Author Topic: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread  (Read 87541 times)

Bedwyr

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Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« on: 22 May 2018, 10:02:49 »
Hi all.

I'm going to open a new thread now that things have cooled off. After some discussion, we think it best to start off with a new one and go from there.

Some links for you:

Old thread: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=60546.0

Unseen art discussion: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61500.0

Forum rules: https://bg.battletech.com/forum-rules/

Govern yourselves accordingly.


Addendum: We still ask that CGL reps including volunteers please stay out of the thread, thanks.
« Last Edit: 22 May 2018, 10:33:56 by Bedwyr »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #1 on: 22 May 2018, 10:21:17 »
Any significant news since the last thread was closed?
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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abou

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #2 on: 22 May 2018, 10:28:57 »
The only bit of new since DKT 124 was an interview at Sarna.net with lawyer Robert Spendlove: http://www.sarna.net/news/harmony-gold-vs-battletech-an-actual-lawyer-weighs-in/

Nothing particularly interesting or new from that interview except that in Spendlove's experience, it is likely that this case will still go to trial. That doesn't mean HG has much of a case, but that is simply how things tend to go.

pheonixstorm

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #3 on: 22 May 2018, 12:13:46 »
Not directly related to the current lawsuit but interesting for the backstory of Robotech and some minor notes on prior lawsuits. I haven't finished it so not sure if it glossed over the original FASA v Harmony or current PGI, HBS, CGL v Harmony case. Just more information that some might find useful overall.

This is a 3 part series written about Robotech as a toy line but also has information of things most of us would have never known about the brand licensing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrIm5lYSdTQ

As far as anything new in the case that would be a no. Nothing new since the dismissal of Does 1-10. Maybe something will pop up Friday. Next possible notices will be June 15th, 22nd, or 29th. Not sure when we could hear something about the letter rogatory.

Sartris

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #4 on: 22 May 2018, 17:44:04 »
so if the case goes to trial, can CGL jump on at that point or do they have to sweat it out

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iamfanboy

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #5 on: 22 May 2018, 18:06:47 »
so if the case goes to trial, can CGL jump on at that point or do they have to sweat it out
Sweat it out - they've already defaulted, and honestly they're less 'sweating' and more 'lions circling the hyena pack's kill, waiting for their turn on the carcass' at that point.

Getz

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #6 on: 22 May 2018, 18:56:10 »
The only bit of new since DKT 124 was an interview at Sarna.net with lawyer Robert Spendlove: http://www.sarna.net/news/harmony-gold-vs-battletech-an-actual-lawyer-weighs-in/

Nothing particularly interesting or new from that interview except that in Spendlove's experience, it is likely that this case will still go to trial. That doesn't mean HG has much of a case, but that is simply how things tend to go.

I've long expected as much, but for the moment we can still dream of a dismissal with prejudice...

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ActionButler

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #7 on: 23 May 2018, 07:26:57 »
Guys, just use the Notify button.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #8 on: 23 May 2018, 09:24:02 »
Ok, guys, elaborating.

Tagging a thread so that it shows up in your new replies is not kosher. I fully understand how convenient that feature is, but tagging clutters the thread with garbage and is an unacceptable workaround to following a thread. Yes, Notify subscribes you to a thread and sends an email. Yes, I understand that this is not a great solution for you all. However, it is the only solution and you're going to have to put up with it by either notifying, actively participating (unless I've barred you from doing so), or simply being diligent about reading the thread. I'm sorry if that isn't an optimal experience, but there's nothing to be done about it.

Please don't post anything more on tagging, alright?
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Men Shen

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #9 on: 23 May 2018, 10:33:47 »
What does catalyst defaulted mean exactly?

glitterboy2098

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #10 on: 23 May 2018, 11:34:59 »
Ok, guys, elaborating.

Tagging a thread so that it shows up in your new replies is not kosher. I fully understand how convenient that feature is, but tagging clutters the thread with garbage and is an unacceptable workaround to following a thread. Yes, Notify subscribes you to a thread and sends an email. Yes, I understand that this is not a great solution for you all. However, it is the only solution and you're going to have to put up with it by either notifying, actively participating (unless I've barred you from doing so), or simply being diligent about reading the thread. I'm sorry if that isn't an optimal experience, but there's nothing to be done about it.

Please don't post anything more on tagging, alright?
for those of us who just use Notify, all the pointless 'tagging' posts just annoy as well..

What does catalyst defaulted mean exactly?
as i understand it, it means that by not having responded to the summons, CGL basically has been locked out of the proceedings. if HG wins the ruling goes against CGL automatically. if PGI wins CGL (in theory) has the abiltiy to petition to have their default lifted and the case against CGL dismissed.

ColBosch

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #11 on: 23 May 2018, 11:47:14 »
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #12 on: 23 May 2018, 11:57:53 »
I've assumed that CGL's strategy in defaulting was to just assume their fortunes would match PGI's and save money on lawyers in the interim.

My fear/worry is that HG may get a pound of flesh out of CGL even if they're completely shut down by PGI... CGL has apparently chosen to let a judge decide their case for them.

pheonixstorm

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #13 on: 23 May 2018, 12:55:14 »
To put it in better terms...

If PGI gets the dismissal for lack of standing CGL should be able to follow along and get out of it.
If it goes to trial and PGI wins as the images look nothing like the original then CGL doesn't really have a leg to stand on.

I'm not sure how long CGL might have to try and get back into the fight but I don't think it could happen once the trial starts.

ColBosch

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #14 on: 23 May 2018, 12:58:08 »
CGL would have to a) show good reason for not responding to the original notice, and b) show that they have a case against the claims. How they would do either or both is a matter for an actual attorney.
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klarg1

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #15 on: 23 May 2018, 13:02:05 »
To put it in better terms...

If PGI gets the dismissal for lack of standing CGL should be able to follow along and get out of it.
If it goes to trial and PGI wins as the images look nothing like the original then CGL doesn't really have a leg to stand on.

I'm not sure how long CGL might have to try and get back into the fight but I don't think it could happen once the trial starts.

It may also bear repeating: CGL has stated that they are aware of their status, and are handling it according to their own (internal) plan. We don't know what sort of legal advice they've gotten, or what that plan is, and won't know, unless it goes into effect through some kind of court filing.

We can speculate on potential consequences, but have no way of knowing (or affecting) what's going on under the covers.

sadlerbw

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #16 on: 23 May 2018, 13:53:42 »
So, if I'm remembering things correctly, there are currently two things the case is waiting to have resolved before moving forward (or not): 1) HG's request for a letter rogatory, and 2) PGI's motion for dismissal. Also, the only defendants left are PGI and IMR/CGL. All other parties, including the un-named Does, have had charges against them dropped.

Since the last thread was locked, I haven't seen any news on either of the un-resolved motions, so at this point we are just waiting for the judge to rule on those motions, or for some of the parties to reach a settlement agreement.

abou

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #17 on: 23 May 2018, 14:05:53 »
I don't know if the judge approved the letter rogatory. One question I have is whether or not the case would wait on the letter. Say the judge approves it, but the courts in Japan never respond: would the trial go ahead on the dates scheduled?

pheonixstorm

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #18 on: 23 May 2018, 14:59:35 »
I don't see why it wouldn't considering how long it might take otherwise and the judge would not want to wait. I believe the trial date was moved to early 2019 so if the letter is granted I think the judge would want to go ahead and start the trial and let it go from there. If it shows up fine, if not whatever. Probably something to ask an actual attorney about though. Looking up legal terms only gets us so far.

...Also, the only defendants left are PGI and IMR/CGL. All other parties, including the un-named Does, have had charges against them dropped.
Not entirely true. For now PGI is the only one left standing. CGL/IMR has an uphill battle to get back into the fight.

Quote
Since the last thread was locked, I haven't seen any news on either of the un-resolved motions, so at this point we are just waiting for the judge to rule on those motions, or for some of the parties to reach a settlement agreement.
Correct, nothing has shown up since May 4th when the judge dismissed Does 1-10


victor_shaw

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #19 on: 23 May 2018, 15:21:52 »
Not entirely true. For now PGI is the only one left standing. CGL/IMR has an uphill battle to get back into the fight.

After taking with my brother who is a lawyer. This is true in a sense. If the case goes to court then yes CGL/IMR has an uphill battle.
If the case is dismissed with prejudice then it will be easy for CGL/IMR show a legitimate excuse and a good defense to the lawsuit. As their will be no lawsuit to defend against.
Seeing that CGL/IMR name is still on the case and if it was dismissed, then the case that they where in default of would no longer exist.
Remember I am not a lawyer and can not provide legal advice.  >:D

PyreLight

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #20 on: 23 May 2018, 15:24:56 »
That Sarna article really dashed my hopes :(

Skyth

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #21 on: 23 May 2018, 15:35:15 »
It's pretty common for judges to give the litigant a lot of leeway to avoid being overturned.  I watched the GW vs Chapterhouse lawsuit pretty closely and was surprised by what was allowed.  I think you might see something similar here though HG has a rights that are a lot more questionable than GW's. 

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #22 on: 23 May 2018, 15:40:02 »
That Sarna article really dashed my hopes :(

take the sarna articles with a huge dash of salt.. because whoever is writing those seems to not fully understand many of the legal issues involved in this case.

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #23 on: 23 May 2018, 16:09:13 »
That Sarna article really dashed my hopes :(
By not having inside knowledge of the case (there is plenty of info not available to the public) any opinions in the article still boil down to a WAG.

ColBosch

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #24 on: 23 May 2018, 16:27:15 »
As a reminder, guys, the veracity of Sarna's articles - nor other sources - is not up for discussion here. We tend to get sidetracked easily in this thread, so let's keep it on topic.

It's pretty common for judges to give the litigant a lot of leeway to avoid being overturned.  I watched the GW vs Chapterhouse lawsuit pretty closely and was surprised by what was allowed.  I think you might see something similar here though HG has a rights that are a lot more questionable than GW's. 

*nods* The US judicial system does not like summary judgments, and will tend to give both sides as much leeway as possible. I am beginning to suspect that, yes, this will go to court to be judged on its merits - one of which is, of course, HG's standing to bring the lawsuit. Even if the judge denies the summary dismissal, PGI is still free to bring up this argument in court.
« Last Edit: 23 May 2018, 20:10:47 by ColBosch »
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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #25 on: 23 May 2018, 19:46:34 »
As a reminder, guys, the veracity of Sarna's articles - nor other sources - is up for discussion here. We tend to get sidetracked easily in this thread, so let's keep it on topic...

I think you meant to type '...is not up for discussion...'

Anyway... thanks for the excellent, focused commentary you've provided on this topic ColBosch. Cheers.

abou

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #26 on: 25 May 2018, 21:11:59 »
Since it has been a long week at work and I don't feel like socializing with anyone, I thought I would go back and check out the video by Lior Leser with his breakdown of the case: https://youtu.be/JY5v7wD8r-s

What bothered me about the Sarna article was the lack of analysis. To be fair, Spendlove does law for a living and going too far into the legal aspects is probably not within his interest. Still, it felt more like the rehash we have all been having for the past several months without the detailed insight of a lawyer. Lior's video does that, however, and it puts things into better perspective. Considering it is a very long and dry 1:45, the TL;DR is as follows:

1. HG freely admits to not having copyrights over the 41, but does their best to obfuscate this in their arguments. PGI is right to be so pointed in their responses to HG.

2. Copyright law is complicated and there is an argument to say that someone cannot use the exact images of the 41, which have been specifically licensed to HG.

3. That explains the change of argument in the 2nd amended complaint from claiming the BattleTech images are derivatives to copies. It could be argued HG has the standing based on that these are copies, but not if these were derivatives. Lior's example would be Captain America toys based on the different movies. If Marvel licensed to one company a toy based on Avengers: Infinity War Captain America, that company then can't sue another company doing a toy based on the comic book Cap. They are two different iterations with each company receiving a specific license. However, if that second company overstepped its bounds and made an Infinity War Cap, then the first company could sue.

4. But clearly none of these BattleTech images are copies. Some may hew closer than others to the originals, but there are a heck of a lot of differences. Which then gets into all the other legal defenses, which may not even be necessary since...

5. It is very, very possible that this case could be dismissed with a summary judgement since HG does not have the copyright and therefore no standing. However, this case is still incredibly complicated (seriously, have any of you tried explaining this to someone not familiar with BattleTech and RoboTech?). Therefore, the judge may decide to let this go to trial.

6. Yet, even if it still goes to trial, HG will have a hard time proving infringement let alone having the standing to bring the case. So the judge can still lets this go to trial AND at the same time decide that HG has no standing.

7. If anything, Team BattleTech's stumbling block is not the legalities of the case, but financial constraints.

So all of that might be a rehash, but it hasn't been repeated in this thread. Also I don't think we talked about Lior Leser's video, which in and of itself was worth sharing. If you watch any of it, maybe check out the last 10 or 15 minutes.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #27 on: 25 May 2018, 21:50:35 »
Good summary, and one well deserved.  And I'll point out that "since then there's been nothing" at all so there's no point right now in further speculation, because...that's all we're at.  Wait and see...
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pheonixstorm

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #28 on: 25 May 2018, 22:58:31 »
And we have roughly three hours until we might find out if there was a ruling by the judge. If anything happened today it would be posted at midnight pacific time.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread
« Reply #29 on: 25 May 2018, 23:08:54 »
It's possible, but I doubt there'll be an update for a while.
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