Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!

[hoosierhick]

You've got to love those nuts in the Royal Navy...LCdr. Nigel Williams water skiing behind HMS Brave.

[Wrangler]

French Battleship Jean Bart, the 23,000 ton Courbet-Class which was originally launched in 1911, and commissioned in 1913.

She was armed with 6 12 inch guns in 3 turrets for her main batteries, and 5.4 inchers on her broadsides, with 4.7 mm cannons (1.7 inchers) and torpedoes.

She saw some action in World War I, as she was part of squadron of capital ships used to bombard Austro-Hungarian coastline and assisted in sinking Armored Cruiser.  However she took torpedo from an escaping torpedo boat right in her Wine Room. (yes i was bit taken back they had one, but they are french!  ;D) which took on like 400 tons of water but they managed get back to port.

After the war, she was still fighting in the med with fighting with Ottoman Empire.  I guess they didn't fix the wine room since the crew mutinied in April 1919, tired of consist fighting and became socialist leftist apparently.  I guess wine thing was braking point.

Some years later she was bulked, disarmed turned into an accommodation ship which germans captured intact when they invaded France. Used her for some interesting test with shape charged bombs.  She was sunk in 1944, later scrapped in 1945 after being raised.


This is ship in the 1920s.

[Daryk]

Looks like 4 turrets for the main battery to me...  ???

[Wrangler]

ack i mis-read wiki. I'm tired.  xp

[Sharpnel]

Looks like 4 turrets for the main battery to me...  ???

There are two turrets amidships, port and starboard.

[chanman]

HMS Caledon in 1944. The C and D class(es) of light cruisers were WW1 vintage and fairly small. They were pressed into service through WW2 though, although in different roles. HMS Caledon had all its original armament of 5 single 6" guns replaced with 4" AA guns



HMS Delhi after being refitted in the US. Her 6" guns have been replaced with 5" DP guns


Just to illustrate how much destroyer design had changed between WW1 and WW2 (thanks to the Fubuki class and other changes such as the French and Italian propensity for very large/fast destroyers), the German Type 36A destroyers displace about 70% as much as the C/D cruisers with proportionate armament of similar calibre (5" and 5.9" guns depending on the subclass) and comparable sized crews (roughly 330 for the destroyer to 450 for the cruisers). The HMS Delhi was maybe 10m longer than the Z36A.

Of course, but then, a treaty 'light' cruiser like a Brooklyn or Town or Crown Colony glass were different beasts entirely.

[Wrangler]

Italian Light Cruiser Luigi Cadorna passing though the Greece's Corinth Canal during the World War II.



Talk about tight SQUEEZE...

[Wrangler]

This is an interesting article posted on Ars Technica about Computational power or it's absence of it shaped World War naval battles.  The article goes to Admiral Fisher and his creation of Dreadnought, how much more important of new kind warship, the Battlecruiser. Building more of them than Dreadnought her self.  Using these ships try intercept commerce raiders, using radio to try concentrate the British Empire's efforts.

It's a fascinating article.

HMS Invincible in 1907

[Colt Ward]

. . . using radio to try concentrate the British Empire's efforts.

The invention of the signal flags, in particular the 'numbered' book where a simple flag that represented a number gave specific orders.  Weber's Safehold series covering the development of technology covered a lot of such technology/techniques that were paradigm changing but we really do not even think about any more- its now a given that when going into battle you want the best communication possible to facilitate victory.

And I also found this . . .


Report I was reading after seeing the photo said the RoK ship was broken in two . . . and it seems to have been right down the middle, the above is the stern section being raised.  The report claimed it was sunk by a DPRK torpedo . . . and a additional torpedo was dredged from the seabed that was not from RoK inventory. 

[Dragon Cat]

Ouch that's a lot of damage

A ship in better condition on operation in the North Sea the HMS Sutherland

[Wrangler]

Have they identified which kind of torpedo was found?

[Sharpnel]

This incident was a decade ago today, if this is the Cheonan Sinking. If the type of torpedo is probably classified by TPTB in the RoK.

[Colt Ward]

Actual report cited a type of torpedo known to be in the DPRK inventory, but there was some controversy about it that I suspect gets into Korean politics.  With the description of how the damage occurred, the hull snapping in what could be described as a 'textbook' torpedo strike . . . well Occam's Razor and all . . . I buy the torpedo strike story.

[Wrangler]

They still using the Pohang class Corvette, though does spell out how vulnerable ship are today to torpedo strikes.  Predreadnoughts used to have torpedo nets try catch them before hitting the hull, but that didn't work so well.  The ROKS Cheonan wasn't even hit directly by the torpedo. It was concluded the ship was damaged from shockwave of the torpedo's detonation which was they believe was 7 meters away from ship's hull.


Salvage remains of the ship.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, some of the photos actually show under the tarp where the two pieces separated.  Original report mentioned a jet per the article, but basically it was the support/pressure differences where for a moment the hull was suspended above empty space rather than supported by the ocean.  Keels are not built to support that so . . .

[Daryk]

That's exactly how modern heavy weight torpedoes operate (evacuation of the space beneath the keel).  It's extremely deadly to surface ships.

[chanman]

They still using the Pohang class Corvette, though does spell out how vulnerable ship are today to torpedo strikes.  Predreadnoughts used to have torpedo nets try catch them before hitting the hull, but that didn't work so well.  The ROKS Cheonan wasn't even hit directly by the torpedo. It was concluded the ship was damaged from shockwave of the torpedo's detonation which was they believe was 7 meters away from ship's hull.


Salvage remains of the ship.

As Daryk said, that's by design, and the Pohangs are small ships.

Even if it doesn't sink the ship, a broken keel likely means a total loss. As compared to a hole in the hull that can be repaired.

[Nightlord01]

That's exactly how modern heavy weight torpedoes operate (evacuation of the space beneath the keel).  It's extremely deadly to surface ships.

Modern torpedoes of all varieties work through the explosion/implosion effects. In order to generate this, they need to explode around 30 metres under the ship, allowing the pressure wave to build a significant space under the ship for the implosion to drag the ship in.

The explosion breaks the back of the ship, compresses the decks and frequently will tear the ship in half as the hull collapses under strain without it's main structural member, the implosion will drag the ship in, bending it and finishing sheering it in half if it's not already.

Buouyancy will generally keep the ship afloat, but this is for a variable length of time based on variables I don't have time to go into.

[Daryk]

I thought some lightweight torpedoes still used shaped charge warheads?  ???

[Nightlord01]

I thought some lightweight torpedoes still used shaped charge warheads?  ???

Old ones, certainly, some of the modern ones like the supersonic screamer the Soviets and Chinese developed, yes, but most LWTs are bulk charge overpressure. Shaped charges aren't very effective underwater and require impact with the target to do much in the way of anything.

[chanman]

I thought some lightweight torpedoes still used shaped charge warheads?  ???

Antibsubmarine torpedoes do in order to crack those tough pressure hulls. They don't have much of choice considering the small warhead size.

[Daryk]

Those are the ones I was thinking of...

[Luciora]

Off topic muse, but I wonder what the overall damage toll was on marine life during and post World War 2.  It had to have made an impact, sve the ocean is only so big.

Subs especially with the sonar pulses had to have disrupted whales quite frequently in the more safer zones of non commerce perhaps.

[JadeHellbringer]

Guys, while the Cheonan incident makes for very good reading, that one probably is best left alone here- it's very hard to separate the politics from the incident itself, and Rule 4 applies here. We've skated up to the edge a couple of times, but best not to push further.

Thanks!

[Nightlord01]

Antibsubmarine torpedoes do in order to crack those tough pressure hulls. They don't have much of choice considering the small warhead size.

Looking at more recent weapons, it appears you are correct. We moved away from shaped charges for years, wonder why the Mk50 and MU90 went back. Not a wise move IMO.

The Munroe effect collapses very quickly in water, previous experiments showed that it couldn't crack a .5 in steel plate under 10 m. Interesting, looks like I have some ASW reading to catch up on.

[Sabelkatten]

I thought they used a HESH-type warhead?

[Nightlord01]

I thought they used a HESH-type warhead?

Unlikely, although I can't rule it out. I do know they are proximity fuzed, and a HESH warhead would only really have an effect if you actually impacted the target. Never seen a torpedo with a squash head, and I've manhandled a few in my time, back breaking labour.

Not that LWTs don't necessarily hit, I saw an old Oberon Class heading into Sydney harbour with a Mk46 hanging out of the side of their sail, must have scared the crap out of the crew when that hit. Class photo attached, can't find a pic of the actual event.

Edit to correct class name.

[Colt Ward]

Off topic muse, but I wonder what the overall damage toll was on marine life during and post World War 2.  It had to have made an impact, sve the ocean is only so big.

Subs especially with the sonar pulses had to have disrupted whales quite frequently in the more safer zones of non commerce perhaps.

Subs were not using active sonar to guide weapons, but the surface ships were . . . deep ocean is not going to be impacted much IMO but coastal (Plata delta) and archipelago (Guadacanal) would be the impacted zones just because of traffic and pressure wave damage.

[Luciora]

I just remember reading stories of aquatic life somehow being involved, like a ship being torpedoed and a whale or squid caught up in the explosion perhaps, also the many stories sailors would tell of seeing odd things while on duty.  Also the sub that surfaced and ended up bringing something up with them on the bow.

Subs were not using active sonar to guide weapons, but the surface ships were . . . deep ocean is not going to be impacted much IMO but coastal (Plata delta) and archipelago (Guadacanal) would be the impacted zones just because of traffic and pressure wave damage.

[chanman]

Looking at more recent weapons, it appears you are correct. We moved away from shaped charges for years, wonder why the Mk50 and MU90 went back. Not a wise move IMO.

The Munroe effect collapses very quickly in water, previous experiments showed that it couldn't crack a .5 in steel plate under 10 m. Interesting, looks like I have some ASW reading to catch up on.

Different roles. Torpedoes are a big part of a sub's anti-ship arsenal. They're stealthier and can be more effective - I'm not sure what depth they can launch Harpoons from, and I suspect they can't actually make use of a conventional AShM's standoff range. Harpoons have active terminal guidance, but they still need to be directed to the right location initially.

Surface ships and aircraft have the ability to see surface targets from further away and use standoff weapons, and just generally have more options for anti-surface weapons, so their torpedoes are optimized for hunting subs. A surface ship's anti-sub weapons these days are lightweight torpedoes, lightweight torpedoes on a helicopter, or lightweight torpedoes delivered via missile (ASROC and similar devices)