The New Free Worlds League: Thread Title Deadlocked in Committee

[GreekFire]

My question is, what did he do to deserve that reputation?  Everything he did was in a pocket of time in which the FWL was not under attack, and had money pouring in because of the Clan Invasion.  Everything he personally oversaw, like the FW Legionnares and Knights of the Inner Sphere ended up dead or turned against him.

The centralization of power and standardization of the military were arguably some great accomplishments of his rule, and I'd be willing to argue that the League would probably have survived the Jihad (mostly) intact had the "Fake Marik" scandal not happened.

But that didn't happen, so it's a bit of a moot point. Thomas Halas had the right ideas for overall League unity, but was the wrong person for the task.

[False Son]

The centralization of power and standardization of the military were arguably some great accomplishments of his rule, and I'd be willing to argue that the League would probably have survived the Jihad (mostly) intact had the "Fake Marik" scandal not happened.

But that didn't happen, so it's a bit of a moot point. Thomas Halas had the right ideas for overall League unity, but was the wrong person for the task.

My contention is that the national unity angle is a meme perpetuated by FM:FWL.  If Thomas had spent as much attention to policing the Blakists as he did stripping his countrymen of autonomy the League would be intact.

[GreekFire]

My contention is that the national unity angle is a meme perpetuated by FM:FWL.  If Thomas had spent as much attention to policing the Blakists as he did stripping his countrymen of autonomy the League would be intact.

The national unity angle under his rule is certainly questionable, especially with the end result of the Jihad, but many of the actions taken by him, such as the regularization of taxes and the creation of a common market with the League, were most likely extremely beneficial to the FWL as a whole and were certainly long overdue.

However, like you said, it's hard to consider him a top-tier leader for the League when the state collapsed under his rule.
But I do think that if most of his reforms had happened a few Captain-Generals earlier, the League as a whole would have greatly prospered.

[False Son]

I guess my thing is that the FWL is all about "democracy" and internal bickering, regional differences and so on.  Thomas represented the antithiesis of that, to me.  Literally trading your soul for power.  It was sad to see it happen to the Cappies, and worse for the League because they didn't suffer staggering losses in the 4SW that would make such an overhaul necessary.

My other perspective is that Andurien has been right all along.  Janos should have finished off the Confederation.  Thomas was not fit to be Captain-General, nor was Corrine.  The League had gone rotten since Takashi bullied Janos into an alliance with the Liaos.  However, if Dalma Humphries had her way in the repeal of Resolution 288 and Thomas retired peacefully, the infrastructure of a functioning Blakist state would be intact.

[Drewbacca]

I agree with False Son on a lot of points, in particular that they did not finish off the Confederation as soon as the 4th Succession War was over, though that is on Janos. The Alliance was ajoke because Janos did nothing to help the Confederation at all anyway.

As far as the fake Tom, while I myself have faulted him for his failure to police the Blakist, without Comstar there would be no fake Tom to begin with. Given the long history of Mariks in Comstar, we probably should have seen this coming A MILE AWAY.

That said, seriously, no one thought, Jessica who?

[Colt Ward]

You know Jessica is Thomas & Sheryl Halas daughter . . . and she was not quite forcing worlds in- some did yes, but a lot of it was politics & soft power.

[False Son]

Atreus and the four Andurien planets spring to mind.  Atreus is somewhat justified, given the history between the Halas-Hughes clan and the Cameron-Jones.

...I don't recall what prompted the attack on Kwamashu.  It has been a long time since I read when Oriente and Andurien fought one another.  I think there was some raiding during the Jihad. 

[Drewbacca]

You know Jessica is Thomas & Sheryl Halas daughter . . . and she was not quite forcing worlds in- some did yes, but a lot of it was politics & soft power.

No I mean, outside of her grandfather and dead mother, Jessica really had no claim for anything. The fact that her father was a fake should pretty much have buried her political aspirations as far as most in the League were concerned because she was not a true Marik. I think the real Thomas only had one child, if I remember right, Isis.

[GreekFire]

...I don't recall what prompted the attack on Kwamashu.  It has been a long time since I read when Oriente and Andurien fought one another.  I think there was some raiding during the Jihad.

Wasn't it the BattleMech plant there?

The fact that her father was a fake should pretty much have buried her political aspirations as far as most in the League were concerned because she was not a true Marik.

It did, for a while. I seem to remember other leaders in the novels constantly slighting her by choosing to use the "wrong" last name with her. Her marriage to Thaddeus was entirely to legitimize her claim to the Marik name.

But her potential competitors were either dying fast (Anson), marrying into the family (Thaddeus Marik, Michael Cender), had bigger problems to deal with (Fontaine), or had no interest/no ability to create a larger League state (Lester C-J, Ari Humphreys).

[Sartris]

It was a Mech factory yes. The RotS engineered the explosion to trigger a war

[Scotty]

I'm a little bit ??? over here at heaping blame on Thomas Halas for somehow not nipping the Word of Blake problem in the bud when the fact that it was going to be a problem wasn't evident to anyone until the dissolution of the Second Star League.  If it was, the Jihad wouldn't have come out of left field to literally everyone.

[False Son]

I'm a little bit ??? over here at heaping blame on Thomas Halas for somehow not nipping the Word of Blake problem in the bud when the fact that it was going to be a problem wasn't evident to anyone until the dissolution of the Second Star League.  If it was, the Jihad wouldn't have come out of left field to literally everyone.

He knew that the real Thomas Marik was insane, and that he was part of a faction of WoB that was not interested in the peaceful transfer of power envisioned by Blaine.  The fighting on Gibson was the warning sign that Blaine was not in control.  Beyond that, Halas should have been aware of the infiltration by WoB into every aspect of the FWLM and economy.  Then again, his head of SAFE was Paul Marik, so...

[Scotty]

He knew that the real Thomas Marik was insane, and that he was part of a faction of WoB that was not interested in the peaceful transfer of power envisioned by Blaine.

This is not a refutation, but what's the source on this part?  I'm interested in reading up on it more.

[False Son]

This is not a refutation, but what's the source on this part?  I'm interested in reading up on it more.

He tells Paul Marik that during the coup.

"Have you met this 'Master'? In the flesh? Spoken to him face to face? I thought not. If you had, you wouldn't be questioning my motives. Believe me, he doesn't care about the Free Worlds. At first, perhaps, but the last time we communicated it was clear he thought even Myndo Waterly was a bleeding-heart liberal. You know what this is in his eyes? This is Scorpion, writ large. His attempt to outdo the Primus he pretty much regards as a god, Toyama. He's using you."


Additionally, Halas met with the faction heads of WoB when they were first forced to flee to the FWL.  He met with Demona Aziz, and knew she was a kook, part of a kook faction.  He put his trust in William Blane's True Believer faction and recognized him as the defacto head of WoB.  Meanwhile, there were red flags when Trent Arian was replaced with Cameron St. Jamais, the protégé of Demona Aziz.

[Minemech]

I guess my thing is that the FWL is all about "democracy" and internal bickering, regional differences and so on.  Thomas represented the antithiesis of that, to me.  Literally trading your soul for power.  It was sad to see it happen to the Cappies, and worse for the League because they didn't suffer staggering losses in the 4SW that would make such an overhaul necessary.

This was a mess created by both Parliament's past abuse of its authority, and the actions of past Captain-Generals (See Elizabeth Marik). MP Lombard's actions were a clear example of this on Parliament's part, and his actions led to the loss of many systems unnecessarily (Long after amends had been made with Comstar). One of the weaknesses of a Parliamentary democracy is that the parliaments can strongly abuse their authority. In fact, the United States Constitution was drafted with checks placed to prevent the legislature from such abuses. The Free Worlds League primarily protects rights through federalism, and allowing systems self-determination. The Free Worlds League presumes that the Provincial and local governments protect natural rights, though the courts may step in from time to time, as seen in the self-determination decision. The courts are ultimately beneath Parliament, and if it abuses its powers on rights, they would accede. The corrective is election.

My other perspective is that Andurien has been right all along.  Janos should have finished off the Confederation.  Thomas was not fit to be Captain-General, nor was Corrine.  The League had gone rotten since Takashi bullied Janos into an alliance with the Liaos.  However, if Dalma Humphries had her way in the repeal of Resolution 288 and Thomas retired peacefully, the infrastructure of a functioning Blakist state would be intact.

At the time, Janos was in a catch-22. If he allied with the Capcon, he had greater freedom to deploy the FWLM. If he did not ally with it, he stretched both states' lines, making Katrina the beneficiary. Maximilian's civil war had ensured that the 4th went the way it had. As I mentioned in another thread, if you remove the Wolf's Dragoons, you have an entirely different, and more interesting storyline.

[Drewbacca]

Can't find it right now but somewhere I remember reading a post on how the FWL mechs are considered quirky at best. Is this a common belief and if so, why?

[Weirdo]

It's a common fan belief due to the fact that FWL designs aren't often the heavy firepower armored bricks that other nations field. Instead, they have weaknesses, but are built to operate as teams and synergize with each other, so that teammates cover each other's weaknesses and the whole is more powerful that the sum of its parts.

League mechs work best in lance-sized games or larger, but it's still fairly often that people will look at a single mech and judge it by its performance in a duel with a foreign mech of similar mass(a mistake on the level of a land war in Asia). In such circumstances the Marik mech's weaknesses are maximized, and its strengths are minimized.

For example, most people say the Albatross sucks because they look at the weak armor, but they completely ignore its ability to add assault mech firepower to a heavy lance without slowing it down, while many other factions that want to do that with a 95-tonner either slow down the whole lance or run the risk of splitting their force.

Long story short: Quirky doesn't mean Bad, it means you have to do some thinking while using them.

[Colt Ward]

Synergy sums it up . . .

Take the walking billboard, the Yeoman . . . sucks.  OMG, it has NOTHING but LRMs, man if someone gets a Wasp close, that bug mech can slowly kill it.

But yeah, its a walking LRM rack . . . loaded with Semi-G ammo, loaded with Smoke, loaded with Thunders, loaded with NARC . . . and works with a Marauder 9M2 (TAG, or Anvil or Patriot or . . . ) or Orion 1-M (NARC) to get better missile resolution, Wolverine 7M or Griffin 3M (which are sort of the duel exceptions!) for support of the Yeoman, with the Hunchback or Tempest for BFGs.

[Kit deSummersville]

Yo-man.

[Colt Ward]

Always loved that write up . . . but my point was the synergy.

I would gladly face someone as a Leaguer with a Yeoman (either), Patriot (HPPC/LB20X- hey look, TAG & 2 BFGs), Wolverine 7M and Locust 5M.  Patriot on point, Wolverine next in support of the Yeoman who is going for a firing point, and the Locust for flank/backstab duty.  Sprinkle in some BA (Longinus, Phalanx or Ogres) and tanks (Main Gauche IFV, Moltke, or Merkava Mk IX), the force just gets better with the BA & tanks screening your fire support letting the Wolverine range out a bit more.

[Starfury]

I always love the idea that the League has no walking bricks of firepower when they produced three of the heaviest armed and armored Battlemechs in history. True, we don't have 100 ton bricks like the Devastator or the Atlas, but the Stalker, the Awesome and the Battlemaster all say hello.  I also started looking in depth at more of the 3050 and 3055 design choices, and if you look at Marik in 3050, they have most of the best units in that time period, sans one or two mechs like the Quickdraw or the Goliath.  I think FASA gave Marik weaker assault designs in 3055 to make up for it. Even then, the Cerberus, the Albatross and the Grand Titan all received decent to excellent upgrades to make them the walking hulks of Doom some people people expect assault mechs to be.

[Drewbacca]

I don't know why, but I always forget the Cerberus.

[Getz]

I don't know why, but I always forget the Cerberus.

Many do, until you use one against them.  Two gauss rifles is two gauss rifles, irrespective of how sub-optimal the chassis they're mounted on is.

[Sartris]

personally i prefer the 5M. the ability to withstand an extra hit or two in every location (and the removal of a 20 point bomb) is worth the reduced firepower.

[Getz]

personally i prefer the 5M. the ability to withstand an extra hit or two in every location (and the removal of a 20 point bomb) is worth the reduced firepower.

I prefer to use the V3, but the V2 is servicable.  I've never used the 5M.

[Starfury]

Let's also add the highly underrated Longbow to that list, though it's also in production at other StarCorps plants.  Dual LRM-20s with a pair of LRM-5s, plenty of heat sinks, heavy armor, and two medium lasers to boot make the 3/5 moving 3025 variant a threat even in the Dark Age era.  Then kick in all of the other variants, and you can provide enough shade for any number of Mech Spartans to fight in.  Heck, we even made a mediocre Banshee variant, with the 3Mr providing enough firepower so that you can't ignore it.

Or for some great cavalry mechs, to all of the Ostol and Ostroc variants produced during Project Phoenix.  They have everything from a 6/9 energy boat Ostol with TSM to a dual light Gauss model. We also have lots of jump capable Thunderbolts, it's direct fire cousin the Tempest, and the humble Orion. The list goes on and on.  I play Marik for variety and the fact I look stunning in purple. I play Steiner when I want to advance in ranks of assaults and heavies, though with the influence of the Fedrats and the focus on speed, later era Clan Invasion and beyond Steiner has  some amazing light and medium mechs.

[Colt Ward]

I thought the -3Mr was a Canopian refit variant?

[Sartris]

looks that way just based on the MUL availability patterning - but it's on the FWL list - and all six substates in the dark ages so it's common enough to use.

[Colt Ward]

Actually, I was mistaken I was thinking of the -3MC which by fluff (and the C) is from the Canopians.

[Sartris]

oh, i see now. by the 3060s, the -3M was used by MoC and TC. it makes sense that they got the the upgrade kits