierarchy of the House government.

By your own definition you are talking about average planets not "dirt poor" planets.

As I have held since the beginning; I'm discussing the average Inner Sphere worlds; main sequence not including the outliers of struggling colonies and such. By the same token, not including the super-high-tech capitals with populations of 17 billion.

Main Sequence.

I am talking about the numerous planets on the periphery of the Inner Sphere.   The numerous planets that the Great Houses have spent little to nothing developing a planet-wide infrastructure.  Those planets that have essentially been abandoned by their masters because they have little to nothing to offer the state.  The Outback and Skid Row are characteristic of these worlds. "Education within the Skid Row and Outback is often all but non-existent, and prosperity is regularly measured in how much excess food a family might have to share with others." (HBHD, p92)

You mean the Outtback region bordering the OA?

They still have education and phone systems. The worlds still have schools and pay taxes. Look at many "third world countries" today that are considered "dirt poor" (I'm not specifying any in particular to avoid Rule #4); provided they are not in the process of bootstrapping themselves up from the stone/bronze age in which they were in the late 19th/early 20th century, there are still phones, power and water available; the upper classes have schools and better technology plus access to superior education and technology from other countries.

Same applies to these worlds; Whatever the actual conditions "on the ground" these are still part of the successor state and thus collect taxes; if the local nobles don't collect taxes, they don't send taxes up the hierarchy. If they don't send taxes up the chain, they get replaced.

Simple: if it is part of a House, it pays taxes. Period. If it pays taxes, it collects taxes. You seem to assume that no taxes of any sort are collected at all.

[Arkansas Warrior]

You seem to think there are not 'Outback' or 'Skid Row' worlds withing Houses, nor worlds without at least the average tech level and population.  But averag is just that.  50% are below average.  There are plenty of stories of Davion Outback worlds where ComStar representatives are seen as demigods, and spacecraft and holograms are consider magic or witchcraft.  To say nothing of the many worlds with demonstrable populations below 2.5 Billion and technology less advanced than 21st Century, which includes any world with and F in technological sophistication on the Universal Socio-Industrial Level Reference Table (just check the House Handbooks for examples of either of the above.)

[Maingunnery]

And you are missing my point that collecting this tax is no different than collecting any other tax on the same world, which by default has at a minimum "early-to-mid 21st century technology" in canon.

This means that the tax can be collected electronically; you don't need to send people out to collect coins.

But what if the high tech planet has groups that can't afford the high-tech or reject high tech from an ideological point?

[SCC]

People generally don't reject working with the banks

[Archangel]

And you are missing my point that collecting this tax is no different than collecting any other tax on the same world, which by default has at a minimum "early-to-mid 21st century technology" in canon.

This means that the tax can be collected electronically; you don't need to send people out to collect coins.

Do you even know what a barter economy is?  A barter economy is an economy that lacks a commonly accepted currency, so all exchanges must be made with goods and services because money does not exist in these economies.  For there to be any money for the state to collect there has to be some money entering these isolated economies which in the Outback and Skid Row is little to none.

Not everybody on these worlds are connected to the limited planetary network.  While most cities will be, most outlying communities have little to no direct contact with the rest of the world especially when they are responsible for setting up most of their own infrastructure.  There is a reason why its called the Outback and Skid Row.

2.5 billion people is the equivalent population of Earth around 1950. Yes, you can have some relatively isolated communities, but they still have phones (no need to bootstrap up stone-age tech societies; everybody has at a minimum 21st century tech phones) and are registered citizens of that House, paying taxes to the local government and the noble hierarchy of the House government.

"Everybody has at a minimum 21st century phones"?  Since when?  Do you have any actual canon material to support your all encompassing claims?  What good is having a phone when there is no network to connect to.  Just look at how much trouble present day cell phone corporations have providing coverage just in the United States let alone around the world.

People are only registered citizens if they bother to register or the government decides they qualify.  In the Capellan Confederation you have to offer the state some service before you can even qualify for citizenship and if you fail you are relegated to the servitor caste and are not considered a citizen.

As I have held since the beginning; I'm discussing the average Inner Sphere worlds; main sequence not including the outliers of struggling colonies and such. By the same token, not including the super-high-tech capitals with populations of 17 billion.

Main Sequence.

Not what you previously stated:

True, but the question was "how often do you see Assault Tanks in militias?" The answer is that even a dirt-poor world can afford to have a lance of them at its most important sites.

They still have education and phone systems. The worlds still have schools and pay taxes. Look at many "third world countries" today that are considered "dirt poor" (I'm not specifying any in particular to avoid Rule #4); provided they are not in the process of bootstrapping themselves up from the stone/bronze age in which they were in the late 19th/early 20th century, there are still phones, power and water available; the upper classes have schools and better technology plus access to superior education and technology from other countries.

Did you even bother to read the canon quote I provided.  You know the one that states: "Education within the Skid Row and Outback is often all but non-existent, and prosperity is regularly measured in how much excess food a family might have to share with others." (HBHD, p92)  In addition, "the Skid Row and Outback worlds typically have few resources to devote to education. Large cities usually have some sort of school, providing a bare primary school education to local schoolchildren (and sometimes even to adult students). Smaller settlements, if lucky, have a single teacher, qualified or not, to teach the community’s children; this is the exception, however, and not the rule. The only education the majority of those who live in these regions usually receive is what a parent can teach among a day filled with work and chores. It’s no surprise, then, that the literacy rate among these people is pathetically low." (HBHD, p155)  After all there was an actual reason why the Federated Suns created the Vagabond schools.

Same applies to these worlds; Whatever the actual conditions "on the ground" these are still part of the successor state and thus collect taxes; if the local nobles don't collect taxes, they don't send taxes up the hierarchy. If they don't send taxes up the chain, they get replaced.

Simple: if it is part of a House, it pays taxes. Period. If it pays taxes, it collects taxes.

When prosperity is measure in how much excess food one has you can't expect there to be any significant amount of money around to be taxed in the first place.  There are plenty of people who don't pay taxes.  The Servitor Caste comprises a significant portion of the Capellan Confederation's total population let they pay nothing in taxes.  Prior to 3052, they didn't even earn any wages, all wages went to their employer/owner.

You seem to assume that no taxes of any sort are collected at all.

I have never stated that.  What I have stated is that the government collects taxes from those it makes sense to collect.  On poorer less developed worlds, such as Outback and Skid Row worlds, they collect taxes from corporations and those individuals that reside in larger, more developed communities in addition to collecting tariffs, sales taxes, etc.

[Archangel]

People generally don't reject working with the banks

After the actions of the banks some people have.   ;)  Unfortunately, banks will frequently reject working with poorer communities.  They are a business after all and are in the business to make money.  They aren't going to open a branch in an area where the cost of running the bank is more than they can make.  Banks frequently close their less prosperous banks so why would they open branches in communities where there is virtually no economy?

[epic]

And.... back to the original topic.

I use very few assault tanks in militia forces in my campaigns.  I see militia forces in BT as constantly being overstretched in their duties, and therefore, being more mobile and small.  Assault tanks within said structure would be exceedingly rare, and reserved for the most important places to defend.  Usually, militia units on poorer worlds only have foot infantry and medium tanks (ICE) in my campaigns, and maybe a few mechs cobbled together.  As the years progress, this gets better, but it doesn't change the overall priority of the militia; to defend entirely too much terrain with too few troops.  Speed and mobility - in vehicles that already have terrain limitations an attacking force of mechs won't face as much - would be the key in trying to deal with a raid, let alone local civil disturbances/insurrection.  An assault tank... isn't known for its speed. 

There are a very few exceptions.  Worlds that are renowned for producing assault tanks, for instance, I would be more likely to give a few more tanks to the militia (and several that are attached to the corporate defence unit).  Also, extremely wealthy or important strategic worlds might have a bit more variety.  However, for me, on average out of a battalion of average militia tanks, maybe only 1 or 2 would be an assault tank.  Possibly none, though if there was a regiment of militia tanks, I could see a specialized lance or two. 

[Archangel]

In our campaigns so far, our militia forces are mostly mediums with a few light vees for recon and some heavy vees for some extra fire power.  That allows them to intercept attackers away from their homes thereby avoiding collateral damage.  Makes sense storywise since there are plenty that were decommissioned as new technology became available as well as there being plenty of spare parts in storage that a House Quartermaster wouldn't mind thinning out in exchange for funds that could go towards new gear (or to line their own pockets).  We reserve our assault vees for garrison units who are assigned to defend the important sites.  After all professional soldiers are needed to take care of those all important duties that those Sunday soldiers can't like looking good in front of the local nobles.  It's a hard life but somebody has to be willing to make those sacrifices for their nation.

[Wrangler]

Two bad there can't be any generic assault tank that militia would typical have since its asssemble is easy for its world civilization.  Aside from the Hover Tank (formerly known as generic hover tank somecases), was there generic non-named tanks that were used in scenario books? I keep thinking there was some un-named vehicles that popped up once in a while.

[Failure16]

Just the ones seen in the earliest scenario books and MechWarrior 1st Edition:  weapons carriers (which where not specifically correct as far as construction goes since they evidently predated those rules), skimmers, heavy transports, jeeps, etc.

Personally, I like to think of such things as APCs, S/LRM Carriers, Scorpion LTs, and Vedettes (to name a few) as generic AFVs; they might have names (in the latter two) but they might look different depending on where they are found and who produced them.

[Fireangel]

Do you even know what a barter economy is?  A barter economy is an economy that lacks a commonly accepted currency, so all exchanges must be made with goods and services because money does not exist in these economies.  For there to be any money for the state to collect there has to be some money entering these isolated economies which in the Outback and Skid Row is little to none.

Actually, I'm quite well acquainted with the barter system. Unfortunately for your argument, the mere fact that these are House Worlds means that there is an established and commonly accepted monetary system in place even if it is not used in day-to-day "street level" transactions.

You also continue to use outliers to prove your point. Looking up information on individual outback worlds, I find that they do have education, wealth and in some cases, significant military presence. Most have been around since at least the 2500's; assuming a (very) modest population growth of 1.2%, a population of one million in 2500 will swell to over a half billion in 3025.

Not everybody on these worlds are connected to the limited planetary network.  While most cities will be, most outlying communities have little to no direct contact with the rest of the world especially when they are responsible for setting up most of their own infrastructure.  There is a reason why its called the Outback and Skid Row.

Even the Amish communities today have at least one phone.

"Everybody has at a minimum 21st century phones"?  Since when?  Do you have any actual canon material to support your all encompassing claims?  What good is having a phone when there is no network to connect to.  Just look at how much trouble present day cell phone corporations have providing coverage just in the United States let alone around the world.

There is, I just can't find it right now (away from books).

"21st century phones" does not automatically imply "celphone technology", especially considering that battletech is the future of the '80's. There are still satellites, short-wave radios and landline communications available. Fiction has video-phones as common.

People are only registered citizens if they bother to register or the government decides they qualify.  In the Capellan Confederation you have to offer the state some service before you can even qualify for citizenship and if you fail you are relegated to the servitor caste and are not considered a citizen.

You don't have to be a "citizen" to be registered with the government. Even the lower "servitor" castes have to work OR get government benefits; this creates an electronic "paper trail" that banks and the government can follow.

Not what you previously stated:

And I still stand by it. Even if we assume (as you contend) that only 10% of the planet has money of any kind and pays taxes (which I don't agree with at all), the average world of 2.5 million will have 250 million people who can pay the "dime tax", yielding 25 million C-bills per year; you can buy one assault tank every few years in addition to your normal militia expenses (using ONLY that 25 million/year as your budget, you can balance salaries, maintenance and support/pensions with equipment purchases); in less than a decade you can field a lance of the things.

Did you even bother to read the canon quote I provided.  You know the one that states: "Education within the Skid Row and Outback is often all but non-existent, and prosperity is regularly measured in how much excess food a family might have to share with others." (HBHD, p92)

Yes, I did. "Often" does not equal "always" and, as I said, looking at the individual outback worlds, the statement you quote seems a bit hyperbolic.

In addition, "the Skid Row and Outback worlds typically have few resources to devote to education. Large cities usually have some sort of school, providing a bare primary school education to local schoolchildren (and sometimes even to adult students).

Notice several things: first, the author has zero idea of how education systems work or just how the population is distributed in either the IS or across a planet (assuming your quote is verbatim): he writes of a single school for a large city to provide "a bare primary school education to local schoolchildren". We are talking about large cities in a world with an average population in the hundreds of millions (if not one or more billion); This is a classic symptom of the disconnect between the "mad max" concept of the setting and the actual hard data put out on the actual worlds.

Let's assume that "large city" equals 100,000 people; a rough estimation of the number of school-age children would be 12-20 thousand. One School for 12,000 students.

The average school in NYC has about 650 students; that one school has the population of over 18 NYC public schools.

Smaller settlements, if lucky, have a single teacher, qualified or not, to teach the community’s children; this is the exception, however, and not the rule. The only education the majority of those who live in these regions usually receive is what a parent can teach among a day filled with work and chores. It’s no surprise, then, that the literacy rate among these people is pathetically low." (HBHD, p155)  After all there was an actual reason why the Federated Suns created the Vagabond schools.

Interesting then how they can still very easily maintain tech level C for a billion or so people. FASAnomics at play.

When prosperity is measure in how much excess food one has you can't expect there to be any significant amount of money around to be taxed in the first place.  There are plenty of people who don't pay taxes.  The Servitor Caste comprises a significant portion of the Capellan Confederation's total population let they pay nothing in taxes.  Prior to 3052, they didn't even earn any wages, all wages went to their employer/owner.

Then their employer/owner assumes the burden of paying their taxes.

In places where these "unregistered" get paid, they still have to buy their food, clothes, fuel, basic tech (radio/tv, phone, walkman); they are already paying taxes even if they are not aware of it; the manufacturers/distributors do pay taxes and pass these costs to the consumer.

I have never stated that.  What I have stated is that the government collects taxes from those it makes sense to collect.  On poorer less developed worlds, such as Outback and Skid Row worlds, they collect taxes from corporations and those individuals that reside in larger, more developed communities in addition to collecting tariffs, sales taxes, etc.

Then the corporations and the individuals that reside in larger, more developed communities carry the burden for the rest. Say only 10% of the population is "taxable"; instead of a dime, they get charged a full c-bill; government still gets a dime per person.

Include the tax in something unavoidable, like the water/phone/power bill, car/license registration, yearly work permit... It is doable...

... except under FASAnomics.

[Matti]

There are plenty of stories of Davion Outback worlds where ComStar representatives are seen as demigods, and spacecraft and holograms are consider magic or witchcraft.

I want read! What are these stories called and where can I find them?

Include the tax in something unavoidable, like the water/phone/power bill, car/license registration, yearly work permit... It is doable...

I am certain that right now on Earth are plenty of places and people who don't pay any of that: no electricity in their houses, no motorized vehicles, and they get water from wells and fountains... Doesn't mean planet couldn't afford buy some assault tanks to defend their industrial centers, main spaceport, and capital city. Though company of Hetzers is more likely (and maybe more sensible) than one platoon of Demolishers...

[Matti]

Two bad there can't be any generic assault tank that militia would typical have since its asssemble is easy for its world civilization.  Aside from the Hover Tank (formerly known as generic hover tank somecases), was there generic non-named tanks that were used in scenario books? I keep thinking there was some un-named vehicles that popped up once in a while.

What comes to original Hovertank, it is illegal design under TechManual construction rules, but is in MUL listing anyway. XTRO Primitives 2 has LTV-4 Hovertank which is legitimized version of it and practically replaces & retcons the original Hovertank. All Successor States have access to it.

Quikscell's LRM & SRM Carriers were replicated by other industries. As such 60 ton tracked missile carriers can be considered generic. Becouse those same vehicles can come with other weapons than missiles (RS3039 Unabridged has AC/2s and lasers), it could be more appropriate call this combat vehicle family as (Heavy) Weapons Carrier.

Then are the APC, Heavy APC, and their armed versions.

By the way, I find it little interesting that Vedette is deemed more appropriate tank for militias (by MANY of YOU) than Scorpion ::)

[edit]
TROs and RS present very small selection of military hardware available, and it is so written in the books. If there aren't enough vehicles you would deem generic, then make your own, like this and that

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  I can confidently say "It depends".

  Are all remote militia units impoverished? That would be like assuming all House units are wealthy and have state of the art equipment.

  Unit TOE often depends on three factors: Budget, availability and doctrine. A doctrine that involves speed and maneuverability wouldn't favor mobile bunkers. A budget that cannot afford to purchase and maintain equipment rules out the high-end toys. If you don't have access to a supplier the question is moot.

[Fireangel]

I am certain that right now on Earth are plenty of places and people who don't pay any of that: no electricity in their houses, no motorized vehicles, and they get water from wells and fountains... Doesn't mean planet couldn't afford buy some assault tanks to defend their industrial centers, main spaceport, and capital city. Though company of Hetzers is more likely (and maybe more sensible) than one platoon of Demolishers...

Most certainly, however, there are places on Earth where just one hundred years ago they were still living in the early bronze age of technology; there are places still on Earth today where entire villages live in a very real stone age era of technology; this is what I mean when I say "communities bootstrapping themselves from the stone age"; they have no technology at all (let's step aside the argument that stone age tech isn't really technology: it is, just not for the purpose of this discussion).

Don't forget that each and every world colonized by humanity had high technology (at least equal to 21st century) and while their level of technology may have lowered somewhat, they can still craft power generators and maintain a local industry. If there are households without power, it's because they choose to live that way; I have no problem visualizing entire "low tech" communities built around a vehicle-grade fusion reactor for their basic power needs.

Remember: here on Earth, even the Amish pay taxes.

Even the absolutely dirt-poorest colony world under the control of one of the Great Houses (not counting failed colony worlds in the Periphery) has radio, TV and cities with at the very, absolute, least a late 19th, early 20th level of technology (tech rating A, for the record)... and offhand, I can't think of a single IS world with a tech rating of A. This bottom-of-the-barrel world still have at least one major city with a spaceport, where the local militia (defaults at level C or D tech) has its headquarters and the local noble has his/her court.

[Colt Ward]

I agree with Mohammed.  Especially when we do not really have canon regular armored formations described outside of those attached to mech commands.  IIRC some of the fluff, during times of armored/infantry expansion some of the planetary forces would be picked for cadre & equipment to be brought online as regulars when it was decided something needed to be attached to mech commands.

So the boundry between regulars and planetary militia (responsible only to the planetary rulers per fuedalism) can be kind of blurry.  Throw on that you have such things as the academy training cadres and Marc/Theatre/Province/whatever militias that are national forces with mostly regulars and it gets more blurred.

I would also buy into local production (except relying on it too much goes against military logic) such as I expect the Leaguers and Cappies faced Brutus Assault Tanks of various flavors when they launched Guerrero since the producer was local (Epsilon Eridani).  Same as I would expect Vedettes & Manticores from New Earth, Hetzers from Indicass, and Ontos & Partisans from Nanking since those are the local canon producers.  But I also would not look at a Demolisher with a serial number from across the Sphere showing up as odd.

To those doubting the Demolisher's deployment everywhere, from the TRO-

The Aldis designers hoped to create a vehicle heavy enough to destroy any 'Mech, which they could sell to the worlds unable to afford 'Mech forces.
     The first line of Demolishers was an amazing success. Many worlds not protected by standing 'Mech armies bought hundreds of Demolishers.

[SCC]

The Aldis designers hoped to create a vehicle heavy enough to destroy any 'Mech, which they could sell to the worlds unable to afford 'Mech forces.
     The first line of Demolishers was an amazing success. Many worlds not protected by standing 'Mech armies bought hundreds of Demolishers.

Remember that 25 million a year Fireangel mentioned? That's enough to but 12 Demolishers with their 2.1 million price tag

[Arkansas Warrior]

I want read! What are these stories called and where can I find them?

The first bit comes from the writeup of the world of Baxley in the old House Davion Sourcebook.  The relevant text can be found at IS Atlas: http://isatlas.teamspam.net/planet-detail.php?planet=2295390

The dropships but is in Handbook House Davion IIRC.  The part about holograms I don't recall, probably one of those two.  It had something to do with an acting troupe putting on a play that included a ghost, the effect for which utilized a holographic projector of some sort.  When the locals saw the 'ghost' they panicked, rioted, ran the theater group of out town, etc.  something like that.


Found it: the anecdote is also in the House Davion Sourcebook, p. 162.  Once I found what world, I found it on IS Atlas as well http://isatlas.teamspam.net/planet-detail.php?planet=2363342

[Nebfer]

I would say that it would depend on the world, many less well off worlds would likely have few Assault class tanks, with only a hand full of fusion powered units (interestingly the Hunter is said to be popular with militias). Where as better off worlds or worlds that have stronger militias would likely have larger numbers of assault tanks with a small but noticeable number of fusion powered tanks. Another thing it would also depend on the time frame...



As for the technology of the worlds that is going on with Fireangel and others are talking about, well I tend to agree with Fireangel, most B-tech worlds seem to be in general fluffed to be reasonably well off, in some ways better off than today.

One thing to note is that A Time of War mentions that the IS world average is around three billion per world (averaged out, though if you look at the current population numbers that have been given it's closer to two billion...).
The tech base is mentioned to be around 22nd century for most worlds, with worlds that are say early 1900s or earlier in tech being the minority.

One thing to note the Terran Alliance was at tech D when they where formed and they had within a decade (or all ready had them when it was formed), Rail guns (mentioned in ERA report 2750), primitive Fusion reactors, permanent moon bases (in addition to a huge space station already existing), and so on (Some weapons in use it seems where the BM-30 Smerch, M270 MLRS, Phalanx CIWS, various laser guided weapons and Sea Wolf Class subs).

[Stormfury]

Even the absolutely dirt-poorest colony world under the control of one of the Great Houses (not counting failed colony worlds in the Periphery) has radio, TV and cities with at the very, absolute, least a late 19th, early 20th level of technology (tech rating A, for the record)... and offhand, I can't think of a single IS world with a tech rating of A. This bottom-of-the-barrel world still have at least one major city with a spaceport, where the local militia (defaults at level C or D tech) has its headquarters and the local noble has his/her court.

The bottleneck is not money, but manufacturing capability.

Factories capable of building combat vehicles are not especially common when you look at the size of the nations they are in. Assault vehicles comprise only a small amount of those built by such plants. End result? No matter how rich or poor a world is, its chances of getting an assault vehicle is low. Front-line forces will get the pick of that crop.

The parent nation also has a reason for wanting to keep such hardware out of the hands of militias; giving them powerful equipment means giving them the potential to decide they want to go their own way and can make recapturing the world slightly more difficult. If the world is vulnerable to raiders or is on a border, a proper front-line command will be stationed there any way.

You might argue that worlds have the monetary resources to construct their own factories for anything they would like to build. FASAnomics or not, however, that capability is going to be tempered by their nation's willingness to allow them access to such advanced hardware, and the problematic nature of BT history, where any world with such facilities was fought over, sacked, or rendered uninhabitable. I can see many ordinary citizens and entire planetary populations responding with "Not In My Backwyard!" when such proposals are made.

[Archangel]

Actually, I'm quite well acquainted with the barter system. Unfortunately for your argument, the mere fact that these are House Worlds means that there is an established and commonly accepted monetary system in place even if it is not used in day-to-day "street level" transactions.

You also continue to use outliers to prove your point. Looking up information on individual outback worlds, I find that they do have education, wealth and in some cases, significant military presence. Most have been around since at least the 2500's; assuming a (very) modest population growth of 1.2%, a population of one million in 2500 will swell to over a half billion in 3025.

You apparently didn't read the first sentence of the "How to Read this Atlas" section where it states that the section reviews many of the Federation's/Confederation's/League's "key worlds".  "Key worlds" as in worlds that are prominent whether because they are important and/or notable for one reason or another.  Of all the worlds listed only one world typifies Outback worlds (Okefenokee) and it actually states that in the first sentence of its summary description. 

Even the Amish communities today have at least one phone.

There is, I just can't find it right now (away from books).

"21st century phones" does not automatically imply "celphone technology", especially considering that battletech is the future of the '80's. There are still satellites, short-wave radios and landline communications available. Fiction has video-phones as common.

Even today there are plenty of areas in the continental North America that do not get either cable internet or cell phone service because the providers don't want to waste the money to set up the infrastructure to provide it (cell phone towers, wiring, etc).  Outback worlds have bare-bones satellite networks that may or may not work and generally do not have the technical abilities to maintain or repair it.  Repairs to their satellite networks (or replacing broken satellites) is likely one of the many items where the Outback/Skid Row are likely to be shortchanged on.

You don't have to be a "citizen" to be registered with the government. Even the lower "servitor" castes have to work OR get government benefits; this creates an electronic "paper trail" that banks and the government can follow.

Up until 3052, servitors paid all their salaries to their owners, they had nothing to tax.  Even after 3052, they only got to keep 7% of their total salaries.

Yes, I did. "Often" does not equal "always" and, as I said, looking at the individual outback worlds, the statement you quote seems a bit hyperbolic.

Notice several things: first, the author has zero idea of how education systems work or just how the population is distributed in either the IS or across a planet (assuming your quote is verbatim): he writes of a single school for a large city to provide "a bare primary school education to local schoolchildren". We are talking about large cities in a world with an average population in the hundreds of millions (if not one or more billion); This is a classic symptom of the disconnect between the "mad max" concept of the setting and the actual hard data put out on the actual worlds.

Let's assume that "large city" equals 100,000 people; a rough estimation of the number of school-age children would be 12-20 thousand. One School for 12,000 students.

You apparently skipped over reading the description of Okefenokee, your "typical" Outback world. "There are only three large cities—Juriya, Setiq, and the world’s capital of Okesten; the great majority of the settlements are situated deep in the jungles and have at most only a few thousand residents. Okefenokee’s local economy is almost non-existent, as are its educational and public welfare systems. Citizens barter with each other for the food and services they need," (HBHD, p96)  Your "actual hard data" on Outback worlds apparently agrees with me.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Lackland, on page 96, is a pretty good example of an Outback world too.  69 million folks, F-F-C-F-B on the standard scales, no exports besides some crops, little education, etc.

[SCC]

Given that the planet is self-sufficient I would take the 3 F's to mean that it doesn't poses any tech worth exporting and has no surplus capacity to export it
If the USIIR Technological Sophistication maps to Tech Rating (the codes for equipment) the way it most obliviously would these people can make steam engines and that's it engine wise, which means they likely don't have refrigeration technology meaning exporting food would be a problem

[Fireangel]

Even today there are plenty of areas in the continental North America that do not get either cable internet or cell phone service because the providers don't want to waste the money to set up the infrastructure to provide it (cell phone towers, wiring, etc). 

However, they do have short-wave radios and (today) satellite phones. Even in remote parts of the world, you will find radios and/or satellite phones.

Outback worlds have bare-bones satellite networks that may or may not work and generally do not have the technical abilities to maintain or repair it.  Repairs to their satellite networks (or replacing broken satellites) is likely one of the many items where the Outback/Skid Row are likely to be shortchanged on.

Quite likely, however, satellites have a minimum tech rating of C and the prevalence of small craft and dropships makes recovery, repair and replacement of communications satellites a relatively simple matter even for dirt-poor House worlds; after all, the nobles of that world need to keep track of their holdings.

Up until 3052, servitors paid all their salaries to their owners, they had nothing to tax.  Even after 3052, they only got to keep 7% of their total salaries.

But they did get salaries. The employer is obligated to turn over the servitor's share of the tax to the Chancellor's tax collection agency.

I pay taxes on my salary before the check ever gets to my hand; my employer retains it and then tells me how much was retained on the check itself. I don't have to handle money in order to pay taxes.

You apparently skipped over reading the description of Okefenokee, your "typical" Outback world. "There are only three large cities—Juriya, Setiq, and the world’s capital of Okesten; the great majority of the settlements are situated deep in the jungles and have at most only a few thousand residents. Okefenokee’s local economy is almost non-existent, as are its educational and public welfare systems. Citizens barter with each other for the food and services they need," (HBHD, p96)  Your "actual hard data" on Outback worlds apparently agrees with me.

You mean the same Okefenokee that in 3025 had a class B Comstar Facility and an economic boom in full swing? The one with 25 million inhabitants and was "...inhabited until recently only by religious zealots living in isolated villages in the planet’s Great Swamp."? (Emphasis mine.)

So you hold up as an example an outlier where isolationist zealots chose to live in a swamp even after an economic boom is bringing in people and technology since before 3025?


I have a reference that Okefenokee has a total population of around 25 million in 3068 (I'm searching for the source). The "dime tax" on this world would be a "whopping" 2.5 million C-bills, which can easily be covered by the oil industry and their employees; the system still works.

You seem to be trying to shoot down the idea that FASAnomics simply don't work by taking what I have repeatedly stated applies to the vast majority of Inner Sphere worlds by using truly exceptional outliers as examples. I know I said "dirt poor" but I also stated a HOUSE-controlled world; This implies that there is a local noble and a House-sponsored "federal government" in place to collect taxes; mostly through electronic means.

Yes, there will always be people on every planet who are unable to pay (you realize that the "dime tax" applies to newborn children too, right?); this means that the "dime tax" which I am basing on total planetary population is not paid individually by each and every individual on the planet: Households are taxed based on the number of people living there; companies/employers might be obligated to withhold 1/100th (or 2/100th to cover their spouses) of a C-bill equivalent per month from their employee's paychecks; schools are obligated to charge 1/10th of a c-bill equivalent per student.

No matter how poor the House world is, it will always have at least one city as a capital, with a spaceport and proper infrastructure, including more often than not, a Comstar HPG facility. All planets have native industries, even if it is Victorian-era ("tech A") lumberyards and farms. It will also have at the very least basic short-wave radios to keep in communication with the capital. Just look at what was done in the real-world Victorian era: telegraphs, rail lines, steam liners, canals... This technology combined with more modern concepts like remote banking, automobiles, advanced machinery (still based on steam technology), and further combined with (community-level) fusion power plants (even if mainly lostech) allow for a surprisingly high sophistication of society and technology that easily allows for collecting taxes.

Again; FASAnomics is the only reason this is not done.