Author Topic: Armored Fighting Vehicles version M4 - are we going with that? Sure, man.  (Read 196888 times)

DoctorMonkey

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a couple of other interesting links - one on British Army tank IDs and the other on the organisation of a Tiger 1 company


http://tank100.com/headline-news/numbers/


http://blog.tiger-tank.com/tanks/the-panzerkompanie/
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Kidd

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Dated, but still sexy... kinda


PsihoKekec

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That IR cover looks like burqa for tanks.
Shoot first, laugh later.

Nightlord01

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Is that a cammo uniform with reflective bands on the arms? ???

Not reflective until it's wet, if you can believe it. Navy doesn't consider it camouflage, it's a working dress that shares a pattern with the DPCU, hence DPNU.



We call this one "Glamourflage"

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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I thought glamourflauge was what you used to blend in at a David Bowie concert.
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Matti

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I thought glamourflauge was what you used to blend in at a David Bowie concert.
I Googled it up:
Quote
Glamourflage is an Australian-based beauty and skincare brand. We pride ourselves on adding a dash of 1950's glamour to your everyday beauty routine!
So it's not just for the concerts
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Cache

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Which has been morphed into a ridiculous new Air Force general purpose uniform  ::)

https://raafacairns.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/raaf-general-purpose-uniform.jpg
Our Air Force almost went with those colors, but the digital tiger stripe pattern. Along with a nice, embroidered, 3-button henley undershirt.  ::)  I'm glad all I had to wear was the stupid gray tiger stripe.

Feenix74

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I always liked my old "hearts and bunnies" DPCUs and when I was in, there was talk about having an Air Force brassard (probably navy blue with an Air Force patch) to wear in non-combat situations to make it easier to identify and differentiate from Army but it never happened. It would have been the more in-expensive solution than issuing a full set of new RAAF General Purpose uniforms but obviously TPTB decided that "glamourflage" was the preferred solution.
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I tried to find a picture of the Million Pound Tank that was used by the British government to sell war bonds in World War One, but my Googlefu is weak.
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Cannonshop

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let's bring this back, to target, and armored vehicle pron...



not necessarily the sexiest tank, but...
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Having weak Armor-Fu...it's pretty, and seems smaller than most tanks. What is it?
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HobbesHurlbut

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The body remind me of the M5 Stuart.
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Garrand

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Guessing its an M8? Based on markings & crew uniforms, from the '90s or so.

There was talk about refurbing them & updating the electronics for the 21st C battlefield, & re-enter the US Light tank competition. Haven't heard anything since...

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Kidd

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Wild guess here... Textron Stingray. Which only the Royal Thai Army operates.

Cannonshop

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Wild guess here... Textron Stingray. Which only the Royal Thai Army operates.

dingding! correct, that is the Cadillac-Gage Stingray (Textron came late to the party).
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DoctorMonkey

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tanks tanks tanks


note the large "don't shoot me" flag on the second Scimitar for the benefit of any A-10 pilots in the area


actually, they're not referred to as tanks but Combat Vehicle Reconnaissance (Tracked)
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worktroll

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I've always been fond of the TAM - Tanque Argentino Mediano:



Here's a graphic with the TAM next to the Scorpion:

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worktroll

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And here's the family shot:

* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

ColBosch

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Most of those are obvious, but...what the hell is the VCTP supposed to be?
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That, IIRC, is the APC version - 12 infantry plus driver. Remember, it's based on the Marder, so the situation is similar. Big-ass turret, though, plus remote gun station rear-covering. Looks like that's bolted on top.

Wonder if the mine-clearing blades are permanently mounted on the mortar carrier?
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

DoctorMonkey

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Most of those are obvious, but...what the hell is the VCTP supposed to be?


Google suggests it is an IFV but I have no idea what it stands for
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Kidd

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Garrand's M8 suggestion somehow put the notion to me.

Medium tanks are popular in the ASEAN region, being cheaper, lighter and narrower than MBTs. The latter qualities give them an advantage over MBTs navigating secondary jungle, plantations, narrow village and city streets, riverbanks and light bridges. They can support infantry assaults, kill IFVs and perhaps even MBTs at close range.

Though both Indonesia and Singapore field extensively-upgraded Leopard 2s, both are procuring medium tanks, the Singaporeans developing an indigenous vehicle while the Indons opting to license produce the Turkish Kaplan MT armed with a 105mm Cockerill turret, below.



Here's a graphic with the TAM next to the Scorpion Stingray:
Scorpion is the British CVRT with 90mm gun. Just remember, the Stingray is the only tank in the world named for a sea creature  ::)

Google suggests it is an IFV but I have no idea what it stands for
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« Last Edit: 14 April 2018, 14:51:22 by Kidd »

HobbesHurlbut

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Google suggests it is an IFV but I have no idea what it stands for
I can see the P must stand for Personnel going off the other designations.
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ANS Kamas P81

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So here's a question.  Obviously in games like War Thunder, you keep on fighting until you're deadified beyond anything.  Full loss of crew, for starters; what happens in most cases when a tank takes a penetrating hit and doesn't end up with a mulched crew that tries to push the headless body of the gunner out of the way and go back to battle?  At what point is it acceptable to bail out of a tank, especially older machines from older wars?  Nowadays, I understand, the things are so robust that mission kills mean you just sit around and protect the tank until recovery crews show up, but what about in prior battles?  What's the expectation, and what's the typical history, for the crew when they get a serious hit?  Not counting ammo explosions or fires where the whole crew's obviously dead, of course.
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marauder648

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With modern tanks it seems to be basically one of two things happening.

1 - Mobility kill, hunker down if under fire, bail out if not as you're now an immobile target.

2 - Penetration - most of the crew die in a horrific way if they can't get out before the ammo goes up.

Because when tanks go, they tend to go very messily, once a shells inside, there's nothing to stop it from hitting what ever the hell it wants, along with a cloud of razor sharp, exceptionally hot metal.  Or a jet of superheated metal.

Whilst you can find a LOT of video's from the fighting in Syria and that region, I won't link them here.

but I will link this vid from a documentary.  That a few seconds after a hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHZbC-VCyoE

Once that had died down, you'd be getting the crew out of that with a bucket and mop if you was lucky.  What you're seeing is the propellant for the ammo cooking off. Most tank shells nowdays don't go BANG when they hit something as they are generally solid lumps of very fast moving metal.  A tank might have some or more HE rounds onboard but they are not enough to cause a huge bang.  But the propellant is and thats what causes the jets of flame to roar out of hatches that you've probably seen or will see in that video.

« Last Edit: 15 April 2018, 06:40:20 by marauder648 »
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DoctorMonkey

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So here's a question.  Obviously in games like War Thunder, you keep on fighting until you're deadified beyond anything.  Full loss of crew, for starters; what happens in most cases when a tank takes a penetrating hit and doesn't end up with a mulched crew that tries to push the headless body of the gunner out of the way and go back to battle?  At what point is it acceptable to bail out of a tank, especially older machines from older wars?  Nowadays, I understand, the things are so robust that mission kills mean you just sit around and protect the tank until recovery crews show up, but what about in prior battles?  What's the expectation, and what's the typical history, for the crew when they get a serious hit?  Not counting ammo explosions or fires where the whole crew's obviously dead, of course.


From my understanding, post-WW2 tanks don't have "spare" crew - everyone has a vital role in making the tank an effective combat unit. While you might need to finish an engagement the loss of the crew member (doesn't have to be dead, just incapacitated) would mean it would be worth pulling out of the battle fairly quickly for replacement.


The crew can be thought of as three parts, either with three or four crew depending on whether or not there is an auto-loader.
The commander provides the situational awareness - often sticking their head out of the turret and so may well be the one lost to a sniper, shell fragment etc.
The gun crew provides the firepower - while the commander might be able to take over either the gunner or loader role they would then still lose the commander; this might be adequate if the tank is retreating and laying down fire fairly haphazardly to cover this but in any sort of attack would be bad.
The driver provides the mobility - without this, you just have an expensive pillbox.


At the risk of sounding like you are de-humanising the crew, consider them as components in a machine the same as the guns, engine, tracks etc and then consider when you would pull out of battle versus carrying on.


In terms of when "penetration" occurs, I wonder what would happen with a Western tank without auto-loader and with the ammunition kept away from the crew - would some at least stand a chance of survival despite the presumed spall and other badness that would occur due to the penetration from a kinetic energy or explosively formed bit of metal making a surprise entrance into their living space?
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Kidd

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In terms of when "penetration" occurs, I wonder what would happen with a Western tank without auto-loader and with the ammunition kept away from the crew - would some at least stand a chance of survival despite the presumed spall and other badness that would occur due to the penetration from a kinetic energy or explosively formed bit of metal making a surprise entrance into their living space?
Its happened before - they just button up and wait for support as per doctrine, move the tank back towards ftiendly lines if they can. Well trained crews who trust in the firepower and willingness of their support to come back for them will obey their training and survive.

Unfortunately for other armies, the crews often bail even when the tank is still operational. That's how a lot of tanks get captured by, er, non-state actors. Since often this happens when the lines have been broken and everyone is legging it for home, they don't usually make it back - and certain parties don't take prisoners.

marauder648

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You can understand the desire to get out though, especially after the introduction of a high velocity lump of metal and its friends into your rather cramped fighting space that no doubt caused consternation and irritation for all involved. 

The propellant for a tank shell is very stable and what it does not technically do is explode.  It burns incredibly rapidly and at high heat.  This is called a deflagration effect.

take for example the USS Arizona

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujquq7IU0uY

That right there is her ammuniton not exploding, because there was lots left of the ship, if her magazine had exploded there wouldn't be much left of her at all.  That is a deflagration, the propellant is all ignighting and burning as its meant to in a gun tube.  Just when you've got multiple tons of it all going off at once the result is that. 

« Last Edit: 15 April 2018, 06:54:45 by marauder648 »
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ANS Kamas P81

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It's kind of an odd question, but it came about thinking about those loss numbers for American crews from WWII.  For every Sherman "destroyed" with five man crews, the average was something like only 1.2 casualties per.  So what do the other 3.8 crew go do with themselves, typically?  Especially when you can take more than one serious hit and keep operating.
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marauder648

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It's kind of an odd question, but it came about thinking about those loss numbers for American crews from WWII.  For every Sherman "destroyed" with five man crews, the average was something like only 1.2 casualties per.  So what do the other 3.8 crew go do with themselves, typically?  Especially when you can take more than one serious hit and keep operating.

In reality if you take a serious hit, that means a penetration and a shell bouncing around the inside of a tank being a general menace and making all grouchy.  And that means who ever is in that area is either hurt or dead, and at that point the rest of the crew would wisely think "Nope" and get the hell out.  Sherman crew casualties were helped by the well designed interior and the large hatches, making it easy to debuss if its a case of "On look, the tanks on fire.".

British and Soviet tanks were harder to get out of, the French even more so.
« Last Edit: 15 April 2018, 07:01:42 by marauder648 »
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