Author Topic: Armored Fighting Vehicles version M4 - are we going with that? Sure, man.  (Read 199069 times)

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37311
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
My youngest daughter brought this link to my attention when I showed her that picture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLQiUe3HMRs

I thought it was pretty amusing overall...  ^-^

DoctorMonkey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2583
  • user briefly known as Khan of Clan Sex Panther
My youngest daughter brought this link to my attention when I showed her that picture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLQiUe3HMRs

I thought it was pretty amusing overall...  ^-^
3


£500 for a tank full of diesel!
Avatar stollen from spacebattles.com motivational posters thread

ChanMan: "Capellan Ingenuity: The ability to lose battles to Davion forces in new and implausible ways"

Matti

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5085
  • In Rory we trust
My youngest daughter brought this link to my attention when I showed her that picture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLQiUe3HMRs

I thought it was pretty amusing overall...  ^-^
Did at the end, tank scrape oncoming car? I heard something and camera shook a bit.
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37311
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Not that I noticed...

I am Belch II

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10153
  • It's a gator with a nuke, whats the problem.
WIth the incredible price of gas in the UK, Im sure that will not be making money off that ride.
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25802
  • It's just my goth phase
I wanted to find a picture of the Caernarvon (AKA that tank that Americans can never pronounce correctly), which was a developmental variant of the British Conqueror heavy tank.

Unfortunately, it seems impossible to find pictures that aren't from World of Tanks or War Thunder.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
Off the top of my head, there's this:

Problem is, they only built 22 of the things that apparently were just used for development research, and very likely either had the turrets swapped to Conquerors and eventually sent to the BAOR or were scrapped.  Good luck finding more info, though, it seems not even Bovington or Kubinka have one floating around.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

beachhead1985

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4075
  • 1st SOG; SLDF. "McKenna's Marauders"
    • Kilroy's Wall
Off the top of my head, there's this:

Problem is, they only built 22 of the things that apparently were just used for development research, and very likely either had the turrets swapped to Conquerors and eventually sent to the BAOR or were scrapped.  Good luck finding more info, though, it seems not even Bovington or Kubinka have one floating around.

My Conqueror book states that all the Caernarvons were converted to Conquerors or ARVs
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
The former's a turret swap (though the reverse makes me giggle, Conq turrets on Centurion hulls) while the latter's a bit more involved, but still quite doable considering the manufacturing timeline.  Figured they'd been swapped back, and well...in all fairness, is there that much of a diff in the Caerny than looking at the Conq and Cent separately?

I don't see data on the Conqueror's turret ring diameter, but the Centurion is supposed to be 1880mm - which, amusingly, matches the M47 Patton.  Anyone want to consider the L7 105mm on an early Patton series?
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

beachhead1985

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4075
  • 1st SOG; SLDF. "McKenna's Marauders"
    • Kilroy's Wall
The former's a turret swap (though the reverse makes me giggle, Conq turrets on Centurion hulls) while the latter's a bit more involved, but still quite doable considering the manufacturing timeline.  Figured they'd been swapped back, and well...in all fairness, is there that much of a diff in the Caerny than looking at the Conq and Cent separately?

I don't see data on the Conqueror's turret ring diameter, but the Centurion is supposed to be 1880mm - which, amusingly, matches the M47 Patton.  Anyone want to consider the L7 105mm on an early Patton series?

They have to fit on the same gauge of railcars ;)

But I think later on they did fit 105s to some M47s...yeah lots of experiments; Iranian new turret version of the Spanish M47E2 with RH-105 main gun.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
To be fair the Israelis put sawedoff 105mm F1s on their Shermans, so it's less a case of "can" you do it and more a case of "will" than anything else.

Also shows that even old tanks can still function as TDs with a modern gun, some decent guidance, and good ammo.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

beachhead1985

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4075
  • 1st SOG; SLDF. "McKenna's Marauders"
    • Kilroy's Wall
To be fair the Israelis put sawedoff 105mm F1s on their Shermans, so it's less a case of "can" you do it and more a case of "will" than anything else.

Also shows that even old tanks can still function as TDs with a modern gun, some decent guidance, and good ammo.

Heck yeah! I love the M51s!
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
I suppose the AMX-30 would count more in line with a tank destroyer than a full-up tank, considering the design decisions made in the era.  Top tier gun, make it fast, and make it light since armor's not really worth it (in 1960) against modern antitank rounds.  Even something 20 tons heavier, like the Pattons, were still vulnerable even on the bow to heavy duty HEAT sounds, since this was before the development of composite armor and ERA options.  So they built a 36 ton tank with only a couple inches of armor, though given decent slope.



Now, I've always liked the thing, and I've been reading up on all the modernization it can do - and something struck me as a terribly wonderful idea, or perhaps a wonderfully terrible one.  The original 30s were designed with a 680hp engine, while the AMX-30E upgraded by the Spanish went with an 850hp engine in the same hull, and a transmission that can take a throughput up of to 1500.

I did a little digging, and the modern MTU engines that were swapped in actually make that level of horsepower now.  While they're in use in small numbers in a few countries, I wonder just how far you could really push that engine.  Maybe even be nice to the transmission and only go for 12-1300hp in it, just to get an exceptionally fast tank that still has good fuel economy.  At a power-weight ratio of 32.8hp/ton, just what kind of nutty speeds could you be looking at for a fast "raider" tank?
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37311
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Sure, but can the running gear take the speed?

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25635
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Question for trackheads - the commander's cupola (mini turret, almost) on the M60.

Worth it? Not worth the extra height/expense? Reliable?

I'm suspecting no, yes, no - otherwise we'd not see a pintle mount on the Abrams.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

HobbesHurlbut

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3089
  • Live Free or Die Hard
Question for trackheads - the commander's cupola (mini turret, almost) on the M60.

Worth it? Not worth the extra height/expense? Reliable?

I'm suspecting no, yes, no - otherwise we'd not see a pintle mount on the Abrams.
Well in War Thunder, it's a very popular weak spot to shoot.
Clan Blood Spirit - So Bad Ass as to require Orbital Bombardments to wipe us out....it is the only way to be sure!

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5000
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
The M48 had the same cupola, and the Israelis found out much to their dismay that a glancing hit off of pretty much anywhere on the turret would cause the cupola to shear off - usually decapitating the commander in the process.


They went on to develop this pintle mount cupola, which actually got retrofitted onto National Guard M48s.



M60s kept the deathtrap cupola for who knows what reasons.
« Last Edit: 18 July 2019, 18:30:17 by Fat Guy »
I have spoken.


ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13233
AMX has something similar, and while it does stick up quite a bit it also makes the best view it can give the TC with a LOT of viewing prisms compared to the Israeli modification.  And the Abrams does have the same, lifted high enough off of the top of the turret to see over the gunner's doghouse, though it doesn't quite show up AS noticeably compared to the rest of the turret.  I think part of that is because of that long, shallow slope on the front of the turret.

This picture is HUGE

If you follow from the mantlet back, and assume a flatter roof, then the commander's cupola would stick out pretty hard from there.  As it is, it just blends into the roofline, so it doesn't seem to stick up as much.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9947
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
I heart Freeimages is what I'm seeing...

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
Sure, but can the running gear take the speed?

I kinda doubt it, Track life would suffer horribly (one of the many reasons the Abrams has a speed governor on it).  and when you consider that track life isn't exactly spectacular compared to rubber donuts filled with air, you'd be setting up for lots and lots of 'out of action due to maintenance issues and parts breakage'.

not to mention what it would do to roads and terrain at those theoretical speeds.

right before the tracks get thrown.

Now, if you could find some genius mechanical engineers who can build you track designs that could TAKE that kind of speed...(and will fit on the chassis, and support the weight...)
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

CDAT

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 301
Question for trackheads - the commander's cupola (mini turret, almost) on the M60.

Worth it? Not worth the extra height/expense? Reliable?

I'm suspecting no, yes, no - otherwise we'd not see a pintle mount on the Abrams.

I never served on the M60's, but from talking with the guys who had been on them, they never had anything good to say about them. Now I did not ask a lot a questions about it more just general stuff. From what I remember them talking about they were maintenance nightmares, and did not really add anything to the tank that could not be done on the M1 except reload the .50 (but the M85 was even a bigger nightmare) if it did not jam before it used up its onboard ammo.

beachhead1985

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4075
  • 1st SOG; SLDF. "McKenna's Marauders"
    • Kilroy's Wall
I never served on the M60's, but from talking with the guys who had been on them, they never had anything good to say about them. Now I did not ask a lot a questions about it more just general stuff. From what I remember them talking about they were maintenance nightmares, and did not really add anything to the tank that could not be done on the M1 except reload the .50 (but the M85 was even a bigger nightmare) if it did not jam before it used up its onboard ammo.

Are the 1-metre turrets any good?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac-Gage_1_metre_turret
« Last Edit: 19 July 2019, 23:24:51 by beachhead1985 »
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Garrand

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 662
  • "Nicht kleckern, klotzen!"
IIRC the mini-turret commander's cupola on the M48 only had enough room for 100rds of .50CAL ammo, & was a real PitA to reload. The M60 alleviated some of these issues, but created new ones with the M85 .50CAL. The idea was to have a fully enclosed commander's cupola where the .50 could be fired & reloaded under armor & under seal for an NBC environment. The M1 can still be fired under armor, but cannot be reloaded under armor obviously.

Damon.
Book Blog: bookslikedust.blogspot.com
Minis Blog: minislikedust.blogspot.com

CDAT

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 301
Are the 1-metre turrets any good?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac-Gage_1_metre_turret

If it is the same as what is on the ASG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1117_Armored_Security_Vehicle) it is after my time in tanks, but my brother used them and has nothing negative to say about them, except that they are not a tank.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25802
  • It's just my goth phase
Edit: How the heck did I manage to post something that was supposed to go in the anime thread here?
« Last Edit: 27 July 2019, 10:32:19 by MoneyLovinOgre4Hire »
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Today, on weird shit I stumbled across

AMX-30 Javelot

An early US-French attempt at a self-propelled SAM vehicle, armed with 64 unguided 40mm rockets


Luciora

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5802
Grid square craterer / misser?

Today, on weird shit I stumbled across

AMX-30 Javelot

An early US-French attempt at a self-propelled SAM vehicle, armed with 64 unguided 40mm rockets



marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
I never served on the M60's, but from talking with the guys who had been on them, they never had anything good to say about them. Now I did not ask a lot a questions about it more just general stuff. From what I remember them talking about they were maintenance nightmares, and did not really add anything to the tank that could not be done on the M1 except reload the .50 (but the M85 was even a bigger nightmare) if it did not jam before it used up its onboard ammo.

Could be worse, could be the Starship turret :p
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Grid square craterer / misser?
Anti-air

Apparently it was decent, especially with proximity fuzed rockets

Luciora

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5802
I overlooked the SAM designation, sorry.  Saw this first thing on waking up.

Anti-air

Apparently it was decent, especially with proximity fuzed rockets