How to lose friends and destroy relationships

[Charistoph]

So last night I tried a new piece of equipment on a couple builds.  It was nasty enough, I'm putting it on a personal ban list.  I used it on two platforms of two different motive types, and let's just say, it allowed me to control the board in a way that was just too brutal to be considered fun.

Code: [Select]

Isatrep Hover 2

Mass: 20 tons
Movement Type: Hover
Power Plant: 295 XXL
Cruising Speed: 205.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 313.2 kph
Armor: Reflective
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-E
Cost: 11,419,333 C-bills

Type: Isatrep
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: Hover
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 326

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    2
Engine                        295 XXL                 9
Cruising MP: 19
Flank MP: 29
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     2.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor (Reflective)     64                      4

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         20   
     R/L Side               2/2      16/16   
     Rear                    2         12   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
Booby Trap              Body        2.0     
One platform destroyed an Atlas, the other severely maimed a Battlemaster that was in the woods and carried Hardened armor on its torso.  A sniping Malice took it out on the next turn (it was a 3 player match).

Code: [Select]

Isatrep VTOL 2

Mass: 20 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 305 XXL
Cruising Speed: 216 kph
Maximum Speed: 324 kph
Armor: Reflective
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-E
Cost: 14,055,556 C-bills

Type: Isatrep
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 277

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    2
Engine                        305 XXL                10
Cruising MP: 20
Flank MP: 30
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     2.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor (Reflective)     48                      3

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         15   
     R/L Side               2/2      11/11   
     Rear                    2         9     
     Rotor                   2         2     


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
Booby Trap              Body        2.0     
After seeing what the Hovers did, these caused the other player to remain cagey, and only him winning Initiative kept me from using them on his Malice long enough for it to get a kill and "NOPE!" out.  The Malice's Lancemates jumped in to deep water and stayed their for the rest of the game.

They worked about as well as hoped, but a little TOO well.  As in the title, I think I will not be using these again unless I think someone needs to be brought down a peg.

[Lagrange]

Booby traps do look pretty brutal.  You could tone them down a bit by:
(a) using cost (those engines are spendy!)
(b) using the ASF RAM rules for crewed units (a 3-in-36 chance of agreeing with suicide).
(c) noting that drones are shut down by ECM.

[acksed]

Ooh, nasty.

...I have thought about this before. Here's a budget version:

Code: [Select]

Sportsman Loitering Munitions

Mass: 5 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 25 ICE
Cruising Speed: 162 kph
Maximum Speed: 248.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 183,264 C-bills

Type: Sportsman
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 5
Battle Value: 59

Equipment                                Mass
Internal Structure                       0.5
Engine                        25 ICE     1
Cruising MP: 15
Flank MP: 23
Heat Sinks:                   0          0
Control Equipment:                       0.5
Lift Equipment:                          0.5
Power Amplifier:                         0.0
Armor Factor                  16         1

                          Internal   Armor
                          Structure  Value
     Front                   1         6
     R/L Side               1/1       3/3
     Rear                    1         2
     Rotor                   1         2


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage
Booby Trap                 Body        0.5
Drone Operating System     Body        1.0

[Red Pins]

Wait, what?  These resemble a couple of the drones I’m designing for a project.  What was so devastating about them?  Ram attacks or the booby trap?

I designed a 10/15 vehicle with a 7 ton bomb, for instance, is it overpowered?

[Charistoph]

Ooh, nasty.

...I have thought about this before. Here's a budget version:

Code: [Select]

Sportsman Loitering Munitions

Mass: 5 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 25 ICE
Cruising Speed: 162 kph
Maximum Speed: 248.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 183,264 C-bills

Type: Sportsman
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 5
Battle Value: 59

Equipment                                Mass
Internal Structure                       0.5
Engine                        25 ICE     1
Cruising MP: 15
Flank MP: 23
Heat Sinks:                   0          0
Control Equipment:                       0.5
Lift Equipment:                          0.5
Power Amplifier:                         0.0
Armor Factor                  16         1

                          Internal   Armor
                          Structure  Value
     Front                   1         6
     R/L Side               1/1       3/3
     Rear                    1         2
     Rotor                   1         2


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage
Booby Trap                 Body        0.5
Drone Operating System     Body        1.0

VERY budget.  It has less than a 1/10th of the striking power of the ones above.  The Booby Trap's main power is the rating of its Engine (if it has one).  A 25 Engine is barely an HGR.

Still, playing with BV, can allow for a LOT of them.  You'd have to stagger the approach, though, as they can damage each other when they go off, and you can only get 2 can be in a Hex at a time.

My local "Battlemaster" (guy who organizes the weekly meet-up) was thinking about putting up a 5 tonner that moves 37, and carries a 135 in a VTOL.

[acksed]

VERY budget.  It has less than a 1/10th of the striking power of the ones above.  The Booby Trap's main power is the rating of its Engine (if it has one).  A 25 Engine is barely an HGR.

Still, playing with BV, can allow for a LOT of them.  You'd have to stagger the approach, though, as they can damage each other when they go off, and you can only get 2 in a Hex at a time.

That's the thing - the Sportsman is essentially a player-guided Long Tom shell that's trickier to use, but with no pesky moral conundrums about killing a friendly pilot. It can just hover in the background like a normal Ferret VTOL, doing some occasional spotting, then close in, land and pull the pin.

Edit: For something about the same BV that doesn't need to land:

Code: [Select]

Red Card Suicide Tank

Mass: 9 tons
Movement Type: Hover
Power Plant: 60 ICE
Cruising Speed: 118.8 kph
Maximum Speed: 183.6 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 204,140 C-bills

Type: Red Card
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: Hover
Tonnage: 9
Battle Value: 54

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    1
Engine                        60 ICE                  3
Cruising MP: 11
Flank MP: 17
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Control Equipment:                                  0.5
Lift Equipment:                                     1.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  16                      1

                          Internal   Armor
                          Structure  Value
     Front                   1         5
     R/L Side               1/1       4/4
     Rear                    1         3

Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage
Booby Trap                 Body        1.0
Drone Operating System     Body        1.4
60/30/15 damage in a unit this cheap is disgustipatin'.[/Daffy]

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Code: [Select]

Crow (Charcoal)

Mass: 15 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 100 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 140.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 216 kph
Armor: Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
     3 SRM 2 (I-OS)
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3081
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-F-E
Cost: 531,000 C-bills

Type: Crow
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 15
Battle Value: 168

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  1.5
Engine                        100 Fuel Cell           4
Cruising MP: 13
Flank MP: 20
Heat Sinks:                   1                       0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     1.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor (Heavy Ferro)    39                      2

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         15   
     R/L Side               2/2      10/10   
     Rear                    2         2     
     Rotor                   2         2     


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage   
3 SRM 2                   Front        1.5     
Booby Trap                 Body        1.5     
Drone Operating System     Body        2.0     


A cheaper remote bomb version of Crow, that is intended to be escort the manned Crow and lure the enemy fire and rush through the enemy line while give the manned one enough time to retreat from the threat. Most of the expensive weaponry and engine was replaced to have only one use missiles and bomb.

I have pick Crow because its manned version has ECM - therefore it may generates ECCM.

[Lagrange]

Incidentally, the Isatrep VTOL 2 could easily take out the Mantis LAM I've been playing with.  It's more expensive, but 2 Crow (Charcoal) look plausibly adequate as well.

[Lagrange]

I played around with optimizing this strategy, coming up with a potent-yet-cheap suicide squad. 

The basic unit is a 10 ton VTOL with a 100 fuel cell engine.

Code: [Select]

Suicide VTOL

Mass: 10 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 100 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 162 kph
Maximum Speed: 248.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 308,889 C-bills

Type: Suicide VTOL
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 10
Battle Value: 67

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    1
Engine                        100 Fuel Cell           4
Cruising MP: 15
Flank MP: 23
Heat Sinks:                   1                       0
Control Equipment:                                  0.5
Lift Equipment:                                     1.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  16                      1

                          Internal   Armor 
                          Structure  Value 
     Front                   1         6   
     R/L Side               1/1       3/3   
     Rear                    1         2   
     Rotor                   1         2   


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage 
Booby Trap                 Body        1.0   
Drone Operating System     Body        1.5   
The 1 ton of armor should be fine for dealing with the occasional stray AC/2 shot.

One difficulty with this strategy is that drones shut down within an ECM field.  This can be countered with an ECM in ECCM mode.

Code: [Select]

Suicide VTOL ECM

Mass: 15 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 115 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 151.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 226.8 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 750,750 C-bills

Type: Suicide VTOL
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 15
Battle Value: 146

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  1.5
Engine                        115 Fuel Cell           5
Cruising MP: 14
Flank MP: 21
Heat Sinks:                   1                       0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     1.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  16                      1

                          Internal   Armor 
                          Structure  Value 
     Front                   2         6   
     R/L Side               2/2       3/3   
     Rear                    2         2   
     Rotor                   2         2   


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage 
Booby Trap                 Body        1.5   
Drone Operating System     Body        2.0   
ECM Suite                  Body        1.5     
Since it costs more, the bang/buck is about a factor of 2 worse and it's a bit slower, but still exceptionally fast compared to most units.  Deploying several Suicide VTOLs with a Suicide ECM VTOL could ameliorate this.

You also need a control vehicle.  The obvious choice is another VTOL based on the Suicide ECM, something like this:

Code: [Select]

Suicide Lord VTOL

Mass: 15 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 115 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 151.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 226.8 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 338,250 C-bills

Type: Suicide Lord VTOL
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 15
Battle Value: 108

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  1.5
Engine                        115 Fuel Cell           5
Cruising MP: 14
Flank MP: 21
Heat Sinks:                   1                       0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     1.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  24                    1.5

                          Internal   Armor 
                          Structure  Value 
     Front                   2         8   
     R/L Side               2/2       5/5   
     Rear                    2         4   
     Rotor                   2         2   


Weapons
and Ammo                                  Location    Tonnage 
Drone Carrier Control System (5 drones)     Body        4.5   

So, 4 Suicides, a Suicide ECM, and a Suicide Lord pack into 70 tons, can deliver 515 damage to virtually any unit reliably, cost 2.325M, and have a BV of 522.  Alternatively, 5 Suicide ECMs and a Suicide Lord pack into 90 tons, can deliver 575 damage, cost 4.09M, and have a BV of 838.  Overall, it definitely seems overwhelming, and I don't see a good counter. 

Update: changed Suicide ECM and Suicide Lord to 15 tons.

[Hellraiser]

and I don't see a good counter. 

Given they are Hovers & Vtols............. enter a woods hex?

[Daryk]

Or water, as the player mentioned up thread...

[Lagrange]

Given they are Hovers & Vtols............. enter a woods hex?

A mech (2 level of height) in a standard 2 level forest should take half damage from a VTOL booby trap going off at a 3 level height.  If that's 2x 100 point booby traps going off together, you end up with 100 points of damage on the shot from above table.  That's an expected 3.33 5 points hits to the head which is typically bad news.

If the mech drops prone or we are talking about a tracked vehicle damage should halve again, making it potentially survivable.  Still, ceding all open spaces because of the potential for a booby sounds like losing in most situations.

[Syzyx]

As a correction to Lagrange's post. A level is 6 meters, a hex is 30 meters. Damage shouldn't halve unless the VTOL is at 8 levels or more above the ground. Booby traps are just dang nasty critters.

Though still they are quite costly for suicide drones, if one pays any attention to financial and materiel costs. On top of that they also don't tend to allow for quite as much salvage. So for a pickup game, they are the definite way to go if you never want to have anyone to play with again, but for campaign or otherwise 'in universe' scenarios, they really aren't that great an idea.

[Hellraiser]

Most Pick Up / Non-Campaign games I've ever been to use TW rules & canon units so no worries there.

[Red Pins]

I can see I need to read the boobytrap rules rather then just assigning space to it.  But this is really interesting.

[Lagrange]

(FYI, I updated the Suicide Squad to use 15 ton VTOLs for ECM or control.  It seems to make more sense.)

Damage shouldn't halve unless the VTOL is at 8 levels or more above the ground.

This is plausibly correct about what should happen.  The rules for AE explosions discussed in the building section of TW halves damage one level up or down.

Though still they are quite costly for suicide drones, if one pays any attention to financial and materiel costs. On top of that they also don't tend to allow for quite as much salvage.

If one suicide squad takes out 2-3 mechs costing 5M-20M each through shot-from-above damage, I expect you come out well ahead after salvage, repair, and replacement? 

Using them to take out infantry or other cheap units would be a waste, but there are other solutions for those.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Yeah that's why remote controlled self destruct weapons are not so common - beside missiles and torpedos. But, anyway these are cheaper than expensive high tech weapons and are easy to build, so there is some advantage at least. You can't play the game by using those self destruct units as your core units, but anyway adding some panic button solution is not so bad either.

An another way to use such units is adding more roles, although it may make the unit more expensive.

[Charistoph]

As a correction to Lagrange's post. A level is 6 meters, a hex is 30 meters. Damage shouldn't halve unless the VTOL is at 8 levels or more above the ground. Booby traps are just dang nasty critters.

Though still they are quite costly for suicide drones, if one pays any attention to financial and materiel costs. On top of that they also don't tend to allow for quite as much salvage. So for a pickup game, they are the definite way to go if you never want to have anyone to play with again, but for campaign or otherwise 'in universe' scenarios, they really aren't that great an idea.

In a "should" sense, probably, but the rules for artillery say otherwise, considering level as the equivalent of a hex.  The example is a VTOL hovering 1 Level above the devastation does not take full damage of a Tread right below it.

[Lagrange]

There's a flaw in the VTOL based Booby Trap. 

Airborne units that employ a Booby Trap inflict no damage to other units unless another airborne unit is in the same hex on the Low Altitude map (or, if a non-aerospace airborne unit, within 3 hexes and elevations of the exploding Booby Trapped unit).

This is not a rule that makes sense physically, but it does reduce the power level to some extent, since a  VTOL booby trap must land to cause damage to ground units. 

[Hellraiser]

Back to woods & water for the win to avoid cheese :)

[CVB]

Back to woods & water for the win to avoid cheese :)

If you want water with your cheese: Flotation Hull!  ;)

[Red Pins]

You know, I just remembered somebody asking how to take down a super-heavy mech quickly, and I mentioned using a hovercraft to ram a leg.  Somebody else told me that would get me banned from his table, and I thought that was unfair.

Off topic, sorry, just came back to me reading the title.

[Hellraiser]

You know, I just remembered somebody asking how to take down a super-heavy mech quickly, and I mentioned using a hovercraft to ram a leg.  Somebody else told me that would get me banned from his table, and I thought that was unfair.

Using a Drillson to do that I got no problem with.
The Savannah Master Swarm as a viable tactic however no one wants to be at the table with.
I can honestly say that in 35 years of playing this game I've never used more than 3 S.Masters in a game & that 3 was mostly filling out BV & for actual recon of the area.
The idea of bringing in 20 just to abuse the imbalance of the charge rules just screams ban them.
So I can see where some GM might have some PTSD from years ago & saying NO to people even attempting it, lol.

[Lagrange]

So I can see where some GM might have some PTSD from years ago & saying NO to people even attempting it, lol.

Is a charging Savannah Master swarm actually that bad?  They do at most 5/10*20=10 damage on a charge attack, a target can be the subject of at most 1 charge attack, and physical attacks are executed after weapon attacks.  Inflicting at most 10 damage/round with a reasonable chance that the Savannah Master is destroyed before it can actually execute the charge seems underwhelming.

The medium laser of the SMs seems significantly more potent---a swarm can potentially inflict a fair bit of laser damage.   Even with lasers though, I think there are effective countermeasures.  Anything dealing area effect damage is pretty potent against a swarm, for example.

[Red Pins]

Kind of?  I saw a player do that (he was a bit of a jerk) on the swap delta map, but really he shot himself in the foot when he couldn't get enough space to keep his movement modifier high enough while staying in sight of his target.

It was more the hassle, but on another map, they can be really, really annoying.

[Charistoph]

There's a flaw in the VTOL based Booby Trap. 
This is not a rule that makes sense physically, but it does reduce the power level to some extent, since a  VTOL booby trap must land to cause damage to ground units.

What is the flaw?  A VTOL can fly in to the hex of a targetted Battlemech, be at cockpit height, and blow up.

Unless of course (quoting Hellraiser):
"Back to woods & water for the win to avoid cheese :)"

Which is what they did.

Of course, now I'm wondering how powerful a Protomech could be with that, as it doesn't suffer from the terrain problems.

[Hellraiser]

Is a charging Savannah Master swarm actually that bad?  They do at most 5/10*20=10 damage on a charge attack, a target can be the subject of at most 1 charge attack, and physical attacks are executed after weapon attacks.  Inflicting at most 10 damage/round with a reasonable chance that the Savannah Master is destroyed before it can actually execute the charge seems underwhelming.

The medium laser of the SMs seems significantly more potent---a swarm can potentially inflict a fair bit of laser damage.   Even with lasers though, I think there are effective countermeasures.  Anything dealing area effect damage is pretty potent against a swarm, for example.

2 things.

I think your math might be off.   Doesn't BT have a rule of you round at every stage w/ minimum 1 damage?
So your formula above would net 20 damage per charge.
Also if you hit from the side hexes then there isn't even a chance of alternating the legs.  They can all land on the same leg every turn to quickly snap it off.

The other thing w/ the swarm is actually a Per turn over turn issue of stopping a mech from moving.   They can basically pen you in & you can't move.
Enough of them will stop a mech from getting a movement turn of 1 more than 1 hex since you stop when you enter an enemy hex unless its infantry.

And your right, over the long term, the Medium lasers are nasty.
Finally, back in the BV1 days they were barely 1/2 of the current BV2 value so you could fit in a lot more.

[Hellraiser]

What is the flaw?  A VTOL can fly in to the hex of a targetted Battlemech, be at cockpit height, and blow up.

That's just it, based on the rule quote he gave, they don't do any damage to the mech, like, at all.

Quote from: Booby Trap
Airborne units that employ a Booby Trap inflict no damage to other units unless another airborne unit is in the same hex on the Low Altitude map (or, if a non-aerospace airborne unit, within 3 hexes and elevations of the exploding Booby Trapped unit).

If the Vtol is still airborne its saying it can only damage other airborne units.

The mech is fine, it watches the fireworks but suffers no damage................. unless you actually LAND at its feet, hence the Woods & Water which would stop a V-Tol from landing.
So it sounds like those "head shots" were against the rules & should have have happened in the game.

[CVB]

A really expensive rules lawyer could argue that, according to the exact wording, the mech would be damaged by an airborne booby trap, as long as another VTOL unit is within 3 hexes: "no damage to other units unless another" [...] "non-aerospace airborne unit [is] within 3 hexes and elevations of the exploding Booby Trapped unit" (same argument for an AS unit in the same hex of the low altitude map)

So send in a double strike and be done...

Not what the rules meant, probably, but  :D ;D anyway

[Hellraiser]

Yeah, I'm not touching that, its clear they mean you only do damage to other airborne units.