Mech design decisions that make no sense

[(SMD)MadCow]

I'd split the difference and get 2 medium lasers and 2 more tons of LRM ammo.

[The_Caveman]

The one argument I can see for the SRM launcher is Frag SRMs, because the major threat to a lance of missile support 'Mechs should be infantry ambush. The SRM is at least useful in that regard, whereas lasers only help against threats you should be running away from to get outside LRM minimum range.

[truetanker]

I'd load up on Infernos to disturb my enemies from pursuing me too closely...

And I'll also would shoot my LRMs ripple style, meaning one per turn u til a number is good then double tap! Unless it's a firemission of Thunder rounds...

TT

[Sir Chaos]

I'd load up on Infernos to disturb my enemies from pursuing me too closely...

And I'll also would shoot my LRMs ripple style, meaning one per turn u til a number is good then double tap! Unless it's a firemission of Thunder rounds...

TT

You have one ton per launcher. You cannot *afford* to take Thunder rounds.

[Atarlost]

The one argument I can see for the SRM launcher is Frag SRMs, because the major threat to a lance of missile support 'Mechs should be infantry ambush. The SRM is at least useful in that regard, whereas lasers only help against threats you should be running away from to get outside LRM minimum range.

Frag SRMs aren't good enough to justify the launcher.  Normal SRMs do damage/5 to infantry and Frag SRMs double that.  That's only 4 damage.  They're a reasonable anti-infantry tool if you're already using SRMs as an anti-mech or anti-vehicle weapon and just have to add a ton of ammo, but if you intend to run from everything but infantry you'd be better served by anything on the burst fire table. 

[The_Caveman]

Frag SRMs aren't good enough to justify the launcher.  Normal SRMs do damage/5 to infantry and Frag SRMs double that.  That's only 4 damage.  They're a reasonable anti-infantry tool if you're already using SRMs as an anti-mech or anti-vehicle weapon and just have to add a ton of ammo, but if you intend to run from everything but infantry you'd be better served by anything on the burst fire table.

That's a problem with a rules change nerfing equipment that had no need to be nerfed. BMR-era Frag SRMs did 4 damage each to infantry which made them a credible deterrent.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That also provided a legitimate reason to chose frag missiles over Infernos besides "for some bizarre reason, I don't want to set this thing on fire."

[truetanker]

You have one ton per launcher. You cannot *afford* to take Thunder rounds.

Your thinking inside the box... If I wanted to only carry a single ton of (3) Thunder rounds and a single standard LRM.... I can lay down 3 turns of standard if I double shoot or ripple fire for 6, and I can still do a fire solution in a minefield if I want one.

TT

[Atarlost]

The thing is, if you're ripple firing you have more launchers than you need which points back to the design making no sense.  You could drop one LRM-20 and only lose a reserve capacity you might use one round in five and have 10 tons to do something else with, or you could have two LRM-15 and enough ammo to fire both of them over a typical engagement and have 3 or 4 tons to play with. 

[truetanker]

I know right?

I have a soft spot for a pair of Archer-2S... adding a Warhammer-6D and a Painback!

Oh good times....

But in reality there should more canon variances than listed.

TT

[Takiro]

Anyone mention TRO3050 Hunchback yet?

[truetanker]

You mean the -5M?

It kinda sucks... but at least we get CASE for it...

TT

[Starfury]

How about the stock Banshee?  Why the Star Leauge didn't follow Steiner's idea for refitting it into the 3S I still never know. Or the Dasher II?  A 360 XL with MASC would have been a better choice then a 400 XL for payload.  As for the Hunchback-5M, that was sloppy work just like the Quickdraw or the 3050 Steinr Stalker. A better version for long range firepower and general trooper status would have been to remove 3 heat sinks, use up 2 tons for a Gauss Rifle and another ton of ammo, switch the remaining AC 20 ammo for another ton of ammo (making 16 shots), and add another medium laser. 

[truetanker]

The Gauss-back was top heavy in canon...

But otherwise was a good idea...

TT

[mmmpi]

How about the stock Banshee?  Why the Star Leauge didn't follow Steiner's idea for refitting it into the 3S I still never know.

The 3S didn't come out until 3026.  (So sayeth Sarna.)

[Sartris]

not existing *is* a good excuse for failing to follow up

The Gauss-back was top heavy in canon...

But otherwise was a good idea...

yeah, it seems like a natural 3048-3052 first gen upgrade. by 3068 they apparently fixed the issue when 5SG was rolled out

[truetanker]

Actually, it's a Draconis 3039 prototype for a new type of Helm Gauss that was captured from FedCom forces... excellent range and damage but poor weight to recoil effect...

I'd say the Gyro wasn't calibrated correctly... since it was a field job and all, jury-rigged.

TT

[Greatclub]

The gladiator omnimech, and the tinfoil protecting the front side torsos relative to every other location.

Maybe they were planning on using elementals are battlefield-replaceable armor? Seems a bit hard on the toads though.

Every other aspect of the mech save cost is great, but I can't forgive the vulnerable side torsos.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

not existing *is* a good excuse for failing to follow up

yeah, it seems like a natural 3048-3052 first gen upgrade. by 3068 they apparently fixed the issue when 5SG was rolled out

The 5SG was a unique design.

[Sartris]

Huh so it is. Shame as it’s a really good design

[massey]

You mean the -5M?

It kinda sucks... but at least we get CASE for it...

TT

I'm willing to give a pass to the 3050 upgrades.  It was brand new technology to the Inner Sphere, and they really didn't know how the stuff worked.  There are a lot of "bad" designs in that book, but it makes sense that they'd have bad designs.

Plus I don't think all the technology was available to every manufacturer.  Just because you get access to CASE doesn't mean you've got access to Endo Steel.  Your company might get a shipment of ER PPCs but that doesn't mean you can get your hands on any Double Heat Sinks.  People made do with what they had, and a lot of times I don't think they understood the performance envelopes (i.e., game stats) of the equipment they were installing.

With the CASE, I imagine that it was sold as a way to save a mech from an ammo explosion.  Miracle technology, of course you'd want it.  The fact that it has appreciable weight, enough to affect what equipment the mech can carry, probably wasn't mentioned.  It takes up a crit slot too, and in real world terms that probably means that the internal space the Hunchback had allocated for ammo (xxx cubic feet) was reduced.  To get back up to 2 tons of ammo, you might have to redesign the entire torso layout.  Design in-universe is probably harder than it is for us, where we can just say "drop the small laser", they don't necessarily have that option.

[truetanker]

I believe it was the armor that got suffered. You want CASE, sure lose half a ton...

Most Pilots wouldn't want to lose a weapon even as simple as a small laser.

TT

[Sartris]

I'm willing to give a pass to the 3050 upgrades.  It was brand new technology to the Inner Sphere, and they really didn't know how the stuff worked.  There are a lot of "bad" designs in that book, but it makes sense that they'd have bad designs.

Plus I don't think all the technology was available to every manufacturer.  Just because you get access to CASE doesn't mean you've got access to Endo Steel.  Your company might get a shipment of ER PPCs but that doesn't mean you can get your hands on any Double Heat Sinks.  People made do with what they had, and a lot of times I don't think they understood the performance envelopes (i.e., game stats) of the equipment they were installing.

With the CASE, I imagine that it was sold as a way to save a mech from an ammo explosion.  Miracle technology, of course you'd want it.  The fact that it has appreciable weight, enough to affect what equipment the mech can carry, probably wasn't mentioned.  It takes up a crit slot too, and in real world terms that probably means that the internal space the Hunchback had allocated for ammo (xxx cubic feet) was reduced.  To get back up to 2 tons of ammo, you might have to redesign the entire torso layout.  Design in-universe is probably harder than it is for us, where we can just say "drop the small laser", they don't necessarily have that option.

i agree, though i would like to see the original 3050 variants pushed up to 3035-3045 and a second run of refined designs between 3048-3055 like we got with the XTROs and TRO prototypes

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I think we basically saw that with the various upgrade designs that popped up in FASA's Record Sheet: Upgrades, TRO: Project Phoenix, and TRO: 3050 Upgrade.  Rather than just do a few bugfixes, manufacturers waited a couple years and released new versions of the mechs that were upgraded with newer tech.

[Sartris]

3056-3062ish, sure but it makes little sense to me to have these weapons systems listed as common (ie available to most everyone)  by 3040-3045 and zero production models debuting before 3047.

the re-intro dates for a lot of helm systems are set in the mid to late 3030s so ~3040 prototype awkwardness (aka the original tro 3050 batch) could easily be pushed forward five to ten years with room for designs far more useful against the initial clan onslaught.

[massey]

3056-3062ish, sure but it makes little sense to me to have these weapons systems listed as common (ie available to most everyone)  by 3040-3045 and zero production models debuting before 3047.

the re-intro dates for a lot of helm systems are set in the mid to late 3030s so ~3040 prototype awkwardness (aka the original tro 3050 batch) could easily be pushed forward five to ten years with room for designs far more useful against the initial clan onslaught.

That's just a relic of real world publication dates, and what is basically an incomplete retcon of tech reintroduction.

Lethal Heritage, the first book in the Clan saga, was published a few months before TRO 2750 and about 7 or 8 months before TRO 3050.  The novel had the Clans hit an Inner Sphere that had recovered zero advanced technology.  Every unit was using standard 3025 tech, because that's all that existed at that time in the real world.  While Star League tech was supposed to be more advanced, nobody had ever published what it was supposed to be able to do.

For several years in real world time, the new tech intro dates were right around 3050.  Experimental tech was shoved into production to meet the Clan onslaught.  Much later, the decision was made to backdate a lot of the tech intro times, so that the process appeared more gradual.  That's why you've got the conflict in when certain pieces of equipment became available.

[Sartris]

yes, i know why it is like it is.

i'm saying finish the retcon and make 3050 IS more playable

[Colt Ward]

yes, i know why it is like it is.

i'm saying finish the retcon and make 3050 IS more playable

Its plenty playable . . . I have a binary vs your battalion & supports.

[Sartris]

[truetanker]

I back of the head slap you both!

I challenge you with a complete Level II Choir! I'm all cybered up and ready to steamroll you over...  >:D

TT