Author Topic: Armored Fighting Vehicles version M4 - are we going with that? Sure, man.  (Read 196924 times)

marauder648

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Or a TD like a Wolverine.
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Wereling

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Or a TD like a Wolverine.
Possible, but IIRC Wolverines usually ended up in TD Battalions not Arty battalions. I could easily be wrong though.

For that matter could it be a Stuart? There's the M8 Gun Motor Carriage for that one  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howitzer_Motor_Carriage_M8

Dave Talley

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CDAT
minor quibble, M8s were an outgrowth of the M5s which came from the M3s

but also M8s were generally assigned to cavalry units as support for M5 units

as to the M40, assuming the unit was updated with them, an XO most likely be in a command vehicle, such as what were referred to as defrocked priests, ie no gun
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CDAT

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CDAT
minor quibble, M8s were an outgrowth of the M5s which came from the M3s

but also M8s were generally assigned to cavalry units as support for M5 units

as to the M40, assuming the unit was updated with them, an XO most likely be in a command vehicle, such as what were referred to as defrocked priests, ie no gun

Opps, My bad.  :-[

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National pride is a thing, of course; being able to say "we made it ourselves" is kind of nice.

Most people would like as much control over their defence supply chain as possible, for obvious reasons. It also helps the balance of trade and local economy if things are built locally rather than overseas.

India is large enough that it has the economies of scale for a domestic defence industry to be viable. However they don't have the complex weapons development expertise, so they've spent a lot of money trying to get things going.

Unfortunately they have significant domestic quality control issues. Their erstwhile best friend, Russia, was also the source of significant quality control issues.

Often they just give up and buy a boatload of foreign equipment, which is a quick fix rather than a proper solution. Whichever move made, it attracts internal political squabbles.

Dave Talley

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Opps, My bad.  :-[

no issue
I only have picked it up by delving thru a buttload of stuff for Bolt Action,
i tend to obsess over TO&E, so I like knowing all this stuff, granted with the US in WW2, there were armor regiments both integrated and independent, recon/cav units, artillery units and the tank destroyer setup was completely separate

germans were worse on recon stuff though, huge variation in vehicles depending on whether it started as what type
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Matti

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i tend to obsess over TO&E
Great! Can you tell what are artillery regiments like, and does this BattleTech equivalent come anywhere close of it?
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CDAT

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Great! Can you tell what are artillery regiments like, and does this BattleTech equivalent come anywhere close of it?

If you want to look at some WWII TO&E's here is a page to look at http://www.niehorster.org/index.htm
Here is the page for a Armored Division Artillery http://www.niehorster.org/013_usa/44_org/div-arm/ad_arty.html
Each Artillery Battalion http://www.niehorster.org/013_usa/44_org/div-arm/ad_arty_bn.html
and each Artillery Battery http://www.niehorster.org/013_usa/44_org/div-arm/ad_arty_bty.html

So building it back up from bottom to top. Each battery has 6 105mm M7 artillery, each battalion would have 18 artillery pieces, and the Division would have 54 artillery pieces. Now they also have a lot of other stuff

Edit
Fixed Company to Battery.
« Last Edit: 02 February 2019, 13:01:36 by CDAT »

Matti

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each battalion would have 18 artillery pieces
That few? I recall reading from somewhere that JGSDF artillery battalion has 40 guns

[edit]
And to my understanding, 4-6 howitzers (or whatever else) isn't called company but battery.
« Last Edit: 02 February 2019, 11:24:33 by Matti »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Back during WW2, SPGs were in their infancy.  Artillery battalions still depended heavily on towed guns.
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kato

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That few? I recall reading from somewhere that JGSDF artillery battalion has 40 guns
Actually, the JGSDF traditionally has below-typical numbers of guns for a given unit size. Usual sizes are 32-48 guns per regiment (!), although that depends on the division and exact time. Usually these are spread out into a number of two-battery "direct support" battalions with only 8 guns per battalion, later enlarged to 12 (one "direct support" battalion per combat battalion in the division). Historically - Cold War - there tended to also be a "proper" artillery battalion grouping the usual 16-24 guns, although i think that has been redistributed to enlarge the "direct support" battalions instead.

does this BattleTech equivalent come anywhere close of it?
Suggestion: Form up each battalion as three batteries, each with a single "shooting lance" (for 12 guns per battalion) and otherwise support vehicles if you want to come close.

Matti

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Suggestion: Form up each battalion as three batteries, each with a single "shooting lance" (for 12 guns per battalion) and otherwise support vehicles if you want to come close.
So 1 company of self-propelled artillery, 1 company of escorts (2 platoons) & recon (1 platoon), and 1 company of J-27 trucks with trailers + Heavy APC with battalion headquarters staff and communications equipment. Something like that?
« Last Edit: 02 February 2019, 11:48:00 by Matti »
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kato

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So 1 company of self-propelled artillery, 1 company of escorts (2 platoons) & recon (1 platoon), and 1 company of J-27 trucks with trailers + Heavy APC with battalion headquarters staff and communications equipment. Something like that?
Nah, per artillery battalion three batteries which each have
- 1 platoon self-propelled artillery (4 guns)
- 1 platoon trucks (ammo transport)
- 1 platoon with communications equipment and similar to stand in for battery sensor/command vehicles.

Here's the Orbat of German divisional Artillery Regiment 12 in 1989 for some realism:



a) Staff/HQ Battery
- includes two "Special Artillery Platoons" (alternate crews for one firing platoon each, for nuclear weapons deployment; one for field artillery battalion in regiment, the other for artillery battalions of attached brigades)

b) Escort Battery
- three infantry platoons of 70 men each supported by attached 3x 20mm automatic guns (on trucks)

c) Field Artillery Battalion
- Staff Battery, includes two HQ platoons, each with 4x 20mm automatic guns for air defense
- Field Artillery Battery (three firing platoons with 3x FH70 155mm each)
- Field Artillery Battery (three firing platoons with 3x FH70 155mm each)
- Field Artillery Battery (three firing platoons with 3x M110A2 203mm each)
- Field Artillery Battery (three firing platoons with 3x M110A2 203mm each)
- attached (peacetime) medical / driver training / sports group

d) Rocket Artillery Battalion
- Staff Battery, includes one HQ platoon with 4x 20mm automatic guns for air defense
- Rocket Artillery Battery (two firing platoons with 4x light MLRS 110mm each)
- Rocket Artillery Battery (two firing platoons with 4x light MLRS 110mm each)
- Rocket Artillery Battery (two firing platoons with 4x heavy MLRS 227mm each)
- Rocket Artillery Battery (two firing platoons with 4x heavy MLRS 227mm each)
- attached (peacetime) sports group

e) Artillery Observation Battalion
- Staff Battery
- Artillery Sound Ranging Battery
- Artillery Radar Battery
- Drone Battery (three platoons with 4x CL289 rocket drone system)

Numbers in parentheses behind each line above are manpower, with a prefaced [F] it's different peacetime strength.
« Last Edit: 02 February 2019, 15:17:34 by kato »

Charlie 6

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So, in my time in USMC Artillery, we had six-gun batteries with three per battalion.  That meant back in the '90s and early '00s 10th and 11th Marines each had four battalions of 18 howitzers each:  72 guns across each regiment.  14th Marine Regiment still had five battalions in '03 and it had upwards of 90 guns.

Ideally, each of the first three battalions would provide direct support (including observers) to the three rifle regiments of a division.  The last of the battalions, 5th Battalion, was meant to be general support for the Division Commander.  The fourth battalions, disestablished in the very early 90's for 10th and 11th Marines, were meant to reinforce the direct support battalions.  Longer in caliber and potentially larger in diameter, they could reach across the battlefield to augment the direct support fires.

Why 18 guns per battalion?  Well six-gun batteries are inherently more powerful than four-gun platoons and less structurally cumbersome than a two-platoon, eight-gun battery.  At least I think so. 

So given a Real World to Battletech translation, I'd go with a six-gun battery, with three observer vehicles and three securty vehicles.  Triple that for a battalion.

Also here's a picture of my seven-gun battery back in '03.

DoctorMonkey

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So, in my time in USMC Artillery, we had six-gun batteries with three per battalion.  That meant back in the '90s and early '00s 10th and 11th Marines each had four battalions of 18 howitzers each:  72 guns across each regiment.  14th Marine Regiment still had five battalions in '03 and it had upwards of 90 guns.

Ideally, each of the first three battalions would provide direct support (including observers) to the three rifle regiments of a division.  The last of the battalions, 5th Battalion, was meant to be general support for the Division Commander.  The fourth battalions, disestablished in the very early 90's for 10th and 11th Marines, were meant to reinforce the direct support battalions.  Longer in caliber and potentially larger in diameter, they could reach across the battlefield to augment the direct support fires.

Why 18 guns per battalion?  Well six-gun batteries are inherently more powerful than four-gun platoons and less structurally cumbersome than a two-platoon, eight-gun battery.  At least I think so. 

So given a Real World to Battletech translation, I'd go with a six-gun battery, with three observer vehicles and three securty vehicles.  Triple that for a battalion.

Also here's a picture of my seven-gun battery back in '03.



Are the security vehicles the prime movers and ammunition haulers, command/communication vehicles or a separate tasking that might also be used for reconnaissance of the next firing point?
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Charlie 6

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Are the security vehicles the prime movers and ammunition haulers, command/communication vehicles or a separate tasking that might also be used for reconnaissance of the next firing point?
Well in Battletech I'd assume the howitzers would be self-propelled and logistics being "off-board" so to speak.

In Real Life, very few vehicles were single-use trucks.  Four of my six prime movers had heavy machine guns on them.  Four of my other 7-ton trucks had ring mounts as well as three hardback (not armored) HMMWVs.  When my Advance Party went to recon a new position, I would take two of the hardbacks, one 7-ton along with two soft-skinned radio vehicles (also HMMWVs).  I didn't put any ring mounts on the six ammo trucks because my philosophy has pretty much been that people shoot at the things shooting at them and I'd rather not invite the bad guys to shoot at a few hundred HE rounds.

Matti

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Well in Battletech I'd assume the howitzers would be self-propelled and logistics being "off-board" so to speak.

In Real Life, very few vehicles were single-use trucks.  Four of my six prime movers had heavy machine guns on them.  Four of my other 7-ton trucks had ring mounts as well as three hardback (not armored) HMMWVs.  When my Advance Party went to recon a new position, I would take two of the hardbacks, one 7-ton along with two soft-skinned radio vehicles (also HMMWVs).  I didn't put any ring mounts on the six ammo trucks because my philosophy has pretty much been that people shoot at the things shooting at them and I'd rather not invite the bad guys to shoot at a few hundred HE rounds.
Well, in BattleTech trucks can be modified to have Machine Gun and/or SRM2 easily enough, though that cuts cargo capacity. Pity PBI scale weapons aren't supported, but with house rules you could declare PBI squad riding open-topped truck (is there a rule for such vehicle?) can shoot out from it without dismounting. Or in place of Humvee you can use wheeled mechanized infantry, or tracked mechanized infantry for half-tracks (or open-topped M113).
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HobbesHurlbut

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Well, in BattleTech trucks can be modified to have Machine Gun and/or SRM2 easily enough, though that cuts cargo capacity. Pity PBI scale weapons aren't supported, but with house rules you could declare PBI squad riding open-topped truck (is there a rule for such vehicle?) can shoot out from it without dismounting. Or in place of Humvee you can use wheeled mechanized infantry, or tracked mechanized infantry for half-tracks (or open-topped M113).
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DoctorMonkey

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browsing around I found this website which, despite clunky graphics, has a good seeming and pretty comprehensive detail on British artillery particularly focusing on WW2


http://nigelef.tripod.com/directory.htm
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Matti

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I know it's available for small support vehicles under 5 tons, but what about combat vehicles like APC (Wheeled)?
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Make your APC small enough, you've got no problems.
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Matti

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Make your APC small enough, you've got no problems.
Yeah, it's called Mechanized Infantry
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Weirdo

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Only if you choose to play that way. TW mechinf are an abstraction to keep games sane. Nothing stopping you from using small APCs and separate infantry squads if you want.
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DoctorMonkey

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Make your APC small enough, you've got no problems.


Except for grumpy infantry who don't like being kept in pressurised containers
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ANS Kamas P81

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Considering they only made twenty of these things, a trio together in one photo's pretty rare.
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glitterboy2098

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The label says they are german A7V's, but the vehicles in the picture are the french Saint-Chamond. Which had 400 built. (While labelled a tank, the St.Chamond's were actually more self propelled artillery.)
« Last Edit: 05 February 2019, 00:00:06 by glitterboy2098 »

Feenix74

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Definitely not a German A7V, this is Mephisto the A7V that was captured and is now on display at the Brisbane Rail Museum (it is plastic preservation bubble):

Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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ANS Kamas P81

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My bad then!  Certainly looked like the A7V there.

Mephisto must be in rough shape, considering the state of preservation of other WWI armor at Bovington.  Or else she's completely covered in original everything, and they don't want to strip it down and redo it.
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marauder648

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The one with the three tanks together is a trio of French St Charmond's their first tank.  And the AV-7's in its bubble to try and prevent moisture from getting to her, she's an old lady and really any maintnenace now is purely preservative. 

Bovington did get an AV-7 replica made though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztkKJUQB4rU
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Feenix74

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Mephisto lives in BrisVegas which has a humid subtropical climate (with hot, wet summers and dry, moderately warm winters).

More info on Mephisto:
 http://www.qm.qld.gov.au/Find+out+about/Histories+of+Queensland/Conflict/Mephisto#.XFlMAVUza03

https://www.awm.gov.au/about/our-work/projects/mephisto
« Last Edit: 05 February 2019, 03:43:36 by Feenix74 »
Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


                                   - excepts from Murphy's Laws of Combat

 

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