Author Topic: Mech design decisions that make no sense  (Read 142929 times)

TigerShark

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #690 on: 16 May 2019, 13:06:30 »
Well, a couple of problems with that.

First, I was talking about the older inferno rules, where a single missile adds +6 heat for 3 turns, and each additional missile extends the duration (but doesn't increase the total heat).  I know those aren't the current rules, but when we debate "decisions that make no sense", I think we've got to look at all the various rule sets that have existed.  If it makes sense under one set of rules, then that's enough.  Anytime we see sets of SRM-2s, it's basically a neon sign telling us to think about the old inferno rules.

Second, with your example, you've got to catch the mech with an SRM-6 load of inferno missiles on the same turn that he moves and fires lots of weapons.  It's certainly possible, but let's look at it from a true game perspective.  He's a 5/8/5 mech, and you've got him running.  He's probably getting at least a +2 movement mod, possibly a +3.  He's pretty fast for his time frame, so he may be able to dictate range.  So you certainly aren't guaranteed to hit him.  With regular pilots, you need 4 + 2 or 3 for his movement, + whatever he's got for range, + your own movement.  If he can position himself at 7 hexes, he'll be shooting at short with his LRMs and you'll be at long with your SRMs.  I'd say there's a good chance that you'll need 10+ to hit him, and you're hoping he'll explode on a 2 or a 3.  The odds are not in your favor on that one.

Basically once he knows you've got an inferno-6, you'd need to win initiative (so that you can declare fire last), and then hit him on a turn when he attacks with a lot of weapons.  Then if he doesn't explode, you need a reason why he can't jump 5 out of line of sight and cool off.

Third, the Dervish isn't any more vulnerable to this than any other mech that carries ammo.  It carrying infernos really has nothing to do with it.  As soon as you can push him past 14 heat, you've got a chance to shut him down.  Push him past the ammo explosion point and you might blow him up.  But that's just the problem with mechs with 10 SHS.  It has nothing to do with the Dervish carrying 2 tons of SRM ammo.
The thread is about design decisions that make no sense. i.e.: actual units. You're talking about a rule set that is no longer in use. So we're not on the same page.

Second, ammunition explosions are on a 19+ heat normally. With inferno bins, there's an explosion check at 8+ heat. So it has everything do to with a unit carrying inferno that cannot cool down. :) A 10 SHS unit doesn't cool as well as one with 20 SHS. They're just not equivalent in any way.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #691 on: 16 May 2019, 13:34:47 »
No, massey has the right approach . . . the paired SRM2s on a cavalry unit makes sense since it was the only sized launcher that could carry infernos at the time and they were the easiest kill on vehicles- since fire support vehs are a special target for the mech cav, again it makes sense.  It also makes sense since Infernoes provided a set amount of heat (60% of what the average mech could cool) rather than spiking it up for a single turn to a higher artificial cap (especially when fiction has them affecting a unit over what would be multiple turns).  If I could hit a vehicle with 50% of the 4 Inferno SRMs, that is 6 turns total the vehicle has to survive on a 8+ roll.

Its akin to saying the Dreadnaught as a design sucks because it cannot stand up to a US CVN- both ships were designed under different rules.
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TigerShark

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #692 on: 16 May 2019, 13:51:40 »
No, massey has the right approach . . . the paired SRM2s on a cavalry unit makes sense since it was the only sized launcher that could carry infernos at the time and they were the easiest kill on vehicles- since fire support vehs are a special target for the mech cav, again it makes sense.  It also makes sense since Infernoes provided a set amount of heat (60% of what the average mech could cool) rather than spiking it up for a single turn to a higher artificial cap (especially when fiction has them affecting a unit over what would be multiple turns).  If I could hit a vehicle with 50% of the 4 Inferno SRMs, that is 6 turns total the vehicle has to survive on a 8+ roll.

Its akin to saying the Dreadnaught as a design sucks because it cannot stand up to a US CVN- both ships were designed under different rules.
Your analogy isn't a valid one. There really isn't a real-world scenario which would work, because "rules" don't retroactively change the past like they do in BattleTech. If the SRM-4 and -6 suddenly have infernos available, that means they always had them available, unless there's a hard date before which that never occurred. Unlike the Dreadnought, which was created to stand up to the guns of its day and eventually became obsolete. If aircraft carriers and torpedo-equipped fighters somehow retroactively existed during WWI, you'd have to assume the Dreadnought class would have been created knowing that it would face these anachronisms and been adjusted during the design phase to accommodate. It was obsolete because these things didn't exist at the time and could not counter them once they did.


The SRM-4 and -6 suddenly having inferno rounds available should have been cause for a retcon to fix the design, since the entirely philosophy was different under which it was made. Hence why the MAD-3R sucks as a unit; it USED to have "crit padding" from the heat sinks under Battledroids rules. Now that it doesn't, it's a walking bomb. That design decision 'made sense' under the original rules, but once those crits "disappeared", would SOMEONE not have noticed that they kept blowing up? Well, the MAD-1R fixed this oversight by relocating the ammo to the same torso as the AC/5 in its record sheet. The MAD-3R should have had the same done for it.
« Last Edit: 16 May 2019, 13:56:13 by TigerShark »
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massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #693 on: 16 May 2019, 14:24:59 »

The SRM-4 and -6 suddenly having inferno rounds available should have been cause for a retcon to fix the design, since the entirely philosophy was different under which it was made. Hence why the MAD-3R sucks as a unit; it USED to have "crit padding" from the heat sinks under Battledroids rules. Now that it doesn't, it's a walking bomb. That design decision 'made sense' under the original rules, but once those crits "disappeared", would SOMEONE not have noticed that they kept blowing up? Well, the MAD-1R fixed this oversight by relocating the ammo to the same torso as the AC/5 in its record sheet. The MAD-3R should have had the same done for it.

They're just not gonna do that.  There's no reason to, and you are the only person I've ever heard suggest that they ought to.

This thread alone probably puts 10 times the amount of thought and analysis into uses of individual mechs than the original game designers did.  Really we are just playing around, coming up with justifications for the eccentricities of a 30+ year old board game that we happen to enjoy.  I figure if we can come up with a half-assed reason why something might be a good idea, that's reason enough.  But it's not as much fun to just say that.  That's why we're pounding away, making square pegs fit into round holes.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #694 on: 16 May 2019, 15:09:07 »
If you're firing that many SRMs at my Dervish I'm still ahead in that exchange. It's a 1 in 12 chance of explosion and it'll bounce right back out on jump jets.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #695 on: 16 May 2019, 15:17:10 »
If you're firing that many SRMs at my Dervish I'm still ahead in that exchange. It's a 1 in 12 chance of explosion and it'll bounce right back out on jump jets.

And if you'd hit the Dervish with standard SRMs you'd have had a chance to force a PSR and possibly breach the armor somewhere.
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massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #696 on: 16 May 2019, 15:27:53 »
Yeah, the Dervish is lightly armored enough that it's kind of a waste to shoot infernos at it.

TigerShark

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #697 on: 16 May 2019, 16:24:48 »
They're just not gonna do that.  There's no reason to, and you are the only person I've ever heard suggest that they ought to.
That topic (re.: revising 3025 units) has been up on the board before and discussed by many people. Do a search. :)
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Colt Ward

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #698 on: 16 May 2019, 16:33:41 »
Saying it could be re-done better is one thing, but saying it absolutely should have been redone b/c a rule change invalidates a 'advantage' in how its designed under old rules.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #699 on: 16 May 2019, 16:35:35 »
Also, historically the developers have avoided retconing specific designs unless absolutely necessary (such as the design being suddenly illegal). So it's not going to happen anyway.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #700 on: 16 May 2019, 19:36:24 »
I can just see that logic... "The Dracs are rolling over our defenses, we´re desperately short on machines... oh, I know the solution: Let´s make our existing machines more vulnerable!"

Except that wasn't the situation when the -2D was developed.  It was given out when the AFFS was on a "kill them all" rampage as a result of Kentares.  "More guns means I kill them faster".

After that, during the 2nd SW and more importantly, the -2D2...yeah, I got nothing.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #701 on: 16 May 2019, 20:33:31 »
The 2D2 actually makes a little sense if you think of it as trying to fix something you've become emotionally invested in.  It's a significantly more polished design that cuts out the extra fat (superfluous heat sinks and ammo) and manages almost passable armor protection, while indulging in the new toy syndrome of the era. It's just how they got to that point that baffles me.  :D
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massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #702 on: 16 May 2019, 21:13:45 »
If you think of it as a bug mech on 'roids it's actually pretty good.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #703 on: 16 May 2019, 22:00:21 »
Are you familiar with the phrase "damning by faint praise?"
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Ruger

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #704 on: 17 May 2019, 09:00:28 »
Except that wasn't the situation when the -2D was developed.  It was given out when the AFFS was on a "kill them all" rampage as a result of Kentares.  "More guns means I kill them faster".

After that, during the 2nd SW and more importantly, the -2D2...yeah, I got nothing.

Well, if you really want to make the design be what you suggest here, there are a few modifications that would make it into a fair ambush design (as its purpose is suggested to be on Sarna).

 >:D

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #705 on: 18 May 2019, 22:31:21 »
The Celerity and any other 'Mech built for speed. The standard Celerity is only 2 or 3 hexes faster then a stock 3025 Savannah Master, and things only get worse from there, accumulating in a VTOL with a movement profile of 30/45 (60)

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #706 on: 19 May 2019, 00:10:31 »
The Celerity and any other 'Mech built for speed. The standard Celerity is only 2 or 3 hexes faster then a stock 3025 Savannah Master, and things only get worse from there, accumulating in a VTOL with a movement profile of 30/45 (60)
That's comparing apples to oranges.  The Celerity doesn't have significant terrain restrictions, can take advantage of partial cover, go hull down to get additional TMM, laterally shift, and carry a unit of battle armor with no mass dedicated to cargo like the others.  The VTOL in your example does not exist in canon which makes the example moot.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #707 on: 19 May 2019, 03:15:02 »
That's comparing apples to oranges.  The Celerity doesn't have significant terrain restrictions, can take advantage of partial cover, go hull down to get additional TMM, laterally shift, and carry a unit of battle armor with no mass dedicated to cargo like the others.  The VTOL in your example does not exist in canon which makes the example moot.

It is a perfectly fair comparison. Those other things you listed are just mitigating factors as to why you're basically spending more BV for less actual speed, which is a fair question to ask when you're devoting so much of the build towards going as fast as possible. However with that said, I think the Celerity makes more than enough sense though, especially since it is packing C3. I might not agree with the design decisions but I can see the reasoning why someone might make those decisions the way they did.

dgorsman

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #708 on: 19 May 2019, 10:41:25 »
Although an OmniMech (why did auto correct try to use OmniGraffle?!?), it's a drone.  Can a drone carry BA using mechanized BA rules?
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #709 on: 19 May 2019, 10:54:45 »
Although an OmniMech (why did auto correct try to use OmniGraffle?!?), it's a drone.  Can a drone carry BA using mechanized BA rules?

Can't imagine why not, it's the contact points built into an omnimech rather than the piloting that allow it so it might be a bit of a rumble but it ought to work.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #710 on: 19 May 2019, 13:17:49 »
Why did it autocorrect it indeed

OmniGiraffes are clearly divinely inspired and have no place in this thread

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #711 on: 19 May 2019, 16:25:05 »
It's clearly a Quad Superheavy suffering with the Exposed Head and Hyper Accuators (Head) quirks :)

SCC

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #712 on: 20 May 2019, 01:20:38 »
Well OmniGraffle is' diagramming software on Mac's, so that's why auto-correct might suggest it. Given that it's business software but I'm guessing you where posting from a Mac or iPhone then as I can't imagine it's well know outside of that sphere.

dgorsman

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #713 on: 20 May 2019, 10:50:20 »
Samsung, actually.  Sorry for the derail.
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mmmpi

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #714 on: 20 May 2019, 22:56:33 »
Sorry, did someone say Omnigiraffe?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #715 on: 21 May 2019, 09:50:05 »
Sorry, did someone say Omnigiraffe?

https://i.imgur.com/2RfxAzI.jpg
They did say that, but what do OmniGiraffes have to do with the subject, even if they were Omnivores, which they are not?  Do Omnivores eat OmniMechs?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #716 on: 21 May 2019, 19:45:12 »
They did say that, but what do OmniGiraffes have to do with the subject, even if they were Omnivores, which they are not?  Do Omnivores eat OmniMechs?

Of course. You just have to prepare them properly with the right seasonings.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #717 on: 21 May 2019, 23:07:00 »
They did say that, but what do OmniGiraffes have to do with the subject, even if they were Omnivores, which they are not?  Do Omnivores eat OmniMechs?

Nope, just giraffes that can be reconfigured to eat from either tall, or short trees.

But it's possible that I just made an omnigaffe.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #718 on: 22 May 2019, 02:42:33 »
You know, now I'm imagining giraffes with SRM pods attached to their necks, like the old Dino Rider toys from the 80s.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #719 on: 22 May 2019, 05:07:31 »
So, back to 'Mech designs that make no sense. If it hasn't been said before, the Charger, or at least the decision to produce (The idea itself isn't bad, so I can see why it got to the design stage, but it should never have reached full production).

 

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