Mech design decisions that make no sense

[CrossfirePilot]

I can just see doing a leg ammo dump.  Shaking it off like you're walking through a dog park and stepped wrong.

[Sartris]

i like to think of it as a flume like a snowblower that pitches the ammo in an arc behind the mech

but hold up. if the leg takes any hit during the turn when it's dumping the ammo, it blows, right? the leg doesn't have a separate rear facing to cover the procedure

[The_Caveman]

the "reality" of the BTU might very well make leg ammo popping off more rare than in the board game. headcanons are fun and all but dice make my mechs explode.

Fiction, to me, is the only thing that matters. What you get at the table as a result of that fiction is what you get. If you want a game that is all strategy and no context, go play chess.

Yeah . . . to be honest, I do not have a problem with ammo in the legs for the simple reason I do not want to be kicked.

Yep. A real MechWarrior isn't going to be rushing into short-range combat just to get a quick kill because a real MechWarrior doesn't want to be killed (solahma Clanners notwithstanding). You'd stay as far as possible out of your enemies' effective range for as long as possible and take shots as you had them, or only attack when the enemy wasn't ready to fight. That doesn't happen at the table because people don't want to spend 50 turns maneuvering for position or futz with double-blind rules.

[The_Caveman]

i like to think of it as a flume like a snowblower that pitches the ammo in an arc behind the mech

but hold up. if the leg takes any hit during the turn when it's dumping the ammo, it blows, right? the leg doesn't have a separate rear facing to cover the procedure

I believe it's weapon hits in the rear arc, not damage to the rear armor that counts.

[Sartris]

Fiction, to me, is the only thing that matters. What you get at the table as a result of that fiction is what you get. If you want a game that is all strategy and no context, go play chess.

the universe provides a context and helps tell a story surrounding the game - you know, the essential component that allows the fiction to exist. how the ammo is positioned in the leg is irrelevant to that context. if you have fun thinking about it cool, but the fluff without the game is body without a skeleton.

mechs are designed through the game rules - fluff considerations might affect the final design (that still conforms to the rules), but don't have any real, tangible bearing unless you impose arbitrary quirks. Leg ammo is asking for trouble under that paradigm.

[Weirdo]

i like to think of it as a flume like a snowblower that pitches the ammo in an arc behind the mech

but hold up. if the leg takes any hit during the turn when it's dumping the ammo, it blows, right? the leg doesn't have a separate rear facing to cover the procedure

We're told that the ammo's location doesn't matter. All ammo dump chutes feed through the rear torso, so only hits to rear torso armor will light things off, regardless of where the ammo is actually stored.

[Scotty]

We're told that the ammo's location doesn't matter. All ammo dump chutes feed through the rear torso, so only hits to rear torso armor will light things off, regardless of where the ammo is actually stored.

So does that make it the only way (in Total Warfare) to suffer internal damage on a non-torso location that still has armor?

Interesting....

[Weirdo]

You might be right. Every other armor-bypassing situation I can think of either only does crits, or requires TacOps.  Of course, there's always the stuff I can't think of...

[Kit deSummersville]

So does that make it the only way (in Total Warfare) to suffer internal damage on a non-torso location that still has armor?

Interesting....

There's always ammo explosions due to heat.

[The_Caveman]

you know, the essential component that allows the fiction to exist

It's funny. To me the game isn't even an essential component. I think it's been about 15 years since I've played BattleTech on a table with miniatures, and I only occasionally pop open MegaMek to test something out. I had more fun building and painting the minis than using them.

I don't even think it's a very good game. But it's a fantastic universe. The fiction is what drew me in and kindled a nearly 25-year love affair. Without it I probably would have played the game once, said "this sucks" and moved on to something else.

[Orin J.]

We're told that the ammo's location doesn't matter. All ammo dump chutes feed through the rear torso, so only hits to rear torso armor will light things off, regardless of where the ammo is actually stored.

considering some 'mech designs that's pretty impressive, and probably the most blatant violation of physics in the game.

The guys designing battlemech ammo feeds would probably be crazier than everyone here put together. i don't know if i should be afraid of them or wish to meet 'em!

personally, i always thought the Scarabus packing a hatchet on it's 30-ton frame with no JJs was absurd. then they released the Mjolir.........

[Greatclub]

personally, i always thought the Scarabus packing a hatchet on it's 30-ton frame with no JJs was absurd. then they released the Mjolir.........

Scarabus is fast enough to use the hatchet anyway, 10/15 covers a multitude of sins. I have more of a beef with the 4/6/4 Hatchetman reaching its target without crippling movement mods

[Hptm. Streiger]

Scarabus is fast enough to use the hatchet anyway, 10/15 covers a multitude of sins. I have more of a beef with the 4/6/4 Hatchetman reaching its target without crippling movement mods

Well the best thing that could happen to a Scarabus is a critical hit on the hatchet - did happen and then the small boy killed a Timber Wolf.

I don't even think it's a very good game. But it's a fantastic universe. The fiction is what drew me in and kindled a nearly 25-year love affair. Without it I probably would have played the game once, said "this sucks" and moved on to something else.

Amen to that

[massey]

Sometimes a weapon is in the "legs" and what it really means is it's mounted on the hip.  If a mech has ammo in the legs, maybe we could imagine that it's got an armored housing of some kind on the outside of the hip, kind of like it's wearing a holster.  That part doesn't have to move with the rest of the leg.  It could basically be an extension of the torso, but positioning wise it still counts as part of the leg.

Advantages could be faster reloading times, an experimental partial-CASE system (theoretically the ammo is supposed to explode outward, leaving the mech intact, but maybe the damn thing doesn't work right), extra space in an already cramped design, etc.  I could see why somebody would try it.

[grimlock1]

Scarabus is fast enough to use the hatchet anyway, 10/15 covers a multitude of sins. I have more of a beef with the 4/6/4 Hatchetman reaching its target without crippling movement mods

The Hatchetman and the Axman combined to give melee mechs a bad taste in my mouth for a long time.  The "its designed to fight in cities, so 4/6/4 is plenty," never made sense to me.  You need more MP in a city than you do on say the standard map or a field with a mix of open and cluttered terrain.  Yes you can always jump around the corner.  That's great for "I need to get my thinly armored tuchas out of the line of fire," but not so good on the attach.  Running on paved roads means PSRs, so you want to walk in turns where you attack, but cities are so cluttered that you spend a lot of MP moving AROUND the buildings.
All that combines to suggest that a city fighter wants to be like 6/9/4, minimum, and bricked out. 

[Orin J.]

The Hatchetman and the Axman combined to give melee mechs a bad taste in my mouth for a long time.  The "its designed to fight in cities, so 4/6/4 is plenty," never made sense to me.  You need more MP in a city than you do on say the standard map or a field with a mix of open and cluttered terrain.  Yes you can always jump around the corner.  That's great for "I need to get my thinly armored tuchas out of the line of fire," but not so good on the attach.  Running on paved roads means PSRs, so you want to walk in turns where you attack, but cities are so cluttered that you spend a lot of MP moving AROUND the buildings.
All that combines to suggest that a city fighter wants to be like 6/9/4, minimum, and bricked out.

i've never have a problem with those 'mechs, they're ambushers. they don't need to be fast, they need to let the other city forces funnel enemies into position. much like an SRM carrier, they shouldn't be caught before it's too late. the Scarabus.....it's not good for that. what, is it supposed to play dennis the menace and assume every target has bigger fish to fry than splattering it for trying to land a lucky headshot?

[The_Caveman]

Running on paved roads means PSRs, so you want to walk in turns where you attack, but cities are so cluttered that you spend a lot of MP moving AROUND the buildings.

This just points to a severe problem with the way pavement and buildings are handled in the rules. Something is badly wrong when a Locust has an easier time navigating a city on foot than an UrbanMech.

There needs to be a "surefooted" quirk or the like that negates PSRs for running on pavement or through light/medium building hexes.

[Alsadius]

This just points to a severe problem with the way pavement and buildings are handled in the rules. Something is badly wrong when a Locust has an easier time navigating a city on foot than an UrbanMech.

There needs to be a "surefooted" quirk or the like that negates PSRs for running on pavement or through light/medium building hexes.

Ooh, good call. I'm on board with this.

[dgorsman]

City fighting really needs to be played as double-blind.  Unless you have active probes, or C3, there's no way of knowing what's around that corner.  You're not going to be sprinting around corners lest there's something bigger and nastier blocking the street.

[Easy]

cleanup

[Easy]

cleanup

[SCC]

The Celerity, a Savanah Master is cheaper by a factor of at least 50.

Sub-30 ton 'Mechs in general.

Anytime a designs fluff is that another similar design was having production problems and rather then fix the problems the first design was having, the solution is to produce a new design, which of these is going to be cheaper and quicker to do, do you think?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Well, depending on the problem, it really might be faster and cheaper to build a new mech.

[The_Caveman]

Anytime a designs fluff is that another similar design was having production problems and rather then fix the problems the first design was having, the solution is to produce a new design, which of these is going to be cheaper and quicker to do, do you think?

This can work if the second design comes from a competing firm, like the Stinger and Wasp. Manufacturer "A" can't make good on the contract requirements in a reasonable timeframe, so manufacturer "B" (who might have been runner-up for the original bid) is contracted to put its similar product into production as an insurance policy. Then down the line the army decides it likes both (or the political leadership can't afford to pull the plug on one of them and kill jobs).

Of course, for some reason nobody ever pays attention to the dates and the competing design will show up generations after the problem design debuted...

[dgorsman]

Not all solutions are economically feasible.  And not all engineering problems have solutions.

One thing that comes to mind is armored recovery vehicles.  Every time a new, heavier tank comes out the existing recovery vehicles have problems handling them.  Yes, you could remanufacture the old vehicles with better power plant etc.  But the better solution is to create a new one based on the new tank chassis.

[SCC]

Well, depending on the problem, it really might be faster and cheaper to build a new mech.

This suggests that the problem is intrinsic to the design or the manufacturer who holds some key intellectual property, either of which should see the design withdrawn from service.

[Orin J.]

This suggests that the problem is intrinsic to the design or the manufacturer who holds some key intellectual property, either of which should see the design withdrawn from service.

and? "should" and "does" don't intersect as often as they should, and both circumstances are common enough.

[SCC]

and? "should" and "does" don't intersect as often as they should, and both circumstances are common enough.

Yeah should have seen that coming, after all Quicksell is somehow still in business

[BloodRose]

Going back to the original topic, how about the Shadowhawk 2D? Its a close combat Mech that drops most of its armour for a modest increase in short range firepower, leaving it vulnerable in its intended role.

[Hptm. Streiger]

Going back to the original topic, how about the Shadowhawk 2D? Its a close combat Mech that drops most of its armour for a modest increase in short range firepower, leaving it vulnerable in its intended role.

Don't think that the 2D is a "fighter" - think of it as a Hunter Killer.... armor is enough to take some hits from Wasp and can deal twice the damage in reverse.
of course, it would have been better to swap the LRM5 for those additional guns or keep the heat sinks at 12.

For close combat, Davies might use the Enforcer and keep the 2D to scare lights away that want to attack the tin rear of that brawler