Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread IV - READ THE FIRST POST

[Scarecrow]

I would say yes, but the Stormcrow prime has same armor and structure, TMM 2, and does 5/5/2 and it's cost is 43. TMM 3 should not have a 12 point cost.

[Scotty]

The Men Shen Prime has IF and RCN, both of which cost additional points, and the higher TMM modifies the defensive numbers as well as the offensive numbers.  The extra MV itself also comes with an additional cost.  It is expected for TMM 3 units with good medium range damage to be more expensive than TMM 2 units with similar damage.

That said you appear to be correct that the points cost may be in error.  Doing it up myself, I'm getting 54 PV for the Men Shen Prime.  I'm unsure if my math is off or the Men Shen card is off, so my calculations are presented below.  In either case, the gap between the two shrinks by one PV at most.  It's hard to overstate 1) how effective and 2) how expensive the jump from TMM 2 to TMM3 (and the corresponding increased movement speed) is.

Men Shen Prime:

Attack Damage Factor: 4+(4x2)+1 = 13
Unit Size Factor: (2/2) = 1
Overheat Factor: 0
Offensive Special Ability Factor: 1 (IF1)
Total Offensive Value: 15

Movement Factor: (16/8) = 2
Defensive Special Abilities Factor: 0
Defensive Interaction Rating: [12 (Armor Factor 6x2) + 3 (Structure Factor 3x1)] * 1.75 (Defense Factor 1 + 0.75 for TMM 3) = 26.25
Total Defensive Value: 28.25

Ground Unit Force Bonus: 2 (RCN) + 1 (PRB) = 3
Agile Modifier: 8 (4 Medium range damage * 2 [TMM-1])

Final PV: 15 + 28.25 + 3 + 8 = 54.25, rounds normally to 54.

In contrast, the Stormcrow numbers appear to be accurate.

Stormcrow Prime:

Attack Damage Factor: 5+(5x2)+2 = 17
Unit Size Factor: (2/2) = 1
Overheat Factor: 0
Total Offensive Value: 18

Movement Factor: (12/8) = 1.5
Defensive Special Abilities Factor: 0
Defensive Interaction Rating: [12 (Armor Factor 6x2) + 3 (Structure Factor 3x1)] * 1.2 (Defense Factor 1 + 0.2 for TMM 2) = 18
Total Defensive Value: 19.5

Agile Modifier: 5 (5 Medium range damage * 1 [TMM-1])

Final PV: 18 + 19.5 + 5 = 42.5, rounds normally to 43.

[Scarecrow]

Ok, I tried to do the calculations last night and ended up doing it like 4 times and I was getting like 42, but I may have missed something.

[Sartris]

Ok, I tried to do the calculations last night and ended up doing it like 4 times and I was getting like 42, but I may have missed something.

it's useful when questioning the BV or PV of units to post your own calculations. We can't determine if you have found something if we can't see what you've done.

We'll put our top man on figuring out if there is an error here. if it's supposed to have a PV of 54, it would also mean MML's formula is off as well.

[Scotty]

it's useful when questioning the BV or PV of units to post your own calculations. We can't determine if you have found something if we can't see what you've done.

We'll put our top man on figuring out if there is an error here. if it's supposed to have a PV of 54, it would also mean MML's formula is off as well.

Based on my calculations, first place I'd look is to see whether it's rounding up or rounding normally for the final total.  Seems like the most likely place if there is one.

[Sartris]

Defensive Interaction Rating: [12 (Armor Factor 6x2) + 3 (Structure Factor 3x1)] * 1.75 (Defense Factor 1 + 0.75 for TMM 3) = 26.25

round to the nearest half point in this step

[Scotty]

That would do it.  I saw the note in errata to modify that section (clarifying wording) and mentally interpreted it as "remove this bit".

[Bison AIs]

At least three Clan units with Machine Gun Arrays (e.g. Lobo 3, Pariah C, Piranha 4) appear to have BVs as if their clan MGA bvs were calculated with the 0.67 multiplier for Inner Sphere MGAs listed in Tech Manual (~p.317) rather than the 0.1 multiplier listed for Clan MGAs in Tac Ops (p.197).

Here's an example calc of the Pariah C from Mordel (https://mordel.net/tro.php?a=cbm) that has a final value (2,227)  matching the MUL (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5021/pariah-septicemia-c).

Note the MGA BVs in Model's calc are each 13.4 (5x4x0.67) rather than 2 (5x4x0.1) .

Other Clan MGA-wielding units may be affected -- the three listed are the first and only ones I've checked.

Alternatively, perhaps a TO typo?

[DoubleScion]

Hi, I hope this is the right place for this info!

I think it looks like the Jenner JR7-F should be added to ComStar's availability on MUL. In the CGL Battle of Tukayyid book on page 152, it describes anti-Elemental Level II formations: "These Level IIs consisted of three Shadow Hawk -2Ht and three Jenner -F BattleMechs, and would be assigned to a Division to respond to heavy concentrations of Elementals anywhere in that Division's operational area." But in the MUL entry below, ComStar is not listed.

Jenner JR7-F:
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1693/jenner-jr7-f

Thanks!

[commuterzombie]

I think it looks like the Jenner JR7-F should be added to ComStar's availability on MUL. In the CGL Battle of Tukayyid book on page 152, it describes anti-Elemental Level II formations: "These Level IIs consisted of three Shadow Hawk -2Ht and three Jenner -F BattleMechs, and would be assigned to a Division to respond to heavy concentrations of Elementals anywhere in that Division's operational area." But in the MUL entry below, ComStar is not listed.

Huh, that sounds like a cool level II to have, I totally missed that it was an option as the Jenner is not listed at all in the Light mech RAT for Comstar and even the special force building notes for the 1st Army 12th Division only mention the JR7-C as an option. I did find that text on p.162 of my 2nd printing Battle for Tukkayyid book (in the ShadowHawk SHD-2Ht readout info) so you'd think it would be mentioned elsewhere. Bit of an oddity that!

Speaking of oddities, I was building out an Assault level II from the same book and noticed that the Alpha Strike card on the MUL for the King Crab KGC-001 only has 4 structure points. Pretty sure it should have 8 structure like the other variants.

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1773/king-crab-kgc-001

[Sartris]

XL engine

[commuterzombie]

Oh wow, that's a big structure hit. Guess it's reflecting the greater chance of engine crits without altering crit tables and such? Well, thanks for letting me know it's not a mistake.

[Sartris]

Guess it's reflecting the greater chance of engine crits without altering crit tables and such?

correct

[Colt Ward]

From TRO 3145: Mercs, 1st paragraph of the entry-

The Raven merchant caste saw enough
potential in the Gossamer to broker an export
agreement with Clan Sea Fox, leaving the
Alliance to produce the Gossamer and the Foxes
to distribute it. It has proven a wildly successful
export in use throughout the Inner Sphere.


The only limit on sales explicitly mentioned is the Draconis Combine, yet it is not it mercs until ilClan with just the Dragoons.

[Bison AIs]

The Crab-27sl is listed as tech:Advanced but as best I can tell it's plain Standard Lostech. 🤔

[Sartris]

unsure why it was ever set as advanced. changed to standard

[saigan]

Pike Support Vehicle (Plasma) BV

MUL BV: 892
Rec Guide BV: 1367

[nckestrel]

Pike Support Vehicle (Plasma) BV

MUL BV: 892
Rec Guide BV: 1367

Thanks.

[RickE]

Is there anything new about the Infantry BV changes resulting from the 2021 Errata of the TechManual (https://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/TechManual-TM_22-Tech-InfTables-Rev2021.pdf)? Even though there are only some minor differences with some Units ( e.g http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1436/heavy-infantry , listed as 149 BV, calculated by hand and by MegaMek as 142 BV), there are quite big differences with others like the Clan Heavy Jump Infantry (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/609/clan-heavy-jump-infantry , listed as 136 BV, calculated by hand and by MegaMek as 278 BV)

[Sartris]

It’s on the to-do list. It requires a significant amount of by-hand calculation to get the numbers right and the people most adept at that sort of thing are busy with other projects.

[Nerroth]

While not an errata line item per se, I wanted to clarify something as regards the way in which certain factions are - or are not -covered by their respective Master Unit List entries.

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For example: My understanding is that the post-Reaving Goliath Scorpions (be it the Imperio prior to the Hanseatic Crusade, or the Empire thereafter) are not covered by the IS Clan General list - since they aren't in the Inner Sphere or near Periphery, recent acquisitions in the Chaine Cluster notwithstanding. Nor are they covered by the Homeworld Clan General list either - since, whatever might be going on in the Homeworlds post-3095, the Scorpions are no longer a part of it.

So, the MUL listings for the Dark Age-era Imperio, or for the IlClan-era Empire, in and of themselves comprise the most complete set of units known to exist for the Scorpions at the present time of typing - to potentially include any Sea Fox unit types seized by the Scorpions as isorla in 3151, per Spotlight On: Hellion Keshik.

Is this correct?

-----

If so, I wonder if it might be possible to one day approach the Hanseatic League as a would-be MUL faction in a similar manner.

On the one hand, there is data in files such as Objectives: Periphery and Operational Turning Points: Hanseatic Crusade which notes certain units which existed in Hansa space at certain points in time. Some of these, such as the Manatee DropShip or the Surtur BattleMech, have been inherited by the Scorpion Empire (or upgraded by them, in the case of the Awesome C) in the wake of the conquest.

But on the other hand, while OTP:HC also notes that the Hansa had, by the eve of the invasion, reached the technology level of the Inner Sphere and near Periphery realms of c. 3067, the League itself remained at a significant remove from the likes of, say, the Magistracy of Canopus or the Taurian Concordat - much as their Goliath Scorpion nemeses were largely isolated from the Council of Six Clans (long-range Seeker quests notwithstanding) during this same time period.

So, might it one day be possible for the Hansa to be considered as a "separate" MUL faction: as in, one which would not be covered by the Periphery General lists (nor, indeed, cause any adjustments to be made to said lists) for the eras in which the League existed, much as has been the case for the Scorpions to date?

Of course, if even this would not make adding the Hansa as a MUL faction any more likely, fair enough...

[Sartris]

1) There are a few factions that are not attached to a general list. The most prominent of which are Mercs and the imperio / scorpions. It’s  WYSIWYG on their list. They may field some other units not listed, but not in quantities that get them on the list (as is standard policy). 

If you feel something is missing that is indicated to pre present in a canon source, we are happy to review it.

2) more would have to be published on Hansa previous to the crusade.

[Nerroth]

1) There are a few factions that are not attached to a general list. The most prominent of which are Mercs and the imperio / scorpions. It’s  WYSIWYG on their list. They may field some other units not listed, but not in quantities that get them on the list (as is standard policy). 

If you feel something is missing that is indicated to pre present in a canon source, we are happy to review it.

So, as a further example:

The Wraith miniature offered in the Alpha Strike Boxed Set is not currently available on the IlClan Era Scorpion MUL listings - but it is listed as a Clan Sea Fox 'Mech in their IlClan Era MUL listings. (Ironically, that same box set also includes a Warhawk, which by the IlClan Era is produced only by the Scorpions!)

So, if a player wishes to (try to) paint one's recently-acquired Wraith mini in some manner of Scorpion colours, there'd be grounds for doing so (claimed as isorla from the Foxes, perhaps) on a gaming tabletop. But for the MUL itself to be modified, a future canon product would have to explicitly state that the Wraith was one of the 'Mech designs acquired as per SO:HK.

Would this be correct?

2) more would have to be published on Hansa previous to the crusade.

Is there a particular threshold the pre-Crusade Hansa would have to reach in order for this to happen?

Not that I expect the Hansa to be looked at again any time soon, granted...

[Doc Swift]

Any specifications obtained in the trial in the Chaine Cluster were *just* obtained. There hasn't been enough time to retool a factory to build anything new. Perhaps in the future, but I think it's a bit early to expect their unit availability lists to change.

[Sartris]

1) Players can paint any mech any scheme that they want. Paint has no effect of game rules. Do what makes you happy. Any justifications are player-generated.

But yes, for units to be added to factions, there needs to be canon justification (this includes material we have access to that is not public).

2) there are no thresholds, no.

[commuterzombie]

Is there a problem with the MUL at the moment? Connections to it are timing out and resulting in a 500 error.

[Sartris]

Seems to have worked itself out

[CReller]

RE: Quasar Omnifighter PV

Howdy folks. Is there a reason why the Quasar Omnifighter has a BV on the MUL but no PV associated with the units?

Looking into the source material for the Quasar, the majority of the ASFs added with TRO: Golden Century are missing their PVs.

Thanks in advance!

[Sartris]

there is a small group of units that have recordsheets with BV but no PV. it's on our list

[ocherstone]

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4380/issus-2

Per the story "Trial of Possession" beginning on page 70 of Total Warfare, would the Issus 2 be available any earlier than the 3066 the MUL shows? I believe I have the first printing. I haven't verified it in any other printing, assuming canonicity isn't an issue.