Author Topic: Armored Fighting Vehicles version M4 - are we going with that? Sure, man.  (Read 198979 times)

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37307
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
I like the bearded beemer!  8)

Orin J.

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2785
  • I am to feared! Aw, come on guys...
so YOU'RE the jerk who made it so we can't clamber into the tanks?!
The Grey Death Legion? Dead? Gotcha, wake me when it's back.....
--------------------------
Every once in a while things make sense.


Don't let these moments alarm you. They pass.

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25632
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Alas, yes. Oh, that fraction of a second when the engine turned over ... then the Corporal running out screaming at us. Totally worth it!
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Ruger

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5570
Alas, yes. Oh, that fraction of a second when the engine turned over ... then the Corporal running out screaming at us. Totally worth it!

Sounds like that one open house at the Air Force base in my old home town when some idiot kids started pushing buttons in the cockpit of (IIRC) a C-5 Galaxy cargo plane...and began dumping fuel. Next thing we know, military personnel running up both ends of the plane yelling at the top of their voices for everyone to get off the plane.

Think about 20 or 30 people were offloaded in about 30 or 45 seconds.

Ruger
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." - Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall...Stand with me." - The Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Doctor Who

Orin J.

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2785
  • I am to feared! Aw, come on guys...
Alas, yes. Oh, that fraction of a second when the engine turned over ... then the Corporal running out screaming at us. Totally worth it!

Sir, you have my admiration and contempt in equal measures.  :bow:
The Grey Death Legion? Dead? Gotcha, wake me when it's back.....
--------------------------
Every once in a while things make sense.


Don't let these moments alarm you. They pass.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
And now with The Chieftain's videos on how to start most of these tanks...imagine the shenanigans you could have gotten into!

I'd like to see the pics, if you want to upload them to imgur as a set perhaps - or somewhere else. 
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Garrand

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 662
  • "Nicht kleckern, klotzen!"
Trivia note: the reason M24s were used in Battle of the Bulge instead of actual Shermans was because it was filmed on location in Spain. Those are Spanish M24s (& Spanish M47s for that matter). The production crew "hired" the Spanish army as stand-ins. Same thing with Patton.

I got to crawl around inside an M3 Grant a couple years ago (there's an armor restoration company -- MilSpec -- several miles down from where I live). It is VERY cramped inside & I wonder how you'd cram 6 or 7 guys in these things. I'm only 5'6: & I felt a little clausterphobic...

Damon.
Book Blog: bookslikedust.blogspot.com
Minis Blog: minislikedust.blogspot.com

Matti

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5085
  • In Rory we trust
And now with The Chieftain's videos on how to start most of these tanks...imagine the shenanigans you could have gotten into!
Staff should disconnect cables from batteries and remove hand cranks
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

HobbesHurlbut

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3089
  • Live Free or Die Hard
Staff should disconnect cables from batteries and remove hand cranks
to be honest, I'm surprised they didn't take those steps when putting vehicles on displays.
Clan Blood Spirit - So Bad Ass as to require Orbital Bombardments to wipe us out....it is the only way to be sure!

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
Sometimes you need to move exhibits around for various reasons - renovations, cleaning, new vehicles, etc.  Some of them are even kept in running order for demonstrations; as for having the battery systems intact, well...who knows what they were going to be doing with that vehicle after the museum closed.  Maybe it was getting prepped for something.

And it's not like tank batteries are anything on the scale of your car battery either.  Modern tanks with modern batteries are still weighing in at 40 kilos...older machines with older hardware?  Yeah.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Matti

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5085
  • In Rory we trust
And it's not like tank batteries are anything on the scale of your car battery either.  Modern tanks with modern batteries are still weighing in at 40 kilos...older machines with older hardware?  Yeah.
Are cable connections different too? Are those welded to batteries or something and can't be disconnected without cutting tools?
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25632
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Something new in vehicle armour:

https://phys.org/news/2019-06-metal-foam-caliber-rounds-steel.html?fbclid=IwAR36Hir9TLAAd4E0IyXQcN570_QrJwAts96qCBhAcWbm5HjXYhKpyzN-lq8

Okay, it's not bi-phase carbide, but interesting nonetheless. What impressed me is the considerable room for further optimisation.

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40820
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Very interesting. I like how it seems like it'll have a great many functions beyond combat armor.

I'm curious as to which properties of the spheres and which properties of the matrix affect the performance of the plating as a whole. Something tells me that team just gained themselves some serious job security, and a mandate to play with almost every material imaginable to see what works.

How long until they try diamond...? ;)
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12023
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Diamond would have to wait till they can make it in the shapes and quantities needed. Same issues facing graphene technologies.

But I'd be curious whether using say, a titanium matrix would give you even more strength and weight reduction.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
re: job security, I'd call that a big damn yes.

Biggest question I have is how BULKY the stuff is.  What's the density like, and how thick would we be talking for vehicle plate?  It mentions plate "less than an inch" being used to stop machine gun fire up close, but how much lighter and thicker is it compared to a similar plate of steel able to do the same thing?

I'm mostly just wondering how many layers you'd need to sandwich together to get a tank's protection, and how bulky that armor would be. 
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25632
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
re: job security, I'd call that a big damn yes.

Biggest question I have is how BULKY the stuff is.  What's the density like, and how thick would we be talking for vehicle plate?  It mentions plate "less than an inch" being used to stop machine gun fire up close, but how much lighter and thicker is it compared to a similar plate of steel able to do the same thing?


From the article, half the weight for similar or better protection.  Probably takes up an additional 14 critical slots ;)

I was impressed by the superior rad shielding.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
From the article, half the weight for similar or better protection.  Probably takes up an additional 14 critical slots ;)

I was impressed by the superior rad shielding.
I suppose the shielding makes some sense, if there's something to be said for surfaces - the inner spheres are all hollow, so perhaps photons are bouncing off the boundary layers that exist between the voids and solid metal that aren't in a homogenous piece of metal? 
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25632
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
May be a scattering effect.

Plus, lighter substances absorb neutrons better than heavier ones, typically*. So you could possibly fill the spheres with particular mixes to maximise that, and get some thermal ablation happening too.

Yup, bet they're drooling at the options to optimise.

* Why aerogels are so useful in two-stage physics packages

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
Plus, lighter substances absorb neutrons better than heavier ones, typically*.
Wasn't that why the BMPs had gas tanks in the rear doors, as a sort of antiradiation protection?  Or was that accidental?

Steam voids slow neutrons for capture and fission, and "solid" water keeps them fast, right?  It's this doubly-backwards thing I can't ever remember properly.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40820
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
I'm curious about a sample that goes for extremes. High hardness steel(or maybe even tungsten) spheres, aerogel in the voids, and titanium or aluminum as the containing matrix.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25632
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
No, I think it was a space-saving thing. Having recently been next to one, damn they're small inside!

And yes, neutron moderation was an art until sufficiently powerful computation became available. We could have lost Chicago, and that would have been a Bad Thing. See also "Demon Core".
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
No, I think it was a space-saving thing. Having recently been next to one, damn they're small inside!

And yes, neutron moderation was an art until sufficiently powerful computation became available. We could have lost Chicago, and that would have been a Bad Thing. See also "Demon Core".
http://diary-of-distant-suns.wikidot.com/film

Which I still thank you for.  Imagine a setting where everyone was So Sure it'd work they went large to begin with and hadn't run into the xenon poisoning effect.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
Keeping on topic, though I can't find a picture of the real thing, a Japanese NBC recon vehicle fitted with a neutron shield to deal with hot environments.

https://hlj.com/media/catalog/product/cache/image/700x700/e9c3970ab036de70892d86c6d221abfe/p/i/pitg-04s.jpg
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37307
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
*snip*
Steam voids slow neutrons for capture and fission, and "solid" water keeps them fast, right?  It's this doubly-backwards thing I can't ever remember properly.
Uh, no... the denser the light nuclei, the more thermal ("slow") neutrons you get.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
See prior: "never remember" - and that's why I don't get to touch the big board. :D

Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37307
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Heh... that's exactly why I posted... you admitted you weren't sure, so I just wanted to introduce some clarity... :)

Euphonium

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1983
  • Look Ma, no Faction!
British Valentine tanks on the bottom of Poole harbour.
They were lost during training for D-Day.
>>>>[You're only jealous because the voices don't talk to you]<<<<

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
Makes you wonder how many of the Sherman DDs are still offshore.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Dave Talley

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3601
Makes you wonder how many of the Sherman DDs are still offshore.

at least 32 off omaha, they dropped a battalion in the first wave and only two made it
Resident Smartass since 1998
“Toe jam in training”

Because while the other Great Houses of the Star League thought they were playing chess, House Cameron was playing Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker the entire time.
JA Baker

beachhead1985

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4075
  • 1st SOG; SLDF. "McKenna's Marauders"
    • Kilroy's Wall
Wasn't that why the BMPs had gas tanks in the rear doors, as a sort of antiradiation protection?  Or was that accidental?

Steam voids slow neutrons for capture and fission, and "solid" water keeps them fast, right?  It's this doubly-backwards thing I can't ever remember properly.

No. What that came down to was that the Russians just needed the damn things to carry more gas in order to keep up with the tanks; the majority of which had recently had an arguably even-more dubious opgrade to their fuel capacity and put simply; "Needs must when the Devil drives."

What could be more dubious than fuel tanks in the rear doors of your cramped, human-filled light tank? (Which is how the Soviets thought of the BMP)

Remember "Wet Storage" for Sherman (and possibly other allied tanks; I confess my ignorance)? Water or antifreeze in a...call it a perforated holding tank around the ammo to keep it going off?

Well the Russians were less impressed with the operational range of their early T-54/55 series tanks. it seems that basic design was quite pushed to it's limits having been developed from T-34, by way of T-44 and the larger engines that moved the tanks fast enough with their re-allocated (proto-MBT arrangement) armour and very adequate 100mm guns simply burned more fuel than had what was an adequate engine in the T-34. Surely outboard fuel tanks offered something of a solution, but with the turret now flush to the rear deck; it limited how many of those tanks you could strap-on from 6 to 2.

In addition; while these were never the fire/death hazard they appear to be; being outside the armour; they could be easily holed/destroyed, knocked off. And the Russians still had plenty of 76(w)-equipped M4A2s to study, which they had not yet scrapped or sold off.

Yes; they made extra fuel tank(s) by filling the ammo wet storage with more diesel fuel. Yes; this totally negates the purpose of wet storage, but it DID give them the range they wanted. And this feature was retained at least as far as T-62, beyond which it may have got in the way of the autoloaders or otherwise been unnecessary/no-longer worth the trouble.

Limited range was a fault found in many post-war tanks and it was solved, or not, in various ways. The Brits had the same issues with Centurion, for instance and tried a universally despised miniature mono-wheeled fuel *trailer* somewhat like a vestigial Crocodile system, but less fun. Over time, these issues were solved by switching to diesel engines, as in the M103; just *better* tank engines or *better* tank designs; IE: those built from the ground up as MBTs and not medium tanks putting on airs.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

 

Register