Author Topic: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison  (Read 15718 times)

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #30 on: 05 September 2014, 19:01:52 »
There's a Marauder class DropShip? I'm behind the times.  Which book is it in?

Unfortunately, there isn't. But there SHOULD BE.

Or Super-Heavy BattleMech version for kicks right?  8)

A 150-ton, 2/3 version would be able to use the same engine, right?

And, yes, with an XL engine, a 25-ton, 12/18 version becomes somewhat feasible.

Yup.

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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #31 on: 05 September 2014, 20:55:33 »
Unfortunately, there isn't. But there SHOULD BE.

Yup.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #32 on: 05 September 2014, 23:19:26 »
I pictured the Seleucus as a marauding dropship.

As sillybrit says, I would rather use my LRMs and 2 & 5 class ACs on BA, again as they dismount or if I can catch them in the open to weaken any squad.  I am not talking about killing off a squad, just taking out one or two suits to basically make it combat ineffective.  Hitting it from a distance or dropping arty on BA is a good way to make sure YOU are not taking damage.  In a combined arms battlefield, lighter ACs and LRMs are more likely to be thrown in the direction of BA on the off-chance they hit while those Med Lasers are usually reserved for something I am trying to punch out.  I generally do not want my mechs getting in ML/ISMPL range of battle armor unless they have already been weakened by that long range fire.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #33 on: 06 September 2014, 00:07:00 »
Hm, this article has reminded me that no canon design, either heavy or assault, has tried to put an insanely inefficient HML on the table... }:)

That's because it's a disgusting weapon to try to shove inside a battlesuit chassis.  :P It's so damn heavy that you sacrifice everything else and it's not much better when using a DWP. There are some existing suits that can act as a template, but I'd still rather go the whole hog and mount twin ERMPLs.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #34 on: 06 September 2014, 00:37:19 »
I know when we started getting the Proto weapons and Heavy lasers some of the Clan players had talked about Elementals using the Small Heavy . . . did we ever get that?  I mean going one step further, the Improved Small Heavy could be . . . mean.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #35 on: 06 September 2014, 07:58:20 »
You know, come to think of it, I don't think I've seen a Heavy Small Laser on a Battle Armor.  Lord that thing must eat a lot of juice to fire, if they had put them on them there properly not a lot shots on them.  With us being in the late Dark Age, I'd hope they be using the Improved version, that +1 to hit is bad when you may not last long in a fight with a lot of anti-Battle Armor style vehicles/mechs looming around.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #36 on: 06 September 2014, 11:37:14 »
I don't see IHLs listed in the BA construction data chart in TacOps. That might be why we don't see them in canon.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #37 on: 06 September 2014, 13:31:01 »
well written! In my experience with the Ogre, (having used one to chase off a Hellstar) The extra movement point (Even if its 2) really helps get behind cover, it can mean the difference between being caught in the open or hiding behind a little hill. Thanks to the ammo i'm not as shy about firing and having 10 SRM's fly at you isn't exactly the best day ever.

 Its not the greatest suit ever told, but it holds a niche in my heart, as I favor clan BA that says a lot.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #38 on: 06 September 2014, 14:13:54 »
sillybrit, I'm being backed up by Pa Weasley here. He tells me in chat that "sillybrit tooooootally undervalues reflective armor." and goes on to back up that opinion by stating "Why do I think that? Because ... reasons."

See? So I'm totally right. Right? 8)
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #39 on: 06 September 2014, 14:27:26 »
However, it's noteworthy that the Thunderbird (Upgrade) uses reflective, and it should always been remembered that the Thunderbird is a failed attempt to match the Elemental, and I'm sure if I repeat this claim for another 20 or 30 posts that we could all come to see that the stench of failure will cling to reflective too. Plus the Thunderbird is ugly.

Pa Weasley

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #40 on: 06 September 2014, 14:45:16 »
Ha, is that the best you've got against the Thunderbird? That only stings as bad as a girl you're attracted to saying that she likes you but just as a friend.

But I fear we've strayed from the topic at hand, as would my comments in defense of the Thunderbird. I will say that reflective is valuable addition to the armor stable. Especially on suits that can actually generate some TMMs protecting against the (likely pulse) lasers that would be the most common weapon used against them.

*Edit*
And the Taranis is totally over-rated. Like reactive armor.  ::)
*Edit*
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« Last Edit: 06 September 2014, 15:11:02 by Pa Weasley »

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #41 on: 06 September 2014, 15:26:59 »
But I fear we've strayed from the topic at hand,

Pa Weasley is a scholar and a gentleman here, but his Edit is just part of a three-way chat that apparently used me as a messenger. Behold what y'all are usually spared:

Quote from: Pa Madness and a truly sillybrit
"Plus the Thunderbird is ugly."
"Ha, is that the best you've got against the Thunderbird? That only stings as bad as a girl you're attracted to saying that she likes you but just as a friend."
"So about the same level of firepower as a Thunderbird then."
Pa Weasley asks me for a list of sillybrit designs. Then:
"And the Taranis is totally over-rated. Like reactive armor.  ::)"
"It's true, it's a slow, weakly armored fail machine that's only benefit is it can do the cool Predator thing."
"You mean it makes that clicky noise? I didn't even know that."
"Yeah, the Techs have never been able to pin that down, mostly because the troopers like it and keep ripping their spines out if they try."

Ahem, anyways. Heavy Battle Armor. Yup.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #42 on: 06 September 2014, 15:37:22 »
Now the review of the looks (my personal opinion):

Shen Long - It looks fast, while not looking too light. I especially like the ball joint look of the turret.

Zou - Nice obvious gun, it also has strong DC styling, so it should look good with 3145 DC Mechs.

Ogre - Its legs look hilariously short compared to its arms. The armor looks strong, but the poor visibility of the SRMs prevents it from making it look like a dangerous suit.

Cuchulainn - It looks like a pretty solid suit and the DWP looks highly impressive, I hope that it gets sculpted soon (DWP on a separate sprue please).

Marauder - The marauder references are strong, its looks even suggest a higher level of firepower and armor then its true stats. Sadly it lacks any visibility of its magnetic clamps.

Taranis - This is the worst looking suit in this selection. The arms and head are a poor match with the rest of the body, they looks like those have been stolen from a lighter BA.

Black Wolf - Looks like a lighter IS suit, but everything is in proper ratio.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #43 on: 06 September 2014, 16:29:37 »
Re the Marauder's mag clamps, I believe the rectangular features on the front of the knees are clamps, mimicking those seen on the Fa Shih. What might be the edge of another clamp can be seen under the left forearm, and there might be another at the front of the torso. I assume when it climbs onto a Mech, it presses its knees and forearms onto the Mech, and then clings on for dear life, with the trooper hoping that the magnets work and cursing the lack of a manipulator.

Sadly, I very much agree regarding the Taranis. It's extremely rare for me not to like Plog's art, and this is one of those cases. Given my natural attachment to the suit, it's even more painful to see.

Maingunnery

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #44 on: 06 September 2014, 17:00:33 »


If we get a Taranis mini, it can be saved with a bit of work:
- File away the head to become a visor
- Remove the arms and only mount the guns (micro Imp/Urby look) 
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Colt Ward

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #45 on: 06 September 2014, 20:11:02 »
I don't see IHLs listed in the BA construction data chart in TacOps. That might be why we don't see them in canon.

Yeah, but when does that chart effectively work?  It could be after IHLs are available such as in 3145.
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False Son

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #46 on: 06 September 2014, 21:20:40 »
However, it's noteworthy that the Thunderbird (Upgrade) uses reflective, and it should always been remembered that the Thunderbird is a failed attempt to match the Elemental, and I'm sure if I repeat this claim for another 20 or 30 posts that we could all come to see that the stench of failure will cling to reflective too. Plus the Thunderbird is ugly.

I assume you are being glib.  The Thunderbird will not by definition match the Elemental because it is a heavy BA trying to imitate a fantastic jump medium.  But you knew that...

Reflective is still awesome.

Yeah, but when does that chart effectively work?  It could be after IHLs are available such as in 3145.

Improved Heavy Lasers are detailed in TacOps where it does not include battle armor use.  My guess is that they aren't yet legal.
« Last Edit: 06 September 2014, 21:22:13 by False Son »
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #47 on: 06 September 2014, 22:25:31 »
I like the Fenrir II as my Lyran battle... oh, heavy, right, sorry.

Don't underestimate the effectiveness of the Shen Long's.  Granted it was the optional burst fire rules for MG's, but dear goodness did four points of them mangle my machines.  I made him roll all of them as punishment even after the 'mech was long dead just to see if I could detonate and take some of those devils with me.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #48 on: 06 September 2014, 22:35:05 »
I assume you are being glib.  The Thunderbird will not by definition match the Elemental because it is a heavy BA trying to imitate a fantastic jump medium.  But you knew that...

It's an ongoing joke where I like to taunt the Thunderbird, knowing full well how much Pa loves it. Of course, it's all jymset's fault - again! - because he deliberately designed the Bangturkey to fall short of the Elemental - as Pa knows well deep down in the darkest corners of his psyche where he weeps with bitter lamentation over the truth. Unfortunately for all that is right and just in the universe, the Rumbleduck is moderately acceptable as a heavy trooper, especially once the LB-X arrived, even as it fails horribly at its originally intended medium role.

It would have been possible to equal or exceed every feature of the Elemental, at the cost of the Anti-Mech ability of course, but I think that jymset secretly wanted to torture Pa with what might have been. He says it's because he wanted to leave the Elemental the uncontested champion, but just look for proof of his evulness in what he made me do with the Fusilier! Ev-ul, I tell you!


Maingunnery

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #49 on: 07 September 2014, 03:53:41 »
Improved Heavy Lasers are detailed in TacOps where it does not include battle armor use.  My guess is that they aren't yet legal.
I guess the same thing is true about chemical lasers.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #50 on: 07 September 2014, 08:46:19 »
I'm starting to get the feeling that BTs BA designers have a lot of fun not doing their Job.  ;D
That said, is there any point in trying to fit an HML over two mediums?
Crits, maybe?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #51 on: 07 September 2014, 10:45:23 »
Ogre - Its legs look hilariously short compared to its arms. The armor looks strong, but the poor visibility of the SRMs prevents it from making it look like a dangerous suit.

Between this and the stats, I wonder if that's no the hidden point of the suit. Not built to look scary or have a massive weapons load that knocks someone down NOW, and scares the crap out of everyone else for the rest of the fight, but to be the Old Reliable that fades into the background of the fight. It's not flashy, and the firepower it delivers won't kill anyone by itself, but between the solid armor sheaf and the deep ammo bin, it will always be there. Kinda like BA-scale fire support for other suits that are built to get in close and brawl.
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sillybrit

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #52 on: 07 September 2014, 18:32:00 »
I'm starting to get the feeling that BTs BA designers have a lot of fun not doing their Job.  ;D

Maybe  :)

Quote
That said, is there any point in trying to fit an HML over two mediums?
Crits, maybe?

Getting to do 10 points of damage with a single hit is always nice, but as long as you have the 2 extra slot space and the required tech access, then there's not really any reason to chose an HML over 2 MLs. The latter match the range and total damage, and are more accurate. How the extra crit possibility balances against the greater damage concentration is a matter of taste.

That leaves flavor as the last decider, and - depending upon your POV - that can often be the dominant factor.
« Last Edit: 08 September 2014, 07:49:49 by sillybrit »

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #53 on: 08 September 2014, 08:14:11 »
So very true. Particularly when he speaks about all things Clan, when his lips move, we should listen,
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After reading the Cucoochu BAotW I spent the afternoon bum rushing it with Ironholds and Support Golems.  Speed, or lack there of kills. It puts that fearsome suit into perspective. Think what an infernoey Ogre could do.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #54 on: 08 September 2014, 09:47:46 »
Ah, Support Golems, how I love thee. Time after time I see people somehow overlook or even discount them, because it "just" has a missile launcher for its heavy armament.

It's an ASRM6. With six shots. That's 180 missiles per Point. That's more lethal than a shark with a fricking laser on its head!

And all in a 18 point fire resistant shell that moves 2 MP.


What I found with Ogres vs Cuchulainns (or Ogres vs any other non-fire resistant suit for that matter) is that it all depends upon when you kill that first Ogre. If the Clanners can use their range advantage, then they have a chance to get a kill before the Ogres get to shoot. Even once the Ogres starts shooting, there's still the issue of regular-skilled troopers needing 11+ at long, so really the IS suit needs to get to medium. All that gives the Cuchulainns the time to get that all important kill.

Assuming average Cluster Hit Table rolls, then worst case, the Cuchulainns will get that first kill in the third salvo that hits, and best case it will take them one salvo; either way, all the Ogres will be dead after the forth salvo hits if the Cuchulainns take no more than one loss. Depending upon terrain and whether there's freedom to maneuver, they could get up to five turns of unanswered fire, with an additional three turns where the Ogres are at long. If the Cuchulainns are fixed in place, then it's two turns of unanswered fire and two with the Ogres at long range, assuming the Ogres play smart.

All this assumes that the Ogres don't suffer losses due to their Infernos exploding after a hit. Remember kids: it can be unsafe to play with Infernos unless you're in a fire-resistant suit.

If the Ogres are a suit down before they start achieving hits, then it's almost certainly game over for them as they won't have the numbers to hit with three Infernos per Turn unless they get very lucky on the Cluster Hits Table. You can shoot a squad or Point of battlesuits with one or two Infernos per Turn all day and you'll do nothing. You must have at least three hits to actually start killing anything. Obviously, once two Ogres are down, then they're better off retreating as they then have zero chance of killing a Cuchulainn.

On the flip side, due to their larger unit size, the Cuchulainns can suffer a single casualty and still be hitting with an average of three ERMPLs per salvo, enough to one-shot an Ogre if they're lucky enough that all three hits strike the same suit. Even when down to one remaining suit, the Clan unit remains dangerous and potentially could win a Pyrrhic victory.

If you have more than one squad/Point per side, then the Ogres can take losses and still achieve the all important threshold of three Infernos per turn, but in return the Cuchulainns will be killing them quicker. While the Clan suits are almost guaranteed to take some losses,  they should still come out victorious more often than not.


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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #55 on: 08 September 2014, 10:03:38 »
Maybe  :)

Getting to do 10 points of damage with a single hit is always nice, but as long as you have the 2 extra slot space and the required tech access, then there's not really any reason to chose an HML over 2 MLs. The latter match the range and total damage, and are more accurate. How the extra crit possibility balances against the greater damage concentration is a matter of taste.

That leaves flavor as the last decider, and - depending upon your POV - that can often be the dominant factor.
The MLs have an extra crit possibility due to numbers, but the HMLs will go internal on a head with one shot, which is another trade off.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #56 on: 08 September 2014, 10:08:05 »
...Obviously, once two Ogres are down, then they're better off retreating as they then have zero chance of killing a Cuchulainn.

...you REALLY hate the SRM-2 cluster chart, I take it.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #57 on: 08 September 2014, 10:11:31 »
It's less than pleasant, but the big issue is that even with always rolling 12s on the Cluster Hit Table, you're still only going to get two Inferno hits. As three are needed to kill a suit, the Ogres at this point should have an expression like Wylie Coyote just after he realizes that he's ran off the edge of a cliff.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #58 on: 08 September 2014, 10:34:35 »
Wait. How do two Ogres fire four missiles, yet are physically incapable of connecting with more than half of their missiles? ???
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Heavy Battlesuit Comparison
« Reply #59 on: 08 September 2014, 10:47:31 »
Don't battle armor total up their missile tubes and roll that as one group to hit and on the cluster table, per page 218 of total warfare?  That would make it use the 2s column only if there's one Ogre remaining, 4s if there's two left, 6s if three, and 8s if all four are still alive.  On average, they're still killing a suit a turn at 3 Ogres, and have a 58% chance of killing one when reduced to just two.

 

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