Author Topic: Mech design decisions that make no sense  (Read 145547 times)

Weirdo

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #660 on: 14 May 2019, 08:29:05 »
As I understand, the -2D came about during a particularly dark time for the AFFS, when a berserker mentality had taken hold in many mechwarriors. They demanded to be in close with the enemy NOW, and to hit them with all the firepower NOW, and shut up about armor, survival is very optional.

As for why SRM-2s were used...maybe that's what was available?
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #661 on: 14 May 2019, 08:55:34 »
As for why SRM-2s were used...maybe that's what was available?

Moar infernoes! And I'll light the woods around me on fire! And I still won't worry about the heat!
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The_Caveman

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #662 on: 14 May 2019, 14:50:00 »
Going back to the original topic, how about the Shadowhawk 2D? Its a close combat Mech that drops most of its armour for a modest increase in short range firepower, leaving it vulnerable in its intended role.

Didn't we just spend a couple pages discussing that? Or was that a different thread?
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

Elmoth

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #663 on: 14 May 2019, 15:00:49 »
Yup, we did.

massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #664 on: 14 May 2019, 18:12:52 »
Didn't we just spend a couple pages discussing that? Or was that a different thread?

Hey you know what really sucks?  The King Crab.  How come nobody has mentioned that yet?

RoundTop

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #665 on: 14 May 2019, 18:22:50 »
Hey you know what really sucks?  The King Crab.  How come nobody has mentioned that yet?

Be quiet you.

No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
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Orin J.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #666 on: 15 May 2019, 01:06:34 »
As I understand, the -2D came about during a particularly dark time for the AFFS, when a berserker mentality had taken hold in many mechwarriors. They demanded to be in close with the enemy NOW, and to hit them with all the firepower NOW, and shut up about armor, survival is very optional.

As for why SRM-2s were used...maybe that's what was available?

software issues? might not have had anyone to program a new driver for the other launchers and there's already the 2-racks programmed in....and you've got this bratty mechjock screaming he wants it "now, now now!" so i say screw 'im.
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Caedis Animus

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #667 on: 15 May 2019, 01:08:41 »
software issues? might not have had anyone to program a new driver for the other launchers and there's already the 2-racks programmed in....and you've got this bratty mechjock screaming he wants it "now, now now!" so i say screw 'im.
One would think it'd be a relatively simple matter to simply add two more tubes to the 2-tube and give it a head-mounted 4. But then, considering one of the few silver linings of the Shadow Hawk 2D is a more sane ammunition bin for the SRMs, I'd almost prefer the 2D as presented.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #668 on: 15 May 2019, 04:50:45 »
I didn't get a good look before I had to go to work and my computer decided to reset itself, but I swear I saw a mech with rear-facing pulse lasers mounted in its legs...

Tell me I was just hallucinating that.

Sabelkatten

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #669 on: 15 May 2019, 05:48:25 »
Gunslinger. That mount is arguably the best rear mount in the game.

Apocal

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #670 on: 15 May 2019, 06:02:11 »
Gunslinger. That mount is arguably the best rear mount in the game.

Yeah, I found it and at the same time another, rear weapons-minded, player who explained that when you twist to bring the forward guns to bear, you take the rear weapons out-of-arc, so it actually makes a lot of sense to mount rear-facing weapons in the legs so they'll always the rear cone.

Sir Chaos

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #671 on: 15 May 2019, 06:09:20 »
As I understand, the -2D came about during a particularly dark time for the AFFS, when a berserker mentality had taken hold in many mechwarriors. They demanded to be in close with the enemy NOW, and to hit them with all the firepower NOW, and shut up about armor, survival is very optional.

As for why SRM-2s were used...maybe that's what was available?

Mechs are freaking expensive and nearly unreplacable, especially in a particularly dark time.

For people with that sort of attitude, there´s always plenty of open spots among the infantry.
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Weirdo

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #672 on: 15 May 2019, 06:41:40 »
Not when those folks are nobility, or sons/daughters/other relations/good friends of such. And the Davions are notable for their shadowy cabal of mechwarrior nobles, those guys will never see the inside of an infantry barracks for as long as they or their thousands of compatriots live.

You forget, this is Battletech. Bloodline and influence trumps common sense and pragmatism EVERY time, even in the less overtly feudal nations.
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Elmoth

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #673 on: 15 May 2019, 07:25:59 »
You forget, this is Battletech. Bloodline and influence trumps common sense and pragmatism EVERY time, even in the less overtly feudal nations.
I present the last century worth of Davions as proof.

grimlock1

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #674 on: 15 May 2019, 13:18:05 »
I've created a poll thread over in the customs area to see how often rear mounted weapons crop up over there. 
Devs proceed with caution. This is fan-build territory but if you just ready the results, you should be safe.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=65357.0;viewresults
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #675 on: 15 May 2019, 14:13:55 »
Mechs are freaking expensive and nearly unreplacable, especially in a particularly dark time.

Not during the early parts of the 1st Succession War, which is when the -2D was developed.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #676 on: 15 May 2019, 14:22:13 »
Well . . . when the Kuritans are rolling over everything you have and massacring the folks on Kentares . . . its about getting replacements in time.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #677 on: 15 May 2019, 16:20:55 »
Well . . . when the Kuritans are rolling over everything you have and massacring the folks on Kentares . . . its about getting replacements in time.

And the -2D was a field refit kit for existing SHDs.  Delivery of new machines was not in any way affected by this.

Greatclub

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #678 on: 15 May 2019, 20:10:17 »
The LRM 5 on the hornet.

Long range weapon? Good. Token long range weapon when you're already sucking for speed and other weaponry? Maybe not so good.

It's like the worlds lightest albatross, without the sheer options that made the albatross good.

I'll take equal BV in valkyrie and be able to jump a worthwhile distance to boot.

CrossfirePilot

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #679 on: 15 May 2019, 20:15:32 »
3025
2 tons of SRM ammo on the Dervish (when is the next time you are going to be in a 50 turn battle, or even a 25 turn battle?)

1 Ton of ammo for the Enforcer.  Dang it seems about the time where I really get things dialed in, I am out of boom. And the thing is I always hold my shots unless I have 8s or better.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #680 on: 15 May 2019, 21:46:36 »
3025
2 tons of SRM ammo on the Dervish (when is the next time you are going to be in a 50 turn battle, or even a 25 turn battle?)

1 Ton of ammo for the Enforcer.  Dang it seems about the time where I really get things dialed in, I am out of boom. And the thing is I always hold my shots unless I have 8s or better.

The excess SRM ammo isn't nearly as problematic as the limited LRM ammo. An LRM boat should not be in a position of having to hold its shots. You want to be able to rain missiles at anything that can be hit on a 12 or less.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

Sir Chaos

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #681 on: 16 May 2019, 02:53:47 »
And the -2D was a field refit kit for existing SHDs.  Delivery of new machines was not in any way affected by this.

I can just see that logic... "The Dracs are rolling over our defenses, we´re desperately short on machines... oh, I know the solution: Let´s make our existing machines more vulnerable!"
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #682 on: 16 May 2019, 03:09:36 »
I don't think the original reason for the SHD-2D is that unreasonable. I mean, it's not a good idea, but I can see it happening in the heat of war.

But they kept doing it afterwards. The 2D remained a davion standard even after the berserker rage went away. House Davion even did it again during the 3050s, buying brand new shadow hawks from the Canopeans to refit to the 2D2 standard (This comes from the original printing of TRO 3050). Whatever their initial reasoning, somewhere along the way House Davion decided "yeah, this is a thing we need to keep doing".

Though in that case they managed to at least take off slightly less armor...
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #683 on: 16 May 2019, 08:56:20 »
3025
2 tons of SRM ammo on the Dervish (when is the next time you are going to be in a 50 turn battle, or even a 25 turn battle?)


It allows you to have regular and extra crispy.
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massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #684 on: 16 May 2019, 10:05:08 »
It allows you to have regular and extra crispy.

Yeah, you can carry normal SRM ammo and infernos.  Not a terrible idea.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #685 on: 16 May 2019, 10:26:41 »
Yeah, you can carry normal SRM ammo and infernos.  Not a terrible idea.
Actually, it is a pretty bad idea. The Dervish is poorly-armored and has awful heat dissipation. If you cannot take 2 engine hits (+10 heat) and not build up heat by moving, you've NO business near inferno ammunition, IMO.

If I see a Dervish coming at me, I won't even bother wasting laser fire on it if I have an SRM-equipped unit on my side. Pump that thing full of infernos and watch it stumble around until it blows up on its own. Now that won't happen every game, but if I know it has an inferno bin, that's going to be the play.
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massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #686 on: 16 May 2019, 10:36:43 »
The excess SRM ammo isn't nearly as problematic as the limited LRM ammo. An LRM boat should not be in a position of having to hold its shots. You want to be able to rain missiles at anything that can be hit on a 12 or less.

We tend to design mechs for maximum butt-whoop.  We want powerful and efficient designs that cram as much stuff into the mech as possible.  We also like mechs to have an easy to see, defined role.  This means that jack-of-all-trade mechs like the Shadow Hawk and Dervish end up being criticized.

12 shots per launcher is usually considered enough for LRMs.  I don't think it's a big problem for the Dervish.  It's not the 12 shots per launcher from dual LRM-20s that the Archer has, but it's not supposed to be an Archer.  The Dervish is extremely mobile for its time, has decent long range firepower, and decent short range firepower.  A force of Dervishes would be a cross between fast cavalry and fire support.

Under old inferno rules (6 heat/turn for 3 turns per missile), I see the Dervish as being pretty damn tough.  Put it up against a Griffin, Rifleman, or Wolverine (maybe even
a Warhammer or Marauder).  The Dervish would close to short range, unload with inferno missiles until the enemy was cooking for a few minutes, then back off and play the range game until your LRMs run dry.  By that point, you've probably opened up at least one location.  Then you close again and fire normal SRMs, tossing in a couple infernos every now and then just to keep the heat up.

It's also the kind of thing that could wreck columns of vehicles.  Immobilize them with LRMs and then set the hex on fire with your burny SRMs.

massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #687 on: 16 May 2019, 10:42:35 »
Actually, it is a pretty bad idea. The Dervish is poorly-armored and has awful heat dissipation. If you cannot take 2 engine hits (+10 heat) and not build up heat by moving, you've NO business near inferno ammunition, IMO.

If I see a Dervish coming at me, I won't even bother wasting laser fire on it if I have an SRM-equipped unit on my side. Pump that thing full of infernos and watch it stumble around until it blows up on its own. Now that won't happen every game, but if I know it has an inferno bin, that's going to be the play.

It's a 3025 mech.  They all run hot.  As a bracket firer, it's fairly cool.  If you've already got two engine hits on me, you might as well finish me off with regular weapons.
 Besides, if you're shooting infernos at it, you aren't taking advantage of its relatively thin armor.  I'll use my infernos on something that has heat problems to begin with.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #688 on: 16 May 2019, 10:54:57 »
It's a 3025 mech.  They all run hot.  As a bracket firer, it's fairly cool.  If you've already got two engine hits on me, you might as well finish me off with regular weapons.
 Besides, if you're shooting infernos at it, you aren't taking advantage of its relatively thin armor.  I'll use my infernos on something that has heat problems to begin with.
Intro tech units don't always have poor heat dissipation. The STK-3F has 20 single heat sinks and two bins of SRM ammo. I would have no problem loading it with inferno rounds. But the DV-6M has only 10 SHS. If I hit it with an SRM-6 filled with inferno (+8 heat average, +12 heat max), you can blow it up in a single turn.

DV-6M heat: Running (+2), 1 x Medium Lasers (+3), 2 x SRM-2 (+4), hit with 6 x inferno rounds (+12) = 21 heat (+11)

In this example, I would cause the unit to explode on a 2 or 3 in a single turn. And since it only has 10 SHS, it cannot fire and move the next turn without risking another explosion check. So it's a truly bad idea to load it with infernos, IMO. I know you're saying "it's intro tech," but 10 SHS is the minimum heat dissipation in all of BT. And there are MANY intro tech units which have much better dissipation and still can afford to load inferno rounds (STK-3F, TDR-5S, PX-3R, KTO-18, etc.).
« Last Edit: 16 May 2019, 10:56:58 by TigerShark »
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massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #689 on: 16 May 2019, 11:50:31 »
Intro tech units don't always have poor heat dissipation. The STK-3F has 20 single heat sinks and two bins of SRM ammo. I would have no problem loading it with inferno rounds. But the DV-6M has only 10 SHS. If I hit it with an SRM-6 filled with inferno (+8 heat average, +12 heat max), you can blow it up in a single turn.

DV-6M heat: Running (+2), 1 x Medium Lasers (+3), 2 x SRM-2 (+4), hit with 6 x inferno rounds (+12) = 21 heat (+11)

In this example, I would cause the unit to explode on a 2 or 3 in a single turn. And since it only has 10 SHS, it cannot fire and move the next turn without risking another explosion check. So it's a truly bad idea to load it with infernos, IMO. I know you're saying "it's intro tech," but 10 SHS is the minimum heat dissipation in all of BT. And there are MANY intro tech units which have much better dissipation and still can afford to load inferno rounds (STK-3F, TDR-5S, PX-3R, KTO-18, etc.).

Well, a couple of problems with that.

First, I was talking about the older inferno rules, where a single missile adds +6 heat for 3 turns, and each additional missile extends the duration (but doesn't increase the total heat).  I know those aren't the current rules, but when we debate "decisions that make no sense", I think we've got to look at all the various rule sets that have existed.  If it makes sense under one set of rules, then that's enough.  Anytime we see sets of SRM-2s, it's basically a neon sign telling us to think about the old inferno rules.

Second, with your example, you've got to catch the mech with an SRM-6 load of inferno missiles on the same turn that he moves and fires lots of weapons.  It's certainly possible, but let's look at it from a true game perspective.  He's a 5/8/5 mech, and you've got him running.  He's probably getting at least a +2 movement mod, possibly a +3.  He's pretty fast for his time frame, so he may be able to dictate range.  So you certainly aren't guaranteed to hit him.  With regular pilots, you need 4 + 2 or 3 for his movement, + whatever he's got for range, + your own movement.  If he can position himself at 7 hexes, he'll be shooting at short with his LRMs and you'll be at long with your SRMs.  I'd say there's a good chance that you'll need 10+ to hit him, and you're hoping he'll explode on a 2 or a 3.  The odds are not in your favor on that one.

Basically once he knows you've got an inferno-6, you'd need to win initiative (so that you can declare fire last), and then hit him on a turn when he attacks with a lot of weapons.  Then if he doesn't explode, you need a reason why he can't jump 5 out of line of sight and cool off.

Third, the Dervish isn't any more vulnerable to this than any other mech that carries ammo.  It carrying infernos really has nothing to do with it.  As soon as you can push him past 14 heat, you've got a chance to shut him down.  Push him past the ammo explosion point and you might blow him up.  But that's just the problem with mechs with 10 SHS.  It has nothing to do with the Dervish carrying 2 tons of SRM ammo.

 

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