BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: Sjhernan3060 on 14 January 2016, 13:34:48
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One of my favorite parts of the Twilight of the Clans is when Ilkhan Osis belated asks the other clans for help after Task Force Serpent has defeated the garrison. He is swiftly denied by the other clans. However after finding my twilight of the Clans scenario pack I would like to revisit this. I am asking you all for campaign and story ideas. So here are some questions and I ideas I have.
• Assuming another clan did step forward at the Grand Council could or would the Wolves of the Falcons block the action via Trial of refusal?
• Personally I would love to have seen the Blood Spirits or Hells Horses jump in or even the Hellions
o Storyline wise each of these options present opportunities and challenges but I could see the then crusader Horses do it
• If a clan did help the Jaguars how much force would be required to defeat Task Serpent?
o A whole Galaxy seems like overkill but a Khan and a Khesik was not enough
• Finally if you were the Khan who saved the Jags what would you want? I would ask for:
o The design team for the protos
o Access to unique Jag designs
o I think I would pass on absorption but I am open to ideas
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It probably won't have taken much more to finish off TFS. Don't forgot that after defeating both of the Second Line Galaxies on planet TFS was in pretty bad shape. What remained of the Jag's front line forces that were returning from the Inner Sphere pretty much finished off what was left. It just took them so much time that Task Force Bulldog was able to support Serpent right at the end. A cluster or two of a fresh frontline galaxy from one of the other clans would probably destroyed the last of Serpent long before Bulldog could help.
But on the same side I don't think many of the other Clans would have helped the Jags. By all regards the Falcons were the closest thing the Jags had as an ally among the Clans, and then only because of them both being the "Leaders" of the Crusader faction. This is one of the reason the 2nd SL picked them the assumed that none of the other Clans would come to their aid. The Spirits were in no position to help after being devastated during the Burrock Absorption. The Hellions would probably be your best bet for any Clan giving assistance.
But then again this is a "what if". When ever I run those, I do what ever I need to make the story good.
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I hate to be "that guy" but going by what happened to the Jaguar holdings after the Great Refusal, the Clans may not have cared to help for reasons other than Clan honor. There was a Clan who was being destroyed without a Trial to claim their holdings. Letting the SLDF smash the Jags opened up the land grab the other Clans fought in after the Jags were gone.
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Hmmm Good point False son.
Circa 3060 do you think any Clan other than the Adders would have had the foresight to preserve the Jags and kept them as vassal like what the Adders eventually did with the Horses/Stone Lions?
I do like the Hellion suggestion! It would have given them great battle experience and bragging rights. So lets take this a bit further:
TF Serpent is wiped out by a combined clan force. Roughly a Galaxy or less of a battered but battle hardened Jags survive.
TF Bulldog would not have known of this until their arrival in the Homeworlds. Do they still burn in system to try and finish the Jags?
Do things still play out exactly the same?
What if the helping clan absorbs the Jag survivors?
From the Clan mindset they could say “ Hey no Jags here!”
Would Bulldog still go for the Great Refusal?
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The thing to remember, to me, is that the Clan way dictated that the Jaguars HAD to go it alone. What the Jags saw as the Wolves (and Falcons) abandoning them to their fates, 'betraying' them, was merely the Clans practicing their rules. If you can't take on an enemy coming at you like this, you're too weak to contribute to the next generation of Kerensky's children- whether that be a warrior failing, or even an entire Clan. For the Jaguars to even admit wanting help was a massive loss of face. Had another Clan jumped in, really you'd have a situation not unlike the Burrock absorption later- in a matter between two forces, a third party interfered, a massive violation of Clan law- or at the very minimum, an admission that one side of the conflict is too weak to win without needing assistance, which might be even worse. In this case, even if Serpent is defeated, the Jaguars are doomed- someone is going to declare an Absorption or some such over their conduct, and they- and the Clan that helped them- are tainted and weak in the eyes of their comrades.
Rambling, I know, but just based on the Clan's own rules the Jags faced their fate and failed- a far better fate than succeeding through dezgra.
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Jadehellbringer - drop the mic.
I think you nailed it!
So assuming that
From an alternate stroy line perspective the moment that Osis asked for help a canny Khan could have declare him unfit for the Ilkhanship and or his clan ripe for absorption.
So say the crusader Horses or the Steel Vipers declare a trail of absorption could they then make the case they also get the Jags invasion corridor?
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Further - I know Osis would fight absorption to the death and once he is killed but a much smarter leader like Brandon Howell could have seen the wisdom in accepting absorption....
Adding a galaxy of battle hardened Jags, Huntress as a secondary base to your Touman would give a ambitious Homeworld Clan like the Hellions or Horses a big leg up in the renewed invasion
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That gets tricky.
Let's use the Snow Ravens as our example, for no better reason than I've been painting a Zeta Galaxy Kit Fox E. The Ravens jump in and help the Jaguars. They succeed, but the Jags are shown to be weak and to be absorbed. Here's where it gets messy. The Ravens might claim it, but they jumped in- didn't they commit a dezgra act by interfering in a Trial which they had no involvement in? This kind of stuff lead to the Reaving a decade later, after all.
But, for sake of argument, sure, the Ravens do it. They absorb the Jags. If that's the case, yes, they gain all Jaguar personnel, assets, and posessions- which, yes, would include the invasion corridor... assuming Bulldog ALSO failed, and the invasion corridor still exists, of course. In that case, the Jaguar OZ becomes the Raven OZ (and likely immediately be subject to Trials of Grievance and such, because have you ever met the Clans before?)
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Well, one thing is that the designation of dezgra is not part of clan law. Another is that even though Task Force Serpent is under the aegis of the new SLDF, it's more aptly considered coalition of nations fighting against one. By clan law, the ratio of attackers to defenders is based on the vote of the council. A second clan supporting the Jags could be considered a de facto vote against Task Force Serpent, allowing that clan to intercede.
Now, given the strength (or lack thereof) of the Jaguars after Task Force Serpent, a clan that comes in and aides them is very likely to call for an absorption afterwards. The Jags are stuck against a rock and hard place, or annihilation vs. absorption, their only real hope after Bulldog and Serpent is to allow their legacy to continue in another clan - they simply don't have the available numbers/strength to prevent this.
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Weren't the Diamond Sharks under Ian Hawker on their way to save the day when Vlad intercepted them and challenged for his legacy? If so simple alternate is to have Hawker get to Huntress and defeat the InnerSphere forces.
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The key to having the Jags get help from other clans and survive is for Osis to not bring his two requests for aid before the Grand Council. Instead of bluntly asking for help and looking weak before all the Khans, Osis (or someone in the Jag leadership) should have contacted a couple of Clans (maybe Sharks and Hellions), conducted backroom negotiations, and contracted to use of a piece of their toumans, like the weakened Wolves once did with the Horses to protect their OZ border with the Bears. As already mentioned, a cluster or two from another clan at the right time on Huntress would have ensured that the Jags survived Serpent and a galaxy or two from another clan at the right time could have preserved some of the Jaguar OZ from Bulldog. I'm sure the contracted clans would have exacted a high price from the Jags (Dire Wolf and Warhawk production licenses for the Sharks and Spheroid holdings for the Hellions, for example), but the Jags could have held on for a while longer.
It might not have been much longer if, as already pointed out, another Clan simply decided to take everything remaining from the Jags in their weakened state. But if the objective is to survive Serpent and/or Bulldog, then the way the Jags do it is not to publicly rely on the kindness of strangers (a foreign concept if ever there was one among the Clans!) but rather to make a deal.
My 2 Kerenskies... YMMV.
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The key to having the Jags get help from other clans and survive is for Osis to not bring his two requests for aid before the Grand Council. Instead of bluntly asking for help and looking weak before all the Khans, Osis (or someone in the Jag leadership) should have contacted a couple of Clans (maybe Sharks and Hellions), conducted backroom negotiations, and contracted to use of a piece of their toumans, like the weakened Wolves once did with the Horses to protect their OZ border with the Bears. As already mentioned, a cluster or two from another clan at the right time on Huntress would have ensured that the Jags survived Serpent and a galaxy or two from another clan at the right time could have preserved some of the Jaguar OZ from Bulldog. I'm sure the contracted clans would have exacted a high price from the Jags (Dire Wolf and Warhawk production licenses for the Sharks and Spheroid holdings for the Hellions, for example), but the Jags could have held on for a while longer.
It might not have been much longer if, as already pointed out, another Clan simply decided to take everything remaining from the Jags in their weakened state. But if the objective is to survive Serpent and/or Bulldog, then the way the Jags do it is not to publicly rely on the kindness of strangers (a foreign concept if ever there was one among the Clans!) but rather to make a deal.
My 2 Kerenskies... YMMV.
Hard to argue with. In the Clans, it's all about looking tough- better to be wiped out than LOOK weak. Begging for help is a sin, but working out an arrangement with someone? Well that's just business. (Really not all that different in a way than the Falcons 'negotiating' for help with the Ravens for transport help during the invasion a decade earlier in a lot of ways).
Of course, when everything is said and done, the same problem still applies- after the war ends, the Jags still have to beat back accusations of being weak and such. But that's their problem.
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An interesting alternative scenario would have been if Osis might have been declared unit to be ilKhan, an Absorption Trial being declared and then another Clan trying to win the Jaguar possessions and has to fight the Spheroids for these.
It did disturb me that the Clans so simply accepted an illegal Trial of Annihilation and had the Spheroids get such much precious spoils of war.
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Same - and thats the angle I will take.
Once Osis ask for help boom he is declared unfit. Sooooo whom would you all like to see rumble with Osis?
Suggestions: Mad Fletcher then Khan of the Hells Horses who was keen on pushing a very hard line crusader agenda in a nominally warden clan
Once Osis is removed then things could get interesting:
If a pro - unity ( which was very much lacking at the time) Khan could win the Ilkhanship then they could ask for a joint Clan force to crush TF Serpent. Was there anyone at the time who could have done that? Marthe and Vlad seem to self serving but I am open to ideas
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It did disturb me that the Clans so simply accepted an illegal Trial of Annihilation and had the Spheroids get such much precious spoils of war.
Makes sense for the Warden section. Killing off the Jags takes out the most outspoken Crusaders without the Wardens having to escalate their opposition to fightin' status.
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It did disturb me that the Clans so simply accepted an illegal Trial of Annihilation and had the Spheroids get such much precious spoils of war.
How so? The SLDF took back a bunch of worlds for the Combine and set up an enclave on Huntress, but the other Clans divvied up the Jaguars' remaining holdings between them. The Smoke Jaguars were Annihilated, with only a handful of warriors escaping to become bandits. The deed was done, so why put themselves out to fight for a weak Clan that was already destroyed?
Further, there were many among the Clans who were disgruntled with the events leading up to the Great Refusal, which led to the Wars of Reaving. Not to mention that the Clans ultimately paid literally no attention to the Great Refusal at all, with both the Falcons and Bears seizing further Inner Sphere territory during the FedCom Civil War period. The Diamond Sharks and Snow Ravens invaded in their own ways while the Refusal was still in effect, and the Hellions and Horses only struck the Wolves and Falcons because they thought that the OZs would be easier to administer.
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How did they ignore the Great Refusal. The Great Refusal was a trial against the invasion of the Inner Sphere by the Clans. By no means was it a trial to stop any individual Clan from trialing for and taking territory. In WoR there is a section that talks about how the only thing the Great Refusal did was make Klondike's (a unified Clan invasion of the Inner Sphere as a whole to reform the Star League) goals null and void. Sense the SL was reformed as the 2nd Star League there was no need for the Clans to continue to try and reform it. What you have to remember is that the Great Refusal wasn't the Inner Sphere trialing the Clans. It was the Clans trialing the 2nd Star League as being a sham and not being a true Star League. The Crusaders lost this trial and thus killing Klondike but individual Clans were free to attack the Inner Sphere. So the Falcons and Bears were completely in their right to take worlds.
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How so? The SLDF took back a bunch of worlds for the Combine and set up an enclave on Huntress, but the other Clans divvied up the Jaguars' remaining holdings between them. The Smoke Jaguars were Annihilated, with only a handful of warriors escaping to become bandits. The deed was done, so why put themselves out to fight for a weak Clan that was already destroyed?
Further, there were many among the Clans who were disgruntled with the events leading up to the Great Refusal, which led to the Wars of Reaving. Not to mention that the Clans ultimately paid literally no attention to the Great Refusal at all, with both the Falcons and Bears seizing further Inner Sphere territory during the FedCom Civil War period. The Diamond Sharks and Snow Ravens invaded in their own ways while the Refusal was still in effect, and the Hellions and Horses only struck the Wolves and Falcons because they thought that the OZs would be easier to administer.
IMHO before the Jaguars were defeated on Huntress, if there had been a Trial of Absorption, the *Absorber* Clan could have won the Jaguar`s slot as Invader Clan.
Furthermore, before the Great Refusal there could have been argued that the Spheroids did not defeat the Jaguars completely, it was another Clan who did this. This Clan is now the Invader Clan.
Do you want to declare a Trial of Refusal against this Clan?
I believe there would have been an escalation and if there had been a clever new ilKhan (agreeing that all Homeclans can send an expedition force).
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I always thought the Great Refusal was "illegal" as the Wolves fought a Trail of Refusal against the invasion of the InnerSphere in 3049.
Also the Jags were not annihilated. Bondsmen were taken, lower castes were not sterilized, no Grand Council resolution was ever successfully passed. What happened to the Jags was more akin to an Absorption than an Annihilation.
That would be interesting as the Star League has standing through the Nova Cats already and declared a de facto absorption. Plus capturing the Clan and the ilKhan would have given even more status to the Second League. What happens if the Great Refusal was on the Clans part. They refuse to join the League after all this?
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Putting aside ( the very interesting!) political what if's and back to the logistics of saving the jags and crushing TF Serpent.
Even though they had just been through the wringer in the Absorption war could that ever so angry Khan Schmidt have sent in the the Blood Guard Keshik:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Blood_Guard_Keshik_(Clan_Blood_Spirit)
Which I think could have been enough to snuff out TF Serpent if the Jags were able to pin them down.
So at the risk of a very elite and precious unit the Spirits stood to gain: A Galaxy of Jags, their home world, Two warships ( which the spirits really needed) among many other things.
So lets our imaginations go. Who would you have like to see do a "run in" to crush TF Serpent and vault themselves into the top tier over the remnants of the Jags?
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No.
Alternate idea for you instead of flipping out and wasting their strength in the Burrock Absorption the Spirits pounce a year later on the Jags.
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It doesn't matter if TF Serpent was destroyed. There was plenty of force leftover in TF Bulldog, especially after the Jaguars ran away.
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I have to agree with ColBosch. I think without a full second Clan, and a strong one at that, Bulldog would have crushed anything left. True there was a lot left of Bulldog but a good portion of it was left in the Inner Sphere when they left to the Clans. I know at least 8 Regiments were with Victor when he arrived for sure based on the Great Refusal units, but I would guess it was closer to 15-20. The Spirits would have been wiped out if they supported the Jags. I'm betting some of the smaller Clans would have been as well. Maybe if the Coyotes, Ravens or Adders had helped they might have been able to push back TFB. But the Coyotes and Ravens are both Wardens and the Adders were still working on integrating the Burrocks. The other big Clans wouldn't have been any good as they were mainly in the IS(Bears, Falcons, Wolves and Vipers). The only way I could see the Jags being saved would be with the Horses, but even then the Horses at this time were fixated on the Bears so probably weren't going to be able to support against Bulldog anyway.
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I can see little bit of that "needs to the many out weight needs of the few"-thinking in that as well as Clan Politics and Crusader Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon wanting Clan Smoke Jaguar to prove themselves worthy to survive against Inner Sphere forces. How ever I think that Clan Politics had more to do with it.
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Let's see...
Agree to support the Jags
Obliterate TFS
Declare the Jags weak in the GC cuz they called you for help
Absorb the Jags
Become arguably the strongest clan and have a possible claim to a slot as an invader
This sounds like a deal an N'buta would love!!!
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The Jags lived by "In this solemn matter, let no one interfere!" They went on to die by the mercy provided by their own brutal example.
It was superbly fitting for them to perish the way they did.
The only way it could have been more fitting is for the IS forces to bombard all population centers from orbit.
So really, there's no reason to save the Jags. Not in my opinion, anyway.
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The only way it could have been more fitting is for the IS forces to bombard all population centers from orbit.
That's interesting point. Maybe IS forces didn't do it so that they could show that they are better than that. After all they were led by Victor Steiner-Davion who's as archtypical good guy as you can get in BT.
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That's interesting point. Maybe IS forces didn't do it so that they could show that they are better than that. After all they were led by Victor Steiner-Davion who's as archtypical good guy as you can get in BT.
No doubt about why the IS forces did not use brutal tactics to destroy the Jags. I agree. Plus, the civs suffered enough under the Smoked Jags. More would just be heaping the misery on already broken people.
I was just musing that in the greater scheme of poetic universal justice, the Jags escaped getting the exact flavor of their just desserts.
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No doubt about why the IS forces did not use brutal tactics to destroy the Jags. I agree. Plus, the civs suffered enough under the Smoked Jags. More would just be heaping the misery on already broken people.
I was just musing that in the greater scheme of poetic universal justice, the Jags escaped getting the exact flavor of their just desserts.
You make it sound like they did the orbital bombardment thing all the time.
I mean, sure, there were all the numerous other terrible things they did involving burning down towns, but they only nuked a place from orbit once, right? ;D
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While the Orbital Bombardment was an outlier, the simple fact is that the Jaguars were noted to be among the most if not the most brutal of the remaining Clans to their lower caste.
And yes, a cluster or two might have finished off TFS, but would just die under Bulldog's guns. For that, a Galaxy or more would be needed.
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If Serpent had shown up and turned their guns on population centers, it would have meant apocalypse. For the Jaguar civilians, for sure, but for Serpent as well.
Think about it. The other Clans were horrified by Turtle Bay, leading to the Wolves declaring warship use to be out as a tactic from then on in the invasion. The other Clans had to follow suit as a result. The use of such a tactic was seen as being a grave dishonor by the other Clans, and even the Jaguars afterwards seemed mixed about it at best.
Now imagine an Inner Sphere fleet shows up and does the same thing in revenge.
...Now remember the reaction the previous time a Clan used WMD attacks- the nuclear attack on Dehra Dun. And how THAT turned out. (Yes, I know the Wolverines may not have ended up being responsible, but the Clans in 3060 don't know that.)
Rather than facing Clan Smoke Jaguar- and winning only thanks to the arrival of Bulldog (a plot point I've always hated, btw), Serpent now has probably enraged at least several Clans, if not all of them. Not only does Serpent get swallowed up by a sea of angry Clanners, it probably causes the Clans to not only never deal with the Great Refusal, it invalidates the Tukayyid Truce (Comstar ships, after all, just dishonored their faction with such a heinous act- why give them the respect of honoring the deal?).
If Serpent fires a single shot at a city with their warships, they win a temporary victory at best- and guarantee the response from the rest of the Clans, both in the Homeworlds and back in the Inner Sphere when news reaches there, will bring about the kind of horror and loss of life the 3050 invasion merely hinted at.
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Think about it. The other Clans were horrified by Turtle Bay, leading to the Wolves declaring warship use to be out as a tactic from then on in the invasion. The other Clans had to follow suit as a result. The use of such a tactic was seen as being a grave dishonor by the other Clans, and even the Jaguars afterwards seemed mixed about it at best.
Am I the only one that takes everything said by the Wolves in the period with a grain of salt? Ulric was so against the invasion he tried every bend in the Clan honor code to obstruct it. Of course, the Jaguars were playing right into the Wolf anti-invasion narrative.
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Timeline and errata question:
When did the Clans know that Bulldog was coming?
How much did the IS bring?
Do we know what a fully functioning Clan SDS system would involve?
To be clear the Jags are bad guys and gals who deserved what they got I am just interested in crafting a story where their best/worst elements are melded into another clan.
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Another wacky candidate to do a run in:
On Huntress would be the Cloud Cobras! Now hear me out they were always very self serving and sneaky and I am curious as to how their Aero heavy clusters would have fared against Serpent
Also in the scenario I am looking at its after the 2nd naval battle over Huntress so Serpernts fleet is pretty shot up. How much do you think would be needed to crush it?
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When did the Clans know that Bulldog was coming?
How much did the IS bring?
I think you actually mean Serpent here, Bulldog was the operation to eject the Jaguars from their Inner Sphere occupation zone. Serpent was the attack on the Jaguar's Kerensky Cluster holdings.
In Bulldog, it's unlikely that the Clans, as a whole, knew anything of it at all until the first wave actually started - the clans don't consider decent intel services necessary and are still not familiar with war across such a large front as they have in the IS. The Nova Cats and the Wolves-in-Exile both participated in Bulldog, aiding the second Star League forces, so were likely in on at least part of the planning, perhaps as much as 6 months before the actual start. The attack here, ended up including roughly 80 regiments and a galaxy from each of the Nova Cats and the Wolves-in-exile, so there was roughly a 5-1 battlemech ratio in favor of the Inner Sphere.
Operation Serpent consisted of a battalion short of 11 regiments and was performed in as much secrecy as possible. The IS intel agencies spread false rumors about the size (making it out to be much smaller than it actually was), and again the clan watch was crap and little paid attention to, so even if they did hear about it they wouldn't think all that much about it. The commander of the Huntress forces was surprised when they showed up in system, though he got over it. The primary point where it could have really struck home was during the Trafalgar battle, where Serpent came upon a Ghost Bear convoy, an HPG broadcast to other GB units are possible, but if that occurred, the GBs didn't share - this would have been about 3 months before Serpent arrived over Huntress.
Do we know what a fully functioning Clan SDS system would involve?
No, but we can guess based on what the Star League had before and during the Amaris Coup. This included the M series drones (of which there are 11 ranging from the 50 ton M-1 BlackWasp fighter to the massive M-11 Da Vinci class service station (based on the Newgrange-class yardships). Due to the way the clans fought the SDS would have been among the last places resources would be placed, so the idea that anything more than Fighters (M-1s) and small repair and refit stations (M-7s and M-8s) would be pushing it, though a few dropship sized drones are a possibility (M-2s or M-3s). There would, of course be some manned ASF and Attack Dropships available to the spaceborne defenses as well, but none of these would hold a candle to the 7 real warships included in Serpent.
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Thanks for the info on the SDS system!
RE: Bulldogg I meant how much did Victor bring to homeworlds after the Jags were driven out of their OZ?
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No, but we can guess based on what the Star League had before and during the Amaris Coup. This included the M series drones (of which there are 11 ranging from the 50 ton M-1 BlackWasp fighter to the massive M-11 Da Vinci class service station (based on the Newgrange-class yardships). Due to the way the clans fought the SDS would have been among the last places resources would be placed, so the idea that anything more than Fighters (M-1s) and small repair and refit stations (M-7s and M-8s) would be pushing it, though a few dropship sized drones are a possibility (M-2s or M-3s). There would, of course be some manned ASF and Attack Dropships available to the spaceborne defenses as well, but none of these would hold a candle to the 7 real warships included in Serpent.
Kerensky despised robotic drones, the Clan SDS would stick to manned systems, such as an Clan version of the Bastion.
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Couple points . . . if Serpent had burned down the cities from orbit and word reached the Grand Council, I think the limited invasion would be over along with the Warden/Crusader divide about invading. After that it would only matter as to how they treated the IS populations.
I think the Sharks would probably have been Osis best bet, especially if he had approached them privately. IMO the question is how did Vlad find out where to face Hawker to halt his movement? I do not remember hearing how exactly he knew where to go which does create some interesting questions. Such a 'buy-in' to the Inner Sphere due to negotiations with Osis would have appealled to Hawker & Co's as well as his saKhan's merchant/dealing desire- especially if the deal was left for the saKhan and Angus Labov to negotiate . . . A few worlds near the border, more interior as 'trading worlds' for anyone to visit.
Would the 2SL even hold up if they bombarded Huntress?
And here is a fun twist . . . what if a Word of Blake division or two using the equipment caches out towards Clan space had dropped onto Huntress in the wake of the OZ survivors to rescue Serpent?
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I am of the opinion that the Jags were terminally stupid, due to writers. Without rewriting everything back to Klondike, they were always going to be terminally stupid. The Jags took the competition Nicky K had fostered with the trial system and turned it to 11, they tuned all Nicky Ks bad ideas to 11, which is why they died. Their culture didn't become elastic enough to change until it was too late. On top of all this they thought they could carry the trial system to the IS, and the IS would respect that, when the IS has been fighting wars to the hilt for 300+ years.
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... facing Clan Smoke Jaguar- and winning only thanks to the arrival of Bulldog (a plot point I've always hated, btw) ...
Me too, to the extent that I can't help but always think what I would do differently if I were in the driver's seat ...
I would have had Smoke Jaguar defeat Bulldog, and just as they were having their relief-saturated moment of victory - they notice aallll of the other Clans circling like piranhas. End of Smoke Jaguar.
Bonus to this: I also always hated the Great Refusal. So as the Clans are hungry-hungry hippoing all things Jaguar and Nova Cat, this is the spark that kicks off the Reaving. This of course would be sufficiently destructive as to indefinitely end the Clan invasion - without Victor's Trial of Refusal.
Sorry for the slight derail.
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Because in real life no group or nation is ever so short sighted they cannot adapt. The Clans as a whole were written to have problems, and you are right that one of the more extreme Clans were going to have more/sooner. Sure they were short sighted, but its not like the writers did not have any historical examples to draw on in what they made- just like the rest of the universe.
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*times travels to just before the Outbound Light misjumps to Huntress and detonates a nuke destroying the Jumpship and preventing the Clan invasion*
Smoke jaguars saved. My work here is done.
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*times travels to just before the Outbound Light misjumps to Huntress and detonates a nuke destroying the Jumpship and preventing the Clan invasion*
Smoke jaguars saved. My work here is done.
Rapid Jaguar crusaders declare this was a failed Spheroid attempt to nuke their homeworld and a more brutal Clan invasion begins.
IMHO nothing could have stopped the first Clan invasion. The time was ripe.
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Smoke jaguars saved. My work here is done.
Wait! Then we have no Fidelis! O0
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Wait! Then we have no Fidelis! O0
None will notice.
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Getting back on topic I want to sketch out a clear game and narrative scenario:
Leading candidate goes something like this:
Osis asks for help as written but khan mavali fletcher of the hells horses who has been searching for a way to vault his clan to invader status steps up.
Fletcher declares osis unfit for the ilkhanship since his lack of foresight and leadership allowed the inner sphere access to the homeworlds. He challenges osis on his fitness for command and defeats him.
Now at this point he could requests a trial of absorption against the jags. What are the rules around that again?
Or he could just dramatically declare his intention to " wipe out the barbarians" and head to huntress sans council approval.
So with that being said what would the horses need to slay the serpents?
The serpent fleet was battered after the 2nd naval engagement with the horses expertise in infantry and battle armor tactics can we assume they would have the skills to attempt to board and capture the remaining serpent warships?
To finish the ground fight I woukd bring alpha keshik along with beta Galaxy command and the 666 assault cluster a total of 7 trinaries of elite crusaders in top flight equipment with experiance in all manner of terrain.
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You make it sound like they did the orbital bombardment thing all the time.
I mean, sure, there were all the numerous other terrible things they did involving burning down towns, but they only nuked a place from orbit once, right? ;D
Only the Mongeese on Fianna, after apparently telling the ilKhan that it would not be fair to have to fight their way onto the fortified island continent.
And I think they bombarded their own citizens during the Londerholm Revolt/shoe riot.
Then Edo on Turtle Bay.
So, they really liked to fall back on one particular space-to-ground tactic. But more than once. They just didn't do it often. It was like their Mortal Combat finishing move.
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Because in real life no group or nation is ever so short sighted they cannot adapt.
Historically there are plenty of such groups but they tend to be relegated to the dustbins of history or are otherwise forced to submit to more powerful opponents just like the Smoke Jaguars were. The Romans, the Byzantinians, Aztecs, Incas, most European nobility, many Asian empires, etc. There are numerous examples of military forces and their leaders being slow, if not unable to adapt to the evolving nature of the battlefield not to mention many examples of arrogant field commanders' overconfidence in the inevitability of their victory that they fail to take the steps needed to achieving it.
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I know, which is why I was using that to respond to snewsom.
Heck, pulling from you listed you could say the writers made the Aztecs REALLY terminally stupid. Best warriors around, defeating everyone, lording it over the conquered and nominal allies and BAM! some nobody leading an expedition into their home destroys them.
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Only the Mongeese on Fianna, after apparently telling the ilKhan that it would not be fair to have to fight their way onto the fortified island continent.
And I think they bombarded their own citizens during the Londerholm Revolt/shoe riot.
Then Edo on Turtle Bay.
So, they really liked to fall back on one particular space-to-ground tactic. But more than once. They just didn't do it often. It was like their Mortal Combat finishing move.
So they're like Smoke in MK3: When in doubt, blow up the planet!
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So they're like Smoke in MK3: When in doubt, blow up the planet!
Yes. A nicer version of the Covenant. Generally speaking.
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While I agree that few clans could have stopped the bulldog 2nd wave could not the victors of the fight against Tsf And the recent absorbers of the jags say " nope no jags here!"
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If another clan had trialed for the sibkos or linages of the jags would they have been stopped you think?
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That's interesting point. Maybe IS forces didn't do it so that they could show that they are better than that. After all they were led by Victor Steiner-Davion who's as archtypical good guy as you can get in BT.
That and if they did that the Clans would have gone nuts. You may as well drop a nuke on Strana Mechty and see the response to that.
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If another clan had trialed for the sibkos or linages of the jags would they have been stopped you think?
The legacy of a weak clan that was crushed by Inner Sphere trashborn? Who'd want that?
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Some did.
See Wars of Reaving, page 100, Fall of Szabo:
While some of the lines had since been claimed by several Clans in the years after the Annihilation of the Jaguars, most of them simply remained in cold storage within the massive mountain facility.
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Loving the discussion on this, I will run two different scenarios. One where the Horses come in and one with the Blood Spirits. I am curious to see how they will pan out...
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The Blood Spirits? The clan that got chewed up by jumping into a Trial of Absorption the previous year?
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Yes sir! Looking back Post Reavings and all the bad choices they made that ended in their death - I figure I would run a scenario where they would roll the dice again but ( hopefully) will net some gains. Namely a Galaxy of troops, protomech tech even earlier, a few warships etc.
Considering the other crazy things they did this seems not so wacky to me...
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Well, it's a complete 180 from their isolationist ideals at the time and the exact opposite of what they actually did but if it floats your boat....
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It does flot my boat to wish! As I envision it as basically a smash and grab ( smash the serpents) and (grab) as much Jags and Jag resources as possible. I doubt that 3060 Spirits could have held Huntress so in my mind they would then go back to York and plot as they did but with more toys and tech than they had in canon
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No.
Alternate idea for you instead of flipping out and wasting their strength in the Burrock Absorption the Spirits pounce a year later on the Jags.
Whoa - Did I just forget something major I had always thought the Absorption War was AFTER the Jags fell...
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Whoa - Did I just forget something major I had always thought the Absorption War was AFTER the Jags fell...
Yup, 3059 for the Absorption, 3060 for Serpent. Thus:
The Blood Spirits? The clan that got chewed up by jumping into a Trial of Absorption the previous year?
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With the faux-Royal Black Watch running around Huntress, that could give the Blood Spirits plenty of reason to drop some troops onto the planet to hunt down the pretenders.
Doesn't even have to a Clan-wide thing. The Schmitt Bloodhouse could petition to send Trueborns of that bloodline to Huntress to hunt down the faux-Royal Black Watch. It wouldn't be too overwhelming for the IS forces, since it wouldn't be full, long established units.
Could be a fun RPG bit.
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I like it!
So using the same mech and naval forces: 7 galaxies and their full navy the spirits could have rolled over serpent absorbed the jags and held huntress!?
In my story I will have kariana Schmitt defeat osis and demand the chance to absorb
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A Trial of Absorption is a matter decided on by the Grand Council, not two Khans, and requires a unanimous vote.
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Thanks Kit for the reminder - The GC held alot more sway in that era. So storyline wise the Spirits would have to ask for and be granted the right to absorb the jags.
Remember in my version the Spirits DID NOT, jump into the Burrock absorption. So the Spirits would make the motion to absorb, defeat any refusal from Osis and then bid for the right?
Considering that the other clans new next to nothing about their Toumans actual size - I would think the Spirits could do this the Legal and proper way.
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They'd have to make that proposal, against the clan from which the ilKhan was elected, get all the other Khans aside from the two Smoke Jaguar Khans to vote for Absorption and then convince a plurality of the Grand Council to assign the trail to them.
There's no bidding involved, another reason that the politically connected Adders were able to Absorb the Burrocks despite the enmity between that clan and the Blood Spirits. It seems a great stretch that the Spirits would suddenly become so gregarious given their nature. Then there is the case of possible trials of refusal against the clan that would be doing the Absorbing which could go on for years like that of the Widowmakers.
Keep in mind this isn't a "I want all your stuff" trial but rather the Clans have found the clan to be behaving in a manner that is unClanlike and that Clan deserves to be wiped out but its lower ranks are salvageable. The three times prior the War of Reaving the Burrocks were working with exiled members of the Clans, the Widowmakers massacred their merchants and the Mongeese had repeatedly used political maneuvering to buy respite for their failures on the battlefield. The other Clans aren't going to want to set their own Clans up for Absorption in the future for lesser reasons. Additionally, the Blood Spirits can't just attack Huntress, they need to be attacking all of the Jaguars' holdings; letting the Inner Sphere do most of their work for them would be setting themselves up for Absorption in the near future.
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Curse your well reasoned logic...
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I am also the Crusher of Dreams. Especially to Targe fans.
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I am also the Crusher of Dreams. Especially to Targe fans.
And this to 100% ... ;)
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A Trial of Absorption is a matter decided on by the Grand Council, not two Khans, and requires a unanimous vote.
Well . . . IIRC the Horses and Coyotes together crushed and absorbed a Kindraa for their actions, so it would be interesting to see a Clan declare they are 'absorbing' the Jaguars on say Tranquil. Not the whole Clan but the piece of the Clan on holdings they want.
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Actually Kit, I would have to disagree with you.
The Jaguar 'Annihilation' by the Star League would be the second unsanctioned (by the Grand Council anyway) destruction of a Clan. The precedent was established by the Jade Falcons during the Refusal War when they 'Absorbed' the Wolves which was accepted by the Clans despite the lack of Council action. A savvy Blood Spirit actor would realize this especially when they talked their Khan or Loremaster out of an ill considered Absorption War with the Burrocks and Star Adders.
Justification for such a de facto Absorption by the Spirits is simple - the Jaguars continued failure and their attempts to hide the truth from the Clans at large. A far larger Spirit Clan could conduct the operation and easily explain themselves afterwards. Don't forget the Spirits while bitter in the extreme at the rest of the Clans do have allies (Fire Mandrill, Snow Raven, and to a lesser extent Diamond Shark) who could back such a stance. The remaining Jaguars might get behind such a move as well throwing Osis under the bus as the ultimate scapegoat.
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Story line wise that's how I would write it. Osis defeated and ousted and the much cooler brandon Howell leading a new " reasonable" jags as part of another clan
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Well, you could make such an approach but when would this trial be declared?
When the Jaguars had been ejected from the Inner Sphere? That seems a bit premature given the failure of the Diamond Sharks in the Inner Sphere previously as well as the still potent Touman that the Jaguars appeared to have, the troops recalled from the Inner Sphere plus the garrison forces that the rest of the Clans believed they had on Huntress.
Once Task Force Serpent was revealed? At that point Huntress has been taken. The Spirits could Absorb the retreating troops that were headed to Huntress, but what would be left of that once they had defeated them? Assuming that the Spirits were able to whip up the Trial of Absorption during the Grand Council that refused to give aid to the Jaguars how do they even get through any following trials and assemble a force quickly enough? Huntress was taken on the 12th of March and the Jaguars attempted to liberate it on the 19th.
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The first alternate event in this line would occur in 3059 during the Burrock Absorption. I would have a created character (possibly older and more wise) from Clan Blood Spirit challenge Loremaster Bayle Campbell after hearing his counsel to ignore the will of the Grand Council and participate in the Burrock Absorption. After defeating him in combat this person would urge the Khans to abide by the Council's ruling but await the proper time to strike. Realizing this righteous task would take allies this new Loremaster would urge his Clan to end their isolation and approach a few respected Clans with offers of friendship. This would include Diamond Shark, Fire Mandrill, Snow Raven, and a few more like Ghost Bear or Steel Viper.
Now this changes things as the Burrock Absorption likely goes far smoother for the Star Adders with even stronger material gains. This could lend weight to the Blood Spirit efforts to accumulate allies among the Homeworld Clans attempting to balance out their power.
The Jaguars failure goes deeper than just their ejection from the InnerSphere. Operation Revival was their baby and it is blowing up in the Clans faces in 3060. The 'fear' caused by the discovery of the Clan Homeworlds was used by Leo Showers masterfully to get him elected ilKhan and start the invasion during which they faced several reversals (Wolcott, Luthien, Tukayyid) as well numerous questionable incidents (Edo, the escape of Hohiro and the bombardment of that planet).
ilKhan Osis was elected to restart the invasion and to that purpose he ordered an accounting of Clan strength (FM Crusader and Warden Clans). He failed notify anyone that the InnerSphere had launched a coordinated attack against his Occupation Zone and hid the disaster till he asked for help in the Grand Council (NEED THE DATE). Immediately after that meeting (I have to research the date) I would get the Blood Spirits rolling.
They don't like or need the Grand Council to authorize anything and most telling they hate the InnerSphere even more. News of the attack on Huntress would send them over the edge that these barbarians are in Kerensky's Homeworlds. Call them Trials of Possession for the purpose of ousting of any InnerSphere force from the Clan space. Now this puts the Spirits to war with the Jags (perhaps like the Burrocks fought the Adders during their Absorption) and the InnerSphere. A tall order yes but a winnable affair.
After which you show up at the Grand Council to justify your actions and cite the Refusal War as precedent with a reborn Jaguar Clan as your new ally.
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I mean, What's to stop a properly equipped clan from launching enough Trials of Possession one after another after another after another, until so many warriors are bondsmen, and so much of the clan's machinery, munitions, manufacturing and means of reproduction are in their hands that the target clan may as well be absorbed?
Difficult for the Blood Spirits to do to the Smoke Jaguars, for example... but if say the Jaguars angered the Ghost Bears into one of their berserker rages, and the Bears decided it was time for RIP AND TEAR.
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If a clan had agreed to help the jags per osiss request could they have demanded osis resignation as the price?
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Well, speaking entirely literally, you could name whatever terms for your assistance that you would like. You could demand his resignation, a dozen donuts and a strip-tease... the question is, how far could you push him before he would decide that your assistance was not worth the price.
I would think that most clans that would name that as a price, however, would prefer to see the Jaguars fall than save them.
as a Wolf, I think my price would be something along the lines of "Their Dire Wolf manufacturing line, all Jaguar rights to the design, joint rights and schematics for the Mist Lynx and Warhawk, 45% of Huntress (which I would then trade two thirds of to the Coyotes and Scorpions) the Jaguar Khan and saKhan's votes towards my ilKhanship, and a heartfelt artistic tribute to the nobility of the wolf performed before the grand council." but I would mostly be offering to see if I could make Osis have an aneurysm right then and there.
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Lol well said wolf!
But in keeping with the spirits huge secret power play couldn't they simply say " thanks for info ilkhan we will go investigate in force"
And then drop in with the intention of clsiming all that they could?
That could be the start and if the opportunity presented itself work out a quasi absorption with the more reasonable jags?
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In this story line the spirits are looking for a way to srike at the adders having the jags ( long time enemies of the adders) would be a great way to meld their two cultures against a common foe
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Hm.
If one were to engage in an Elias Crichell-esque level of Clan Rules Lawyering, You could make an argument that a Trial of Annihilation is also a defacto Trial of Possession for the annihilated clan's assets. So, Territory and Material taken by the annihilators would then be fair game for you to trial for.
Now, were it a proper ToA, you would likely face repercussions in council for dropping in and interrupting the ToA by ToPosession-ing those newly claimed assets. But since we are not talking about a real clan doing the Annihilating, no one is going to complain on behalf of the spheroids. And the Jaguars might rankle at you taking some of their territory and former possessions, but if they had the strength to DO anything about it, they would not have been in those dire straits to begin with.
Basically, you could do what the wolves do ninety years later on Tharkad. To thwart the Falcons, they show up and declares their own trial for half the planet. They're not exactly doing it to help the lyrans, they're not friendly with them in the process, but they see the opportunity to tweak their beak, and thwart their plan to take Tharkad. Then, in this case, they just walk out on the holdings they won there.
The spirits could do the same without agreeing to anything in particular or directly allying with the Jaguars, just treating it as a target of opportunity. Drop in on Task Force Serpent, wrest control of territory and assets from them (and if the Jaguars happen to start fighting them at the same time, well, sucks to be a spheroid) and then keep what they take. It's not like the Jaguars are going to have the strength or political credibility to demand it back.
and, as you just added, I do think there is something to be said for "the enemy of my enemy"
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What I always found funny about the Jaguar Annihilation is that in the same breath that people are saying "This is an internal Smoke Jaguar matter because the SLDF has only attacked the Smoke Jaguars," they're also saying "The Nova Cats aren't traitors, because they were attacked by the SLDF."
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So you can use that disconnect, IMO, to justify just about anything. And also keep in mind that the council doesn't have say really over what one Clan does. Even if the Clan Council decides not to act in concert with the Smoke Jaguars, if Clan A says "Yeah, we're going to do something on our own," there's not much the others can do, except political pressure really.
/edit
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The Nova Cats were traitors and fools that's a given I hate to say it but it's true
It's a shame the Cats couldn't have taken the OZ themselves left Huntress to the SLDF
then you'd have a Nova Cat OZ friendly to the IS but also have them part of Clan society playing both sides against the middle could have been fun
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Ok so I have found some of my Twilight of the Clans materials and here is what I am thinking, keep in mind the following conditions:
• The Spirits did not interfere in the Burrock absorption and so have a much larger touman ( and bigger fleet) than would be suspected and have been seeking a way to use it for maximum gain
• This is right when Osis announces Huntress is under attack at the Council
Plan A)
• The Spirit Khans declare that Osis is unfit to lead the Clans
o In a fit of rage Osis trips and bashes his head in killing himself – I am kidding about that but please remind me how that would work?
The Spirit Khans would have to fight him and Osis would be able to choose the manner of combat?
o Either way in my timeline Osis is removed as Ilkhan
o Setting up a power vacuum and a need for a new Ilkhan in the face of the IS Invasion
• The Spirit Khans THEN declare the new SLDF a blight on their honor, ancestors etc etc ( as their founder was a descendant from the leader of the Royal Black Watch) and declare they will destroy them themselves and rid the HOMEWORLDS of them and then with a dramatic swoosh of their red cloaks they exist the chamber hall.
o The remaining clans then bicker among themselves RE: the open Ilkhan post the Jag OZ etc.
• The Spirits promptly mobilize their fleet, the Blood Guard Keshik, Alpha and Beta Galaxy and move to the Huntress system.
o This is a smash and grab operation ( to Smash the SLDF and to grab Jag stuff)
o The Spirit fleet will attempt to get there before the 2nd naval battle of Huntress happens
o When they arrive they declare on an open channel broadcast their intention to crush the invaders
In this scenario I think it’s a pretty good chance the jag fleet would actually fight their “ saviors” – Thoughts?
The Spirits will attempt to cripple and capture the Invincible Truth and parlay with the remaining jag vessels. Personally I just want to add the Liberator to my expanding Spirit fleet but that would be tricky in this scenario.
Again suggestions welcome:
• If the Spirits communicate that Osis is dead and the only chance the Jags have to survive this fight and get revenge on the IS is with the spirits would the Jag vessels join forces/stand aside?
o The Spirits then land ground forces across huntress in a similar way to how they did in the Absorption War but again relaying the message that “ Osis is dead, revenge can only come through us” trapped between the Jags and the Spirits with no fleet support how did you all see those battles going?
o Frankly I think the Spirits would have a hard – much harder time of it than they expect. Reminder they would be coming out of years and years of isolation with next to no experience with large actions like this so I would expect a high causality rate at first when they fight cornered IS troops with little coordination with the Jags.
o Once they wipe out Serpent they then trial for possession of the surviving Jag units through one on one combat with unit commanders, strip out as much as possible from the planet then hightail it out of there !
• Plan B would involve high-level coordination with a cool jag like Brandon Howell details to follow.
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Some cold water -
The Blood Spirits don't have a big fleet, they traded most warships to the Snow Ravens in exchange for Mechs. Big ground arm small naval arm as a result. Only 6 warships.
Now some warm -
Solution is to enlist Raven support as part of the operation.
Interesting note - Howell is a Snow Raven bloodname and quite possibly a good one up till the Diamond Shark incident that is. Would they want it back?? Circe and other territories could help buy them off.
Here is one of my more fun ideas concerning Fire Mandrill involvement. The Spirits even supported the Wolverines cause they did not want to see a fellow Clan destroyed. Plus the Clans hate waste so how is this for an alternate event? The creation of three new Clans!
With a Smoke Jaguar absorption you have the legacies of two Clans available (them and Mongoose) together with Nova Cat. Something has to be done with them. Absorbing their bloodnames would allow the Fire Mandrills to finally do what they have been trying to do for years, separate. You jumble up the bloodlines so the four most powerful Kindraa (Sainze, Payne, Faraday-Tanaga, and Mattila-Carrol) form the core of new Clans.
Now one would remain Fire Mandrill likely Payne while Sainze would try to create some neo-samurai Dragon Clan leaving Faraday Tanaga and Mattila Carrol at the core of two others. The precedent is there with Jade Wolf for their creation and would create three new allies for Blood Spirit and Snow Raven to foster. You'd have a six Clan block (12 votes) in the Grand Council all of a sudden.
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Interesting ideas! But first the spirits would need to win in space and in the ground. How do you think they would do against serpent?
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Serpent probably wouldn't stand much of a chance against them if we are talking about the kind of force amassed by three Clans for a de facto Absorption. I see the Ravens committing only naval support to the operation which is contracted but the Fire Mandrills could be conducting Trials of Possession on Huntress for the bloodrights by the time Taskforce Serpent shows up.
Faced with such a force and perhaps even the knowledge that the Jaguars are being absorbed by the Clans maybe Victor withdraws or could play the hegira card. Given the Spirit attitude about the InnerSphere I doubt that would happen which could lead them into a desperate last stand on Huntress or Strana Mechty.
Oh and just one more justification on this cause we are talking about a three Clan operation. The Jaguars always took what they needed from other Clans and I get the idea they were bullies. Funny to see what happens when they are on the weak side.
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Oh and just one more justification on this cause we are talking about a three Clan operation. The Jaguars always took what they needed from other Clans and I get the idea they were bullies. Funny to see what happens when they are on the weak side.
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Yep
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Alas I only have the resources to run a Sprit/Jag and IS campaign.
Now Plan B as mentioned would involve the Spirits coordinating with SaKhan Brandon Howell and Hang Metha. By working together the Spirits could roll Serpant much faster and then offer to absorb the survivors. After defeating Serpent - then the spirits could go back to the Grand Council to retroactively get it approved and then have access to Jag blood lines enclaves etc.
In this scenario the Jags could still hold their heads up high as they fought and fought and so their blood lines still show promise and should be preserved.
The Spirits would then have instant access to the Protomech designs and the design teams who built them. They could then trade this info to their allies for additional resources etc down the road.
( Does this mean they would then be infecting themselves with the Society? I would think so)
Ideally in my scenario Kariann Schmitt dies doing what she does best (leading a berserk charge) against the last Serpent holdouts and the a more level head leader say:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Troy_Boques
pared with Brandon Howell as SaKhan for more on him read:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Brandon_Howell
Two farsighted – non ego driven nut jobs, would really help the Spirits consolidate their gains and plot a course for survival and dare I say it success in the future?
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If the Spirits kept their goals modest and attack Huntress to wipe out the IS invaders and to look cool ( as the clans are wont to do) I don't think they would mind reactivating the SDS system to knock out any incoming from BullDogg?
In this scenario they are claiming Huntress and all materials ( troops, factories etc) as Isorla. As others have mentioned a full on Absorpation would have been very tricky if not impossible to pull off.
So I would scramble their Naval reserve with a goal towards seizing as many ships as they could via boarding action and dropping the Blood Guard Keshik and at least two other galaxies to quickly crush Serpent.
Any Jags in orbit or on the ground would be invited to join the party.
If the Spirits used their at that point unknown and quite large ground arm to seize huntress I think it could have over time put them in a much better material position.
Frankly I would be churning out ASF and naval assests ASAP afterwards. Then they could have been choosy about their targets in the wars of possession which they had to sit out since they got their butts kicked in the Absorption war right?
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Also if the Huntress SDS system was turned back on do you think that would have stopped Op Bulldog from coming in to support Serpent?
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If the Clan SDS system was turned back....almost certainly the Jags would have survived. They'd have ben able to pick off "Bulldog" while it was still incoming.
They'd be weakened, but they'd still have forces available on other Cluster worlds such as Tranquil.
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Thanks Talen5000,
In the scenario I am working on, I would have the Blood Guard Keshik Commanded by Khan Karianna Schmidt personally attacking the new Royal Black Watch regiment ( her ancestor was their last commander in the SL era)
After the Spirits grounded - I would have the Nekemai attack the SDS command post again and kill Karianna but fail to destroy the secondary SDS command node. With Karianna out of the way I think the Spirits could have consolidated their gains and made better choices.
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Question about the 3060 era blood guard keshik. Was that a pure battle mech cluster?
On camospecs in the post 3060 era it is shown to be a mixed unit. If any one has attempted the paint scheme I would like to see your efforts!
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I'd assume that the Blood Guard Keshik would be like any other Blood Spirit Cluster, 3 Mech Trinaries, 1 BA Trinary and 1 Vehicle Trinary.
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Duh had not thought about that. Just very weighted towards assualt class units all around?
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Ayup.
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In the battles for huntress if the clans could have held onto air superioty would that have been a significant help to the jags? I seem to recall their air force was decimated very early on
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In the battles for huntress if the clans could have held onto air superioty would that have been a significant help to the jags? I seem to recall their air force was decimated very early on
To be blunt - IMO, the Jags were handed the stupid stick for Bulldog and Serpent and were afflicted by the usual "heroes get all the luck" syndrome.
Even the way they got the Exodus Road was noteworthy....it would have been far more satisfying if ComStars Explorer Corps had located the Homeworlds rather than a Clan warrior making use of technobabble.
Put another way...if one or two things had gone right for the Jags - if the IS cavalry had arrived a few days later...if Serpent had taken just a little bit longer to gather the supplies and charts for a year long voyage....if the Jags had thought to rig up a control unit for the SDS...if they'd had a back up control centre like any decent military...if half their forces hadn't decided for some weird reason to skip over to Tranquil instead of riding to the rescue of their capital...they'd have survived. Bulldog would have been beaten back, they would have repaired their SDS system, they'd have hundreds of Mechs to salvage...
As it is, I still have the feeling that FASA just got sick and tired and bored of the Clan storyline and wanted to shift the focus away from them and this was just their way to bringing the storyline to a juddering halt as quickly as possible.
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Agreed. Which is why the blood guard Keshik only would have been enough to beat serpent but to hold onto huntress? The spirits would have needed to send 2 galaxies plus.
I suggest the blood guard keshik the beta Galaxy from that time and a provisional Galaxy such as upsilon to help hold it
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At the battle huntress would the elite keshiks of the jags have had access to ATM heavy lasers? I am unsure if they would have had a chance to trial for them before bulldog etc
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At the battle huntress would the elite keshiks of the jags have had access to ATM heavy lasers? I am unsure if they would have had a chance to trial for them before bulldog etc
No, because there is no such thing as an ATM heavy laser. :P
More seriously, ATMs become available in 3060, so it is possible, though if they were there they would be in very limited numbers. Heavy Lasers are available a year earlier so are more likely to be in use, and the numbers would be less limited - though probably still not commonplace.
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LOL thanks and for the zing on my lack of grammer. I imagine if they had survived the Jags would have been all in on the Heavy Lasers
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Did you just say that there is Clan Advance Tactical Missile and Heavy Laser loot on Huntress?
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One of my favorite parts of the Twilight of the Clans is when Ilkhan Osis belated asks the other clans for help after Task Force Serpent has defeated the garrison. He is swiftly denied by the other clans. However after finding my twilight of the Clans scenario pack I would like to revisit this. I am asking you all for campaign and story ideas. So here are some questions and I ideas I have.
• Assuming another clan did step forward at the Grand Council could or would the Wolves of the Falcons block the action via Trial of refusal?
• Personally I would love to have seen the Blood Spirits or Hells Horses jump in or even the Hellions
o Storyline wise each of these options present opportunities and challenges but I could see the then crusader Horses do it
• If a clan did help the Jaguars how much force would be required to defeat Task Serpent?
o A whole Galaxy seems like overkill but a Khan and a Khesik was not enough
• Finally if you were the Khan who saved the Jags what would you want? I would ask for:
o The design team for the protos
o Access to unique Jag designs
o I think I would pass on absorption but I am open to ideas
Here's a game scenario...
The Smoke Jaguar tech, stockpiles, industrial properties, in toto, are the stakes, because Victor's group, the Nova Cats, the Com Guards, and the Draconis Combine are holding everything else.
So, really, what is essential 'Smoke Jaguar' is; the Genetic Repository and Possession of Huntress, the homeworld. All these are capital holdings, under well-established principles of war.
A Trial of Possession, for Huntress and all Smoke Jaguar holdings on it, is not /quite/ an Absorption, but if it was demanded of the Clan Grand Council of Khans, by, say, some bright Khan who would negotiate in good faith with Morgan Hasak-Davion, Victor, Focht, Osis, ET ALL, might produce an alternate outcome, or even timeline.
2 cents, faithfully rendered.
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cleanup
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Here's a game scenario...
The Smoke Jaguar tech, stockpiles, industrial properties, in toto, are the stakes, because Victor's group, the Nova Cats, the Com Guards, and the Draconis Combine are holding everything else.
So, really, what is essential 'Smoke Jaguar' is; the Genetic Repository and Possession of Huntress, the homeworld. All these are capital holdings, under well-established principles of war.
A Trial of Possession, for Huntress and all Smoke Jaguar holdings on it, is not /quite/ an Absorption,
See this is what I am after/thinking with my scenario. Now If I remember correctorly the other clans especially the Invaders truly did not think the jags would lose and then when they did they wrote that off as a " guess they weren't that tough after all"
However a Khanny Khan should have taken advantage of the situation and the Jags clear weaknesses to seize their assets in one fell swoop. Storyline wise I am stuck on how to work that if it will be the Spirits who jump I think they might have pulled Osis aside and worked out a backroom deal. They then could have driven a very hard bargain for the support they would have given ( Fleet action, air superiority and at least 1.5 galaxy of ground troops)
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See this is what I am after/thinking with my scenario. Now If I remember correctorly the other clans especially the Invaders truly did not think the jags would lose and then when they did they wrote that off as a " guess they weren't that tough after all"
However a Khanny Khan should have taken advantage of the situation and the Jags clear weaknesses to seize their assets in one fell swoop. Storyline wise I am stuck on how to work that if it will be the Spirits who jump I think they might have pulled Osis aside and worked out a backroom deal. They then could have driven a very hard bargain for the support they would have given ( Fleet action, air superiority and at least 1.5 galaxy of ground troops)
The Spirits are a resource poor Clan so it is pbvious what they would want.
A share of the resources the Clan was supposedly extracted from the Inner Sphere.
Exploration data
A world in the Deep Periphery to call its own as it had started to isolate itself from the other Clans
Lincoln Osis wanted help....the Jags had suffered major losses but still had significant troops left, even if half of them weren't talking to the ilKhan. Huntress was occupied but at the same time the Jags had enough troops to take care of Serpent and then should have been able to arrange survival if they had to...salvage the hundreds of Mechs now littering the landscape, repair the SDS system, use what was left of the Jag fleet to deny access to Huntress.
Help would have ensured more Jags survived and they'd be in a better place. Although..to be honest...having the Jags decide to...as one example...orbitally bombard Serpent would have done the same job.
The original story Blaine told us about wasn't perfect....it would be much better IMO to have the Explorer Corps locate the homeworlds, have a naval battle to let them escape then have a chase scenario while they got the info back rather have the technobabble solution they used or the alteady tried and discreditted "capture a warship" story....but it made much more sense in many ways than this.
Capture the master repository and you can force the Clans to do a lot.
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Because in real life no group or nation is ever so short sighted they cannot adapt.
Which is why the Vikings had a prosperous settlement on Greenland that adapted to the local conditions instead of trying to cling to traditions that were obviously unsuited to the local environment and didn't die out in a couple of generations. ::)
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Which is why the Vikings had a prosperous settlement on Greenland that adapted to the local conditions instead of trying to cling to traditions that were obviously unsuited to the local environment and didn't die out in a couple of generations. ::)
The Vikings/Norse lasted almost 500 years in Greenland, and there are multiple competing theories about why they died out. Although they did not adopt Inuit seal hunting, isotopic analysis of their bones shows that the Greenland Norse were eating more and more fish as time went on, so they were adapting.
Interestingly, Inuit verbal tradition indicates that the Greenland Norse were attacked by other Europeans and abandoned their settlements afterwards, but it could have been anything from climate change to attacks by the Inuit themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greenland#Norse_failure
FWIW...
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In a situation where the jags survive but with a vastly depleted warrior caste if their new khan decides: hey those freeborns are all right! And demands that the number of Sibkos that are produced by tripled does the khan need to get any sort of approval from theur own clan council or that of the grand council?
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In a situation where the jags survive but with a vastly depleted warrior caste if their new khan decides: hey those freeborns are all right! And demands that the number of Sibkos that are produced by tripled does the khan need to get any sort of approval from theur own clan council or that of the grand council?
No. If they don't like a decision, they have the possible option of a Trial of Refusal if they can argue they are affected, or a Trial of Greivance if they just don't like the decision.
But the Khan is the Khan.
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Of course they would still need to figure out how to build enough machines for all the new warriors given their limited resources (even if they do merge with the Blood Spirits).
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Of course they would still need to figure out how to build enough machines for all the new warriors given their limited resources (even if they do merge with the Blood Spirits).
The SLDF didn't do a great job razing Huntresses factories, they had other worlds, had the option of Trialling for new machines and would have salvage options on over a thousand Mechs. It is fairly likely their bottleneck would have been pilots.
In which case, they have the possible option of opening up new Trials for Mechwarriors who had previously tested down to civilian castes or even expanding their use of freebirths.
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It would pretty unclanlike to help the jags. If anything we're more likely to see the other clans ganging up and ripping them apart.
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Yes I should have been more clear that in this scenario the spirits are acting out if self interest
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The SLDF didn't do a great job razing Huntresses factories, they had other worlds, had the option of Trialling for new machines and would have salvage options on over a thousand Mechs. It is fairly likely their bottleneck would have been pilots.w
In which case, they have the possible option of opening up new Trials for Mechwarriors who had previously tested down to civilian castes or even expanding their use of freebirths.
Factories are nice but pretty useless when they run out of raw materials. It has been clearly stated that the Jaguars were running out of the ores needed to manufacture BattleMechs and this shortage is the official reason that the Jaguar's scientist caste developed the ProtoMech.
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Factories are nice but pretty useless when they run out of raw materials. It has been clearly stated that the Jaguars were running out of the ores needed to manufacture BattleMechs and this shortage is the official reason that the Jaguar's scientist caste developed the ProtoMech.
And they'd have over 1000 Mechs available for salvage and the possibility of ProtoMechs plus whatever was still left of their own forces plus whatever they had in caches plus whatever they had on other worlds plus whatever they could Trial for.
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Did all the Protomechs get put down in the initial serpent attack? Did they coordinate at all with Russou Howell?
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And they'd have over 1000 Mechs available for salvage
Most of which were damaged beyond repair by the ferocity of the fighting and only worth salvaging parts off of.
Additionally many would have been IS 'Mechs which would have required them to specially manufacture replacement parts to return them to action (After all Jags can't exactly order them directly from the manufacturer) and would have been considered tainted by Jaguar warriors.
and the possibility of ProtoMechs
Useless for 'MechWarriors or Elementals especially the early models.
plus whatever was still left of their own forces
Which would have already been assigned pilots from their surviving forces who lost their rides defeating Serpent and the pursuing Bulldog forces (or even before), doesn't help newly graduated warriors waiting to be assigned their first ride. Of course the newly graduated warriors could try to declare ToPs for them. (Note: The Jaguars who fled the IS were forced to leave most of their Clan's reserve equipment and supplies that had been stockpiled in their OZ in preparation for the expected resumption of the Clan Invasion.)
plus whatever they had in caches
All of which would have already largely been stripped clean in their rebuilding efforts after the Clan Invasion and the Wayside debacle.
plus whatever they had on other worlds
Which wouldn't have been much or they would have been recalled to defend Huntress not to mention that the equipment would already have been assigned a pilot.
plus whatever they could Trial for.
Minus whatever they lost in Trials not just the trials you are talking about but all the Trials declared by other Clans as the Jags fought for their very survival whether for territory, technology or the entire Clan Jaguar. The Jags weren't exactly popular among the other Clans having made more than a few enemies over the centuries even among their fellow Crusaders so there would likely have been more than a few Clans hammering at the gates.
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Agreed on all points which is why I would have preferred to have the Jags absorbed. For me I like the idea of melding the solid defense mindset of the Blood Spirits with the all out Offense mindset of the Jags. Even if they had survived the 1.5 remaining galaxies would never have been enough to keep the others at bay. If they had not been absorbed they would have had to to do massive cultural changes to stay viable
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Most of which were damaged beyond repair by the ferocity of the fighting and only worth salvaging parts off of.
Leaving many which could still be salvaged and repaired.
Additionally many would have been IS 'Mechs which would have required them to specially manufacture replacement parts to return them to action
So Inner Sphere technicians can swap parts between Mechs, engage in field refits, attach Clan equipment to IS chassis and so on...but such a feat is beyond the skill of Clan technicians?
Useless for 'MechWarriors or Elementals especially the early models.
But suitable for the Aerospace phenotype.
doesn't help newly graduated warriors waiting to be assigned their first ride.
Serpent brought back large amounts of salvage...Mechs and the like...which they looted from Jaguar factories. The newly graduated warriors would get the damaged and IS Mechs while experienced warriors would get this salvage and whatever the Jaguars could produce when they restarted their factories.
All of which would have already largely been stripped clean in their rebuilding efforts after the Clan Invasion and the Wayside debacle.
Rebuilding efforts which made little use of ancient SL designs from caches. Maybe such caches had already been emptied...or maybe just not used.
Which wouldn't have been much or they would have been recalled to defend Huntress not to mention that the equipment would already have been assigned a pilot.
Some were recalled...though the fiction is unclear about that. What is not unclear is that there were significant forces that did not return to Huntress to participate in its defence. If Serpent had failed, the attacks on Tranquil and others would not have occurred.
Minus whatever they lost in Trials not just the trials you are talking about but all the Trials declared by other Clans as the Jags fought for their very survival whether for territory, technology or the entire Clan Jaguar. The Jags weren't exactly popular among the other Clans having made more than a few enemies over the centuries even among their fellow Crusaders so there would likely have been more than a few Clans hammering at the gates.
Yes. The Jags would be weakened. They would need to consolidate. They very likely would suffer losses. But they would also have victories and they would likely be able to hold onto enough to allow their short term survival.
And with the Jaguars still in play, they could have argued for the right to Absorb the Nova Cats for their treachery instead of Abjurement. Without the power vacuum of those actions, the Ghost Bears transfer of territories would have had much less opportunity for mischief. Lincoln Osis would still be ilKhan, there would be no Great Refusal and he could easily have portrayed the SLDFs loss on Huntress as a sign of their weakness and corruption and used the insult of a reformed Star League to repudiate Tukayyid.
The other Clans would have little reason to prey upon the Jaguars if they were preparing for a new invasion.
All told....there is no reason to suppose in the inevitability of the Jaguars destruction or Absorption given the likely events that would follow a defeat of Serpent.
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Tell me about this tranquil battle was this the situation a Brendan Corbett? Could you provide details and is it considered canon?
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Tell me about this tranquil battle was this the situation a Brendan Corbett? Could you provide details and is it considered canon?
This is detailed in the ten part story 'Trial Under Fire' by Loren L. Coleman. It is canon. Yes, it has a character, Brendon Corbett. He is a Jag Galaxy Commander, who attempts to establish control of the Jags on Tranquil. It follows the Inner Sphere forces tasked with eliminating him. Takes place after Huntress is 'pacified' and before Victor arrives on Strana Mechty.
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Thanks jaim! Is this avaible on battlecorps if so what volume?
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Leaving many which could still be salvaged and repaired.
No, leaving a big pile of parts that had been stripped from chassis that were damaged well beyond the point of repair.
So Inner Sphere technicians can swap parts between Mechs, engage in field refits, attach Clan equipment to IS chassis and so on...but such a feat is beyond the skill of Clan technicians?
No matter how skilled the technician, there comes a point when you need new replacement parts. If you can't manufacture or buy them, you're SOL. That was the point that a lot of the Jaguar equipment had reached or exceeded.
But suitable for the Aerospace phenotype.
Which the Jaguars did not have in abundance.
Serpent brought back large amounts of salvage...Mechs and the like...which they looted from Jaguar factories. The newly graduated warriors would get the damaged and IS Mechs while experienced warriors would get this salvage and whatever the Jaguars could produce when they restarted their factories.
IIRC, it was Bulldog, not Serpent, that brought back the majority of the salvage as Jaguar troops were fleeing so fast they wound up leaving equipment behind.
Yes. The Jags would be weakened. They would need to consolidate. They very likely would suffer losses. But they would also have victories and they would likely be able to hold onto enough to allow their short term survival.
The Jags had enemies in the Clans. Probably too many. They'd spent centuries trying to bully everyone else around, and you'd better believe that the rest of the Clans would be looking for payback with interest once the shoe was on the other foot.
And with the Jaguars still in play, they could have argued for the right to Absorb the Nova Cats for their treachery instead of Abjurement. Without the power vacuum of those actions, the Ghost Bears transfer of territories would have had much less opportunity for mischief. Lincoln Osis would still be ilKhan, there would be no Great Refusal and he could easily have portrayed the SLDFs loss on Huntress as a sign of their weakness and corruption and used the insult of a reformed Star League to repudiate Tukayyid.
That scenario basically requires the SLDF to not have attacked at all. Remember, the majority of damage inflicted on the Clan was due to Bulldog, not Serpent.
The other Clans would have little reason to prey upon the Jaguars if they were preparing for a new invasion.
Sure they would: it would eliminate an obnoxious rival that had been a problem for centuries and restore honor that had been lost in defeats at the Jaguars' hands. And it would give them the rights to Jaguar designs and the Jag's corridor, which would be an easier route than trying to form a new one from scratch.
All told....there is no reason to suppose in the inevitability of the Jaguars destruction or Absorption given the likely events that would follow a defeat of Serpent.
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I see that I can get trial under fire as a kindle but could I get it as a pdf?
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I'm not sure if it's made the transfer to the new BattleShop yet.
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Yes. The Jags would be weakened. They would need to consolidate. They very likely would suffer losses. But they would also have victories and they would likely be able to hold onto enough to allow their short term survival.
And with the Jaguars still in play, they could have argued for the right to Absorb the Nova Cats for their treachery instead of Abjurement. Without the power vacuum of those actions, the Ghost Bears transfer of territories would have had much less opportunity for mischief. Lincoln Osis would still be ilKhan, there would be no Great Refusal and he could easily have portrayed the SLDFs loss on Huntress as a sign of their weakness and corruption and used the insult of a reformed Star League to repudiate Tukayyid.
The other Clans would have little reason to prey upon the Jaguars if they were preparing for a new invasion.
All told....there is no reason to suppose in the inevitability of the Jaguars destruction or Absorption given the likely events that would follow a defeat of Serpent.
There are plenty of reasons.
Even before Serpent reached Huntress, the Jaguar touman was in the same shape than the Blood Spirits were after the Burrock absorption if not worse. Most of their frontline units in the Inner Sphere had been destroyed, captured or heavily damaged before the recall order came taking with them many of their best and brightest warriors including some of their best field commanders. Eliminating Serpent and the pursuing Bulldog units would have left them weaker than the exiled Wolves.
To make matters worse, unlike the Blood Spirits, the Jaguar holdings were spread between several different star systems which would force them to choose between spreading their surviving forces thin to garrison all their holdings or concentrating their forces but effectively abandoning most of their holdings. Either way would be an engraved invitation to neighboring Clans to move against them. Attrition would simply wear them down to nothing. Increasing their breeding program would gain them little as the results wouldn't be seen for more than a decade by which time they would be no more.
While preparing for the invasion might distract the Invading Clans there were plenty of Homeworld Clans that would look to take advantage of the Jaguars' weakness and they would have a myriad of reasons including ProtoMech technology (Blood Spirits, Cloud Cobras and Snow Ravens especially), regaining a piece of their Clans' homeworld (Cloud Cobras) or to replace them as an Invading Clan. And while the Invading Clans' attention might be focused on a renewed invasion, they are not above sending a cluster or two against the Nova Cats or Jaguars. The Jaguars made few friends over the centuries and many enemies. Few would mourn their passing.
Lincoln Osis, if he survives, may still be ilKhan but lacks the power/influence to prevent his Clan's final fall whether through a Trial of Absorption or their fellow Clans picking it apart piece by piece.
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So going back to the original premise why DID Osis go public and ask for help rather than try and cut a backdoor deal? Answers using the term " author fiat" shall be ignored : )
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Hubris?
He believed that his Clan was so important to the whole of Clan society, that the rest would fall in line and lend him the forces he needed. It's worth noting that pretty much all the Clans felt the same about themselves.
But Osis had burned his bridges, and so he and his Clan paid the price.
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Osis was always described as the silent type. While this attitude might have had roots in Smoke Jaguar Khan confusion he seldom spoke in the Grand Council. I doubt he would ask for help. In fact if I remember the novel correctly the Wolves and Jade Falcons accused him of deliberately hiding the InnerSphere assault.
Khan Ian Hawker of Clan Diamond Shark was intercepted trying to help the Jaguars by Khan Vlad Ward of the Wolves who surprised him with a challenge for his legacy. Winning that took the steam out of those relief efforts.
Osis was quite frankly out of options when he bought the Star League assault on Huntress to the attention of the Grand Council. He was seriously outmatched and in danger of losing.
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So going back to the original premise why DID Osis go public and ask for help rather than try and cut a backdoor deal? Answers using the term " author fiat" shall be ignored : )
He didn't have time and he didn't have any political capital (or material capital, for that matter) to spend. Going to the Grand Council was basically his last ditch effort.
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So going back to the original premise why DID Osis go public and ask for help rather than try and cut a backdoor deal? Answers using the term " author fiat" shall be ignored : )
Who would he have gone to? The Smoke Jaguars had NO allies. After being elected he had insulted every Homeworld Clan as being unworthy to join the Invading Clans when they restarted the invasion. Even Ian Hawker's attempt to come to their aid was more out of an attempt to shore up his own position than any real concern over the Jaguars.
Besides he would have believed that such an act as being dishonorable and a sign of weakness that would be like an invitation for the other Clans to make a move on the Jaguars once they found out what had happened. There is also a good chance that he, his Clan and the other Clan would have faced censure from the Grand Council and further punishment as well for allowing a new Clan to enter the Inner Sphere without Grand Council approval.
And technically speaking (during his first attempt) he made it seem as though he was doing the other Clans a favor by granting them the 'honor' to join the fight in the Inner Sphere (the only one who bought that was Khan Taney) rather than them doing his Clan a favor by saving his beleaguered Clan.
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Agree on all points above so let me rephrase why not keep things on the DL and ask another clan to help but away from the grand council? I would assume hubris? Did osis simply assume his post as ilkhan would give him the pull to simply demand aide?
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Agree on all points above so let me rephrase why not keep things on the DL and ask another clan to help but away from the grand council?
Because they'd have laughed him out of the room, that's why. The Jags hadn't just burned their bridges, they'd ripped out the foundations and shot all the engineers who knew anything about bridge construction while they were at it.
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He assumed an InnerSphere attack on the Clan Homeworlds would so horrify the others that they would join him in an effort to expel them.
The Jaguars always built their reputation and alliances on being the strongest bully around. However the curtain had been pulled back to reveal a dying weakling who very few saw any benefit in helping.
It was also his final card which he had to play.
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Agree on all points above so let me rephrase why not keep things on the DL and ask another clan to help but away from the grand council? I would assume hubris? Did osis simply assume his post as ilkhan would give him the pull to simply demand aide?
I believe I answered that clearly enough - sign of weakness. It would hurt his (and his Clan's) pride to ask another Clan for help and would invite attack by other Clans once they found out (if another Clans troops started fighting for the Jags how would they not find out). Besides given their lack of allies what is to stop the other Clan from saying no then letting the other Clans know that the Jags came to them begging for help? The only Clans who might say 'yes' likely don't have enough military strength to help the Jags and protect their own borders on their own. The protections that the Invading Clans enjoyed would not apply to them since the Grand Council hadn't authorized them to join the Invading Clans. Finally what concessions would the other Clan demand from the Jags in exchange for their help that wouldn't require approval from the Grand Council?
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Assuming as stated in the start of this thread that the Spirits had not jumped into the Burrock absorption and instead used their powder to " save the Jags" if they asked for and received control over factories etc would that require GC approval?
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If they are absorbing the Jags, then yes. If they are just getting some of the Jaguars' holdings then no. But all of that stuff they get they are going to have to defend from a bunch of Clans who aren't thrilled with the Spirits new allies.
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I know we are really getting into what ifs here but would the burrock/adders have been so petty as to start raiding the new sprit holdings right away? Hmmmm probable
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Something on the scale of the invasion of York? Not likely despite former Burrocks likely pushing for it. Declaring Trials of Possession for various factories? Absolutely. It would allow them to test how well the integration is going, sharpen the fangs of new warriors, potentially gain them additional manufacturing facilities, etc. More importantly that if the Blood Spirits hadn't intervened in the Burrock all parties involved would have suffered far fewer casualties so while the Spirit touman would be a lot stronger so would the Adder touman. Meanwhile the Adder leadership would likely want to start testing its new strength and making a move towards a position of within the Clans or at least replacing the Jaguars or Nova Cats in the invasion.
And it wouldn't just be the Star Adders. Other Clans would likely try to seize those facilities as well. Just look at the post-Refusal chaos in the Homeworlds as numerous Clans moved to secure former Jaguar and Nova Cat holdings.
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Soooo, just trying to get some perspective and help. I want to build a force of Jags that would seem likely during Task Force Serpent. I am interested in the survival of Russou Howell, and his remaining forces. I seem to recall his forces were Solahma, and I want to try and recreate their composition. The timeline would be before the interaction with the Society and after including/after Task Force Serpent. I read he piloted a Mad Dog. Anyone have some good insight/ideas for a guideline on what he we would be riding at the head of? I want to probably build a Binary/Trinary-sized force, and it could probably be used during the Clan Invasion as well. Thoughts?
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Well, according to Twilight of the Clans scenario pack Huntress garrison deployed units from across the spectrum including OmniMechs, Clan second-line 'Mechs, SL-era 'Mechs and BattleMechs salvaged from the IS. In addition to the two galaxies being commanded by an OmniMech Command Trinary, they also deployed a single second-line cluster (48th Battle and 33rd Assault respectively) which in turn were commanded by their own OmniMech Command Trinaries. Therefore there is no reason you can't create a standard front-line command Trinary for Russou.
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Something on the scale of the invasion of York? Not likely despite former Burrocks likely pushing for it. Declaring Trials of Possession for various factories? Absolutely. It would allow them to test how well the integration is going, sharpen the fangs of new warriors, potentially gain them additional manufacturing facilities, etc. More importantly that if the Blood Spirits hadn't intervened in the Burrock all parties involved would have suffered far fewer casualties so while the Spirit touman would be a lot stronger so would the Adder touman. Meanwhile the Adder leadership would likely want to start testing its new strength and making a move towards a position of within the Clans or at least replacing the Jaguars or Nova Cats in the invasion.
And it wouldn't just be the Star Adders. Other Clans would likely try to seize those facilities as well. Just look at the post-Refusal chaos in the Homeworlds as numerous Clans moved to secure former Jaguar and Nova Cat holdings.
See this what makes the notion of the Spirits occupation of Huntress interesting to me! After reading the Revival Trials book ( a cool read BTW) it really stressed the Spirits skill on the defense ( heck they have been holding the line real and imagined for 300 some years!) So I dig the idea of the Spirits crushing Serpant with Alpha Galaxy and or the Blood Guard but then moving in 2 or more of the Galaxies they had kept hidden until that time. Those Galaxies could hold the new gains with Alpha and the Jags acting as a ready reserve to attack. In my mind the Spirits would fortify Huntress while the other clans would have to eventually move to easier prey after the tough spirit defense
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Do we have any idea of how many young sibkos were left after Serpent? I know Victors bodyguard protected some...
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Would the clan police clusters have been a viable stop gap to pull warriors from assuming the jags had survived
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Do we have any idea of how many young sibkos were left after Serpent? I know Victors bodyguard protected some...
Not really, no. But the SLDF made efforts not to attack non-military targets, which the young sibkos wouldn't have been, so I imagine a great many of them survived... at least until the other Clans started gobbling up Jag holdings.
Would the clan police clusters have been a viable stop gap to pull warriors from assuming the jags had survived
Technically yes, as they're all failed warriors. Turn them into your garrison troops, making the former garrison troops into your frontline forces (kinda like the Wolves did after the Refusal War). However, that then means you have no one policing your civilian castes, who you have brutalized over the centuries. Expect problems to ensue.
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Any word on if non warriors ran amok after jags collapse in the homeworlds? Too fast probable...
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Would the clan police clusters have been a viable stop gap to pull warriors from assuming the jags had survived
No. After joining most of their 'warriors' have allowed their skills to critically deteriorate due to a lack of combat/training (not to mention rampant alcoholism ;)) not that they had any significant combat abilities before being forced to join a police cluster. After all their lack of combat abilities was the reason they were demoted to a position below solahma (and barely above the civilian castes) and at least solahma have a chance of an 'honorable' death in combat.
Any word on if non warriors ran amok after jags collapse in the homeworlds? Too fast probable...
No, not that there was much opportunity. The other Clans quickly moved to seize the holdings of the fallen jags and abjured nova cats after the Great Refusal. And of course running amok isn't really something a Clanner would do, not to mention that their lower castemen couldn't be sure that the Jags weren't going to survive and would retaliate or that another Clan would retaliate.
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Going back to the start of this thread. If the serpent fleet was neutralized by a supporting clan force who then started to ground 2 glaxies of troops what options would serpent have had? Or would they have tried to flee the moment they realized another clan fleet was inbound?
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Where would they go? Alamo??
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They'd probably try to bid down the forces of the invading clan. If the clan refuses the they've set themselves up as a shiny dezgra target for all the other clans itching for combat.
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The counter invaders would be seen as dezgra? Wasn't serpent seen as essential a force undeserving of zell?
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The counter invaders would be seen as dezgra? Wasn't serpent seen as essential a force undeserving of zell?
No, they went on to formally trial with all of the Clans. The whole campaign against the Jaguars was deliberate to be as Clan-esque as possible.
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No, they went on to formally trial with all of the Clans. The whole campaign against the Jaguars was deliberate to be as Clan-esque as possible.
Was that Serpent as well, or just the main Bulldog forces?
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No, they went on to formally trial with all of the Clans. The whole campaign against the Jaguars was deliberate to be as Clan-esque as possible.
Right right I forgot that. In this scenario I am having the blood spirits coming to support. Despite their very skilled warriors I think the spirits would struggle against the serpents. What do you guys think?
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I think that as Hihiro Kurita said, if they were really that strong they'd have been part of the invasion.
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The spirits never had the logistical " bench" for a massive invasion agreed unless as others have suggested they had left with everyone. The scenario I am crafting is the spirirts taking and holding huntress with the forces they had built in secret.
I would send the blood guard, alpha glaxy and a 2nd line gaxlaxy
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In my post jag saving era If the spirits had absorbed the jags I would like some suggestions on a blend of jag and spirit paint schemes. Something like iota Galaxy that would honor the jags past.
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In my post jag saving era If the spirits had absorbed the jags I would like some suggestions on a blend of jag and spirit paint schemes. Something like iota Galaxy that would honor the jags past.
Three major problems:
One, the Blood Spirits would never absorb the jags. It would be the jags who absorbed the Spirits. >:D The jags would rather die than be absorbed by a lesser Clan like the Spirits. Their egos simply wouldn't allow it. They would fight to the death.
Two, while the Spirits likely have the ground forces to seize the world and possibly hold it. It is doubtful they have the naval forces to maintain their hold on the world. After all they were forced to give their holdings on Foster to the Fire Mandrills because they lacked the naval forces to continue to support it.
Three, getting the GC to approve it would be difficult since the Sprits don't have many friends in the GC. Look what happened with the Burrock absorption. They were ignored in favor of the Star Adders. Even if they let the GC know about their secret buildup, they lack adequate naval forces to support their absorption of the Jaguars.
Not that be unable to hold Huntress would necessarily be a bad thing especially given that Huntress is running out of natural resources). After all there are three things that would/might interest the Spirits: ProtoMech tech, what remains of Huntress' manufacturing capabilities and the Jags genetic repository; all of which could be moved back to York with varying degrees of ease where they could make better use them and not have to worry about maintaining a convoy route to and from Huntress. Of course the remaining Jags would likely violently object so there is that downside.
Oh and finally I should ask whether absorbing the Jags actually counts as saving them? ;)
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Ha! I regret not putting save in quotes. I very much imagine a scenario similar to what happened to the hellions in the WOR. You make some great points about the naval issue. Which is why the spirits would need to move a lot of their fleet into huntress with an eye towards seizing as many ships as possible. A reminder this scenario would take the place of the Burrock run in
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I very much imagine a scenario similar to what happened to the hellions in the WOR.
Wouldn't happen. 'The Scorpions and Hellions were able to accomplished the merger because nobody was paying attention while everybody was closely monitoring the situation on Huntress from the moment word went out that IS forces had invaded the planet. The Jade Falcons even ordered a temporary halt to all internal trials and Bloodrights just in case they needed the warriors.
Which is why the spirits would need to move a lot of their fleet into huntress with an eye towards seizing as many ships as possible.
You do realize that the Spirits only had 5 Warships pre-Burrock Absorption and lost one in that campaign. Neither the Jags nor the SLDF are going to hand their WarShips over without a fight. Trying to take them intact means that their own fleet is going to take more damage than if they were simply trying to destroy them or drive them off and I doubt the Spirits have the shipyards or resources to quickly bring them back online.
Not to mention the moment they move against the Jag WarShips, the Jags on-planet will identify them not only as enemies but traitors to the Clans and attack them without hesitation. Other Clans would likely view them the same and would treat them the same as the Nova Cats if not worse for siding with the IS against the Clans (not because they care about the Jags being destroyed). After all up to this point no Nova Cat unit participated in the SL's assault on the Nova Cats, only former Nova Cat units moved against the Jags. ;)
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Correct arcangel but I did not mean the spirits would attempt to fight both sides. We all know how that worked out in cannon! No what I mean is that the spirits would attack
The serpents in tandem with the jags. When osis makes his reluctant plea a unit like the blood guard keshik would have been enough to crush Tsf
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Okay, let me start with a few caveats and I do not mean to start a flame war. It has been twenty plus years since I read the books. Published in print books, that is. Yes, I am that old. It took me a long time to adjust to non-hardbacks. ;)
1. Anyway, the speed with which the Jags fell seemed off. If their IS holdings could be wrapped up so quickly, the new SLDF should have been able to do the same for the entire OZ. Although, with Katrina holding the Steiner half of the FC, I can see why that was a dead issue. But, such a feat would have heavily reinforced the nascent neo-SLDF.
2. Bearing in mind that part of the invasion was due to fear of an IS invasion of Clan space, once the GC knew an IS task force or two had invaded Huntress space, I expected the Clans to go bat shit crazy and destroy the IS fleet en mass.
Back to the original idea:
1. If the Spirits do not interfere in the Burrock absorption and instead selectively trial for certain gains made by the Adders, they stay strong and add to their resources.
2. To my understanding, the GC did not learn of the Jag disaster until after Bulldog had chased away the Jag fleet remnants to Strana Mechty. By then, the Jags existed by a thread. As the Bulldog fleet headed to Strana Mechty on Osis' heels, the small Spirit fleet could have taken out what Victor left behind. He gambled heavily there. Were the Spirits joined by their allies from the Mandrills and Cobras, the space battle would have been a definite victory for the Clan forces. This would have led to a victory for their ground forces deployed afterwards.
3. Here is the conundrum, the Jags lacked forces on their homeworld at that point. Perhaps those scattered about their holdings in Clan space would be sufficient to rebuild. Osis would not have needed to make open GC announcements, but perhaps some private ones to the Spirits. Could they have pulled their disparate forces together to remain Jags?
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Okay, let me start with a few caveats and I do not mean to start a flame war. It has been twenty plus years since I read the books. Published in print books, that is. Yes, I am that old. It took me a long time to adjust to non-hardbacks. ;)
1. Anyway, the speed with which the Jags fell seemed off. If their IS holdings could be wrapped up so quickly, the new SLDF should have been able to do the same for the entire OZ. Although, with Katrina holding the Steiner half of the FC, I can see why that was a dead issue. But, such a feat would have heavily reinforced the nascent neo-SLDF.
2. Bearing in mind that part of the invasion was due to fear of an IS invasion of Clan space, once the GC knew an IS task force or two had invaded Huntress space, I expected the Clans to go bat shit crazy and destroy the IS fleet en mass.
Back to the original idea:
1. If the Spirits do not interfere in the Burrock absorption and instead selectively trial for certain gains made by the Adders, they stay strong and add to their resources.
2. To my understanding, the GC did not learn of the Jag disaster until after Bulldog had chased away the Jag fleet remnants to Strana Mechty. By then, the Jags existed by a thread. As the Bulldog fleet headed to Strana Mechty on Osis' heels, the small Spirit fleet could have taken out what Victor left behind. He gambled heavily there. Were the Spirits joined by their allies from the Mandrills and Cobras, the space battle would have been a definite victory for the Clan forces. This would have led to a victory for their ground forces deployed afterwards.
3. Here is the conundrum, the Jags lacked forces on their homeworld at that point. Perhaps those scattered about their holdings in Clan space would be sufficient to rebuild. Osis would not have needed to make open GC announcements, but perhaps some private ones to the Spirits. Could they have pulled their disparate forces together
to remain Jags?
[/quote
It is amazing to think it has been 20 years since this story came out! To your 3rd point I dont think so what ever they had left could have been gobbled up by the others. Campaign wise for me I would like to have a clan step forward in response to osis request but also state:
We will gladly offer our forces to aid the jags but as you khan osis have shown yourself unable to lead your clan you are clearly unfit to lead all the clans. " After osis is somehow defeated the clan which stepped forward then declares it will " insert standard clan boasting" and claim all remainng assets as isorla. Now do we think that would start a rush to jump in?
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1. Anyway, the speed with which the Jags fell seemed off. If their IS holdings could be wrapped up so quickly, the new SLDF should have been able to do the same for the entire OZ.
Not really, once the Jags are gone they lose both the surprise factor as well as the assistance of the co-defender (the Nova Cats) in each OZ. Couple that with the losses from Bulldog/Serpent and the other clans having time to prepare, it wouldn't be nearly as easy.
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Not really, once the Jags are gone they lose both the surprise factor as well as the assistance of the co-defender (the Nova Cats) in each OZ. Couple that with the losses from Bulldog/Serpent and the other clans having time to prepare, it wouldn't be nearly as easy.
And the next target would have been the Ghost Bears, which were a dug-in, heavily fortified target that was in the process of moving their entire military to their IS holdings. Fighting them would have been orders of magnitude more difficult than fighting the Jaguars, who were stretched thin and hurting for resources.
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And the next target would have been the Ghost Bears, which were a dug-in, heavily fortified target that was in the process of moving their entire military to their IS holdings. Fighting them would have been orders of magnitude more difficult than fighting the Jaguars, who were stretched thin and hurting for resources.
I would have thought the Jade Falcons. Especially, as the Vipers would be next given their inability to understand or get along with IS populations.
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1. Anyway, the speed with which the Jags fell seemed off. If their IS holdings could be wrapped up so quickly, the new SLDF should have been able to do the same for the entire OZ. Although, with Katrina holding the Steiner half of the FC, I can see why that was a dead issue. But, such a feat would have heavily reinforced the nascent neo-SLDF.
The key words are "should have." Politics and the peace treaty with the Clans intervened. Of course by this point the Ghost Bears had already finished moving most of their Clan to the Inner Sphere and would have fiercely defended their borders. In addition the Jags didn't defend their OZ as fiercely as the Operation Bulldog planners expected. Instead Osis ordered them to completely abandon the IS with whatever forces they could salvage. Had the GC authorized other Clans to support them they might have stayed and died in the IS instead of on Huntress given the fact that it would have taken homeworld Clans too long to organize a relief force to do any good.
2. Bearing in mind that part of the invasion was due to fear of an IS invasion of Can space, once the GC knew an IS task force or two had invaded Huntress space, I expected the Clans to go bat shit crazy and destroy the IS fleet en mass.
The GC had already decided that the Jags would stand or fall on their own. If it hadn't been clear to them that the Jags were being specifically targeted then they might very well have launched an all-out attack before/after the Jags fell.
2. To my understanding, the GC did not learn of the Jag disaster until after Bulldog had chased away the Jag fleet remnants to Strana Mechty. By then, the Jags existed by a thread. As the Bulldog fleet headed to Strana Mechty on Osis' heels, the small Spirit fleet could have taken out what Victor left behind. He gambled heavily there. Were the Spirits joined by their allies from the Mandrills and Cobras, the space battle would have been a definite victory for the Clan forces. This would have led to a victory for their ground forces deployed afterwards.
No they couldn't have. Victor was invited by GC to go to Strana Mechty under a temporary flag of truce. Doing so would have been dishonorable and would have risked punishment by the GC up to and including abjurement and annihilation. You are also forgetting that the Jade Falcons had a small outpost on Huntress which was in constant communication with Marthe Pryde throughout the planetary campaign.
3. Here is the conundrum, the Jags lacked forces on their homeworld at that point. Perhaps those scattered about their holdings in Clan space would be sufficient to rebuild. Osis would not have needed to make open GC announcements, but perhaps some private ones to the Spirits. Could they have pulled their disparate forces together to remain Jags?
Extremely unlikely. The Jags sent their best warriors to the Inner Sphere in preparation for the renewed invasion. The vast majority of those died/were captured in the Inner Sphere or fell on Huntress. Any skilled warriors/units would have been called to Huntress (or would have gone on their own). Due to their aggressive history, the Jags didn't have any friends among the other Clans and the other Clans would have either pushed for their absorption or simply moved against their holdings. Even their fellow Crusaders (including the Spirits) barely tolerated them and only because of their shared Crusader views and the Jags military strength. Don't forget that it was two Crusader Khans that forced the Jags to make their last stand on their own.
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And the next target would have been the Ghost Bears, which were a dug-in, heavily fortified target that was in the process of moving their entire military to their IS holdings. Fighting them would have been orders of magnitude more difficult than fighting the Jaguars, who were stretched thin and hurting for resources.
This was my SLDF plan to 'liberate' the Clan Occupation Zone. Next target Ghost Bear. Objective - Absorption and Integration. With the entire InnerSphere arrayed against the Bears I believe the Clan has no chance. Yes, an all out conflict devastates both sides but what about doing it Clan style?
Here is the deal. A series of trials between the Bears and the SLDF to incorporate them into the reborn Star League.
What's that your moving to the InnerSphere and making Rasalhague your home, great! Merging the Free Rasalhague Republic and Clan Ghost Bear into a single entity is extremely desirable to the Star League as it creates a bulwark against future aggression. Plus we just did a similar deal with the Nova Cats.
So we can Trial over joining the League, borders of the new Dominion, and a host of other issues both sides need to determine as Kerensky envisioned. Limited combat. What say you?
And yes I have a plan for the Crusader Wolves as well. It includes the Bears reclaiming Rasalhague territory and the Reunification of the Clan.
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The peace treaty with the Clans would have prevented any such campaign. However, lets say that there was no peace treaty. It is unlikely that they would have targeted the Bears given that the Combine was already have trouble reintegrating all the 'liberated' worlds, disarming the guerillas they had been spending the past decade arming, etc. Not to mention that the Ghost Bears had spent the past couple years moving their Clan to their IS holdings they would have fiercely defended their holdings given what happened with the Jags and, despite losing one WarShip to TF Serpent, the Bear WarShip fleet was strong.
Other issues include the FWL, the CC and the MoC likely being unwilling to risk breaking the peace treaty and hence being unwilling to support such action. Katrina would also oppose such action and demand the SL attack the Falcon-Viper OZ instead. It would also be hard to justify after Operation Bulldog already helped strengthen the Combine already and now you want the other realms to the favor the Combine again?
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At the time of Bulldog, estimates of the relative military strength in the Inner Sphere put the Bears higher than the next two leading Clans. The New Star League could theoretically have taken them, but they'd have been forewarned and prepared by the time the operation started and it would have been a very costly campaign. The FWL and CC definitely would have balked at that.
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My question always circles back to this: if serpent had wiped out or driven away by the 2nd jag wave and another clan helping what would bulldog have done?
Broadcast " give us the jags in a fair fight or get whacked"?
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It all depends guys. Let's say that the traitor Trent never made it back to ComStar with the location of the Homeworlds. Then what is enough to end the Clan threat? A Clan must die... ok but you can't finish the Jaguars per say so my what if begins there. [The Star League was out to annihilate the Smoke Jaguars and they had sufficient reason, I doubt anyone could have escaped]
Wolf-in-Exile has already joined the InnerSphere and all indications are that Nova Cat will do the same. So why not just absorb the Clans in the InnerSphere? The Successor States have been salvaging their ways through the Succession Wars for quite awhile so why not just harvest some Clans? The Smoke Jaguar operation forcing them from the InnerSphere would then be followed by the Bear-Rasalhague Trials, Wolf Reunification, and lastly the ejection of Jade Falcon/Steel Viper.
The Invading Clans would become the Star League Clans, part of the SLDF sworn to defend the Second Star League. Good luck trying to leave anyone! ;)
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Why would any of the Crusader Clans agree to that?
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I would have thought the Jade Falcons. Especially, as the Vipers would be next given their inability to understand or get along with IS populations.
The thing to remember there though is that it sends the wrong message to wipe out the Falcons. A few years earlier, absolutely. A few years later, good case to be made. But at that point? No.
Thing is, Bulldog/Serpent was an attempt to not just wipe out a Clan, but to send a strong message. That the Inner Sphere, united, can take your most powerful force and wipe the floor with it. Why? Because that's how the Clans work- might makes right. So you take the most powerful target and take it head-on, and show them with their own logic that you are not to be trifled with.
So who do you go after?
+The Bears and Wolves sit with occupation zones flanked on both sides by other Clans, so if your gamble doesn't work and the other Clans jump in you're surrounded on all sides.
+The Bears are at this point pretty staunchly Warden, so taking them on isn't really helping anything. The move to the Inner Sphere isn't known yet, to be fair, but that political leaning means they're a bad target.
+The Wolves are split in two, with the Warden side being allies to the cause- going after their former brethren in the OZ could sour the relationship with the Wardens, even show them that the Inner Sphere can't be trusted at all- and that could have ramifications with other Warden Clans, perhaps even leaning them the other direction. They also have a problem similar to the Falcons (more on that shortly)
+The Sharks are at this point not selling weapons yet to the Inner Sphere, at least not openly, but they also don't really have IS holdings at this point. Wiping them out accomplishes nothing.
That leaves us with the two 'outer' OZs, each of which has two Clans living there. In both situations, the two don't get along particularly well. The Cats proved willing to not only stay out of helping the Jaguars, they even joined in- it's unlikely in the extreme the Vipers would have done the same against the Jade Falcons.
But that leaves us with one more important point. Remember, MIGHT MAKES RIGHT in Clan society. In 3050, there's a case to be made for the Falcons being the mightiest of the Crusader Clans- if the Jaguars are a tie with them in terms of raw military force, the Falcons take a hefty lead with their more robust economy. But by the time we brew up Bulldog/Serpent, the Falcons have had a rough go of it. The Refusal War put a serious hurt on the Falcons, losses that weren't made any easier by the failure to absorb the Crusader Wolves afterwards (thanks, Vlad). The lash-out by Marthe Pryde at Coventry was a bold statement that her Clan wasn't as wounded as it looked, but that they took the hegira option and withdrew only underlined the fact that the Falcons were still very much below 100% strength. (That they rebuilt as they did in time for their part in the Civil War is very interesting, but at this point off in the future still)
So. You have two real options. Jaguars, who haven't really had any major conflict since Tukayyid and are at full strength and raring to go, or the Falcons, who have had their noses bloodied a few times recently. Going after the Falcons tells the rest of the Clans that you'll jump on an already-wounded opponent- and shows them that the Inner Sphere's nations are nothing but jackals who will take opportunities, but are afraid to fight a healthy Clan. But the Jaguars? This Clan is at full strength, the losses from the invasion, Tukayyid, and such are long since made up. Hell, they're readying an attack on the Combine, even! (The knowledge of that, and of the Jaguars' lack of resources back home, is likely unknown to the Inner Sphere, to be fair)
The Jaguar choice, then, is clear. You take on a Clan at full strength rather than a wounded animal. You take on a Clan that wouldn't have their roommate in the OZ jump in on their behalf. You take on a Clan that, if they talk the others into helping, won't leave you cut off entirely from help. And you show the Clans in-general that you're a serious opponent. I'm not sure, in 3059, if wiping out the Falcons would have accomplished those goals.
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My question always circles back to this: if serpent had wiped out or driven away by the 2nd jag wave and another clan helping what would bulldog have done?
TF Serpent was on the verge of being wiped out when the reinforcements from TF Bulldog arrived and saved them.
The questions for your scenario remain: why would another Clan save them and would the other Clans allow them to save them? After all the Khan Hawker tried to send a force to help the Jags in a desperate (and likely futile) attempt to shore up his own failing position but Khan Vlad intervened. Even before TF Serpent attacked Huntress, more than a few Clans were likely considering calling for the Jags absorption. Not since the Diamond Sharks' embarrassing defeat on Tukayyid had a Clan suffered such a crippling and humiliating defeat.
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Right! So why didn't another clan try to absorb them?
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The stink of failure.
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And Victor's forces showed up and killed the rest of them off before anyone could really get serious about doing so.
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Right! So why didn't another clan try to absorb them?
The GC had already decided that the fight was the Jags to win or lose on their own. If they were to survive they had to win with their own strength. Relying on another Clan's strength would simply reinforce the fact that they were unworthy of surviving as a Clan. Besides there wasn't exactly enough time to call for a vote of absorption, chose a Clan, assemble the forces, etc before the Bulldog reinforcements arrived. More than a couple Clans were likely already making plans to call for their absorption if they survived their fight with TF Serpent or to start taking Jag holdings if they lost (which various Clans did). Several weaker Clans were likely hoping for a free-for-all so they could take their own piece of the pie.
Edit: Correction made.
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My question always circles back to this: if serpent had wiped out or driven away by the 2nd jag wave and another clan helping what would bulldog have done?
Broadcast " give us the jags in a fair fight or get whacked"?
And the answer will always be the same...
IF the Jags had managed to defeat Serpent, there would have been no point to Bulldog landing on Huntress. The Jags likely needed only a short breathing space to get their SDS system up and running and we know they had forces elsewhere in the Cluster. Corbett took a strong force with him to Tranquil for some reason.
Victors forces were a rescue mission - if there was no one to rescue, their best option would be to let the rest of the Clans predate on the Jags.
Would the Jags have survived? It's possible, but only if the other Clans don't gang up on them. If the other Clans kept initiating Trial after Trial after Trial, then they'd fold. But they'd have ten regiments of Inner Sphere salvage, nearly four Galaxies of salvage of their own and Serpent did not manage to destroy every factory even in the official timeline. They'd also have thousands of lower caste truebirths they could tap as troops and the support of the ilKhan. Not to mention the forces they still had available elsewhere in the Cluster who could be redeployed, and the various Brian and naval caches we know they still had.
And the other Clans could easily have been distracted by the Trials for the Nova Cats and Ghost Bears.
The Jags would definitely lose territory. Whether they would be destroyed in such a scenario is debateable and depends on several factors we can only guess at.
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Would the Jags really resort to use lower caste warriors in mass?
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Would the Jags really resort to use lower caste warriors in mass?
No, they shunned the use of freeborn warriors. One of the few Clans not to have any at all.
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No, they shunned the use of freeborn warriors. One of the few Clans not to have any at all.
It was pretty much them and the Vipers, right?
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No, they shunned the use of freeborn warriors. One of the few Clans not to have any at all.
I was talking about rejected trueborns.
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I was talking about rejected trueborns.
Still no, because those trueborn were failures. Allowing non-warriors to fight goes against their rigid sense of what Clan society is meant to be.
It was pretty much them and the Vipers, right?
I feel like you could add the Mandrills and Spirits to that list.
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The Jags likely needed only a short breathing space to get their SDS system up and running and we know they had forces elsewhere in the Cluster.
Says who? The DEST team crippled the SDS command center. It is doubtful that the Jags just happen to have all the parts needed to replace it and the techs/engineers capable of programming it standing by. After all the SDS is a weapon of last resort for any Clan commander.
Victors forces were a rescue mission - if there was no one to rescue, their best option would be to let the rest of the Clans predate on the Jags.
While it might be the 'best' option, would Victor really do that or would he continue the plan for the Star League to destroy the Jags and hopefully persuade the Clans to end the invasion?
Would the Jags have survived? It's possible, but only if the other Clans don't gang up on them. If the other Clans kept initiating Trial after Trial after Trial, then they'd fold. But they'd have ten regiments of Inner Sphere salvage, nearly four Galaxies of salvage of their own and Serpent did not manage to destroy every factory even in the official timeline. They'd also have thousands of lower caste truebirths they could tap as troops and the support of the ilKhan. Not to mention the forces they still had available elsewhere in the Cluster who could be redeployed, and the various Brian and naval caches we know they still had.
Even if they allowed them how would it take for them to get those conscripted trueborns up to a level capable of competing with another Clans' warriors? They would have been forced out at varying times during their training with some never even have made it to their field training stage. Not to mention the wide range of ages possible.
And the other Clans could easily have been distracted by the Trials for the Nova Cats and Ghost Bears.
What Trials? Without the Great Refusal the Nova Cats wouldn't have necessarily been abjured and the Ghost Bears might or might not have revealed what they had been up to.
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Still no, because those trueborn were failures. Allowing non-warriors to fight goes against their rigid sense of what Clan society is meant to be.
Yes, that is what I thought. And I also don't think that the Jags would try to get Trueborn warriors from other Clans (at that required scale), so even if they do survive the SLDF, then they would just end up being absorbed.
I feel like you could add the Mandrills and Spirits to that list.
For normal combat the Spirit forces were purely trueborn, but in some scenarios they did give weapons to their civilians. Which was one of the reasons why they were annihilated.
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I feel like you could add the Mandrills and Spirits to that list.
For the Mandrills it depends upon the Kindraa some allowed them otherd did notwhile Spirits did train freeborns even if only to protect York.
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While it might be the 'best' option, would Victor really do that or would he continue the plan for the Star League to destroy the Jags and hopefully persuade the Clans to end the invasion?
Victor would have had to have done the latter: he knew the Clans well enough to know that to chase the Jaguars all that way and then fail to finish them off would have been seen as a weakness and removed a lot of the legitimacy of his actions in their eyes.
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I feel like you could add the Mandrills and Spirits to that list.
Spirits and Mandrills also had much smaller toumans, forcing out freeborn warriors. Vipers and Jags had larger toumans and barred freeborn warriors for ideological reasons instead of pragmatic ones.
It's probably been mentioned before in this thread, but the Jags had military power, but not the political finesse to create an environment that benefited them. The Falcons and Wolves had made political moves to absorb warrior from other Clans, and the Jags should really have done the same thing, maybe even on a bigger scale.
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The Falcons and Wolves had made political moves to absorb warrior from other Clans, and the Jags should really have done the same thing, maybe even on a bigger scale.
The Jags did but they were really picky so often they went after the best which meant the opposing Clan defended the warrior with their best. SJ Galaxy Commander Mikhail Ward was one such warrior.
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The GC had already decided that the fight was the Jags to win or lose on their own. If they were to survive they had to win with their own strength. Relying on another Clan's strength would simply reinforce the fact that they were unworthy of surviving as a Clan. Besides there was exactly enough time to call for a vote of absorption, chose a Clan, assemble the forces, etc before the Bulldog reinforcements arrived. More than a couple Clans were likely already making plans to call for their absorption if they survived their fight with TF Serpent or to start taking Jag holdings if they lost (which various Clans did). Several weaker Clans were likely hoping for a free-for-all so they could take their own piece of the pie.
Exactly!
What I would choose as my scenario setting is home clan crusader stepping up to demand osis step down and the right to absorb the jags.
I don't think this newly buffed clan would become an invader but do think it could have carved out a solid homeworld enclave
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Actually didn't catch the error before I posted (Correction made above). There wasn't enough time for the Clans to call for an absorption unless they started the process before TF Serpent even arrived on Huntress. Once they arrived the GC would have waited to do anything until the outcome was clear. To interfere in the Jag vs SL (like the Spirits did in the Burrock Absorption) would have been dishonorable. Besides there were likely a couple of Khans who were enjoying the perverse pleasure of watching the arrogant Jags be taken apart piece by piece by their supposed inferiors.
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The Jags did but they were really picky so often they went after the best which meant the opposing Clan defended the warrior with their best. SJ Galaxy Commander Mikhail Ward was one such warrior.
Precisely. They should have leveraged their superior combat abilities to seize entire Trinaries instead of talented individuals. Again, the ideology did them in.
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Still no, because those trueborn were failures. Allowing non-warriors to fight goes against their rigid sense of what Clan society is meant to be.
Which never stopped the Clans recruiting the lower castes into their militaries before. The only Clan we know of with a Trueborn only policy were the Vipers.
They wouldn't let Technicians Joe and Bloggs fight but slap a warriors uniform on them?
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It was known that the Jaguars had a trueborn-only policy before it was known about the Vipers. As one of the most die-hard conservative clans, it would have been unthinkable to them to allow lower castes to fight. Not to mention that given how poorly the Jaguars tended to treat their lower castes, such a plan could have easily backfired.
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It was known that the Jaguars had a trueborn-only policy before it was known about the Vipers. As one of the most die-hard conservative clans, it would have been unthinkable to them to allow lower castes to fight. Not to mention that given how poorly the Jaguars tended to treat their lower castes, such a plan could have easily backfired.
True enough. Handing angry lower-castemen tanks and such and saying 'Go kill the people trying to liberate you!' is a little crazy, even by Jag standards.
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Very true
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Do we have any idea on how many protos actually fought on huntress? And to confirm they were all KIA by the time osis made his appeal to the council right?
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Do we have any idea on how many protos actually fought on huntress?
I believe that protos were included in the listing of Jaguar forces that fought on Huntress in Twilight of the Clans.
And to confirm they were all KIA by the time osis made his appeal to the council right?
Confirmation that they were all KIA? No nothing of the sort exists. Was attrition among them horrible? Yes, aside from the fact they were Jags fighting in defense of their homeworld, they were also Clan trueborns who had been facing relegation to the lower castes.
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And they were fighting in an untested weapon system, with designs that were intended for proof-of-concept rather than actual combat.
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Crazy idea: What is somebody in the Taskforce shot at a different Clan? Would that give that Clan enough grounds to intervene?
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Someone in the Task Force shot at a guard at the Jade Falcon research station. The Falcons intervened long enough to kill him specifically, then went back to not caring.
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Someone in the Task Force shot at a guard at the Jade Falcon research station. The Falcons intervened long enough to kill him specifically, then went back to not caring.
How big would the incident need to be for another Clan to not stop?
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Someone in the Task Force shot at a guard at the Jade Falcon research station. The Falcons intervened long enough to kill him specifically, then went back to not caring.
That really is the best reaction you could ask for, comically. "Hey, so, ah, which one of you shot at us? Come on, hold up your rifles. HOLD THEM UP. Yeah, yours is still warm. Hey, Bob? Shoot this nimrod and let's go home. *KABLOOEY* Ohhhh man, his head went all kersplaaaat!... ok, time for a bagel, you all have fun killing Jaguars and such, toodles!"
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How big would the incident need to be for another Clan to not stop?
Something along the lines of Serpent actually attacking another Clan's planet, most likely. They probably could have gotten away with taking the Falcon outpost: Marthe Pryde certainly didn't seem to care much about it.
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Something along the lines of Serpent actually attacking another Clan's planet, most likely. They probably could have gotten away with taking the Falcon outpost: Marthe Pryde certainly didn't seem to care much about it.
Yup another clan would have to have really wanted to become involved. As stated before no one had any love for the jags. A clan like the horses spirits or hellions would have only jumped in to enrich themselves.
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If in my scenario say the blood spirits wiped out serpent and reclaimed the jags genetic repository with the Jag remains what if any of the following could they claim as the victors:
1) Any salvage
2) Several " production runs" of prized sibkos
By my understanding and correct me if I am wrong the Clans have the ability to mass produce warriors but they are limited by the trainers, time and equipment of the clan itself right?
So could the Spirits demand " Give me 2 sibkos of Osis with a side of Moon elementals"
Not claiming the blood right but the actual sibkos new babies or young tykes
3) The actual blood rights
If the jags lost a refusal trial could the Spirits claim the exclusive blood lines or did that still need GC approval?
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Should we assume that by the fall of huntress all of the jags SLDF stuff had been burned through?
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Pretty much. They were desperate for war materiel, hence ProtoMechs.
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Should we assume that by the fall of huntress all of the jags SLDF stuff had been burned through?
No, I'd imagine they'd be seen plenty. The Jaguars took heavy losses at Luthien and Tukayyid that would have been filled, at least in the short-term, with material transferred from the Homeworlds. That would create a new emphasis on second-line Clan designs and whatever SLDF material they could pull from the Caches until the situation stabilized and production caught up, which we know it never quite did. It's demonstrated in a couple places that the OZ got the finest equipment while everyone else had to make-do with whatever they could.
ProtoMechs were designed more in response to an anticipated need for resource-efficient war material due to Scientist Caste projections of impending resource-depletion across the Jaguar holdings.
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I don't think the Protomechs were created for an anticipated need, I think it was because they were currently suffering from resource shortages over years of economic mismanagement and heavy materials losses (including the loss of an entire front line Galaxy that had heavily cannibalized other units to get up to full strength).
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I don't think the Protomechs were created for an anticipated need, I think it was because they were currently suffering from resource shortages over years of economic mismanagement and heavy materials losses (including the loss of an entire front line Galaxy that had heavily cannibalized other units to get up to full strength).
So, the History of the ProtoMech section in TRO3060 can also be read that way, too. It mentions both the tenacity of the DCMS and the recent havoc they were wreaking on the Jags, as well as the findings of the Scientists "in the latter part of thirtieth century" that Jaguar worlds would soon be barren, and that REVIVAL could potentially leave the Jags behind without some kind of innovation, which lead to the ProtoMech.
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Agreed. Everything i have read tells me that the jags chronically burned through material but against the dcms they could never really recoupe their losses
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If serpent was wiped out but bull dog happened as in cannon would the clams have tried to reclaim the jag OZ?
How hard of a nut would those newly reclaimed worlds have been?
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If serpent was wiped out but bull dog happened as in cannon would the clams have tried to reclaim the jag OZ?
Without the Great Refusal, yes. Once they decide who would replace the Jags and Nova Cats (who would likely invoke Trial of Refusal adding further delays.)
How hard of a nut would those newly reclaimed worlds have been?
Depends upon the situation. The SLDF deployed units (DCMS and other league units) aren't going to wait there forever especially those battered during Bulldog. Eventually they are going to leave the area weakening the Combine's border defenses and the SL may not be in a position to quickly redeploy units back to the area if at all if say the Clans return while the SL is attacking the Jade Falcons. While the Combine established a strong resistance network behind enemy lines, they would have wanted to re-establish their hold and tried to reclaim all the weapons they provided which the locals wouldn't have been willing to simply hand over leading to relations between the two taking a turn for the worse and weakening the network when the Clans did return.
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In the context of my scenario where the blood spirits jump into the battle for huntress I have an aerospace bidding question:
If the spirits only sent the blood guard which is a cluster in size how would they bid around the warship assess needed to run the blockade?
At that point it would have been a Cameron and like three other warships
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Lack of naval support is something the Spirits were adept at working around in the Burrock Absorption. Even with six warships it seems like they were able to outmaneuver their opponents and make it to the battlefield without many casualties. Compared to the thirty warships they faced (5 to 1) they only lost two vessels.
Now likely they trained for this type of offensive, in particular against Burrock, and were some what prepared to overcome the shortcoming. Also the confusion of the moment likely worked against the Adders and Burrocks who were shocked by the assault no doubt. It worked for this insistence but....
It probably caught up with them over time. Adders were prepared to deal with any diversions and distractions they pulled from there on out likely using their numerical superiority to the greatest advantage.
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Classic sleight of hand. Make a distraction with one hand so nobody pays attention with what the other hand is doing. In the Burrock Absorption, they didn't have to create one, the Burrocks and Star Adders were creating the distraction for them and with the Blood Spirits being so isolated nobody really paid attention to what they are doing anyways. After all who would think that anybody would interfere with an Absorption trial that had been sanctioned by the Grand Council. The cherry might be that the BS Khan and her personal Keshik stayed out of the fight so as to help achieve surprise.
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Thanks for the narrative suggestions. Please refresh my memory: by the time ISIS asked for help could any clan warships have arrived in time to help the navy of the jags that cane from the OZ? That would be the fleet headed up by the liberator?
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Even the Jags wouldn't work with ISIS....
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Thanks for the narrative suggestions. Please refresh my memory: by the time ISIS asked for help could any clan warships have arrived in time to help the navy of the jags that cane from the OZ? That would be the fleet headed up by the liberator?
Yes, Osis, asked for help before the OZ fleet arrived.
For a quick reference, the following systems are within a single jump from Huntress:
Strana Mechty
Ironhold
Foster
And 2 jumps:
Atreus
Marshall
Lum
Shadow
Strana Mechty likely had a variety of warships coming and going over it. Ironhold being the Jade Falcon capital likely had some warships over it. And Lum, being the Snow Raven capital, likely had a lot of warships over it. Just to add to everything, York is about 5 jumps away.
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Thanks for the info on the jump points! So the blood guard could have gotten there ASAP but how long would 5 jumps take? Could the spirits do a command circuit? I would not think so...
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Well a command circuit only works for ground forces, and hypothetically the Blood Spirits could do it with Snow Raven help - jump to Brim (using LFB), deal/fight for use of jumpships, then jump to Strana Mechty (again using LFB), then get to Huntress. Total time taken would probably be in the neighborhood of a couple of days, though a very well planned operation could take as little as a few hours. The downside to this is a lack of escorts, with SLDF warships in orbit, running the gauntlet would have been a bad idea.
Getting warships there will take a lot longer, especially if you don't want to risk the warship K-F drive breaking. Getting there in absolute safety means 2 jumps (using LFB), then "quick" charging the drive three times (175 hours each), and totaling about 22 days - too long to make much difference. This time can be cut down by risking both failure and damage to the K-F drive, personally I wouldn't risk anything more than a +2 control roll modifier, meaning that the "quick" charge time would be reduced to 100 hours per charge, with an end result of about 13 days. This wouldn't have been enough to make a difference in the naval battle, as that is already over at this point, but the warships could threaten those of Task Force Serpent's enough for a stalemate, and with the Bull Dog survivors arriving things would have started to look much better.
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Hmmm so when Osis asked for the various khans for their body guard units that was a practical response as they would have been the closets to huntress...
Ok a few more background questions. Keeping in mind in this scenario the spirits have not totally isolated themselves they would have had forced on Arcadia and perhaps foster? How close are those planets to huntress?
Also what transport and escort resources would the blood guard have access to? They are an elite cluster of all heavy and assault mechs.
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Ok a few more background questions. Keeping in mind in this scenario the spirits have not totally isolated themselves they would have had forced on Arcadia and perhaps foster? How close are those planets to huntress?
Foster is within a Jump, so if you assume roughly a week in-system transit time, then you could get whatever is there on Huntress in about 10-12 days - faster is possible, but higher thrust levels would likely degrade the troop's performance significantly. Arcadia is further away than York is, clocking in at 8 jumps. As for the number of troops on each of these planets, Arcadia probably would have roughly a galaxy. Foster would be dependent on how much they control, and my estimate would set it at roughly a cluster per 10% to a maximum of a galaxy. Given their low number of warships, Arcadia might have one, but Foster probably wouldn't.
Also what transport and escort resources would the blood guard have access to? They are an elite cluster of all heavy and assault mechs.
Generally speaking, most front line units we have information for which includes their transport assets have nearly double the carrying capacity for what is required. The command units also often have warship support of some kind, and usually more than enough jumpships. So an Overlord-C, 2 Union-Cs, 3 Broadswords/Leopard-Cs with 2 Star Lord jumpships and a warship wouldn't be unreasonable, given your modifications to canon. A pair of older assault ships is also possible.
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However, the Blood Spirits are unlikely to have permanently assigned a WarShip to the Blood Guard Keshik especially in the given scenario of them not having intervened in the Burrock Absorption. After all they had previously sold most of their WarShip fleet to the Snow Ravens and would have been stretched extremely thin defending both their Homeworld and their shipping routes from predation by other Clans. If anything the Blood Spirits would have temporarily assigned them to support the Galaxies moving to support the Jags and the Blood Guard Keshik would perhaps join up with them enroute (if they went at all).
Please note that any command circuit would have to be set up ahead of time to ensure that the ships were fully charged when the fleet of DropShips reached them. It is doubtful that the Blood Spirits had enough JumpShips to set up such a command circuit. In addition it wouldn't help get the escorting WarShips there any faster and they would quickly be left behind unless they went ahead of the ground forces.
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Yes the spirits small navy would be a problem
And I agree command circuits are out. If the jags accosted aid it would have to come from the blood guard who were on strana mechty they are a five trinary cluster. They could hitch a ride on the streaking mist osiss command ship.
Any aerospace assets the spirits could bring I think would have been a big help.
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They traded three Warships to the Snow Ravens. So they didn't have a large navy in the first place as compared to some.
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Sorry about alll the typos. Doing this one handed on a phone with a baby in the other. If the jags willingly accepted the blood guard’s help what would have been the politically acceptable place to use them? I cannot imagine the jags would allow the spirits to reclaim their genetic repository... perhaps the guard could be used to assault the IS bases and staging areas? That would take the pressure off the jags and left them reclaim their command area faster.
For the sake of story I would allot one spirit warship
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For my part i always wondered that a single civilian jump ship stumbling over the home worlds could kick off the whole invasion thing out of fear what could happen - but an IS coalition force attacking one of the clan capitals was excepted from everyone.
The logical reaction in my eyes would have been to annihilate all IS forces with all the clans could muster. Just like to stir up a hornet's nest. A clear statement to all IS forces - stay away from our worlds.
Surely directly followed by the annihilation of the Jags as they lead the way to the homeworlds obviously.
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• Assuming another clan did step forward at the Grand Council could or would the Wolves of the Falcons block the action via Trial of refusal?
• Personally I would love to have seen the Blood Spirits or Hells Horses jump in or even the Hellions
o Storyline wise each of these options present opportunities and challenges but I could see the then crusader Horses do it
• If a clan did help the Jaguars how much force would be required to defeat Task Serpent?
o A whole Galaxy seems like overkill but a Khan and a Khesik was not enough
• Finally if you were the Khan who saved the Jags what would you want? I would ask for:
o The design team for the protos
o Access to unique Jag designs
o I think I would pass on absorption but I am open to ideas
A bit late to the party here but a couple thoughts.
1. The ONLY clan I can think of that would actually help for ANY reason other than disgust that the IS had arrived in the homeworlds would be the Blood Spirits. They have that "we should all work together" origin story & this might be there chance to have the Jags indebted to them as allies.
2. Task Force Serpent was mostly gone, & added help from the Spirits would crush it, but, defeating the Bull Dog following force is going to require a lot of firepower. A couple Galaxies at least IMHO.
3. The Spirits are likely going to ask for everything there is on Protos as well as Omnimechs & plans for any other cheap units they don't already have an resources to make good on their losses.
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1. The ONLY clan I can think of that would actually help for ANY reason other than disgust that the IS had arrived in the homeworlds would be the Blood Spirits.
I think there are many more reasons for other clans to do so. For example take a look at the Star Adders. They argued that the planing for Operation Revival was flawed from the beginning. They argued that the Clans would need much more forces to crush the IS.
And now the IS is attacking the homeworlds. What better reasons to show all the clans their failure and start a coordinated attack?
Thats just one more reason of many ...
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Storyline wise I get it. The jags had painted themselves into a corner by acting for centuries as big jerks. Once they could no longer back they up with overwhelming milatry force they had no resources or allies to fall back on
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Indeed, the big problem with the Jags is that really, by the time REVIVAL comes around, its too late to save them. They have zero friends, only a handful of Frenemies and pretty much everyone else hates them. Industrially they are a 3rd rate Clan, and its only through raw power and brute force and constantly taking from everyone around them that they retain that position, otherwise they'd be as weak as the Scorpions were.
What you'd need, ideally without changing them too much is for a 'moderate' Khan to come to power and hold it for a good few decades before the rise of Leo Showers to power (perhaps have Showers kill him/her in a Trial or something and assume Khanship that way). this more moderate figure could try to expand the Jags industry, seeing how weake his/her Clan is in this field, and try to make improvements in the Tourman by building things themsleves instead of having everything on Huntress and just taking everything they couldn't make.
So after 20 odd years under this Khan, they have built up a bit more and are producing more equipment (and thanks to their runiously high casualty rate for Sibko's probably have enough spare to trade) and have even managed to enlarge their Tourman somewhat, making them better suited to absorb the attrition they would suffer during REVIVAL. The losses on Wolcott and Luthien mauled the Jaguars Tourman and Tukkayid broke it beyond repair, and without that strength, they couldn't bully the other Clans around into giving them more stuff. Having a larger industrial base might well help offset this. Perhaps strengthening the naval tourman (reactivating and renaming the Quicksilver Mongoose for example) can go hand in hand with this.
But this needs to happen decades before REVIVAL. Anything after is simply too late as the Jags are already in a death spiral as soon as they invade.
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Indeed, the big problem with the Jags is that really, by the time REVIVAL comes around, its too late to save them. They have zero friends, only a handful of Frenemies and pretty much everyone else hates them. Industrially they are a 3rd rate Clan, and its only through raw power and brute force and constantly taking from everyone around them that they retain that position, otherwise they'd be as weak as the Scorpions were.
What you'd need, ideally without changing them too much is for a 'moderate' Khan to come to power and hold it for a good few decades before the rise of Leo Showers to power (perhaps have Showers kill him/her in a Trial or something and assume Khanship that way). this more moderate figure could try to expand the Jags industry, seeing how weake his/her Clan is in this field, and try to make improvements in the Tourman by building things themsleves instead of having everything on Huntress and just taking everything they couldn't make.
So after 20 odd years under this Khan, they have built up a bit more and are producing more equipment (and thanks to their runiously high casualty rate for Sibko's probably have enough spare to trade) and have even managed to enlarge their Tourman somewhat, making them better suited to absorb the attrition they would suffer during REVIVAL. The losses on Wolcott and Luthien mauled the Jaguars Tourman and Tukkayid broke it beyond repair, and without that strength, they couldn't bully the other Clans around into giving them more stuff. Having a larger industrial base might well help offset this. Perhaps strengthening the naval tourman (reactivating and renaming the Quicksilver Mongoose for example) can go hand in hand with this.
But this needs to happen decades before REVIVAL. Anything after is simply too late as the Jags are already in a death spiral as soon as they invade.
Agreed. I would love to see the spirits absorb the jags and have Brandon Howell serve in a senior role
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Agreed. I would love to see the spirits absorb the jags and have Brandon Howell serve in a senior role
Blood Spirits didn't care for the Jaguars nor did the Jags care about the Blood Spirits. As far as the Blood Spirits were concerned, the Jags were just as corrupt as the rest. As far as the Jags were concerned, the Blood Spirits were even further beneath them than most other Clans. The Jags collapse would simply reinforce the Blood Spirits' belief that their corruption led to their defeat and absorbing living warriors would risk absorbing their corruption whether it be actual corruption or simply new ideas that would undermine their esprit de corps (for example, Jag warriors were far more likely to challenge their superiors over minor issues than a Spirit warrior).
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The Jaguars were basically the exact opposite of esprit de corps.
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Not so. The Jaguars found great commonality in their love to persecute everyone equally. Freebirths, Spheroids, Clansmen from other Clans, fellow Jaguars who failed by questionable definitions/reasons/were too old...
Yes, I'm joking.
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Blood Spirits didn't care for the Jaguars nor did the Jags care about the Blood Spirits. As far as the Blood Spirits were concerned, the Jags were just as corrupt as the rest. As far as the Jags were concerned, the Blood Spirits were even further beneath them than most other Clans. The Jags collapse would simply reinforce the Blood Spirits' belief that their corruption led to their defeat and absorbing living warriors would risk absorbing their corruption whether it be actual corruption or simply new ideas that would undermine their esprit de corps (for example, Jag warriors were far more likely to challenge their superiors over minor issues than a Spirit warrior).
All true however while the spirits hated and loathed the burrocks with the power of a 10000 suns they still expected to be the next ones to absorb them. The burrocks were the worst example of the corruption of the way of the clans to the spirits but they still wanted to absorb them.
What I propose is a more pragmatic choice for the spirits: the absorption of the jags would offer new resources, tech and warrior lines that they would never have accces to. The jags would not be in much of position to refuse!
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All true however while the spirits hated and loathed the burrocks with the power of a 10000 suns they still expected to be the next ones to absorb them. The burrocks were the worst example of the corruption of the way of the clans to the spirits but they still wanted to absorb them.
The absorption would have turned into an annihilation like the Jaguar absorption of Clan Mongoose. However, unlike the Jags who kept the Mongoose genes as a trophy, the Spirits would likely have disposed of all of Clan Burrock's genes whether in combat, using clorine or simply turning off the power to the storage facilities.
What I propose is a more pragmatic choice for the spirits: the absorption of the jags would offer new resources, tech and warrior lines that they would never have accces to. The jags would not be in much of position to refuse!
The Jags certainly wouldn't have turned down an offer by the Burrocks for them to join Clan Jaguar. :D (Actually they might have.)
Pride (and even moreso "wounded" pride) has often driven the Clans, especially the Jaguars, to make foolish decisions. The destruction of Edo after Hohiro's escape nearly resulted in them being sidelined, when confronted by Hohiro on Wolcott despite his own misgivings the Jag Commander agreed to Hohiro's terms and it cost him his life, in order to regain face lost in the invasion (and to humiliate the Clan Wolf) the Jags reduced the number of troops deployed to Tukayyid effectively costing them victory before they even reached the battlefield, etc.
As the saying goes:"Pride goeth before a fall" and the Jaguars were a very prideful Clan.
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• Assuming another clan did step forward at the Grand Council could or would the Wolves of the Falcons block the action via Trial of refusal?
Yes both Clans have the right to refuse any action taken by another Clan.
• Personally I would love to have seen the Blood Spirits or Hells Horses jump in or even the Hellions
I really would have liked the see Ghost Bear jump in. (or at least say ONE word during the council meeting) it is on their border after all.
• If a clan did help the Jaguars how much force would be required to defeat Task Serpent?
o A whole Galaxy seems like overkill but a Khan and a Khesik was not enough
After the success of the first wave, i feel that dropping a Galaxy is not unreasonable, at the time (and beyond) the Ghost Bear had the largest Touman of any of the other clans. and some elite galaxies right next door. If anything send the Maulers from Beta as they are the best Beta has to offer, and staunch crusaders that probably fully support ilKhan Osis.
• Finally if you were the Khan who saved the Jags what would you want? I would ask for:
Friendship...and planets...good ones
Honestly the fact that Khan Ward was against supporting the Jaguars is reason enough for me to be all in. the Wolf clan is always up to some sneaky un-Clanlike scheming.
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The Bears would never intervene. First of all, intervening in things isn't really in their nature to begin with, and second of all, the Bears dislike the Jaguars and Nova Cats in particular and wouldn't have much interest in helping them especially.
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The Bears would never intervene. First of all, intervening in things isn't really in their nature to begin with, and second of all, the Bears dislike the Jaguars and Nova Cats in particular and wouldn't have much interest in helping them especially.
This is what makes this discussion enjoyable every one disliked the jags but even at the end they had things of value if a smaller clan could have taken some and held it they would have been a much better position.
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Well sure, if a clan didn't act like a clan they could make some gains until they got called on their unclanlike behavior.
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The Bears would never intervene. First of all, intervening in things isn't really in their nature to begin with, and second of all, the Bears dislike the Jaguars and Nova Cats in particular and wouldn't have much interest in helping them especially.
Third, at the time, they were busy transferring most of their Clan to the Inner Sphere and trying to establish a permanent home for themselves in their OZ.
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This is what makes this discussion enjoyable every one disliked the jags but even at the end they had things of value if a smaller clan could have taken some and held it they would have been a much better position.
Several Clans did. AFTER the Jags were defeated.
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If the spirits were too assist against serpent what aerospace fighter assets could they have drawn on?
The blood guard Keshik their closest unit to huntress was all Mech. Their aero space forces were always kept separate so would they have had some on strana mechty to join in?
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Several Clans did. AFTER the Jags were defeated.
So if the jags had gotten help and survived how could they held off absorbition?
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They'd have needed to suddenly come up with something that gave them a quick boost to military strength, like the secret sibkos the Falcons suddenly had after the Refusal War. And like the Falcons and Wolves after the Refusal War, they'd have had to have quickly launched one or more attacks to demonstrate that they were still strong.
Of course, if they then failed in those attacks, then Alexandre Kerensky himself wouldn't have been able to save them.
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They'd have needed to suddenly come up with something that gave them a quick boost to military strength, like the secret sibkos the Falcons suddenly had after the Refusal War. And like the Falcons and Wolves after the Refusal War, they'd have had to have quickly launched one or more attacks to demonstrate that they were still strong.
Of course, if they then failed in those attacks, then Alexandre Kerensky himself wouldn't have been able to save them.
Right they would have had to ramp the harvest trials and do a contract bid with the horses or some such
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No, they'd have to do something far more extreme than that. They'd have to do something spectacular- beat invading Coventry or the Wolves' series of trials. Unlike the Wolves and Falcons, they have no friends at this point, everyone is just waiting to snap up their remains at the first sign of weakness. Like capturing and holding an important world from another Home Clan.
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If the Clan SDS system was turned back....almost certainly the Jags would have survived. They'd have ben able to pick off "Bulldog" while it was still incoming.
They'd be weakened, but they'd still have forces available on other Cluster worlds such as Tranquil.
How hard would the back up SDS have been to turn back on?
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IIRC, pretty damned hard. Task Force Serpent wanted to make sure that it stayed off.
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Right. When osis was jumped by the the nekami he was inspecting the backup SDS site right? Was the back up damaged but repairable? I remember that after osis was injured the nekami blew the site to heck but was it fixable before that?
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Define "fixable." No hard description of just how wrecked it was was ever given.
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Why don't you just start after Tukayyid and say that Osis didn't make it leaving Howell as the Khan who rebuilds the Jaguars from 3052 onward.
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Why don't you just start after Tukayyid and say that Osis didn't make it leaving Howell as the Khan who rebuilds the Jaguars from 3052 onward.
I think the Howell led jags would have looked a lot like vlads wolves but the culture change would be harder
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I think that after Howell killed the first few idiots, the rest would fall in line fairly easily. Especially if the Clan's strength was obviously increasing.
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Why don't you just start after Tukayyid and say that Osis didn't make it leaving Howell as the Khan who rebuilds the Jaguars from 3052 onward.
Would have been more interesting if Brandan Howell ended up the Khan. Got the impression he was more of thinker less of temper tantrum guy then Osis.
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I think the Howell led jags would have looked a lot like vlads wolves but the culture change would be harder
Doing a bunch of research on the Clans for my own projects the Jaguars (and this is my absorption) must have had a Crusader Harvest prior to the invasion (Operation Revival) like the Crusader Wolves did after the Refusal War. There are a lot of bloodnames from other Clans appearing in the Smoke Jaguar touman at this time which indicate this and lets face it they are one of the leading Crusaders at this time. Still in superb position to say hey were an Invader and your Clan is not so come join us they can rebuild in this fashion.
It is essentially a blank canvas after Osis demise on Tukayyid and you can do whatever you like of course. Decide who your sakhan will be and your (Howell's) rebuilding vision for the Clan then see how events effect this all.
How is this for a concept alternate: Vlad of the Smoke Jaguars
Brandon Howell, the new Khan of the Smoke Jaguars, embarks on a course to rebuild his Clan by taking what he needs from others. After all it is what the Jaguars do and Howell himself comes from a Snow Raven bloodline. The Crusader Wolves beset with the rise of an ancient Warden and freeborn Spheroid Mechwarrior have been left without leadership in the wake of Conal Ward's disgrace which presents Howell with an opportunity. Trialing for talented individuals nets him several notables including Vlad whose passion for the Crusader cause can not be understated. Together they embark on a Crusade to end all Crusades!
Remember Vlad still has to earn his bloodname and has some room to grow as a character till 3057 but this event would certain alter your universe and may well rebuild the Clan. ;)
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I apologize for the thread-jack, but I am looking for information on Smoke Jaguars mech weight distribution in their forces for a project I am working on in MekHQ. I did not want to waste a new thread for this single question. I have most books so a point in the right direction should be all I need. Actually this information for other Clans would be helpful for possible future projects too.
I am working on recreating the game Mechwarrior 3 and the novel Trial Under Fire in MekHQ. Yeah I know the thread is Save the Jags, and I am a freebirth spheroid taking part in their destruction. >:D
In reading the novel and reviewing the game it came to my attention that the mech and vehicle variety seem a bit off. While the novel is technically canon I could not get over the concentration of a few IS Omnis or IS upgraded Wolf Dragoon designs. Out of 22 Assault Mechs 9 are Annihilator 2As, with 2 missions having 3 each. What I am looking to do is give my campaign a more natural feel with more variety in the Draconis Combine salvaged mechs, add in some IIC and other Second Line mechs/vehicles, and give the Front Line mechs a more Jaguar feel. I am using MegaMek's custom RATs so I should be good there.
This is what I am currently working with for weight distribution based on the game.
23 light mechs
25 medium mechs
59 heavy mechs
22 assault mechs
9 partial to full Elemental points
47 light vehicles (mix of wheeled APCs, Harassers, Strikers, and 15 Donar VTOL)
19 Bulldog tanks
About a Galaxy worth of forces left to the Wolves for salvage from a lance of spheroid warriors. xp
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I think that after Howell killed the first few idiots, the rest would fall in line fairly easily. Especially if the Clan's strength was obviously increasing.
That is how they did things!
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A recently stumbled upon a sarna entry on the jaquers swords. Which was a cover ops unit of the jags ( how that worked i don’t know!) can any one provide info on unit composition and fate?
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There is only that small sentence in the Jihad Sourcebook. I don't think you will find more.
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There is only that small sentence in the Jihad Sourcebook. I don't think you will find more.
Hmmm what do we think they would have been equipped with
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Per Sarna from ISP2
ilKhan Lincoln Osis struck the Cluster from the official roster after which it acted in a clandestine special operations role. Osis' believed the Clans were being infiltrated by an unknown power or force. They were tasked with investigating Clan Cloud Cobra and their allies, especially in the Tanis system. Despite its secret nature at least one officer believed that it's mission was compromised from the start. [1]
Nothing specific other than it was cluster strength.
Probably all the normal stuff for a Cluster along with some extra vehicles for moving around outside of mechs.
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I am the only one that wondered about that passage? We know that the Jaguars were warriors, not politicians, tacticians or spies. A unit like this do not match with the Jaguars - especially an Osis. As this is also the only reference i do not take this for any guideline in my campaigns.
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I am the only one that wondered about that passage? We know that the Jaguars were warriors, not politicians, tacticians or spies. A unit like this do not match with the Jaguars - especially an Osis. As this is also the only reference i do not take this for any guideline in my campaigns.
Right!? The jags have always been presented as ultra conservative in everything so this really goes against all that have on them esp from the osis bloodhoyse. Now Brandon Howell who was noted as being much more tricksy would make more sense as being behind this
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Re: their mission that was a reference to the society? Was the cluster captured on huntress?
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Did osis share with grand council that the exodus road had been compromised by a jag? I would think that tidbit would have spurred the other clans to absorb them and then smash serpent with all haste....
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Did osis share with grand council that the exodus road had been compromised by a jag? I would think that tidbit would have spurred the other clans to absorb them and then smash serpent with all haste....
As Trent was thought dead, no he didn't.
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Did Osis even know that the Exodus Road had been compromised?
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Not til Task Force Serpent showed up on his doorstep demanding candy.
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That's what I thought.
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That's what I thought.
Ah yes. Awkward!
Re: the jag OZ relief fleet led by the Korat which was a liberator class. Did they need to challenge the serpent fleet? Could they have used a pirate point to deliver their troops and stayed on a hit and run strategy?
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What exactly did the Serpent fleet even do after arriving in the system? Seemed like the novels completely forgot about their existence once they had mechs on Huntress.
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Not til Task Force Serpent showed up on his doorstep demanding candy.
He should have given out full sized candy bars instead of raisins.
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What exactly did the Serpent fleet even do after arriving in the system? Seemed like the novels completely forgot about their existence once they had mechs on Huntress.
I believe they provided sensor info and some coms help. They did some “ light” orbital bombardment early on.
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It seemed like they'd all disappeared by the time the remnants of the Jaguar forces from the Inner Sphere arrived.
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It seemed like they'd all disappeared by the time the remnants of the Jaguar forces from the Inner Sphere arrived.
They fought again against that force and were pretty busted up after wards... they hung back after that. Which reminds me what is the range of a clan SDS system? If the clans had been able to turn it back on how much time would the IS Fleet have needed to get way?
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My understanding was that the Serpent forces smashed the hell out of the SDS controls. The Jaguars weren't going to be able to repair them at all, they would have had to build new ones.
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Didn't serpent lose a Warship to naval forces and have others damaged then Osis arrived and did more damage then the IS Jags arrived IIRC only Invisible Truth was in fighting condition when the Bulldog units arrived why Serpent didn't have another big Warship is beyond me
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Didn't serpent lose a Warship to naval forces and have others damaged then Osis arrived and did more damage then the IS Jags arrived IIRC only Invisible Truth was in fighting condition when the Bulldog units arrived why Serpent didn't have another big Warship is beyond me
Because they didn't have that many "Big" warships to go around.
The FC wasn't cranking out Avalons or Mjoilnir's yet & by 3059 only had a few Foxes completed.
The DC Contributed one of their Cruisers/Frigates IIRC.
CS Had a grand total of something like 6 Cruisers in their 30ish warship fleet & nothing larger.
And much of everyone's fleet was designated to be with Bulldog where they knew they would be facing Jag Warships around many of the Invasion worlds.
Just look at Luzerne for example, 1 CS Cruiser v/s a Jag Frigate & Destroyer, and we know how well that turned out.
The Jag's had a Texas in the OZ somewhere, can you imagine having to face that thing with an IS 3060 fleet?!?
The IS needed everything in they had in the OZ but still gave Serpent their single best Naval Commander with their largest Warship.
As for Damage, they took a little on the invasion IIRC but when the Jags showed up they took more.
In the end they were the survivors but at that point had several damaged & at least 1 destroyed WS.
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After the fight against let’s look liberator and her escorts did the serpent fleet try to oppose the ilkhan and his reinforcements from landing ?
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There was a naval battle between the inbound forces returning from the SJOZ and the Serpent WarShips. The IS ships had a decided disadvantage of having already fought two separate naval actions by this point in time, and being somewhat worse for wear as a result.
The Streaking Mist made a quick insertion to drop off the ilKhan and what he brought with him before jumping out again via LF battery. Which is unfortunate, as a Black Lion likely could have destroyed or driven off what remained of the Serpent escorts. Hindsight...
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There was a naval battle between the inbound forces returning from the SJOZ and the Serpent WarShips. The IS ships had a decided disadvantage of having already fought two separate naval actions by this point in time, and being somewhat worse for wear as a result.
The Streaking Mist made a quick insertion to drop off the ilKhan and what he brought with him before jumping out again via LF battery. Which is unfortunate, as a Black Lion likely could have destroyed or driven off what remained of the Serpent escorts. Hindsight...
Right!? By the way please remind me how much aerospace forces the black lions could carry? Were they deployed along with the Keshiks and adhoc forced osis brought?
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A clan version Black Lion can carry 20 ASF. But we have no source whether all stars were on board or in what condition the ship and crew was at that time.
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An interesting alternative scenario would have been if Osis might have been declared unit to be ilKhan, an Absorption Trial being declared and then another Clan trying to win the Jaguar possessions and has to fight the Spheroids for these.
It did disturb me that the Clans so simply accepted an illegal Trial of Annihilation and had the Spheroids get such much precious spoils of war.
Can you parse the absorption? Could you only trial for the homework assets and not the OZ? Well I guess that would be a trial of possession right?
I believe as others have stated to pull off a full on legal absorption of the jags would be legally hard to do right?
If a clan of limited means declared a trial of possession for jag huntress assets would that have been easier to pass without interference?
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Remember that "legal" to the Clans basically means you can fight hard enough to defend your claim.
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Remember that "legal" to the Clans basically means you can fight hard enough to defend your claim.
Right.
And I do want to make this as legal as possible. The spirits run in against the burrocks not only was a baltant no no which cost them massive troop and material losses they could not afford but also made them powerful enemies.
Also keep in mind it was the spirit lore master bayle Campbell who swayed the khans to jump in.
What I would suggest is a Twisting of the spirits original MO when they would regularly announce d the other clans. Instead they could state that they will step toward to purge the invaders that the jags let in but leave what happens next vague.
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Can you parse the absorption? Could you only trial for the homework assets and not the OZ? Well I guess that would be a trial of possession right?
Yes.
I believe as others have stated to pull off a full on legal absorption of the jags would be legally hard to do right?
While they were fighting those treacherous Spheroids, yes. The Grand Council would never have approved. After all you already had two combatants engaged in combat and a third party would have been considered an interloper. Not to mention there were some who would prevent any third party from trying to save the Jags with force if necessary (ex.: Vlad stopping the Sharks from aiding the Jaguars).
If a clan of limited means declared a trial of possession for jag huntress assets would that have been easier to pass without interference?
During the fighting between the Jaguars and the IS forces, as stated above, it would have been considered a dezgra act and hence the GC would not have approved. After the destruction of the Jaguars (and the Great Refusal), it became a free-for-all with several clans sending forces to seize technology, surviving manufacturing facilities, etc. The Blood Spirits would simply have been one more clan added to the mix of Clans fighting over the remains of what was once Clan Smoke Jaguar.
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If this has been covered elsewhere kindly point me to the info but could any tell me what forces did the jags have protecting their homeworld assets?
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If this has been covered elsewhere kindly point me to the info but could any tell me what forces did the jags have protecting their homeworld assets?
The Iron Guard and Watchmen Galaxies were stationed on Huntress. According to Sarna at least, the other ten Galaxies mentioned in sourcebooks were stationed in the Inner Sphere OZ.
Obviously the Jags couldn't have risked leaving no visible garrisons to protect their enclaves on at least seven other worlds (Londerholm, Kirin, Tranquil, Atreus, Eden, Homer and Vinton). But IIRC Osis was trying to pull off the same trick as the Ice Hellions a decade later - bluff the other Clans into thinking the Homeworld turf is better protected than it really is while throwing everything bar solahma at the Inner Sphere.
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And remember that most of those Galaxies were severely under-strength due to Osis having poached from them to build Tau Galaxy.
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Obviously the Jags couldn't have risked leaving no visible garrisons to protect their enclaves on at least seven other worlds (Londerholm, Kirin, Tranquil, Atreus, Eden, Homer and Vinton). But IIRC Osis was trying to pull off the same trick as the Ice Hellions a decade later - bluff the other Clans into thinking the Homeworld turf is better protected than it really is while throwing everything bar solahma at the Inner Sphere.
The Wolves did the same thing before the Refusal War as well leaving no known front or second line commands to defend their homeworld holdings. This doesn't preclude the presence of third line (militia) forces like solahma, sibkos, and watch units which offer little glory to any would be opponent. Plus these units would likely be unbound by zellbrigen and near suicidal in their efforts to repel attackers. If any 'attack' on these worlds and inferior units proved unsuccessful in the least the consequences would be severe. Other Clans would probably seek out said loser as easy targets themselves.
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And the Falcons did the same thing on Coventry. And somehow still had planets to return to after being there almost a year.
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Did the jags have a strong 2nd line and solahma bench? I know some clans like sharks and cobras had systems in place to quickly replace lost warriors but I assume the jags had nothing like that?
No freeborns either right?
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Did the jags have a strong 2nd line and solahma bench? I know some clans like sharks and cobras had systems in place to quickly replace lost warriors but I assume the jags had nothing like that?
The Jags were never that forward thinking. Seemed to have a very weak second line force.
No freeborns either right?
Correct. The Jags were one of a handful of Clans to shun freeborn entirely.
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If this has been covered elsewhere kindly point me to the info but could any tell me what forces did the jags have protecting their homeworld assets?
This is somewhat of an interesting question. In the novels covering the fall of Huntress, there is a mention that Osis had scraped up everything available to the Jaguars into an ad hoc unit called the "Jaguar's Heart." Years later, 3058U has several mentions of the other Clans picking up quality Smoke Jaguar salvage from other Homeworlds locations, implying there were in fact still other units that didn't go to Huntress. I don't think anyone short of the writers could say with any accuracy how much strength this would have amounted to.
As for the robustness of the Jaguar Touman, it seems to have been substantial, at least initially. Luthien took a heavy toll on the Clan forces that participated, widely believed to have been Smoke Jaguar Alpha, Beta, and Delta Galaxies, and just a few months later two of those Galaxies were considered combat capable to drop on Tukayyid. After Tukayyid, where Beta Galaxy took heavy losses and Alpha mauled, there appears to have been some rapid rebuilding to get Beta back up. For Alpha, the mighty, mighty Jaguar Grenadiers evidently survived in some capacity according to ER3052, and both the 4th and 7th Dragoons who had been part of Alpha were transferred to a seemingly new Galaxy, Epsilon, for the remainder of their existence. It is well noted that the Jaguars from this point had great difficulty rebuilding their forces, with the exact writing being something like "rebuilding one cluster just to see another mauled in a raid." The usage of Inner Sphere equipment is also well known. The concentration of resources to rebuild both Alpha Galaxy at the same time as Tau Galaxy was said to be a massive undertaking by this point in time, making Tau's rapid loss all the more devastating.
As half the leadership of the Crusader cause and one of the power players in the Homeworlds prior to REVIVAL, the Jaguars appeared to have the same reserves as the other Clans would show, however they went through their reserves far quicker thanks to the twin debacles of Luthien and Tukayyid, and never recovered before the Inner Sphere came looking for their due.
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Just for the record I always loved the idea of the jag heart unit! For those who don’t know they were warriors on the cusp of being solahma but were in training or testing roles who got the chance at one glorious battle again.
Probably also worth noting they got the grunt work while the keshiks got to charge in glorious and shiny...
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It was also stated that the Jaguars had neglected to build their industrial capacity compared to other Clans, so they simply couldn't produce replacement equipment fast enough.
And, of course, not allowing freeborn warriors combined with lower than usual respect for veteran warriors post Tukayyid meant that they also had fewer warriors available.
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So for a variety of reasons the jags painted themselves into a corner and with no allies when osis demanded aid rather than asking the other clans happily let them die. However I did not know about Ian hawkers sad fan boy obsession with the jags or the humiliation he endured from the jag khans.
It would have been cruel irony for the jags to be saved and then kept in debt to the sharks. While the jags oz was gone they still had plenty of under utilized enclaves in the home worlds and valuable heritages and unit designs to barter away...
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If osis wanted to cut a secret deal with the spirits how could he have contacted their leadership?
As ilkhan would he have the 3060 equivalent of a red phone to Moscow for all clans?
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If osis wanted to cut a secret deal with the spirits how could he have contacted their leadership?
As ilkhan would he have the 3060 equivalent of a red phone to Moscow for all clans?
Unless there's a canon reference to it somewhere, your guess about a 'red phone' is as good as anybody's. You could argue 'for' based on it making sense for the supreme warlord to be able to contact any of his deputies in private; you could argue 'against' based on Clan honor, the memory of Tobias Khatib and his dodgy dealings as ilKhan, Osis himself being too honor-bound to utilise such secret methods... for gameplay purposes pick whichever answer suits what you're running and got with it.
It would have been cruel irony for the jags to be saved and then kept in debt to the sharks. While the jags oz was gone they still had plenty of under utilized enclaves in the home worlds and valuable heritages and unit designs to barter away...
Ha ha, that would have been amusing to see - the Jags in thrall to the Clan that's closest to being their antithesis ;D
As an aside, has anybody written any alt-histories where the Jags do survive?
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If osis wanted to cut a secret deal with the spirits how could he have contacted their leadership?
As ilkhan would he have the 3060 equivalent of a red phone to Moscow for all clans?
Every clan world likely had an HPG on it.
Clan WS also all had HPG on them.
Finally the Spirits still maintained their traditional enclave on Strana Mechty.
Plenty of ways to contact them if you had the urge to.
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Yes, but would they?
Most likely no, why give up the prestige?
TT
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Besides huntress what was another big manufacturing world for the jags? Instead of attempting to hold all their homeworld territory could the jags have cut their loses and ceded the enclave or traded output so that garrison could have been freed up to defend huntress?
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Besides huntress what was another big manufacturing world for the jags? Instead of attempting to hold all their homeworld territory could the jags have cut their loses and ceded the enclave or traded output so that garrison could have been freed up to defend huntress?
That is essentially the plot of "Trial Under Fire". Set on Tranquil, Galaxy Commander Corbett attempts to stave off the destruction of the Jaguars. Didn't work.
Even then, had the forces on Huntress abandoned the planet, Tranquil had only modest manufacturing capabilities. The Jaguars had put all their eggs in one basket on Huntress. Their modus operandi was to take what they needed, not build it.
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That is essentially the plot of "Trial Under Fire". Set on Tranquil, Galaxy Commander Corbett attempts to stave off the destruction of the Jaguars. Didn't work.
Even then, had the forces on Huntress abandoned the planet, Tranquil had only modest manufacturing capabilities. The Jaguars had put all their eggs in one basket on Huntress. Their modus operandi was to take what they needed, not build it.
Thanks Jaim that makes sense and Corbett refused the recall order why?
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Thanks Jaim that makes sense and Corbett refused the recall order why?
I don't recall any specific reason given, but Osis looked weak, and the Jaguars followed strength, soooo.... he sensed an opportunity.
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The Wolves did the same thing before the Refusal War as well leaving no known front or second line commands to defend their homeworld holdings. This doesn't preclude the presence of third line (militia) forces like solahma, sibkos, and watch units which offer little glory to any would be opponent. Plus these units would likely be unbound by zellbrigen and near suicidal in their efforts to repel attackers. If any 'attack' on these worlds and inferior units proved unsuccessful in the least the consequences would be severe. Other Clans would probably seek out said loser as easy targets themselves.
Not quite . . . the Refusal War had three (or parts, Gamma & Delta were not complete IIRC) frontline galaxies involved, a single secondline galaxy (Tau), and maybe a garrison galaxy in the fighting. One Homeworlds garrison galaxy (Omega) was in transit from the Homeworlds per Ulric's secret orders which leaves 3 known frontline clusters, and at least 15-21 secondline/garrison clusters in the OZ. Probably another frontline galaxy in the Homeworlds (Wolves seemed to just have 3 clusters in frontline galaxies) or a quality secondline galaxy and a garrison galaxy if another besides Omega was assigned.
IMO the wording on Huntress being the home of the two Homeworlds garrison galaxies is a bit vague . . . since it does not mean each galaxy did not have a cluster or some trinaries detached to be the garrison at various holdings. Now those two garrison galaxies were in such bad shape for material they were using IS salvage/cast offs to get the clusters up to real strength rather than being rosters w/o equipment. And that was on Huntress, the capital and most important Jaguar world in Clan space. Which means some of those other garrison outposts could have a trinary or two assigned but in reality only have a star or two of mechs- which can be covered up with the Clan bidding system until someone wants to exploit it.
One other thing to think of, the Xerxes fluff mentions the factory for the ASF on Kirin and how the Horses 'secured' it when the Jaguars fell. So, did they move in or have a token battle against what remained of the garrison? IMO it leads to the idea Osis gathered up whatever equipment he could and the warriors to man it. Wasn't Hawker also bringing top Shark gear besides formed units to Osis support?
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IMO it leads to the idea Osis gathered up whatever equipment he could and the warriors to man it.
That was pretty obvious with his statement to Victor Steiner-Davion during the Grand Refusal that the trinary he had opposing Victor's forces were the last remaining Smoke Jaguar warriors.
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Maybe my intent was not clear . . . my supposition was that what Osis used was all the warriors he had equipment (of any sort) to outfit- or that answered his call that he could equip. Corbett's efforts on Tranquil may have been the last official Jaguars, what I can find say they are but gives no dates and I do not have material with me. Since 2nd SL forces left Tranquil while there was still organized Jaguar forces I would expect they ended up absorbed into the Crusader Wolves when they completed their control of the planet. Such a defeat/absorption of the last remaining organized/recognized Jaguar forces might be where the Crusader Wolves ended up gaining some control of Jaguar genetics which was something interestingly enough not addressed in the Bloodhouse reorganization post-Reavings for the IS Clans.
The final Jaguars of course ended up as bandits, being the Dark Jaguar (Rosseau Howell) who used the Streaking Mist as a flagship until his forces met their end in the Reavings.
To the OP, not sure if you know but the Steel Wolves as of 3132 have a warrior who's gene-mother is of Jaguar bloodname. She is a bit upset since it will be extremely difficult to win a bloodname (http://cf.sarna.net/docs/mwda_dossiers/death_from_above_30.pdf (http://cf.sarna.net/docs/mwda_dossiers/death_from_above_30.pdf)). . . which means that when Katya took Delta to join Stone they had some sort of copy of the Crusader Wolves' gene banks that included their acquired Jaguar bloodnames.
It also says most have been invalidated . . . no idea what that means since I do not think that description has been used before, but makes me think of the Mongoose & Widowmaker precedent in that most bloodhouses lay unused (what happened to their chapels on Strana Mechty before the Reavings?) but some are still functional among the Cobras and Wolves respectively. The largest collection of ex-Jaguar warriors living the Clan culture would be with the Warden Wolves who per TPTB could be using them in their breeding programs & continue the Blood Houses . . . or it could be that the exclusive Jaguar names are those invalidated and only the shared names are still functional since those Bloodnamed were in other Clans.
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It was also stated that the Jaguars had neglected to build their industrial capacity compared to other Clans, so they simply couldn't produce replacement equipment fast enough.
And, of course, not allowing freeborn warriors combined with lower than usual respect for veteran warriors post Tukayyid meant that they also had fewer warriors available.
This also made me think of another gaming scenario. Where did/do the clans store their ammo and spare parts on their homeworlds? Is that something they do or is immediately shipped out to the various units?
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Depends on the Clan. The Wolves, Bears, and Shark-Foxes have always been described as having extremely good logistical capabilities (though the Bears did apparently screw up in the first stages of the Invasion of the Inner Sphere) while other Clans have neglected that aspect of military readiness.
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You can only store when you have a surplus of something. As far as i see the clan culture isn't made for surplus.
There are few clans that understand the needs of sufficient supplies - and know what is sufficient for what enemy.
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The Jags were busy shipping every military item they could make (few) or steal (more) to the Inner Sphere, which is why they defended with Inner Sphere cast-offs. So I do not think the Jags would have any great source of supply cached on Huntress or other worlds. When word of Bulldog got back to the Homeworlds? I imagine they would have scrambled to send even more towards the fight.
I think a better question might be what sort of stores did the Star League capture intact or on DS in the OZ? The remnants of the OZ forces probably met supply convoys headed for the OZ as they retreated, which means Mehta's forces that made it back to Huntress (and Corbins to Tranquil) were probably in decent shape for what they had escaped with.
Since Tukayyid the Falcons had started turning their most forward OZ worlds into supply dumps to prepare themselves for when the invasion would re-start- either with repudiation when Ulric was ousted or just the time ran out. Worlds with supply caches or were able to directly support the Falcon's looming offensive became first wave targets in the Refusal War. In fact, Natasha opened the doors to the armory and let the citizens of that world arm themselves to fend off the Falcons. We do not hear much about it (in fact I think it just gets dropped) but it was a way to deny the world completely to the Falcons even after the Wolf forces had moved on as well as costing the Falcons time & hoarded supplies to re-conquer . . . and if they had not moved quickly enough to retake the world, the Vipers could have gained another OZ world towards Terra.
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That is essentially the plot of "Trial Under Fire". Set on Tranquil, Galaxy Commander Corbett attempts to stave off the destruction of the Jaguars. Didn't work.
Even then, had the forces on Huntress abandoned the planet, Tranquil had only modest manufacturing capabilities. The Jaguars had put all their eggs in one basket on Huntress. Their modus operandi was to take what they needed, not build it.
Could anyone fill me in a bit more on how the jags actually did their “ we do not sow “ economy?
Were they always on the hunt for easy pickings for food stuffs and manufactured goods?
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Think of it sort of like the tech support ratings in the Merc books . . . 'Clan can meet XX% of logistical needs for ground forces, can build/repair DS, build/repair JS, but cannot build or perform long term maintenance on warships out of their own resources.' Or other descriptions like 'can barely meet regular maintenance needs- unable to devote the resources to rebuild badly damaged or salvaged chassis.'
For the Jags it would be . . .
Can build corvettes, JS, & DS
Can build ground forces to meet 50-70% of sustainment needs (two galaxies on Huntress struggling to field any Clan mechs)
Can graduate enough trueborns for high operational tempo
Does not have freeborn sibkos
I mean, honestly what is the list of what they stole?
They took the rights to the Dire Wolf design
Arctic Cheetah factory
good odds the Turk ASF was taken from its makers
What is the origin of the Liberator they had?
Look at the number of designs they share with other Clans like the Grendel
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There was a naval battle between the inbound forces returning from the SJOZ and the Serpent WarShips. The IS ships had a decided disadvantage of having already fought two separate naval actions by this point in time, and being somewhat worse for wear as a result.
The Streaking Mist made a quick insertion to drop off the ilKhan and what he brought with him before jumping out again via LF battery. Which is unfortunate, as a Black Lion likely could have destroyed or driven off what remained of the Serpent escorts. Hindsight...
After re reading the fall of huntress novels again, at one point osis considers but then quickly rejects the idea to use the streaking mist to preform orbital strikes on serpent. A few questions on that:
1) as ilkhan and senior jag khan could he authorize this by himself?
2) wouldn’t any loss of face in doing this been over riding by getting the win against serpent?
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#1- yes, lowest rank I think we have seen call for warship fire support would be Galaxy Commander- was it a GalCom or a Star Colonel for Turtle Bay?
#2- Problem is with HOW he beats them. Say he staves off the Star League by burning them with orbital fire. The Jags will still have small detachments and stragglers to clean up unless the planet is Gibson'd. Then its how it appears to the other Clans- 'you had to resort to warships to win?' All that would have happened is the feeding frenzy on Jaguar assets would have been fought against whatever scraps the Jags had left rather than the Star League- and the process would have likely been sped up. So the Grand Council would have formally moved for a Trial of Absorption or, and more likely, some Khans would have blocked it so they could snap up the nearest Jag bites.
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#1- yes, lowest rank I think we have seen call for warship fire support would be Galaxy Commander- was it a GalCom or a Star Colonel for Turtle Bay?
#2- Problem is with HOW he beats them. Say he staves off the Star League by burning them with orbital fire. The Jags will still have small detachments and stragglers to clean up unless the planet is Gibson'd. Then its how it appears to the other Clans- 'you had to resort to warships to win?' All that would have happened is the feeding frenzy on Jaguar assets would have been fought against whatever scraps the Jags had left rather than the Star League- and the process would have likely been sped up. So the Grand Council would have formally moved for a Trial of Absorption or, and more likely, some Khans would have blocked it so they could snap up the nearest Jag bites.
Could you expand on your idea re: other khans would have blocked the absorption? Who do you think would and why?
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Pretty much every Khan who thought they could have gotten a piece of the Jaguar pie would have been trying to block absorption by a single Clan.
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For examples, look at what happened with the abjured Nova Cats.
They were outcast and a date set to when they were to have left Clan space while returning all the Nova Cat assets to the Clans as a whole. After that point, any Cats found could be killed out of hand. But numerous Clans, or at least the lower level political powers (Galaxy Commanders and some Star Colonels) initiated seizures of Cat assets and territories many without declaring Trials and treating them as dezgra. Once a few commanders jumped the gun for the benefit of their Clan (and political future) other Clans followed out of pragmatism- get that Nova Cat Omni line for my Clan before those stravag Diamond Sharks!
So, after one feeding frenzy would it really be a stretch for the Khans to weight strengthening their Clan a little bit vs declaring a Trial of Absorption and trying to be the one Clan among 14 to get all the assets? Especially when you consider that only a year or two before Taney was talking about kicking a Invader from their corridor.
Can you imagine the chaos as the Homies trial each other for the Jaguar's right for some world in the OZ? Everyone but the Crusader Wolves, Falcons, Bears, and Sharks fighting for the right to try to retake a former Jaguar world from the OZ. Well, maybe the Spirits would not since they would be licking their wounds.
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on the topic of freeborns warriors of CSJ, they did have 1 cluster of freeborns, Luthien (scenario pack) Book. 22nd SJ Freebirth Cluster, PG pg: 27, 56-57. said Cluster suffered severe losses and surrendered.
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I have been thinking about throwing kindraa mick kreese at task force serpent to “ save “ the jags my question is would the mandrill khans be obligated to tell the other kindraa about the assault on huntress and their decision to not interfere?
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Each Kindraa goes their own way afaik, so only way the Khans would know was if one was a Mick-Kreese or part of another Kindraa which found out. Such things have come back to bite the Mandrills in the arse, such as when one Kindraa pissed off the Coyotes and Horses enough for them to wage a campaign to wipe them out.
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Each Kindraa goes their own way afaik, so only way the Khans would know was if one was a Mick-Kreese or part of another Kindraa which found out. Such things have come back to bite the Mandrills in the arse, such as when one Kindraa pissed off the Coyotes and Horses enough for them to wage a campaign to wipe them out.
Exactly. Way back when I first picked up FM crusader clans I dismissed the mandrills but they lend themselves to some interesting ideas!
I am toying with a story where kindraa mick kreese and the spirits blood guard jump into the huntress battle. Mick kreese with its naval and boarding expertise would lead the warship battle and provide air support ( if successful) for the ground campaign which the spirits would lead.
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Exactly. Way back when I first picked up FM crusader clans I dismissed the mandrills but they lend themselves to some interesting ideas!
They put the "fun" in "dysfunctional"?
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Exactly. Way back when I first picked up FM crusader clans I dismissed the mandrills but they lend themselves to some interesting ideas!
I am toying with a story where kindraa mick kreese and the spirits blood guard jump into the huntress battle. Mick kreese with its naval and boarding expertise would lead the warship battle and provide air support ( if successful) for the ground campaign which the spirits would lead.
What other Clans would you involve? Who would be defending? Surely not while tje Jags were alive.
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He has been championing the idea of someone among the other Clans coming to the Jags rescue against Serpent.
I am not sure that would work out, by the vote you can see how loved the Jaguars are . . . not sure ANY Clan could get that type of support.
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I'm definitely not sure of the Mandrills doing that. They are one of the Clans that are sticklers about non-interference in the internal affairs of other Clans. They only helped out the Blood Spirits because they believed that the weaker Clans should help each other. And the was mostly Kindraa Smythe-Jewel, and look what that got them...
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I'm definitely not sure of the Mandrills doing that. They are one of the Clans that are sticklers about non-interference in the internal affairs of other Clans. They only helped out the Blood Spirits because they believed that the weaker Clans should help each other. And the was mostly Kindraa Smythe-Jewel, and look what that got them...
See that’s what I thought as well back in the day but kindraa mick kreese and the spirits became very close and did a number of joint operations together.
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See that’s what I thought as well back in the day but kindraa mick kreese and the spirits became very close and did a number of joint operations together.
That's true as well. And I honestly don't see any other Clans that would lift a finger for the "in this solemn matter let no one interfere" Jags. And as much as some people seem to think that the Clans in general agree with the Jaguars about how they dealt with the Londerholm Revolt, they didn't. Many disgreeable things from the Jaguars' history add up to a general distaste for their brutality, including Londerholm, or the use of orbital bombardment during the Mongoose Absorption, or even the rumours of rape and other brutalities in Operation Klondike. It has all added up to how the Jags were left alone to their fate in canon.
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That's true as well. And I honestly don't see any other Clans that would lift a finger for the "in this solemn matter let no one interfere" Jags. And as much as some people seem to think that the Clans in general agree with the Jaguars about how they dealt with the Londerholm Revolt, they didn't. Many disgreeable things from the Jaguars' history add up to a general distaste for their brutality, including Londerholm, or the use of orbital bombardment during the Mongoose Absorption, or even the rumours of rape and other brutalities in Operation Klondike. It has all added up to how the Jags were left alone to their fate in canon.
As they should have been! I really regret not putting quotes around save in my thread title. The jags were awful and the mandrills had long feuded with them what I am suggesting is that kindraa mick kreese jump in with their Lola iii and Potemkin to haul out any usable hulls after the naval battles, beat up serpent for cool points , and haul away dropships full of salvage
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Ask the Spirits if being the third wheel in a conflict gets you cool points. They just look like Dark Caste at that point.
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As has been posted in this thread earlier osis really painted himself into a corner by demanding help in a public way.
A more reasonable ask may have been to a seek naval and aero support from a strong air power. Said clan could have then demanded all hulls and or a hefty price in tech ( protons) or future breeding rights.
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I think it's been pointed out elsewhere and by smarter posters than me that the Spirits are chalcas surats who lived too long among the Clans of Kerensky.
At this point in their history it might be difficult to talk them into helping another Clan, given their spurned attitude. They feel betrayed by the other Clans, that's why they only have diplomatic relations with three Clans at the best of times.
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As has been posted in this thread earlier osis really painted himself into a corner by demanding help in a public way.
CSJ painted themselves into a corner by their behavior in the Inner Sphere. No other Clan marked itself for such destruction as CSJ had, with their depredations and brutality. No other Clan had proven itself as inept at strategic warfare, time and again, even with victory in sight, holding all the cards, their arrogance denied them victory. What Clan would even consider themselves as allies? CSJ made few friends among the Clans and when they were the most powerful Clan, abused their own civilians at a time when no other Clan would dare stop them. The memories of their bullying would probably never be forgotten.
The Clans are not unified. Their culture has them in constant competition, in constant antagonism. Only are there rare moments of cooperation, and their appearance of a united invasion of the IS was an illusion: They just happened to be heading in the same direction by coincidence.
During the invasion, when a Clan was struggling to advance, the other Clans would gloat, not offer assistance; It is not in their culture to cooperate. Kerensky's legacy was a bitter form of Darwinism that gave the Clans more reasons to kill each other than to preserve one another.
When Osis called for help, if I was a Clanner, I would be razzing him and CSJ without mercy. Osis, leader of the Fundamentalist Smoke Jaguars, the self-styled ultimate Clan warriors, just turned Clan protocols upside down and cried "Uncle!" in front of the people for whom he held contempt. When a Clan screwed up, the last people you asked for help would be the other Clans, because that was just a declaration of being unfit for existence. In that respect, Osis forgot Clan history.
As it was, standing by and watching CSJ being crushed by IS forced was very much a part of Kerensky's legacy: A weak Clan was a detriment to all of the others and a lesson for the future.
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The first alternate event in this line would occur in 3059 during the Burrock Absorption. I would have a created character (possibly older and more wise) from Clan Blood Spirit challenge Loremaster Bayle Campbell after hearing his counsel to ignore the will of the Grand Council and participate in the Burrock Absorption. After defeating him in combat this person would urge the Khans to abide by the Council's ruling but await the proper time to strike. Realizing this righteous task would take allies this new Loremaster would urge his Clan to end their isolation and approach a few respected Clans with offers of friendship. This would include Diamond Shark, Fire Mandrill, Snow Raven, and a few more like Ghost Bear or Steel Viper.
Now this changes things as the Burrock Absorption likely goes far smoother for the Star Adders with even stronger material gains. This could lend weight to the Blood Spirit efforts to accumulate allies among the Homeworld Clans attempting to balance out their power.
The Jaguars failure goes deeper than just their ejection from the InnerSphere. Operation Revival was their baby and it is blowing up in the Clans faces in 3060. The 'fear' caused by the discovery of the Clan Homeworlds was used by Leo Showers masterfully to get him elected ilKhan and start the invasion during which they faced several reversals (Wolcott, Luthien, Tukayyid) as well numerous questionable incidents (Edo, the escape of Hohiro and the bombardment of that planet).
ilKhan Osis was elected to restart the invasion and to that purpose he ordered an accounting of Clan strength (FM Crusader and Warden Clans). He failed notify anyone that the InnerSphere had launched a coordinated attack against his Occupation Zone and hid the disaster till he asked for help in the Grand Council (NEED THE DATE). Immediately after that meeting (I have to research the date) I would get the Blood Spirits rolling.
They don't like or need the Grand Council to authorize anything and most telling they hate the InnerSphere even more. News of the attack on Huntress would send them over the edge that these barbarians are in Kerensky's Homeworlds. Call them Trials of Possession for the purpose of ousting of any InnerSphere force from the Clan space. Now this puts the Spirits to war with the Jags (perhaps like the Burrocks fought the Adders during their Absorption) and the InnerSphere. A tall order yes but a winnable affair.
After which you show up at the Grand Council to justify your actions and cite the Refusal War as precedent with a reborn Jaguar Clan as your new ally.
I really like this idea. When I reread my FM Crusaders it has alot in there about how the Spirits Loremaster was THE reason for them to break Clan custom and attack during the Burrock Absorption and alos names several characters who wanted the Spirits to end their Isolation and partner with the Mandrills and the Ravens again. I will need to re read that to see who would be a good person to replace the cannon loremaster.
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I am about half way through trial by fire which tells the tale of Brendon Corbett a jag galaxy commander who did not obey ilkhan osis and instead tried to build up the jags on tranquil. However I can’t find any mention of what if any warships he may have had from the Oz?
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It's been a while since I read The Dragon Roars, but weren't all the Jag's warships accounted for?
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Well . . . Potemkin (Osis Pride) & Black Lion (Streaking Mist) were the two unaccounted for (btw, it was FMU that answered for the rest) . . . the Streaking Mist was one of the ships that Paul Moon took when he left Huntress after promising to return it to the system for the Jaguar if he caused the diversion. He used it to raid away from when he got it back (late 3060s to early 3070s) until 3079 when it was being repaired in the Ghent system and was jumped away. Wreckage was never found but supposedly there were sightings in Nouveaux Paris.
Osis Pride never went all the way back to the homeworlds, instead they raided through the periphery to survive (maybe MCG's Jag source?) and ended up meeting the last Hellions retreating from the JFOZ in their busted Potemkin. Negotiations had the two groups merge, Osis Pride became a Ice Hellion warship and was repaired, and I think the former Jags left . . . or maybe they joined the Hellions, I do not quite recall. Meanwhile the Hellions stripped Potemkin was tumbled into the sun (wasteful?). The ship was eventually broken up to help repair other surviving Scorpion ships in '77 after they bailed out of the Homeworlds.
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Well . . . Potemkin (Osis Pride) & Black Lion (Streaking Mist) were the two unaccounted for (btw, it was FMU that answered for the rest) . . . the Streaking Mist was one of the ships that Paul Moon took when he left Huntress after promising to return it to the system for the Jaguar if he caused the diversion. He used it to raid away from when he got it back (late 3060s to early 3070s) until 3079 when it was being repaired in the Ghent system and was jumped away. Wreckage was never found but supposedly there were sightings in Nouveaux Paris.
So it would have been possible that the osis pride could have been w Corbett’s forces?
Osis Pride never went all the way back to the homeworlds, instead they raided through the periphery to survive (maybe MCG's Jag source?) and ended up meeting the last Hellions retreating from the JFOZ in their busted Potemkin. Negotiations had the two groups merge, Osis Pride became a Ice Hellion warship and was repaired, and I think the former Jags left . . . or maybe they joined the Hellions, I do not quite recall. Meanwhile the Hellions stripped Potemkin was tumbled into the sun (wasteful?). The ship was eventually broken up to help repair other surviving Scorpion ships in '77 after they bailed out of the Homeworlds.
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No, Brandon Corbett went back to the Homeworlds- he just did not go to Huntress, instead setting up shop on Tranquil.
MechCommander Gold's Desperate Measures xpac had a Jag Star Colonel hitting some old SLDF depot world to search for scraps and the nuke vault. He was going to use Canned Sunshine to lighten up, like vapor levels of lighten, the 2nd Star League. He had a mixed cluster or two of forces on that planet.
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No, Brandon Corbett went back to the Homeworlds- he just did not go to Huntress, instead setting up shop on Tranquil.
MechCommander Gold's Desperate Measures xpac had a Jag Star Colonel hitting some old SLDF depot world to search for scraps and the nuke vault. He was going to use Canned Sunshine to lighten up, like vapor levels of lighten, the 2nd Star League. He had a mixed cluster or two of forces on that planet.
Whoa!
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So that is new to you?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/MechCommander_(Video_Game)#MechCommander:_Desperate_Measures_Expansion_Pack (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/MechCommander_(Video_Game)#MechCommander:_Desperate_Measures_Expansion_Pack)
Good old Star Colonel Marcus Kotare . . . I did not know this, but apparently he was a brief character in MW2: Mercs- which I never played. He had four named Star Captains you face in that campaign though only one was bloodnamed.
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That's new to me too. Cleanse the filthy surrat second Star League with nuclear fire!
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Well, he might have gotten chem/bio too.
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Now this would require some crystal ball work but why would another crusader not have worked to preserve the jags so the crusaders would have had an additional vote in the council?
The adders seemed to have done this with horses remnants when they created the stone lions
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The Adders created the Stone Lions because they didn't want to have another big voting block made up a bunch of outsiders, given all the trouble they'd just had with the Burrocks.
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Now this would require some crystal ball work but why would another crusader not have worked to preserve the jags so the crusaders would have had an additional vote in the council?
The adders seemed to have done this with horses remnants when they created the stone lions
Many Clans must have felt losing the Jags vote was an acceptable outcome. The Jags paid for being one of the most feared Clans.
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No, Brandon Corbett went back to the Homeworlds- he just did not go to Huntress, instead setting up shop on Tranquil.
MechCommander Gold's Desperate Measures xpac had a Jag Star Colonel hitting some old SLDF depot world to search for scraps and the nuke vault. He was going to use Canned Sunshine to lighten up, like vapor levels of lighten, the 2nd Star League. He had a mixed cluster or two of forces on that planet.
Even after reading the story about Corbett I am still confused. Was his plan to let huntress fall and if so how would that have flown the remaining jag bloodnamed?
Or was his plan to build up a strong force and then relief huntress and then ride that into the khanship?
With
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I got it as a very simple application of a military axiom- You do not reinforce failure.
The defense of Huntress failed.
The Inner Sphere had shown they had the power to stomp Jag forces on that world . . . but he seemed to hope they did not know where all the Jag worlds were located.
So after the IS strength departed, his Jaguar remains would need to stave off any of the Clans that came for a absorption, formal or informal.
Unlike Trent & Paul, he wanted to re-establish what had been lost/destroyed.
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I got it as a very simple application of a military axiom- You do not reinforce failure.
The defense of Huntress failed.
The Inner Sphere had shown they had the power to stomp Jag forces on that world . . . but he seemed to hope they did not know where all the Jag worlds were located.
So after the IS strength departed, his Jaguar remains would need to stave off any of the Clans that came for a absorption, formal or informal.
Unlike Trent & Paul, he wanted to re-establish what had been lost/destroyed.
Oh ok I think I got it. Tranquil was going to be the new homeworld and he was willing to abandon all other territory to consolidate there. However with no genetic repository how could he rebuild a warrior caste? Was there a backup on tranquil?
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Presumably he was to worried about surviving the immediate threat to really bother planning for a threat that was years in the future.
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And while the Jaguars had a repository on Huntress the 'master' copies of everything were on Strana Mechty, home of the Blood Chapels.
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I recall that he wanted to save what's left of his clan and insure himself a line or two in the Remembrance verse for saving it. That and a more prestigious linage bloodhouse named after him, if his was a minor one to start. Form a Minor to a Major one.
TT
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I recall that he wanted to save what's left of his clan and insure himself a line or two in the Remembrance verse for saving it. That and a more prestigious linage bloodhouse named after him, if his was a minor one to start. Form a Minor to a Major one.
TT
Wait what!? So did he purposely leave huntress to fall so he could make a bigger name for himself?
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To be fair, the writing was on the wall for Huntress before then anyway.
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Tiarret Neversson. Would have had like to have more information on what happened to her during the Jihad and after. Except for some hints in novels nothing.
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Wait what!? So did he purposely leave huntress to fall so he could make a bigger name for himself?
I wouldn't get too bent out of shape on the details. The story was based on Mechwarrior 3. Great game though.
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Tiarret Neversson. Would have had like to have more information on what happened to her during the Jihad and after. Except for some hints in novels nothing.
Precentor Rudolf Shakov got to climb onto that mountain every night . . .
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Did the IS forces immediately scuttle the defeated jag warships around huntress? I know several were recoverable so the IS destroyed then to prevent that. Would another clan be within clan law to trial for the salvage?
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Did the IS forces immediately scuttle the defeated jag warships around huntress? I know several were recoverable so the IS destroyed then to prevent that. Would another clan be within clan law to trial for the salvage?
Also what would have happened to the crews?
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Did the IS forces immediately scuttle the defeated jag warships around huntress? I know several were recoverable so the IS destroyed then to prevent that. Would another clan be within clan law to trial for the salvage?
Also what would have happened to the crews?
The SLDF captured 2 warships and the Jaguar merchant fleet, keeping them parked and uncharged near Huntress with their crews aboard, until Paul Moon and Baldur enacted their plan and made off with them. See "Forever Faithful" for details.
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The SLDF captured 2 warships and the Jaguar merchant fleet, keeping them parked and uncharged near Huntress with their crews aboard, until Paul Moon and Baldur enacted their plan and made off with them. See "Forever Faithful" for details.
Dang I gotta get this book!
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Dang I gotta get this book!
Yep. It really is a must read for any Smoke Jaguar fan.
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Yep. It really is a must read for any Smoke Jaguar fan.
Forever faithful may address this but with their fall being so sudden did the jags have additional warships which were cached and not claimed?
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Forever faithful may address this but with their fall being so sudden did the jags have additional warships which were cached and not claimed?
None that were mentioned. My best guess would be that the Jags traded them away years ago for other resources.
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None that were mentioned. My best guess would be that the Jags traded them away years ago for other resources.
They did have the quick silver mongoose cached away but that is the only one I can think of
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The Star League warships are interesting for the 'economies' of the Clans . . . basically they are a economic storehouse that is not tapped. They represent several times the GDP of the Clans that own them. Yes, small ships have been made and the very 'wealthy' Bears started to produce two superbattleships, but they did not complete them or build the 3rd until they had a whole Occupation Zone to draw on. A case could also be made that trading their Homeworlds Enclaves is what got them the capital to finish/build the three Leviathans as warships. Otherwise all we see is some building of corvettes, frigates, destroyers and light carriers (York). Not even the Snow Ravens carried out a mass production ship building program, instead they built one offs- which had to hurt them b/c of economy of scale.
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On the other hand we have something like the Nightlord. So far we know of 8 existing ships - it is unlikely one was destroyed in the undocumented past. And only one ship the Ravens build for themself.
But in the end we have to acknowledge that the clans are able to produce large scale battleships. There was just no need to have them - until the WoR and that is long after the fall of the Jaguars.
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Just discovered I could edit my thread title. I have added “ marks around save. As when I started this thread it was for ideas on how to absorb or keep the jags as a vassal for another clan
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Ahhh, a vassal Clan led by Khan Biff Tannen.
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Ahhh, a vassal Clan led by Khan Biff Tannen.
Back to the future we go!
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Great Scott!
For this we'll need Calvin's underpants to be purple, he hates that color the most.
Alright.... *sigh* You can Trial him for that decision.
TT
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They did have the quick silver mongoose cached away but that is the only one I can think of
Who had the security clearance to know of the location of the quick silver mongoose and or any other cached ships? Khan and star admiral only? Merchant factor?
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Definitely not anyone who wasn't a member of the Warrior Caste, but high ranking scientists and technicians might have the info anyway.
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Would it not be quite interesting if in the continuation of the ilClan story arc the Fidelis would be betrayed again and then annihilated?
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Without rereading the thread, do we know Jag holdings before their destruction?
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Without rereading the thread, do we know Jag holdings before their destruction?
Simply put, we know as much as the writers want us to know, at this time. There are people waiting for the Wolverines to reappear...
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Without rereading the thread, do we know Jag holdings before their destruction?
You can get a pretty solid list from Warriors of Kerensky w/comparison to Wars of Possession and Explorer Corps.
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You can get a pretty solid list from Warriors of Kerensky w/comparison to Wars of Possession and Explorer Corps.
Besides the two galaxies on huntress, which had been noted as paper tigers, did the jags have a dedicated homeworlds defense galaxy?
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They may have at one time, but that was probably cannibalized after the twin debacles of Luthien and Tukayyid.
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Besides the two galaxies on huntress, which had been noted as paper tigers, did the jags have a dedicated homeworlds defense galaxy?
There was... something. Despite a line in the novels to the effect of everything the Jaguars had was at Huntress, there are a few references in some of the more recent TROs to fighting in the other Jaguar holdings that yielded up some choice salvage, for example. No units named, no idea what size though it was unlikely to amount to much.
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There was... something. Despite a line in the novels to the effect of everything the Jaguars had was at Huntress, there are a few references in some of the more recent TROs to fighting in the other Jaguar holdings that yielded up some choice salvage, for example. No units named, no idea what size though it was unlikely to amount to much.
I expect that the jags did something similar to what the hellions did during the wars of reaving: constantly moving around troops in the homeworlds to make it appear stronger. I think the lower tier units like the huntress galaxies had constantly been mined for troops and gear.
Which again due to their pride and world view prevented them for asking for help before it was too late
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IMHO they had only these two Galaxies, but the garrisons und of their other Homeworlds possessions (binaries or trinaries) did belong to the Huntress Galaxies.
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Yeah . . . garrison organization is more structural for theater command rather than frontline organization for attacks. Rossou was the commander of all Homeworld forces IIRC, not just Huntress- or it seemed to be presented that way. As far as specifically named bits . . . well, there were troops on Tranquil and you had some on Kirin who were guarding the Xerxes factory IIRC.
Additionally, Osis recalled all the garrison troops who would answer to Strana Mechty when he formed and led his relief force to Huntress- came out to be . . . a cluster? two? that formed from bits & pieces. A star here, a binary there . . .
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Yeah . . . garrison organization is more structural for theater command rather than frontline organization for attacks. Rossou was the commander of all Homeworld forces IIRC, not just Huntress- or it seemed to be presented that way. As far as specifically named bits . . . well, there were troops on Tranquil and you had some on Kirin who were guarding the Xerxes factory IIRC.
Additionally, Osis recalled all the garrison troops who would answer to Strana Mechty when he formed and led his relief force to Huntress- came out to be . . . a cluster? two? that formed from bits & pieces. A star here, a binary there . . .
The jaguars heart unit you mean? I thought they were almost solahma but still on the active rolls?
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He gathered up whatever he could . . . the Heart were dregs of the dregs, but I thought he had another cluster under his direct command- so 2 clusters dropped I thought but its been a while since I read those books . . . like over 15 years?
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The SLDF captured 2 warships and the Jaguar merchant fleet, keeping them parked and uncharged near Huntress with their crews aboard, until Paul Moon and Baldur enacted their plan and made off with them. See "Forever Faithful" for details.
Did the wider clans know about this? Also I thought the jags purged their merchant fleet during the golden century?
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Considering Scorpions pursued them . . .
And perhaps merchant fleet was the wrong word, transport would be better b/c some of the JS were from the evac of the IS and others would have been what brought Osis' remnants to the system.
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The thing to remember, to me, is that the Clan way dictated that the Jaguars HAD to go it alone. What the Jags saw as the Wolves (and Falcons) abandoning them to their fates, 'betraying' them, was merely the Clans practicing their rules. If you can't take on an enemy coming at you like this, you're too weak to contribute to the next generation of Kerensky's children- whether that be a warrior failing, or even an entire Clan. For the Jaguars to even admit wanting help was a massive loss of face. Had another Clan jumped in, really you'd have a situation not unlike the Burrock absorption later- in a matter between two forces, a third party interfered, a massive violation of Clan law- or at the very minimum, an admission that one side of the conflict is too weak to win without needing assistance, which might be even worse. In this case, even if Serpent is defeated, the Jaguars are doomed- someone is going to declare an Absorption or some such over their conduct, and they- and the Clan that helped them- are tainted and weak in the eyes of their comrades.
Rambling, I know, but just based on the Clan's own rules the Jags faced their fate and failed- a far better fate than succeeding through dezgra.
I wanted to go way back to this point. Recall that the diamond sharks had gone so far to assemble a relief force to save the jags. This stopped not by an argument around the legality of the action but by going after the khans heritage.
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Because Ian Hawker was always sucking up to the Jags & Falcons, his Crusader fanboi idols. Now . . . interesting question is, how did Vlad know Ian was making the effort and how did he know the navigation course so he could meet him?
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Because Ian Hawker was always sucking up to the Jags & Falcons, his Crusader fanboi idols. Now . . . interesting question is, how did Vlad know Ian was making the effort and how did he know the navigation course so he could meet him?
Personal theory is that the cooler heads amongst the sharks who scorned hawkers zany schemes tipped the wolves off via the chatter web.
But the sharks did have the naval and ground forces to do the job. Someone(s) decided however that it was not “ best for business”
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The Shark Foxes had enough of Crusader shenanigans by that point and were noticeably changing back to their Warden stance by the time of the Jaguar annihilation.
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Plus the Shark Foxes feelings for the Smoked Kitties were not tremendously friendly.
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Plus the Shark Foxes feelings for the Smoked Kitties were not tremendously friendly.
Very true culturally they were polar opposites. But my question stands: so legally they could have done the rescue?
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Sure . . . right up until another Clan did like Vlad.
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Very true culturally they were polar opposites. But my question stands: so legally they could have done the rescue?
The Clans have no legal system, save might. If you are perceived to be strong enough, as with CSJ for a very long time, you can go unchallenged. If you can defeat a challenger, that's the law. The Clans have plenty of silly rules, which is enforced more by fear and threats of harm, than by civic consciousness...
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In the Clans, might is right.
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The Clans have no legal system, save might. If you are perceived to be strong enough, as with CSJ for a very long time, you can go unchallenged. If you can defeat a challenger, that's the law. The Clans have plenty of silly rules, which is enforced more by fear and threats of harm, than by civic consciousness...
Got it. Any clan which wanted to publicly help the jags had to have both the political and military juice to make any detractors back down.
As has been stated here earlier, osis made a fatal error by coming to the grand council in the way he did, by not factoring the general disdain the jags were held in and vlad and marthes desire to see him fall...
Cutting a quite side deal with a crusader minded khan or kindraa leader would have gotten him the short term breathing room he needed.
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It's doubtful that any single Clan could have offered enough support to save the Jaguars from the amount of force that Operation Bulldog brought down on them. A single Kindraa definitely couldn't have. Appealing to the entire council was Osis's last Hail Mary attempt.
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Got it. Any clan which wanted to publicly help the jags had to have both the political and military juice to make any detractors back down.
Indeed, such a move would have been painting a target on their own backs, an invitation to a feeding frenzy. The Clans were bred to compete with each other; Unity isn't natural to them because they are Social Darwinists.
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IMHO they had only these two Galaxies, but the garrisons und of their other Homeworlds possessions (binaries or trinaries) did belong to the Huntress Galaxies.
A number of times in the twilight of the clans story line, clan characters were shocked that only two galaxies defended huntress. Putting aside the appalling quality of the units was two galaxies really that small of a garrison?
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For a Clan's homeworld? Absolutely.
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Eh . . . it was the state of those galaxies IMO.
Considering a full strength frontline cluster was considered, a few years before that period anyway, to be the combat equivalent of a average mech regiment that would make it 10-ish mech regiments. But neither galaxy was at full strength in warriors or material- what warriors Rossou Howell DID have were dregs or those considered failures from Tukayyid (like the Elemental that auger'd in?) and his equipment had been so raided to build new clusters deployed in the OZ or just plain replacements that he was reduced to using what was left in old caches and IS isorla shipped back at the request of the scientists. Part of why he was happy to seize the Falcon mechs when Horse's DS crashed.
My opinion is that it was two whole garrison galaxies for all of the Jaguar's home world territory, with stars and trinaries assigned out to cover various enclaves. Remember, the Clans decided as part of Op Revival that the Invaders could not be the subject of a Trial of Possession while invading . . . and its questionable if that restriction was ever lifted since Tukayyid just resulted in a truce. It should also tell you the state of the Jags that they had no frontline clusters in the Homeworlds to respond to any of the other Clans.
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Eh . . . it was the state of those galaxies IMO.
Considering a full strength frontline cluster was considered, a few years before that period anyway, to be the combat equivalent of a average mech regiment that would make it 10-ish mech regiments. But neither galaxy was at full strength in warriors or material- what warriors Rossou Howell DID have were dregs or those considered failures from Tukayyid (like the Elemental that auger'd in?) and his equipment had been so raided to build new clusters deployed in the OZ or just plain replacements that he was reduced to using what was left in old caches and IS isorla shipped back at the request of the scientists. Part of why he was happy to seize the Falcon mechs when Horse's DS crashed.
My opinion is that it was two whole garrison galaxies for all of the Jaguar's home world territory, with stars and trinaries assigned out to cover various enclaves. Remember, the Clans decided as part of Op Revival that the Invaders could not be the subject of a Trial of Possession while invading . . . and its questionable if that restriction was ever lifted since Tukayyid just resulted in a truce. It should also tell you the state of the Jags that they had no frontline clusters in the Homeworlds to respond to any of the other Clans.
You bring up an interesting point re: the “ no attacks on invaders” rule when did that actually give way? FM wardens Commended a scorpion commander for getting the jump on the jaguars essentially from the moment he learned huntress was being attacked.
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While the Orbital Bombardment was an outlier, the simple fact is that the Jaguars were noted to be among the most if not the most brutal of the remaining Clans to their lower caste.
And yes, a cluster or two might have finished off TFS, but would just die under Bulldog's guns. For that, a Galaxy or more would be needed.
First, all of the Clans had a beef with the Jags -They were too afraid to step in when the Jags abused its lower castes, and Jag influence over the invasion was based on its status as the strongest Clan.
Orbital bombardment is a major Clan taboo -They equate it with primitive, IS brutality. And while dropping a nuke on five divisions of entrenched infantry might be overlooked, destroying a city with unruly civilians was enough for other invading Clans to bid away the forces capable of inflicting that kind of damage.
As far as Huntress is concerned, the Jags placed all of their eggs in the invasion basket. The fresh from the Sibko and Solamah defenders served as cannon fodder, stalling for the relief that never came, so it doesn't matter what size units they tossed into battle. CSJ was already finished as a fighting Clan before Huntress fell.
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First, all of the Clans had a beef with the Jags -They were too afraid to step in when the Jags abused its lower castes, and Jag influence over the invasion was based on its status as the strongest Clan.
Orbital bombardment is a major Clan taboo -They equate in with primitive, IS brutality. And while dropping a nuke on five divisions of entrenched infantry might be overlooked, destroying a city with unruly civilians was enough for other invading Clans to bid away the forces capable of inflicting that kind of damage.
As far as Huntress is concerned, the Jags placed all of their eggs in the invasion basket. The fresh from the Sibko and Solamah defenders served as cannon fodder, stalling for the relief that never came, so it doesn't matter what size units they tossed into battle. CSJ was already finished as a fighting Clan before Huntress fell.
So if the sharks relief Force had saved the jags as hawker intended what do you think would have been his next step? Absorption?
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So if the sharks relief Force had saved the jags as hawker intended what do you think would have been his next step? Absorption?
Do we even know the size of this Crusader Shark Relief Force? I really doubt it was that big in the first place (cluster possible maybe 2?) and it is easy to imagine how word got to Vlad. Yeah I am looking at you Merchant Factor Angus Labov!
Lets say that Hawker wins the fight he has scheduled with Vlad this time and thus the Crusader Wolves are won to this Crusader Relief effort banner. Other Crusader Clans may than start to be won over on the basis of this victory with the goal of driving out the InnerSphere taint and securing the Homeworlds for all time.
This far larger relief force annihilates the forces of the false Star League and a new hero is born, long live ilKhan Ian Hawker! As a Diamond Shark and the Great Protector of the Clans there could well be motions for Absorptions and perhaps even a new Clan or two is born. I think he would announce the Clan intention to abide by the Truce of Tukayyid giving the Sharks and their Clan allies time to build up and reorder things. Perhaps other Clans are added to the Invasion but what is certain is permeant contact with the InnerSphere, no pulling back.
I would approach the Nova Cat Abjuration a bit differently than canon as well maybe giving those loyalist Crusaders (must have been a few) a chance at redemption. Personally I hate waste as do the Clans and because of his efforts to save the Clan Homeworlds and some of the Clans from themselves this could stand. Another opportunity for Absorption certainly and perhaps the dawn of some new Clans as I said before.
Here is an interesting idea - the Diamond Sharks split off their Wardens to form Clan Sea Fox so they may go their own way. They are very friendly with the Nova Cats and an Absorption followed by a split would certainly be very possible. I like that a bunch!
I'd have Victor taken as a bondsman by the Cloud Cobras who takes a Phelan route within this Clan but the loss of so many key regiments and figures would do great damage to the Star League. Oh and Lincoln Osis would be dead here either killed in combat or stripped by Hawker for keeping secrecy and sucking but perhaps Brandon Howell would finally get a chance to lead the Jags or what is left now indebted to the Sharks.
How's that for starters?
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Do we even know the size of this Crusader Shark Relief Force? I really doubt it was that big in the first place (cluster possible maybe 2?) and it is easy to imagine how word got to Vlad. Yeah I am looking at you Merchant Factor Angus Labov!
Lets say that Hawker wins the fight he has scheduled with Vlad this time and thus the Crusader Wolves are won to this Crusader Relief effort banner. Other Crusader Clans may than start to be won over on the basis of this victory with the goal of driving out the InnerSphere taint and securing the Homeworlds for all time.
This far larger relief force annihilates the forces of the false Star League and a new hero is born, long live ilKhan Ian Hawker! As a Diamond Shark and the Great Protector of the Clans there could well be motions for Absorptions and perhaps even a new Clan or two is born. I think he would announce the Clan intention to abide by the Truce of Tukayyid giving the Sharks and their Clan allies time to build up and reorder things. Perhaps other Clans are added to the Invasion but what is certain is permeant contact with the InnerSphere, no pulling back.
I would approach the Nova Cat Abjuration a bit differently than canon as well maybe giving those loyalist Crusaders (must have been a few) a chance at redemption. Personally I hate waste as do the Clans and because of his efforts to save the Clan Homeworlds and some of the Clans from themselves this could stand. Another opportunity for Absorption certainly and perhaps the dawn of some new Clans as I said before.
Here is an interesting idea - the Diamond Sharks split off their Wardens to form Clan Sea Fox so they may go their own way. They are very friendly with the Nova Cats and an Absorption followed by a split would certainly be very possible. I like that a bunch!
I'd have Victor taken as a bondsman by the Cloud Cobras who takes a Phelan route within this Clan but the loss of so many key regiments and figures would do great damage to the Star League. Oh and Lincoln Osis would be dead here either killed in combat or stripped by Hawker for keeping secrecy and sucking but perhaps Brandon Howell would finally get a chance to lead the Jags or what is left now indebted to the Sharks.
How's that for starters?
Anything that gives Brandon Howell a push I dig! More thoughts later got some minis to paint!
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Do we even know the size of this Crusader Shark Relief Force? I really doubt it was that big in the first place (cluster possible maybe 2?) and it is easy to imagine how word got to Vlad. Yeah I am looking at you Merchant Factor Angus Labov!
Lets say that Hawker wins the fight he has scheduled with Vlad this time and thus the Crusader Wolves are won to this Crusader Relief effort banner. Other Crusader Clans may than start to be won over on the basis of this victory with the goal of driving out the InnerSphere taint and securing the Homeworlds for all time.
This far larger relief force annihilates the forces of the false Star League and a new hero is born, long live ilKhan Ian Hawker! As a Diamond Shark and the Great Protector of the Clans there could well be motions for Absorptions and perhaps even a new Clan or two is born. I think he would announce the Clan intention to abide by the Truce of Tukayyid giving the Sharks and their Clan allies time to build up and reorder things. Perhaps other Clans are added to the Invasion but what is certain is permeant contact with the InnerSphere, no pulling back.
I would approach the Nova Cat Abjuration a bit differently than canon as well maybe giving those loyalist Crusaders (must have been a few) a chance at redemption. Personally I hate waste as do the Clans and because of his efforts to save the Clan Homeworlds and some of the Clans from themselves this could stand. Another opportunity for Absorption certainly and perhaps the dawn of some new Clans as I said before.
Here is an interesting idea - the Diamond Sharks split off their Wardens to form Clan Sea Fox so they may go their own way. They are very friendly with the Nova Cats and an Absorption followed by a split would certainly be very possible. I like that a bunch!
I'd have Victor taken as a bondsman by the Cloud Cobras who takes a Phelan route within this Clan but the loss of so many key regiments and figures would do great damage to the Star League. Oh and Lincoln Osis would be dead here either killed in combat or stripped by Hawker for keeping secrecy and sucking but perhaps Brandon Howell would finally get a chance to lead the Jags or what is left now indebted to the Sharks.
How's that for starters?
Someone refresh my memory did hawker know how badly the jags were beaten up when he sent his force?
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Very true culturally they were polar opposites. But my question stands: so legally they could have done the rescue?
Adhering to laws isn't a strong Clan trait. If nobody stops them, a Clan does as it's leaders command. They may back down, if confronted by another Clan, but mere legalities never stopped a Clan from taking action. Excuses and justifications are usually an afterthought.
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He gathered up whatever he could . . . the Heart were dregs of the dregs, but I thought he had another cluster under his direct command- so 2 clusters dropped I thought but its been a while since I read those books . . . like over 15 years?
I thought the jaguars heart would not be considered bottom of the barrel but instead warriors who had not yet been demoted to solahma
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According to Sarna (so take with a grain of salt), the Jaguar's Heart was made up of mostly ex-warriors: trainers, designers, and liaison officers.
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Hawker probably was taking his whole re-built Alpha Galaxy as it was his personal command and frontline galaxies are designed to move. Real question is how well was it equipped? Since the saKhan was in charge of re-building and delegated a lot of the material replacement duties to Labov . . . its questionable if it was more combat capable than Sennet's Beta Galaxy, though I would expect more Crusaders in the ranks than any other Shark formation. Osis shared some information about what had happened, but indications were he was still hiding some of the information since he still was acting as Jaguar Khan (part of Vlad's charges) so Hawker had a clue but not the full picture. Besides, I think Serpent dealt with the HPG pretty quick. Hawker could move Alpha, filled with Crusaders in command positions and thus least likely to challenge, while moving any other galaxy or even cluster opened his actions up to Clan Council consideration or even challenge by another bloodnamed officer. Getting involved against the IS on Huntress would have presented the Wardens & Clan Council of the Sharks a fait accompli that would likely have compelled them to get involved until Hawker was killed.
After Alpha, Beta and the Spina galaxies would have been the 'easiest' to move into place . . . and would have finished everything the IS had to throw with ground forces & warships.
The Heart was made up of what Osis could strip- and it was that, he was breaking the Clan's operating ability by taking warriors from slots- to build any sort of formation with whatever weapons he could get his hands on. The name was for morale and to describe their efforts.
Nothing AFAIK from the legacy challenge would sway Vlad into helping the Jaguars on Huntress. Its not going to kick off a call of 'Crusaders UNITE!' among the Clans, Vlad's speech in the Grand Council pretty well summed it up. It would not be the end of the Clans, merely the end of a Clan proving its failure while the others learned, absorbed and moved on.
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Hawker probably was taking his whole re-built Alpha Galaxy as it was his personal command and frontline galaxies are designed to move. Real question is how well was it equipped? Since the saKhan was in charge of re-building and delegated a lot of the material replacement duties to Labov . . . its questionable if it was more combat capable than Sennet's Beta Galaxy, though I would expect more Crusaders in the ranks than any other Shark formation. Osis shared some information about what had happened, but indications were he was still hiding some of the information since he still was acting as Jaguar Khan (part of Vlad's charges) so Hawker had a clue but not the full picture. Besides, I think Serpent dealt with the HPG pretty quick. Hawker could move Alpha, filled with Crusaders in command positions and thus least likely to challenge, while moving any other galaxy or even cluster opened his actions up to Clan Council consideration or even challenge by another bloodnamed officer. Getting involved against the IS on Huntress would have presented the Wardens & Clan Council of the Sharks a fait accompli that would likely have compelled them to get involved until Hawker was killed.
After Alpha, Beta and the Spina galaxies would have been the 'easiest' to move into place . . . and would have finished everything the IS had to throw with ground forces & warships.
The Heart was made up of what Osis could strip- and it was that, he was breaking the Clan's operating ability by taking warriors from slots- to build any sort of formation with whatever weapons he could get his hands on. The name was for morale and to describe their efforts.
Nothing AFAIK from the legacy challenge would sway Vlad into helping the Jaguars on Huntress. Its not going to kick off a call of 'Crusaders UNITE!' among the Clans, Vlad's speech in the Grand Council pretty well summed it up. It would not be the end of the Clans, merely the end of a Clan proving its failure while the others learned, absorbed and moved on.
What a great summary thank you!
What naval assests especially warships would have been handy to escort the sharks? The serpent war fleet was pretty banged up by then and if I recall was hesitant to fight osiss black lion command ship
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Whatever was attached to Alpha, FMWC should list it.
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After reading forever faithful ( a good read!) it was interest to me that the jag warriors and civilians were shocked and hurt that no relief Force cane to their aid.
While this serves the plot of the book I am curious about this. Did the average clanner really have some notion of pan clan unity? Or at least the idea of mutual defense?
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After reading forever faithful ( a good read!) it was interest to me that the jag warriors and civilians were shocked and hurt that no relief Force cane to their aid.
While this serves the plot of the book I am curious about this. Did the average clanner really have some notion of pan clan unity? Or at least the idea of mutual defense?
Edit: was the average jag deluded about the prestige and respect their leadership had amongst their the wider clans?
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Edit: was the average jag deluded about the prestige and respect their leadership had amongst their the wider clans?
Do you mean "did the average Jag think the galaxy revolved around their Clan?"
Yes.
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Do you mean "did the average Jag think the galaxy revolved around their Clan?"
Yes.
Sounds about right
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Did the average clanner really have some notion of pan clan unity?
Or at least the idea of mutual defense?
No. The Clans were founded as eternally competing factions, to the point of annihilating the unworthy factions.
The founders had no expectation of the Clans ever being threatened by any external force. They believed that the IS would be nuked into the Stone Age without the Star League, which made the existence of the Houses all the more shocking, as it countered their narrative. Even during the invasion, the factions competed with each other and only gave nominal cooperation, as with the Jags and Nova Cats.
Prior to the invasion, the Clans never had a long range plan other than survival.
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Because Ian Hawker was always sucking up to the Jags & Falcons, his Crusader fanboi idols. Now . . . interesting question is, how did Vlad know Ian was making the effort and how did he know the navigation course so he could meet him?
Considering how elite of a warrior he was but how he was disliked by many of the warden minded officers I assume vlad got some detailed files via them!
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Considering how elite of a warrior he was but how he was disliked by many of the warden minded officers I assume vlad got some detailed files via them!
Edit: via a strategic chatterweb leak from wardens inside the shark high command
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He gathered up whatever he could . . . the Heart were dregs of the dregs, but I thought he had another cluster under his direct command- so 2 clusters dropped I thought but its been a while since I read those books . . . like over 15 years?
I always really liked the idea of the Jaguars heart but I thought it was staffed by vets who had NOT yet been deemed solahma but weren’t in an active unit?
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No such thing in the Clans.
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No such thing in the Clans.
How so? They were noted as trainers, test pilots etc are those automatically solahma?
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Pretty much. Once you've been transferred from active fighting, you're solahma.
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While I don’t recall it ever being stated I got the feeling the jags Brian caches had been tapped out long before their fall. Does that seem right?
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Hard to say with any certainty, though the presence of Inner Sphere isorla in active service among the Huntress garrison Galaxies wouldn't really indicate they had bunkers full of IICs and SLDF designs to fall back on.
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Everything about the 3050s was saying that the Jags' weak logistics and manufacturing ability was completely unable to keep up with the need for replacement mechs after Tukkyuid and the constant skirmishes after. Add to that, Tau Galaxy was created using resources that were cannibalized from other units and then destroyed before it even had a chance to be deployed? Yeah, if the Jags had any Brain Caches at all they'd have opened them.
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Everything about the 3050s was saying that the Jags' weak logistics and manufacturing ability was completely unable to keep up with the need for replacement mechs after Tukkyuid and the constant skirmishes after. Add to that, Tau Galaxy was created using resources that were cannibalized from other units and then destroyed before it even had a chance to be deployed? Yeah, if the Jags had any Brain Caches at all they'd have opened them.
Actually it might depend on where they were stored, if they were in another Clans territory the Smoke Jaguars might not have access to it.
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That would mean that they're no longer Jaguar caches.
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Everything about the 3050s was saying that the Jags' weak logistics and manufacturing ability was completely unable to keep up with the need for replacement mechs after Tukkyuid and the constant skirmishes after. Add to that, Tau Galaxy was created using resources that were cannibalized from other units and then destroyed before it even had a chance to be deployed? Yeah, if the Jags had any Brain Caches at all they'd have opened them.
Right! I remember now, tau galaxy had been stated as having enough spare parts etc “ to operate indefinitely” so losing those store houses was another major blow. In addition if the jags had gone after easier prey of old Brian caches that in of itself would have signal weakness right?
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Tau was created by splitting the Clan's rebuilding efforts, so instead of putting the majority of their effort into getting Alpha Galaxy rebuilt, you got a smaller Alpha and you got Tau. Tau was, IIRC, filled exclusively with new Warriors fresh from the Sibkos and new OmniMechs from the Homeworlds.
In addition if the jags had gone after easier prey of old Brian caches that in of itself would have signal weakness right?
Not particularly, no. I'm sure small territorial land-grab Trials would be right up a second-line unit's alley. It's also not as though the other Clans were ignorant of the fact the Jaguars bled white after Luthien and Tukayyid, and would thus need hardware. Probably a great opportunity for the other Clans to up their bids and really make the Jaguars work/pay if they wanted factory output, Brian Caches, resources, etc.
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Pretty much. Once you've been transferred from active fighting, you're solahma.
That's not quite right.
A solahma unit is generally an infantry unit made up of old or dying Clan warriors. Though often used as garrison forces, these units prefer to be used as shock troops. In this way, the aging warriors can serve their Clan to the bitter end, dying in combat - a death considered far more appropriate and honorable than dying in bed.[1][2]
Solahma is basically, sent to your death at the first opportunity troops.
2nd Line/Garrison Clusters, Trainer duty, etc etc is still a step up from..............
Your now Grunt Infantry who charges into battle looking to take a bullet as you kill the enemy in a glorious death.
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Second Line and Garrison Clusters are still part of the touman, and there's even a chance (not much of one, but it's still there) that you can earn enough prestige to be transferred back to a front line position. Getting assigned to a training position means that you're effectively no longer a warrior, your career is over.
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It wasn't the end of Joanna's career, though. She felt she was being punished for some transgression.
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I hear what your saying, but Joanna disagrees. ;)
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It wasn't the end of Joanna's career, though. She felt she was being punished for some transgression.
You talking about in I Am Jade Falcon, when she got back to the front thanks to agreeing to investigate something for the Khan in order to get transferred back to the Falcon Guard, or the transfer in Falcon Rising, which was the end of her career?
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Second Line and Garrison Clusters are still part of the touman, and there's even a chance (not much of one, but it's still there) that you can earn enough prestige to be transferred back to a front line position. Getting assigned to a training position means that you're effectively no longer a warrior, your career is over.
Is solahma noted as a status on your codex?
Also and if the jags had after say 3052 had wanted to allow freebirths or test downs to become warriors would that decision rest solely with the khan? Or would that have to be approved by the jag council of bloodnamed?
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Depends on the relative strength of each, but I think Osis could have pushed something like that through if he'd wanted to. The issue is that he and the council were both too rabidly conservative to even consider something like that.
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Depends on the relative strength of each, but I think Osis could have pushed something like that through if he'd wanted to. The issue is that he and the council were both too rabidly conservative to even consider something like that.
Look at the Clan Steel Vipers specifically Perigard Zalman to see an example. Actually the Steel Vipers and Smoke Jaguars were very similar with their opinions and challenges in conquering the Inner Sphere.
Another issue was the lack of battlemechs that Clan Smoke Jaguar had to begin with. Most of the Solhama units had captured Inner Sphere Mechs (C variants).
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Those weren't solhama units, as noted if you're solhama you're given a rifle, not a battlemech. And few of those IS mechs were equipped with Clantech, they were generally stock since the Jaguars didn't have the resources to upgrade them to Clantech.
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Those weren't solhama units, as noted if you're solhama you're given a rifle, not a battlemech. And few of those IS mechs were equipped with Clantech, they were generally stock since the Jaguars didn't have the resources to upgrade them to Clantech.
This is not correct.
The Clans do have Solahma cluster equipped with Mechs.
Among the 6 clusters defending Huntress were 4 Solahma clusters equipped with Battlemechs
Watchmen Galaxy: 44th and 63rd Solahma Cluster
Iron Guard Galaxy: 12th and 77th Solahma Cluster
(Source: Twilight of the Clans scenario)
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If in my scenario say the blood spirits wiped out serpent and reclaimed the jags genetic repository with the Jag remains what if any of the following could they claim as the victors:
1) Any salvage
2) Several " production runs" of prized sibkos
By my understanding and correct me if I am wrong the Clans have the ability to mass produce warriors but they are limited by the trainers, time and equipment of the clan itself right?
So could the Spirits demand " Give me 2 sibkos of Osis with a side of Moon elementals"
Not claiming the blood right but the actual sibkos new babies or young tykes
3) The actual blood rights
If the jags lost a refusal trial could the Spirits claim the exclusive blood lines or did that still need GC approval?
Wanted to bump up this question re: Sibkos can how that would be handled
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I think if the Blood Spirits wiped out Task Force Serpent, they could have dictated terms and declared themselves the rightful Absorbers of the Smoke Jaguars (In my opinion, the Grand Council would have been fine with this, they were that dysfunctional) . They would have full rights to do with the Jag bloodlines as they please, from trading bloodlines for material support, to the adoption of all current sibkos in training.
Edited due to autocorrupt
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Mass produce yes, still takes 18 years for those warriors to actually take the field. You could "birth" 5,000 warriors and graduate all of them, but it still takes 18 years before they take the field in your Touman. Gonna depend on exactly how many Iron Wombs you actually have available for the task.
Using it is a multi decade investment. I honestly doubt any clan had more than 300 Iron Wombs for each Phenotype. Each decanting 100 warriors every 9 months for each Phenotype. So call it 1,000 to 1,200 Iron Wombs per Clan. At least that would be my math on the issue. And under normal conditions and training hoping to get maybe 10 graduates out of each "birth" of 100.
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I honestly doubt any clan had more than 300 Iron Wombs for each Phenotype. Each decanting 100 warriors every 9 months for each Phenotype.
It’s not a continuous process. Trueborn generations were/are decanted every five years. So each clan probably has a lot more iron wombs.
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To be clear.
The 5 years "generation" thing has to do with giving a specific pairing 5 years before those parents are used again to start to see early test results.
I'd assume as soon as the wombs are done they start using them for a different set of parents for another sibko.
So I'm not sure how many they would actually need to keep up with losses.
Also, are all Sibko's 100? I forget but I thought there was some variation of 20-100 based on clan, just like some clans are pure pairing sibkos while others like the Wolves mixed them.
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The term "generation" always seemed stupid to me.
Hey, these 5 year olds look great, let mix their genes together in our next batch! ::)
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To be clear.
The 5 years "generation" thing has to do with giving a specific pairing 5 years before those parents are used again to start to see early test results.
I'd assume as soon as the wombs are done they start using them for a different set of parents for another sibko.
So I'm not sure how many they would actually need to keep up with losses.
Also, are all Sibko's 100? I forget but I thought there was some variation of 20-100 based on clan, just like some clans are pure pairing sibkos while others like the Wolves mixed them.
I wondered that as well and would higher prestige blood names warrant extra production runs?
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On that prestigious part, I'd think they're more rare, hence earned bloodnames, not bloodlines. I mean creating genetic material from stock is one thing, but to make more because it's prestigious is another.
TT
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It’s not a continuous process. Trueborn generations were/are decanted every five years. So each clan probably has a lot more iron wombs.
No, it is continous- FMWC, I am Jade Falcon, Marthe's Coventry training program, and numerous other sources. The Iron Wombs, training facilities, and instructors are constantly at work creating new warriors. Heck the most recent being Always Faithful talking about the range of sibbies Serpent took over.
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No, it is continous- FMWC, I am Jade Falcon, Marthe's Coventry training program, and numerous other sources. The Iron Wombs, training facilities, and instructors are constantly at work creating new warriors. Heck the most recent being Always Faithful talking about the range of sibbies Serpent took over.
That is what I thought as well. The bottle necks in terms of touman expansion were the trainers and facilities to train and gear for those who became warriors?
So for the jags with their very tough training and limited resource pool had no easy way to quickly bulk up their toumans.
The crusader wolves did a two step thing which addressed the man power issue. They did the harvest trials and basically press ganged the lower casts to pad the garrisons etc
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That is what I thought as well. The bottle necks in terms of touman expansion were the trainers and facilities to train and gear for those who became warriors?
So for the jags with their very tough training and limited resource pool had no easy way to quickly bulk up their toumans.
The crusader wolves did a two step thing which addressed the man power issue. They did the harvest trials and basically press ganged the lower casts to pad the garrisons etc
But only after half the touman- the part not involved in the Refusal War- misjumped into a black hole.
The Jags, as presented, had a problem in their inability to adapt. What they did and how they did it worked well when everyone used the same rules in the Home Worlds, their reputation let them get away with a lot of things as they scavenged against the weaker Clans. Did we ever get any indication the Jags used C models like the Falcons and other Clans did in their OZs- I know its on the MUL, but we never actually saw it in SB or fiction I think. I mean, Howell was executed for daring have IS salvage equip the garrison of Huntress- most Clans would have praised that for avoiding waste! Mechs were sitting in the IS without being used, empty ships from the OZ back to Home Worlds- win win! But no, it tarnished their image?
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Also, are all Sibko's 100? I forget but I thought there was some variation of 20-100 based on clan
Moderate clans have smaller sibkos (Wolves use 20) with fewer training deaths and washouts but rely on more challenging ToPs to ensure high quality in the touman. More conservative/radical clans have larger sibkos (up to 100), in which most of the sibkin die or wash out during training.
The term "generation" always seemed stupid to me.
Hey, these 5 year olds look great, let mix their genes together in our next batch! ::)
As a dad, it makes perfect sense. Pediatricians track growth (height, weight), test sight, hearing, and reflexes, assess pulmonary function, etc. from birth. Schools begin standardized testing in kindergarten.
There’s no reason the Clans wouldn’t do the same with their trueborn sibkin. And if most or all of the sibkin from a particular pairing of geneparents aren’t meeting expectations for growth, have myopia, have low IQs, etc., at five years, then the Scientist Caste would rethink that pairing for the next generation.
No, it is continous- FMWC, I am Jade Falcon, Marthe's Coventry training program, and numerous other sources... Always Faithful talking about the range of sibbies Serpent took over.
WCSB is clear that “New generations are produced in this fashion every ten years, creating thousands of new warriors and adding to the ranks of the citizenry.”
I’ve seen nothing in later products that contradicts this statement about trueborn generations except to shorten them to five years. It makes sense as some delay between generations is needed so that sibkin can mature, their development can be assessed, and the Scientist Caste can plan the next generation of geneparent pairings based on that (and other) data.
Sibkin facilities, trainers, etc. are going to be busy no matter the size and timing of trueborn generations because the Clans abhor waste. They’re going to size those resources to match the number of sibkin. Clans are not going to have large numbers of empty training facilities and trainers twiddling their thumbs regardless of whether the eugenics program pumps out infants every year, every five years, or every ten years.
It’s also not surprising that Serpent found sibkin with a range of ages. Even if each generation of Jaguar trueborn has the exact same birthday, you’d still have newborn/toddler, kindergartner/elementary-age, secondary-age, and college-age sibkin with five-year centers.
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Like I said, every other source since counters that- FMWC which is what I sited- talked about how Ulric sent a selection from the sibkos between ages X and Y that would give the Wardens a trickle of replacements until their program came on line. Marthe had sibkos of various ages fighting their Trials of Position as part of her Coventry offensive to blood her replacement troops.
The Invasion Wolves had large and small training facilities, the size of the sibko depends on the size of the facility.
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FMWC which is what I sited- talked about how Ulric sent a selection from the sibkos between ages X and Y
FMWC only states that Ulric sent sibkos ranging from 2 to 14 years of age. That’s not inconsistent with generations on five-year centers. The bulk of the sibkos at the time Ulric sent them would have been 3, 8, and 13 years of age, with a few falling just outside at 2 and 4, 7 and 9, and 12 and 14 years of age, depending on exactly where their decanting dates fell relative to the date Ulric sent them.
Marthe had sibkos of various ages fighting their Trials of Position as part of her Coventry offensive to blood her replacement troops.
I don’t know that quote, but again, trueborn generations separated by five years will still create a sibkin population with various ages at any particular point in time.
The Invasion Wolves had large and small training facilities, the size of the sibko depends on the size of the facility.
I don’t think there’s a 1:1 correlation between the size of training facilities and the size of sibkos, at least in the Wolves. WCSB states “scientists produced 20 children per birthing from the genetic material of one pair” and that the Clan then “raised this ‘sibko’ (sibling company)”.
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Curious, how long is a " standard " gestational period? And would advanced fertility medical care have fast growth chemicals or would it be " all natural "?
Maybe this will solve the problem of how much time was needed.
TT
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Hey, these 5 year olds look great, let mix their genes together in our next batch! ::)
That first review to me always seemed like it should be "medical defects" & "early learning" issues v/s are they showing signs of promise as a mechwarrior.
If a match showed to have a lot of "problems" in the first 5 years they might decide not to repeat it at 5 years & wait to see more results at 10 years.
It might also not even be an issue of repeating that exact same match but instead, does either parent get used in a different match.
For example:
If Joe Kerensky & Lisa Ward create a batch of "Sloths" (Goonies) then they don't get used again for anything.
But assuming they have normal kindergartners at the 5 year point then they are split up & paired up with Mike Connors & Amy Raddick for 2 new batches in the next run.
If on the other hand say by 10 years its a full sibko of baby ninja geniuses, then they repeat the Joe/Lisa pairing again.
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FMWC only states that Ulric sent sibkos ranging from 2 to 14 years of age. That’s not inconsistent with generations on five-year centers. The bulk of the sibkos at the time Ulric sent them would have been 3, 8, and 13 years of age, with a few falling just outside at 2 and 4, 7 and 9, and 12 and 14 years of age, depending on exactly where their decanting dates fell relative to the date Ulric sent them.
It can be consistent if you realize the "Generation" is applied to a specific pairing, not the entire sibko system.
Each "Generation" of a specific blood pairing is done no closer than 5 years.
So using my names from above. Joe & Lisa had a batch in 3050. But 2 years later a pairing of Ulric & Jera Carns was used to create a batch.
So that every 9 month - 1 year or so, a group from 1 creche is moved on to a sibko while the nursemaids are then free to start caring for a new batch of babies.
But you have many sets of nursemaids all over your homeworlds.
So the Joe/Lisa batch in 3050 might be from an Eden based facility.
While the Ulric/Jera 3052 pairing was done at Tranquil.
The nursemaids handle the creche for 10 years but not every creche starts at the same time.
Similar to how Basic Training is handled in the Army, our battalion would have a different company graduate new recruits every 2-4 weeks & then start a new cycles a week or 2 after that.
The entire battalion didn't start/graduate on the same day.
Using the 20/100 figures & also Clan Wolf's "mixed sibko" system to create an example.
5 batches of 20 from 5 different pairings are born on the same day.
So we have the Joe/Lisa kids as well as 4 other sets of blood named.
For 10 years they all live in 5 separate creches on Eden.
Then at age 10 those that have survived are combined into 1 mixed sibko of those 5 different blood parents.
2 years later the Ulric/Jera pairing is born along w/ several other pairings on Eden.
Maybe a year later a batch on Strana Mechty is produced.
I don't know if the Wolves would have creches on every world but I'd assume they have training facilities on at least 2-3.
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And while WCSB might be interpreted that way every other source indicates its a continual process of decanting, raising, and go to training.
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Got it. Any clan which wanted to publicly help the jags had to have both the political and military juice to make any detractors back down.
As has been stated here earlier, osis made a fatal error by coming to the grand council in the way he did, by not factoring the general disdain the jags were held in and vlad and marthes desire to see him fall...
Cutting a quite side deal with a crusader minded khan or kindraa leader would have gotten him the short term breathing room he needed.
I am reading the fall of huntress novels again and after a grinding campaign on April 29th osis was set to go back to strana mechty for help again. If he had cut a quite deal could renforcements been back in time?
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And while WCSB might be interpreted that way every other source indicates its a continual process of decanting, raising, and go to training.
/Looks up.....I wasn't implying differently.
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If he had cut a quite deal could renforcements been back in time?
Diplomacy wasn't much of a Jaguar trait...I could see them getting hopelessly ripped off by giving away too much.
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Diplomacy wasn't much of a Jaguar trait...I could see them getting hopelessly ripped off by giving away too much.
Oh 100%!!
They were totally desperate at that point. My question is could any units have gotten back to huntress before victor arrives and without the other clans funding out about it before they landed?
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Oh 100%!!
They were totally desperate at that point. My question is could any units have gotten back to huntress before victor arrives and without the other clans funding out about it before they landed?
The problem would be: Could anything be kept secret at Strana Mechty? Can a jumphip arrive, its shuttles deploy, and people embark secretly, in the most secured system in Clan space? Can even the Khan of one clan communicate with another without a chain of middlemen, each a link in a chain of security? I have serious doubts due to the poor record the clans have of keeping secrets.
Even with decent security, once a clan responds, who wouldn't notice the activation, mobilization and movement of large amounts of military assets on the part of one clan? Somebody will notice and ask questions...or take action.
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/Looks up.....I wasn't implying differently.
I was referring to Natasha's point.
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And while WCSB might be interpreted that way every other source indicates its a continual process of decanting, raising, and go to training.
None of which contradicts and all of which is consistent with Clan trueborn generations being decanted every five years, right down to the numbers used in FMWC.
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How? You are inferring too much from a 5 year generation line Ulric throws out. The five years encompasses the basic turnover of most of the touman- call it the life expectancy of the average warrior, which means that around half of the warriors of a particular year would have died or been invalided out in that timeframe. Elementals would have a shorter cycle time than Mechwarriors IMO, so branches probably have their own timeframe but the average is again that 5 years. Ulric sent a trickle of replacements through those sibkos for the years it will be until the Warden Wolves had their own programs produce warriors. Which does not imply any 3 year absence between your 5 year generations.
Further, it would be a disaster and defies logic. Consider the big Bear/Horse battle for Tokasha that involved galaxies. IF that battle had happened say 1 year after your supposed decanting then both of those Clans would be crippled from personnel losses when both had galaxies get mauled for the next four years and be vulnerable to other Clans for that time. They could make up or stop-gap the material losses but nearly 3 years without replacement troops would encourage further predatory attacks
Joanna on Coventry or as part of the Coventry campaign as written up in a 'Twilight' arc novel IIRC mentally monologues about the new warriors being tested, ranging from 18 to 14 IIRC and she even divides them between the 18-16 year old and the younger warriors. Its the part where she accidentally kills one nicknamed Shield. It has been a while since I read the Jade Phoenix trilogy but IIRC Aiden as a freebirth gets to be a target for a couple of different year classes of sibkos.
Forever Faithful says Huntress had 18 sibko training centers, we know they had some clusters forming from graduates (Op Serpent books), I want to say Vic's bodyguard Tiamar had a bunch of 8 or 9 (or younger?) year olds in the sewer, and a woman was sheltering some 10-12 year olds from the Lurking Jaguar sibko.
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How? You are inferring too much from a 5 year generation line Ulric throws out.
Not inferring anything from one line. It’s the combination of WCSB and later references correcting the 10-year generations in the WCSB to 5-year generations.
It’s also common sense. Leaving time for sibkin to mature and warriors to perform, surveying the growth and performance of every sibkin and bloodnamed warrior in a touman, assessing that data, and using that data to create geneparent pairings for the next generation of warriors is like performing a national census, evaluating thousands of incoming college class applications, and selecting parents for thousands of orphans. The are reasons why the US census is performed once every ten years, why colleges select the vast majority of their freshmen only once a year, and why processes like childhood adoption can take months to years. We shouldn’t expect the creation of Clan trueborn generations to be any less intensive or time-consuming. More so, in fact, given how the trueborn represents the pinnacle of Clan society.
The five years encompasses the basic turnover of most of the touman
Toumans don’t turn over every five years. Per CWoK, Clan warriors have an _average_ life expectancy of 45 years. (45.2 years to be specific!) Trueborns usually undergo their first Trial of Position or Blooding around 20 years. So, all other things being equal, about half of a touman will turn over every 25 years.
Ulric sent a trickle of replacements through those sibkos for the years it will be until the Warden Wolves had their own programs produce warriors.
I saw no quote to that effect in FMWC. FMWC states that Ulric sent sibkos with Clan Wolf-in-Exile that ranged from 2 to 14 years of age at the time Ulric sent them. Per my upstream message, that’s actually consistent with Wolf trueborn generations that are five years apart, specifically with sibkos that were mostly composed of 3-, 8-, and 13-year olds at the time Ulric sent them.
If Ulric did order his Scientist Caste to create a continuous “trickle of replacements” in preparation for the creation of Clan Wolf-in-Exile, then Ulric ordered his scientists to deviate from the 5-year standard for that special circumstance. That is not representative of the 5-year cycle that the Clan Scientist Caste normally uses to assess, evaluate, plan, gestate, and decant new trueborn generations. (But again, I’ve seen no evidence that Ulric even did that.)
Further, it would be a disaster and defies logic. Consider the big Bear/Horse battle for Tokasha that involved galaxies. IF that battle had happened say 1 year after your supposed decanting then both of those Clans would be crippled from personnel losses when both had galaxies get mauled for the next four years and be vulnerable to other Clans for that time.
First, per TP:Tokasha, only two galaxies were involved from each side, which represents a relatively small fraction of the relatively large Bear and Horse toumans. Even if one of these Clans suffered 100% casualties in two galaxies, either of these Clans has the depth to cover their assets by redeploying their existing galaxies. (Especially the loser, as they don’t have to garrison Tokasha!)
Moreover, when Clan toumans are truly devastated, they have numerous replacements at their disposal other than trueborn sibkin fresh from their ToPs. There are tons of references in the canon to secondline and garrison galaxies/clusters being moved to frontline status, to increasing the proportion of freeborn warriors in toumans, to harvest trials against other Clans to fill gaps in toumans, to contract bids with other Clans to cover gaps in toumans, to trueborn reserves in lower castes being called up, etc.
So even if the next trueborn generation is a few years away, a major loss is not the end of the world for a touman. In fact, if there was a continuous stream of trueborn warriors, then Clans would not have to resort to these other methods for filling depleted ranks. The existence of these other methods for filling depleted touman ranks is actually strong evidence that the Clans do not maintain a continuous stream of new, trueborn warriors.
Joanna on Coventry or as part of the Coventry campaign as written up in a 'Twilight' arc novel IIRC mentally monologues about the new warriors being tested, ranging from 18 to 14 IIRC and she even divides them between the 18-16 year old and the younger warriors.
Just like a grade in elementary or secondary school, you would expect a three-year range of ages at any particular point in time for a Clan trueborn generation, depending on where decanting dates line up with that particular point in time. For example, at any particular point in time this past school year, my kindergartner’s grade had old 4-year olds, 5-year olds, and young 6-year olds.
I can’t confirm the Twilight quote or those numbers like I did the FMWC reference. (Sorry, I just don’t have the time to search several novels.) But if accurate, a four-year spread might be indicative that the Falcons were not producing trueborn generations every five years at that time. But it’s not definitive proof that the Falcons had a continuous supply of new trueborns, either. Maybe all the Falcons had done was push their Scientist Caste to squeeze their 5-year cycle by six months on either end. (That would be understandable given the pressures of Operation Revival and the Refusal War.). The resulting four-cycle could produce the numbers claimed from the Twilight cycle. But we just don’t know.
Forever Faithful says Huntress had 18 sibko training centers
Which doesn’t mean anything in the context of this argument unless Forever Faithful also provides some info on sibkin ages at those centers. (I think you’re implying that Huntress has 18 centers each representing one year of sibkin maturation. But unless Forever Faithful actually states something to that effect, that’s just one possible implication and not proof of anything.)
Look, I’m not the Clan canon police or anything. Your headcanon and campaigns are your own. All I’m saying is that we have some very clear statements in the canon that the Clans produce new trueborn generations every five years, that these statements are consistent with the age range of the sibkos that Ulric sent with the Wolves-in-Exile, and that these statements are consistent with the existence of the many other methods that the Clans use to replace losses in their toumans in the absence of a continuous stream of new trueborns. I also think these statements are consistent with common sense concerning the timelines needed to allow sibkin to mature and bloodnamed warriors to perform and for the Scientist Caste to survey and assess the prior generations and plan the next one. The only potential evidence that might be inconsistent is the Falcon age range from the Twilight novels, and even that, if accurate and true, can be explained multiple ways. We have zero statements or definitive evidence from the canon that the Clans decant continuous streams of new trueborns. Instead, we have clear statements, dispositive evidence, and I’d argue quite a bit of logic to the contrary.
Hope this helps. My two Kerenskies. YMMV...
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@Natasha:
Here is the problem I'm seeing in your analogy of Freshmen per Year v/s 5 Year Generation at a time.
It would be like saying the entire state your in (clan) only gets pregnant every 20 years since that is a generation.
Or like saying, that highschools only take in new students once every 4 years & they graduate that group as seniors before another group comes in.
Apply this to 2-year JR. highs & 6 year grade schools equally.
To use my Basic Training analogy from above, it would be like if the entire Brigade all started new BT/AIT classes on the same day. Instead of every 2-4 weeks a different company starts.
Think about the cluster-fowl that would be when the entire brigade hits week 7 & needs to use the Rifle Range at the same time.
Or the Drivers course for Tank Driving classes.
Or heck, just access to enough tanks to train 5 battalions at the same time instead of JUST the guys that are on Week 9 for driving, or gunnery, or maintenance, or whatever.
Heck, look at from the Clan Canisters prospective.
So they get used for 9 months & then Not again for 5 YEARS?
Talk about the deterioration of skills.
What do you think those Scientists & Techs would be doing for 5 years?
Sorry, it just makes far more sense with logistics perspective if you have a limited # of canisters & they get used every 9-12 months. And then that "litter" gets sent to a creche family of keepers who has just sent their 10 year olds off to a Sibko.
Then a year later a different family gets a new batch of babies after their kids move on.
That way one batch of canisters is keeping multiple familiy/creche units going at a time.
Testing of the kids is always going on, development in size, reflexes, intelligence, health, etc etc.
After 5 years they decide how they want to proceed with those parents.
They also look at what the parents have done if they are still alive.
Have they taken over worlds single-handedly in the last 5 years?
Did the parents get disgraced?
What about previous generations made from either of the parents? Have they sucked or exceeded?
All that can be taken into account to decide if that parent's genes are going to be used again.
And if it all looks good......Then, after the 5 years, they make another identical batch.
Or a different mix, but, I've always read that 5 years is how long they way for THAT PAIRING before they repeat it.
Just the term "Generation". In our terms its 20 years. But there are different "Generations" all throughout the population.
You could have the 60's group & the 40's group, but that doesn't mean there isn't a 50's group.
And as Colt mentioned, can you imagine a military that only has Repple-depple every 5 years?
When I was in a new unit building up, we got new buses of troops every few weeks till full & then a trickle as we had openings from transfers out & injuries.
The idea of cannibalizing 2nd line units for Front Line only happened because of the extreme 80% losses from Front Line forces in the Refusal War.
And then you'd be stuck waiting 20 years to be able to rebuild those 2nd line units.
Even "Harvest" wars was something of a fluke idea Vlad had to take advantage of the lust so many Home clans had to get to the IS.
Stuff like that hadn't occurred in the past short of Absorption trials.
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Way of the Clans indicated a Trial of Position taking place off in the distance, as Aidan and his sibko looked on in the dark. This was a year or so before Aidan and Marthe's own ToP.
Edit
Oh, and Aidan as Jorge. They may be freeborn, but the new group was a year or two behind Aidan. And they had to deal with their trueborn peer sibkos, such as be opfor during trueborn training and whatnot.
It's pretty clear this is a continual process of training and graduating new warriors likely every year.
And someone could always ask the authors or developers...
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It would be like saying the entire state your in (clan) only gets pregnant every 20 years since that is a generation.
I don’t see this as an issue for the Clans, for several reasons.
One, it’s a five-year trueborn generation planning cycle, not 20 years (obviously).
Two, the trueborn generation cycle produces a huge excess of warrior candidates that wash out (or die) during training and ToPs, anyway. In some cases, the canon indicates that as small as a few percent of newborn sibkin become warriors. Even with a five-year trueborn generation planning cycle, Clan toumans are not suffering for a lack of sibkin. (In fact, all these excess trueborns was one of the secondary reasons the trueborn program was created in the first place, because it also helped artificially boost Clan population growth.)
Three, the trueborn population is a very small fraction (less than 1%) of the overall Clan population. 99%+ of the remaining Clan population is still making babies the old fashioned way outside the 5-year trueborn planning cycle.
Or like saying, that highschools only take in new students once every 4 years & they graduate that group as seniors before another group comes in.
Apply this to 2-year JR. highs & 6 year grade schools equally.
I don’t see this as a problem, either. If a four-year school needs X teachers to cover Y students, it doesn’t matter whether the students’ birthdates are spread over four years or one year. If it’s the former, then X/4 teachers will cover Y/4 students each year, as we do in our schools. If it’s the latter, then all X teachers will stay with all Y students for all four years, as I suspect (and I think the canon fiction indicates) happens in Clan creches, training centers, and other sibko whatchamacallits
To use my Basic Training analogy from above
I’m not current or ex-military, but I totally get the logistics issues you’re raising. They’re accurate and legitimate, and I have no argument against them.
That said, we’re not talking about your unit, service, or military. We’re talking about Clan toumans and societies, which are very different from the US and other modern-day militaries and societies. Clanner priorities are way out of whack compared to our own.
To use one example, in their ToPs, the Clans routinely destroy one, maybe two or more, top-of-the-line omnimechs just qualify a sibkin for the warrior caste and determine their rank. That’s just nutty. It would be like destroying one or more F-22s or Abrams tanks for every cadet out of fighter school or tank crew out of armor training. It gets even nuttier in Trials of Bloodright and Grand Melees. In those, whole clusters of mechs — the equivalent of wings of our fighter aircraft or battalions of our armor units — are destroyed just to identify one geneparent for future trueborn generations.
If the Clans are willing to expend that much horrendously expensive military material just to determine who gets to be a warrior and who gets to be a geneparent, then I have no doubt that the Clans are willing to expend whatever resources are necessary to support their five-year trueborn generation planning cycle. What’s the cost of additional iron wombs, training facilities, shooting ranges, and training personnel compared to the cost of all the omnimechs that get junked every five years testing the warrior and bloodname candidates that come out of those trueborn gestation and training programs? I’d venture it’s relatively small by comparison. (Maybe even an afterthought or rounding error in whatever constitutes a Clan or touman’s budget.)
Again, I absolutely think your logistical points about military recruitment, training, rotation, replenishment, etc. today are spot on. My point is that the Clans are not that kind of military or society, and we have to put ourselves in their somewhat alien minds to understand why certain things are the way they are in the Clans.
This may not help, but I think it’s no mistake that the Clans use Mongol terms like touman and khan. I think Boy Peterson or whoever is responsible for first writing up the Clans wanted to be explicit in how Clan society is more totally geared for war like those ancient “barbarian” societies, and not like the Houses in BT or our own modern societies. I dabble in Norse studies, and I find the Clans to have much more in common with the Viking mindset and outlook (and similar Migration Era and post-Migration Era peoples) than anything medieval or modern. Much like how the Clans expend multi-zillion Kerensky military hardware on Trials of Position and Bloodright, the Norse and similar societies buried swords, horses, ships and other invaluable (for them) resources with their warriors and leaders instead of handing them down to family and friends. I don’t think the similarities are an accident.
What do you think those Scientists & Techs would be doing for 5 years?
This is more in my wheelhouse as an astrophysics major turned engineering program manager.
I think the Clans and the Scientist Caste approach each trueborn generation as a major engineering systems development project. They’re trying to build the optimum touman (or optimum incoming element of their touman) with each new generation. It’s probably a lengthy process that’s not terribly dissimilar at a high level from how a new weapons system gets developed today.
The Scientist Caste probably has to start with requirements from their customer(s) in the Warrior Caste, which itself probably spends considerable time assessing threats, evaluating unit performance, setting goals, and making plans that impact those requirements for the next generation (e.g., we need how many warriors of what phenotypes with what spread of characteristics). In parallel, the Scientist Caste also has to gather and normalize tons of data on sibkin growth and trueborn warrior codex performance across their entire training program and touman.
Then, and I’m guessing this is what they spend most of their time on, the Scientist Caste has to turn that data into information, which probably involves endless debates over qualitative judgements. Do two codex kills against ancient limping Mercury mechs on a bandit hunt equal one cored assault omnimech kill during a formal inter-Clan trial? Are any of those kills evidence of the leadership, initiative, tactical thinking, or strategic insight that the Warrior Caste listed as its top four requirements for the next trueborn generation? Does that codex really indicate a proclivity for insubordination or did that warrior just have a string of bad commanders?
With that information in hand, the Scientist Caste then has to analyze what mix of geneparent pairings will give the Warrior Caste what it wants in the next generation balanced against other constraints and demands. This is unlikely to be as simple as just repeating or expanding the most successful geneparent pairings from the last generation. Older and/or popular female germline material may be limited, creating scarcity for some of the more desirable pairings, which have to be supplemented with less desirable pairings. There may be a lot of debate and judgement calls on how many genepairings to risk on certain new bloodnamed warriors, who may be performing great in the field but whose genetic material has not been paired before. There may be issues with genetic diversity that have to be balanced against having Natasha Kerensky (or pick your best warrior) in every genepairing. Not unlike systems analysis, there’s probably a lot of iteration and modeling (and maybe even simulation and red-team testing) to arrive at a final product.
And then that product probably has to be reviewed by the customer(s) in the Warrior Caste, which may be another iterative process if the Warrior Caste sends (maybe repeatedly) the Scientist Caste back to the drawing boards.
Even when well-planned and run, I could easily see this process taking years, just as we spend years designing, developing, and testing new weapons systems. Putting zygotes in iron wombs is not what the Scientist Caste spends the vast bulk of its time on. I think it’s the data-intensive, qualitative decision making, and iterative optimization processes that determine what mix of zygotes should be created in the first place that the Scientist Caste spends nearly all its time on.
The idea of cannibalizing 2nd line units for Front Line only happened because of the extreme 80% losses from Front Line forces in the Refusal War.
Even "Harvest" wars was something of a fluke idea Vlad had to take advantage of the lust so many Home clans had to get to the IS.
We don’t really know because there is so little information on the Clans pre-Revival. But I seriously doubt no Clan had brought secondline/garrison clusters into frontline galaxies prior to the Refusal War. And the Harvest Trials are just a fancy name for the Falcon and Wolf post-Refusal Trials of Possession, which the Clans have been doing for warriors and units for a couple centuries. Even in the limited material we have, there is evidence of contract bids and other measures pre-Revival
Again, I’m not the Clan canon cop. If my interpretation of the canon sources doesn’t work for you, then by all means, go with your own. But hopefully this explains where my headcanon on the topic is coming from.
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Way of the Clans indicated a Trial of Position taking place off in the distance, as Aidan and his sibko looked on in the dark.
Trials of Position take place for all kinds of reasons, ranks, and positions at various points in a warrior’s career. Natasha Kerensky had to undertake one when she returned to Clan Wolf, for example. Not every ToP is to determine whether a sibkin can join the Warrior Caste.
They may be freeborn, but the new group was a year or two behind Aidan.
I don’t think the canon has given us enough to really know how freeborn sibkos are organized relative to the five-year trueborn cycle. It probably varies from Clan to Clan (some don’t allow freeborns into the Warrior Caste at all) and with time (changing garrison and other demands). They are certainly treated worse than the trueborn sibkos, which would explain a freeborn sibko going up again a trueborn sibko a couple years their senior.
And someone could always ask the authors or developers...
Done and done.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=70107.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=70107.0)
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The Harvest trials might have been a "Trial of Possession" but the intent & scale of them was unlike anything the clans have done before from what I've read.
You trial for a single warrior or access to his Genes.
That those are defended vigorously for the clan.
The Harvest trials was units that actively choose to abandon their clan by intentionally loosing mock battles for a chance at glory in the IS.
Given how much value the clan's place on Victory & Clan Loyalty, I found the Harvest Trials to be one of the most unbelievable parts of clan canon. Total FIAT basically.
Its up there w/ House Liao and Xin Shen and the ability to go from weakest IS nation military to strongest in 50 years. Never bought that one either.
But I'm probably getting a bit off topic here.
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Given how much value the clan's place on Victory & Clan Loyalty, I found the Harvest Trials to be one of the most unbelievable parts of clan canon. Total FIAT basically.
At the risk of continuing off-topic...
I think the counterarguments are that: 1) Clan society in general is conditioned to rapidly switch allegiances with its constant Trials of Possession, formalized bondsman rituals, etc.; 2) many Homeworld Clan warriors probably (correctly) thought the Harvest Trials were their only/last chance to see the promised land of the Inner Sphere; and 3) many Homeworld Clan warriors probably thought there were more opportunities with the Falcons and Wolves to burnish their codexes, earn a bloodname, and thus reproduce and earn some measure of immortality than with their parent Clans.
That said, while I can see a flood of individual “volunteers”, I also find it hard to believe that there would be multiple breakdowns in Clan chains of command resulting in many entire units going over to the Falcons and Wolves.
An aside, there is evidence that membership in some Migration Era tribes like the Visigoths was based in whether you joined and fought for that leader or group, not on your ethnic or other origins. Maybe another parallel with the Clans.
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I also find it hard to believe that there would be multiple breakdowns in Clan chains of command resulting in many entire units going over to the Falcons and Wolves.
The Clans are not strangers to dishonesty or disobedience. Clan units on Tukayyid ignored orders that were contrary to what they wanted to do, which was fight. If you were a Homeworld Clan member and the only way to participate in the most glorious event in Clan history was to join one of the invading Clans, you'd look at ways to bend the rules, rather than die in obscurity. Results that bring honor often erases the dishonorable methods used to achieve them.
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Colt and Hellraiser for the win:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=70107.msg1628875#msg1628875 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=70107.msg1628875#msg1628875)
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Harvest Trails are not about mock trials and units abandoning their parent clans. There about showing why they should be worthy of their new clan over their older one. Yes it might have been because they saw other, more stronger, clan winning more. But it could also be them seeing the end of their older dying one, either be absorbed as a unit or be casted aside. Like what the Stone Lions did, which bolstered their touman.
TT
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After Taney's push to get a Invasion corridor was blocked, it was a way to get more/greater combat experience and prove the genes.
Remember when Natasha came back along with her archivist, who presented the Wolf Clan Council the deeds of the Dragoons over the decades. It was a huge vote but Cyrilla explained that most of the protest was pro forma part of the Warden/Crusader fight but ALL the Bloodhouses wanted the results since they would try to see if any of their members distinguished themselves.
The Home Clans might not have liked their members offering challenges, but Bloodhouse politics? Yeah . . . send ristars and bloodnamed to the Inner Sphere to prove themselves. Some of it was also political- the Hellions tried to pay back Vlad with humiliation but it backfired as he took the equipment as isorla but sent the warriors back. One of the other interesting points is simply, which Clans did not give up troops? AFAIK, it was just the Adders and Spirits- they had the York fighting going on- even the monkeys and Vipers (kicked out) had units bid, though the Vipers were only challenging the Crusader Wolves afaik.
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This is detailed in the ten part story 'Trial Under Fire' by Loren L. Coleman. It is canon. Yes, it has a character, Brendon Corbett. He is a Jag Galaxy Commander, who attempts to establish control of the Jags on Tranquil. It follows the Inner Sphere forces tasked with eliminating him. Takes place after Huntress is 'pacified' and before Victor arrives on Strana Mechty.
How much forces did Corbett have? A cluster?
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How much forces did Corbett have? A cluster?
An extremely light Galaxy. He had the Jaguar Spirit Keshik, remains of 9th Jaguar Cavaliers, and Tranquil's existing garrison, likely a second-line cluster. Probably amounted to two clusters. There may have been some stragglers from other Jaguar holdings, but most of those were gathered up by Osis to go to Huntress.
For reference see "Trial Under Fire" by Loren L. Coleman and the old scenario pack "The Dragon Roars".
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Just keep in mind, it was all understrength- even the garrison force (think of the state of Huntress)- and probably had some sibkos on planet as well. They were also using some of the isorla from the IS, lol.
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Just keep in mind, it was all understrength- even the garrison force (think of the state of Huntress)- and probably had some sibkos on planet as well. They were also using some of the isorla from the IS, lol.
Right... so Corbett had a force roughly equal to what hang Mehta had but of lesser quality? But surely enough to defeat serpent?
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She had more- two patched up galaxies and then Osis fed her some reinforcements.
Remains of a keshik, remains of a frontline cluster, understrength & under-supplied garrison cluster, and maybe some sibkos that are in the last 2-3 years who are thrown into the fight for the Clan to survive.
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And Corbett probably lacked the lift capacity to move those forces.
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Yeah, technically he could have showed up in a single Star Lord with 2-3 dropships depending on how the Keshik & cluster escaped.
IIRC part of the story/campaign was getting to a DS- it was the prize dangled out there for the protagonist to evac.
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And Corbett probably lacked the lift capacity to move those forces.
Wait but how do they get to tranquil then?
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As I just said, Corbett probably had a smaller JS and 2 or 3 DS to lift what fled there from the IS . . . he did NOT have the lift capacity for what he would have found on the world- understrength garrison cluster that relies mostly on old mechs, vehicles, and infantry along with any sibkos. The sibkos are very likely under equipped even if overstrength on personnel and like on Huntress would have their trainers act as cadre for a 'Sibko Provisional Cluster.'
Consider this- while a cluster can have anywhere from 30-60 mechs & mechwarriors, that is because they are expected to field all of them at the same time . . . but a training command would not typically need to field all the mechwarriors at the same time so they would probably have a third to a quarter of the mechs vs the number of mechwarriors. Sibko of 200, by the time they are into advanced training (12-14?) they are probably down to 80-ish mechwarrior candidates who never take the field together at first but as part of initial training are running obstacle & gunnery courses and cycle through mechs. So 20 mechs would let the trainers run all 80-ish warriors through in 4-5 cycles, say 2 hours each cycle for the cadet to strap in, run the course and return. By the time the sibko is down to the last stages, each mechwarrior would probably have a single mech assigned to them with the expectation you would have less than 20 cadets in that final year . . . with 5 (2.5%) -10 (5%) passing their Trial of Position. Further, the only mech we have seen with final age cadets were Kit Foxes IIRC . . . so the mechs a training center will get are likely old/balky/patched up lights with a few mediums, heavies and maybe assaults for 'familiarization' training. Selection for a Jag training center might be . . . 10 Kit Foxes, 5 Mist Lynx, Nova, Stormcrow, 2 Hellbringer, and old Warhawk or Kingfisher. Older, robust, easy to repair designs that the cadets could abuse as they learn.
Huntress had something like 20+ 'sibko training centers' which were different than general training centers like the one on Abyssal that Serpent found mostly empty- it was a desert environment training center for sibkos & line units to cycle through to understand the environment. We have the FMs that barely describe large & small sibko training centers but its never actually been laid out like . . . 'a center will be all 1 age group' or 'will space age groups 2 years apart from ages 12-18/20.' We do know the Clans do not really go in for simulators so they will likely have more actual mechs than a comparable IS facility.
So, consider Tranquil was half Jag and seems to be a important holding for them . . . even 4-6 training centers with a single large mechwarrior sibko at the different ages (12, 14, 16, 18 FREX) could net somewhere around 200 MW cadets and around a binary of old warriors as trainers. Which is just mechwarriors, you also have to factor in Elementals and Aero Pilots along with the washouts who ended up in armor, VTOLs and infantry but they are all also equipment poor like the mechwarriors.
Which is IF Corbett allowed trainees to fight . . . and IF the Jaguars operated any sibko training centers off Huntress. But it still means he has more personnel and more equipment (even if its in poor condition and light) than he probably arrived on transportation with . . . because remember, while Osis issued a recall order not every JS left with Mehta- you had her fleet, Corbett, and folks who wandered off to Randis at least as part of the fracturing.
With all that said . . . fighting some sibkos on Tranquil makes some sense of the MW3 campaign and the later write up for it.
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As I just said, Corbett probably had a smaller JS and 2 or 3 DS to lift what fled there from the IS . . . he did NOT have the lift capacity for what he would have found on the world- understrength garrison cluster that relies mostly on old mechs, vehicles, and infantry along with any sibkos. The sibkos are very likely under equipped even if overstrength on personnel and like on Huntress would have their trainers act as cadre for a 'Sibko Provisional Cluster.'
Consider this- while a cluster can have anywhere from 30-60 mechs & mechwarriors, that is because they are expected to field all of them at the same time . . . but a training command would not typically need to field all the mechwarriors at the same time so they would probably have a third to a quarter of the mechs vs the number of mechwarriors. Sibko of 200, by the time they are into advanced training (12-14?) they are probably down to 80-ish mechwarrior candidates who never take the field together at first but as part of initial training are running obstacle & gunnery courses and cycle through mechs. So 20 mechs would let the trainers run all 80-ish warriors through in 4-5 cycles, say 2 hours each cycle for the cadet to strap in, run the course and return. By the time the sibko is down to the last stages, each mechwarrior would probably have a single mech assigned to them with the expectation you would have less than 20 cadets in that final year . . . with 5 (2.5%) -10 (5%) passing their Trial of Position. Further, the only mech we have seen with final age cadets were Kit Foxes IIRC . . . so the mechs a training center will get are likely old/balky/patched up lights with a few mediums, heavies and maybe assaults for 'familiarization' training. Selection for a Jag training center might be . . . 10 Kit Foxes, 5 Mist Lynx, Nova, Stormcrow, 2 Hellbringer, and old Warhawk or Kingfisher. Older, robust, easy to repair designs that the cadets could abuse as they learn.
Huntress had something like 20+ 'sibko training centers' which were different than general training centers like the one on Abyssal that Serpent found mostly empty- it was a desert environment training center for sibkos & line units to cycle through to understand the environment. We have the FMs that barely describe large & small sibko training centers but its never actually been laid out like . . . 'a center will be all 1 age group' or 'will space age groups 2 years apart from ages 12-18/20.' We do know the Clans do not really go in for simulators so they will likely have more actual mechs than a comparable IS facility.
So, consider Tranquil was half Jag and seems to be a important holding for them . . . even 4-6 training centers with a single large mechwarrior sibko at the different ages (12, 14, 16, 18 FREX) could net somewhere around 200 MW cadets and around a binary of old warriors as trainers. Which is just mechwarriors, you also have to factor in Elementals and Aero Pilots along with the washouts who ended up in armor, VTOLs and infantry but they are all also equipment poor like the mechwarriors.
Which is IF Corbett allowed trainees to fight . . . and IF the Jaguars operated any sibko training centers off Huntress. But it still means he has more personnel and more equipment (even if its in poor condition and light) than he probably arrived on transportation with . . . because remember, while Osis issued a recall order not every JS left with Mehta- you had her fleet, Corbett, and folks who wandered off to Randis at least as part of the fracturing.
With all that said . . . fighting some sibkos on Tranquil makes some sense of the MW3 campaign and the later write up for it.
Thank you that was very helpful! I did not realize he found that much in tranquil
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Not saying he had any of the sibkos or even what the garrison might have been. As far as I know its never been laid out. What I offer is conjecture based on what we know about the forces on Huntress and the little bits of sibko information in FMs & MWGttC.
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I am the only one that wondered about that passage? We know that the Jaguars were warriors, not politicians, tacticians or spies. A unit like this do not match with the Jaguars - especially an Osis. As this is also the only reference i do not take this for any guideline in my campaigns.
I am so curious about this unit! I cannot imagine how funny a “ undercover “ jag unit would have been...
But seriously this whole cluster must have been taken out by the society right?
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Two paint scheme questions:
The jaguars heart: my fav band of jag retirees what paint scheme do we think they would have had?
And what about the jaguars swords?
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I am so curious about this unit! I cannot imagine how funny a “ undercover “ jag unit would have been...
But seriously this whole cluster must have been taken out by the society right?
At the point when this unit went MIA would they likely have been taken out by a “ jump drive malfunction “ rather than battle?
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Hawker probably was taking his whole re-built Alpha Galaxy as it was his personal command and frontline galaxies are designed to move. Real question is how well was it equipped? Since the saKhan was in charge of re-building and delegated a lot of the material replacement duties to Labov . . . its questionable if it was more combat capable than Sennet's Beta Galaxy, though I would expect more Crusaders in the ranks than any other Shark formation. Osis shared some information about what had happened, but indications were he was still hiding some of the information since he still was acting as Jaguar Khan (part of Vlad's charges) so Hawker had a clue but not the full picture. Besides, I think Serpent dealt with the HPG pretty quick. Hawker could move Alpha, filled with Crusaders in command positions and thus least likely to challenge, while moving any other galaxy or even cluster opened his actions up to Clan Council consideration or even challenge by another bloodnamed officer. Getting involved against the IS on Huntress would have presented the Wardens & Clan Council of the Sharks a fait accompli that would likely have compelled them to get involved until Hawker was killed.
After Alpha, Beta and the Spina galaxies would have been the 'easiest' to move into place . . . and would have finished everything the IS had to throw with ground forces & warships.
The Heart was made up of what Osis could strip- and it was that, he was breaking the Clan's operating ability by taking warriors from slots- to build any sort of formation with whatever weapons he could get his hands on. The name was for morale and to describe their efforts.
Nothing AFAIK from the legacy challenge would sway Vlad into helping the Jaguars on Huntress. Its not going to kick off a call of 'Crusaders UNITE!' among the Clans, Vlad's speech in the Grand Council pretty well summed it up. It would not be the end of the Clans, merely the end of a Clan proving its failure while the others learned, absorbed and moved on.
Why did hawker not vote to support the jags? Why the change of heart afterwards?
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Why did hawker not vote to support the jags? Why the change of heart afterwards?
Finally rebought prince of havoc again after 20 yrs. this novel deals with the great refusal and I was surprised that khan Schmidt of the blood spirits got page time but hawker did not...
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One thing to remember is that the Jags were pretty much loathed by the other Clans and in truth they were more than happy to see them gone.
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One thing to remember is that the Jags were pretty much loathed by the other Clans and in truth they were more than happy to see them gone.
You also have to remember that competition and rivalry among the Clans was the norm, while cooperation was a rarity. The invasion of the IS was more a race between independent Clan factions, not a concerted effort.
Even when a Clan was singled out for destruction, there was never unified action, just individual Clans attacking the same target. Neither Luthien nor Tukayyid were coordinated campaigns, the participating Clans competed with each other against a common enemy but you never saw them actually supporting each other because that is unthinkable in Clan culture -It just isn't done.
Even with a central authority issuing suggestions, the Clans were resistant and pretty much told Ulric to mind his own business...then turned around and blamed him for their failure, because he let them do what they wanted, instead of ordering them around and micromanaging their forces. CSJ had a lot of problems that they refused to recognize, which only amplified those problems, and nobody was going to help them because all of them remembered how CSJ bullied the other Clans for years, and vindictiveness is another product of Clan culture, slights are never forgiven.
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I have recently become very interested in the jaguars heart adhoc unit of almost retired but elite/vet warriors who answered khan osis call to defend huntress. IF the jags had survived would the survivors of that unit who had not earned bloodnames been sponsored again?
I mean the bloodnamed ranks of the jags would have been decimated and these gals and guys would have done an amazing service...
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I say yes they would be sponsored for a Bloodname. There would be so many vacated Bloodnames that they would have to be nominated.
Of course, this all depends on them being successful, which is a tall order.
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I say yes they would be sponsored for a Bloodname. There would be so many vacated Bloodnames that they would have to be nominated.
Of course, this all depends on them being successful, which is a tall order.
That also could have been a teaser of sorts to get older warriors to sign up
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The two galaxies that garrisoned huntress that serpent first fought were noted to be fielding captured IS designs. Would these have been given the IIC treatment? I would think so since that garrison was so hard up for gear...
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No. They were fielding captured IS mechs that had been fixed with captured IS weapons and equipment. The point was that those galaxies were so hard up that they didn't have the gear to upgrade any of their mechs to Clan weaponry.
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No. They were fielding captured IS mechs that had been fixed with captured IS weapons and equipment. The point was that those galaxies were so hard up that they didn't have the gear to upgrade any of their mechs to Clan weaponry.
!? Jeez...
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Remember, Huntress's garrison force was so badly off for equipment that the Galaxy Commander in charge had resorted to smuggling captured IS machines onto the planet in order to insure he had mechs. In the wake of the Invasion and their losses on Tukayyid, the Smoke Jaguars were left catastrophically short on materials, and they'd poached from most of their front-line galaxies to form a brand new galaxy, Tau Galaxy, that was wiped out before it could be deployed. Their anemic production couldn't keep up with demands on the front lines in the Invasion Corridor, so any stockpiles of Clantech that might have been on Huntress before were shipped out.
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Remember, Huntress's garrison force was so badly off for equipment that the Galaxy Commander in charge had resorted to smuggling captured IS machines onto the planet in order to insure he had mechs. In the wake of the Invasion and their losses on Tukayyid, the Smoke Jaguars were left catastrophically short on materials, and they'd poached from most of their front-line galaxies to form a brand new galaxy, Tau Galaxy, that was wiped out before it could be deployed. Their anemic production couldn't keep up with demands on the front lines in the Invasion Corridor, so any stockpiles of Clantech that might have been on Huntress before were shipped out.
I read that CSJ command was so befuddled that Huntress still had warehouses of front-line omnis earmarked for units that no longer existed, and nobody was allowed to touch them, so they wound up in IS hands after the fighting.
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I read that CSJ command was so befuddled that Huntress still had warehouses of front-line omnis earmarked for units that no longer existed, and nobody was allowed to touch them, so they wound up in IS hands after the fighting.
I recall reading this too but don't recall where.
And I also recall that Tau was a newly-built Galaxy, fresh Sibkos and fresh OmniMechs from the Homeworlds rather than "poached" from existing units. Not sure where the idea their ability to actually produce machines was "anemic" comes from. It was keeping them intact once they were in the field that was the problem.
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The personal and equipment to build Tau Galaxy was diverted from othe front-line galaxies, leaving them understrength. And the Jaguars have always been described as having a very poor and neglected industrial base, depending on raising other Clans to make up their shortfalls.
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Tau was raised as a brand new formation on Huntress, as the conversation between Devon and Lincoln Osis on Avon in the beginning of Impetus of War tells it. When Devon Osis arrives on Wildcat a couple chapters later, it's specifically said all the Galaxy's OmniMechs "were all new, some of them test models never seen by the other Clans." Only Alpha Galaxy, itself still rebuilding and not yet reactivated in this timeframe, lost out by having assets diverted to Tau. This is not the same thing as having been built by "poaching" from the other front-line Galaxies.
You can make the claim parts of their industrial base may have been neglected, but poor is not a word I'd use. All the Jaguar staples are heavily represented in what products list unit breakdowns, like the Dragon Roars and Twilight scenario packs, and in the novels. It was certainly robust enough to facilitate the continued rebuilding in the post-Tukayyid years however slowly, when raids were causing heavy damage to one Cluster just as another had been rebuilt. If this wasn't organic production, then the Jaguars had potent forces in the Homeworlds not on Huntress to facilitate Trialing for the material of other Clans... except we know this idea is generally frowned upon per Shadows of War and the bit about the creation of the Jaguar's Heart. I would maintain they did have such units, but their presence is inferred vs. observed from odd snippets in other products.
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One thing to remember about the Jags was it wasn't so much "Production Capacity" that they lacked as it was "Innovation, Resources, & Diplomacy".
Think about every mech the Jags currently produce.
To the best of my knowledge, All but the WarHawk & Ebon Jaguar were something they stole from the original designers (Wolves/Hellions/Bears), & then put into final production.
The closest thing they had to allies was the Falcons, and that was only in forwarding the Crusader agenda.
They constantly picked fights & took stuff from other clans.
Eventually that backfires when all those other clans start hitting back at the same time or when your already weak from facing IS forces.
When everyone you've raided starts raiding back then those resources you've been stealing to compliment your own supplies dries up & you start loosing your own resources to counter raids.
IIRC, The Sharks started fighting back on Vinton & the Wolves took their portion of Tranquil... to mention a couple specific examples.
I can only imagine there are other ones & similar actions.
Tukayyid was a disaster for every clan in terms of material & personnel losses.
When they needed to be using every resource to rebuild they started loosing access to those resources.
And the OZ was never a fun place for them with DC rebellions on most worlds & Wolcott acting as a big fat base for raiders to launch from.
The Jags always had a strong military, but they didn't seem to have was strong merchant & scientist castes working behind the scenes.
They used the military to supplement not wanting to invest in the lower castes the way other clans did. (Sharks/Coyotes).
When it got weak from over use, by extension those neglected castes couldn't be counted on to take some of the burden & the leadership lacked the diplomacy to have allies & trade partners.
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The Jags had an entire world all to themselves. One guarded by no less than 2 galaxies.
That potentially means as much and likely more industrial production than they knew what to do with.
I seem to recall that Hang Mehta equipped her troops from caches on Huntress itself.
As to why the garrisoning troops did not have access to them.... well garrison troops.
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I recall reading this too but don't recall where.
Omnis were saved for front line units, while the defenders on Huntress were relegated to salvaged IS equipment:
"Sword and Fire"
"What the ..." Barclay began, confused over the computer's apparent mistake. Then Winston's reminder came back to her. According to the intelligence gathered by the Clan spy, the Jags had been bringing captured Inner Sphere 'Mechs back to Huntress for use by the second-line and solahma warriors populating the two Galaxies defending the planet.
Though the Vindicator had to be close to shutdown because of the excess heat caused by damage to its engine, the Clan pilot extended the big PPC replacing the spindly 'Mech's right forearm.
"Prince of Havoc"
Anastasius Focht, Precentor Martial of ComStar, cleared his throat. "I have some of my people preparing a comprehensive inventory of supplies here and comparing it with the needs of our units for final refitting of Clan technology. I would expect-we will require less than five percent of what is stored here to become fully operational. I'd like to refit the Fourth Drakøns with Clan machines, bringing them up to spec with the rest of the units that came here with us. Beyond that, I don't believe we will have a high demand for the materials here."
Less than five percent of that salvage was enough to restore all the units that arrived on Huntress with Clan tech...TF Serpent was reduced to two regiments after all the fighting.
Victor frowned as he thought for a moment. "Okay, what I'd like to do with the salvage is this: every unit gets its pick of what they took down. They can bring themselves up to full strength plus ten percent.
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One thing to remember about the Jags was it wasn't so much "Production Capacity" that they lacked as it was "Innovation, Resources, & Diplomacy".
Think about every mech the Jags currently produce.
To the best of my knowledge, All but the WarHawk & Ebon Jaguar were something they stole from the original designers (Wolves/Hellions/Bears), & then put into final production.
Jaguar diplomacy? Good one :D. Resources are as ever dictated by the needs of the plot. But innovation? Really? The Scientists who created a new class of combat unit in the ProtoMech without the overt support or knowledge of the Clan Council lacked innovation? Or the miniaturized weapons and equipment utilized by said ProtoMechs? Or both flavors of variant machine guns? Or the Watchdog CEWS, itself said to be one of a number or projects initiated by the Jaguars? The Nova Cats sought out Jaguar Scientists to help design the BattleMech that became the Ocelot. Of the 'Mechs they did design themselves, not that who designed a 'Mech is particularly germane to the ability to produce them, the Mist Lynx, Ebon Jaguar, and Warhawk were all popular machines both within the Jaguars and without. The Warhawk in particular was called "highly-prized" by the other Clans, with "great pains" being taken to keep them well-maintained. The ability to innovate does not appear to have been lacking.
Can't lay it at the feet of whatever behind-the-throne shenanigans the Society was up, as they apparently didn't get too far into the Jaguars and were as surprised as anybody by the ProtoMechs' debut.
Can't argue much with your analysis of inter-Clan relations and resource access, but it does lead back to my point about their ability to provide for themselves. Their ability to slowly claw back from the losses at Luthien and Tukayyid speaks to either their ability to make their own stuff or continued ability to take it from others, or perhaps a bit of both. This ability did not go away in the years after Tukayyid, as the creation of a new Galaxy in Tau, the expansion of Epsilon with the 6th Striker, and the couple reformed Clusters of Alpha Galaxy show in spite of the pressures the Jaguars were known to be under. Was it going to be sustainable in the long run? Who knows; events solidly took the burden to try from the Jaguars.
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Can't lay it at the feet of whatever behind-the-throne shenanigans the Society was up, as they apparently didn't get too far into the Jaguars and were as surprised as anybody by the ProtoMechs' debut.
Source?
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But innovation? Really? The Scientists who created a new class of combat unit in the ProtoMech without the overt support or knowledge of the Clan Council lacked innovation? Or the miniaturized weapons and equipment utilized by said ProtoMechs? Or both flavors of variant machine guns? Or the Watchdog CEWS, itself said to be one of a number or projects initiated by the Jaguars? The Nova Cats sought out Jaguar Scientists to help design the BattleMech that became the Ocelot. Of the 'Mechs they did design themselves, not that who designed a 'Mech is particularly germane to the ability to produce them, the Mist Lynx, Ebon Jaguar, and Warhawk were all popular machines both within the Jaguars and without. The Warhawk in particular was called "highly-prized" by the other Clans, with "great pains" being taken to keep them well-maintained. The ability to innovate does not appear to have been lacking.
Can't lay it at the feet of whatever behind-the-throne shenanigans the Society was up, as they apparently didn't get too far into the Jaguars and were as surprised as anybody by the ProtoMechs' debut.
Broadly true. You also left out the Toorima, and the light AC project that the Spirits morphed into PACs, or (depending on how you take it) the Laser Anti-Air Missile or the ARAD missile.
The Jags appear to have paid a very large emphasis on science and engineering. They may have been as focussed as the Coyotes, but their efforts appear to have been much more widely spread, making inroads into areas other Clans considered unworthy and they poured a huge amouunt of resources into their various programs. So...whereas the Coyotes poured resources into a few projects, and kept themselves at the cutting edge, the Jags would have focussed on more areas.
The WoR book does state that the Society didn't gain much influence within the Jags, and that might be because, despite their supposedly "conservative" nature, Jaguar scientists, engineers and technicians were apparently well resourced, respected and given freedom to carry out their research. No forbidden areas or taboos to worry about whereas in other Clans, research could be deemed unClanlike or treasonous if the leadership didn't like it. Its one of several areas where the Jags deviated from practises in other Clans...they don't seem to share the aversion to cyber upgrades for example.
We never got an in depth look at Jaguar society, but what we got appears to be consistent that the Jaguars placed a huge degree of importance on science and engineering. From having "the best techs in the Galaxy" to pouring huge resources into their R&D systems to the new control systems, heat sinks, weapons and armour for Protos...
Of course, IRL, its because Jaguars were given Protos as a tester so FASA weren't committed to them and the respect for science and engineering effectively retconned into their culture but it adds flavour and didn't really change anything about them. So its a good change IMO.
But again, it isn't one that is explicitly stated.
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Um, the Society was absolutely embedded in the Jaguars- they had Aiden's genetic material on hand as found by Horse IIRC. It was one of the big early clues about a Clan-wide conspiracy being in place.
The Jaguars lacked the ability to replace losses in the OZ for several reasons.
First, lack luster production . . . yes, they have been backfilled with a lot of production locations (to explain how other factions ended up with them in Wars of Possession) but we get no idea about how large the locations are (# of lines) or production rates. WE do get a historical friction between laborers and the warrior caste . . . and it can be surmised the production did not perform at the same level as the other invading Clans.
Second, constant raids . . . besides the mentioned Drac raids the Jags also had to contend with raids from their fellow Clans. The Cats in the OZ trialing for resources, the Sharks on the Exodus Road interdicting supply convoys, and Homies back in Clan space. Consider for 2+ years other Clans that wanted Dire Wolves, Warhawks or other Jag exclusives were blocked by the ilKhan's dictate protecting the Invaders . . . but also consider who created the dictate, and why they might have made that order. We know from the Shark/Labov write up that part of the way the Sharks recovered was capturing supplies along the Exodus Road but the other Clans in their write ups in FMCC/WC are not noted as being inconvenienced. In fact the Bears were trading territory for Shark support relocating. This leaves the two factions not covered in the pair of FMs as bearing the brunt of the Shark efforts- Jags & Cats . . . which are going to have trade routes near each other.
You say it speaks to their ability? It speaks to their abilities poorly. The Bears recovered while transferring their Clan to the IS. Besides rebuilding their clusters they were also relocating everything to the OZ and upgrading their factories. They traded Home world territory and IS resources for Shark assistance & equipment. The Sharks?
They lost a OZ planet in Bear space but gained trading opportunities in others, started to bring out updated old Clan designs (Warhammer IIC & Marauder IIC to the new PP series) along with totally new garrison designs to be sold to the Invaders. The Falcons recovered and built up a string of very large supply caches in their forward OZ holdings while also converting IS factories to produce Clan mechs. The Falcons also had scrapyards of IS machines they were harvesting for parts. The Wolves started converting IS factories (Tamar, Satalice, etc) to produce Clan material and Trial'd for or traded (Clint IIC fluff) for enough Clan equipment to build a new 5 cluster galaxy (Tau) in '55 positioned in the OZ without weakening the recovery of other clusters/galaxies.
Compare that to the Jags who broke their logistics pipelines to build a 3 cluster galaxy in '57 which brings up the next point . .
Third, logistical mismanagement . . . Everything built in the Home Worlds, packed on a ship and sent 6 months away. Arrogance causing the waste of captured machines- if the Jags had used the C series of IS machines, or even repaired captured old Star League designs they could have supplemented their garrison clusters. Sure some were smuggled or brought to Huntress under false pretenses- but that would be a drop in the bucket to what was left rusting in the Inner Sphere . . . makes you wonder if the Dracs recovered piles of wrecks they could refurbish. What were the Jaguars doing with all the resources the OZ could have produced? Other Clans put the OZs to use feeding their war machines but we get nothing in Bird Dog/Bulldog about capturing IS support facilities to deny them to the Jags.
Part of that mismanagement would be disrupting the supply pipelines for every galaxy in the way of fresh warriors and newly produced equipment to build a vanity project. The Jag's Tau Galaxy just builds on previous follies . . . IIRC all the line warriors were fresh from the sibkos and so were most of the officers- Star Commanders and Star Captains who got those extra kills on their initial Trial of Positions. So Osis put together a galaxy of his cronies (GalCom & maybe Star Col) along with FNGs- who never saw combat outside of training let alone against the IS. And for this, every other Cluster in the OZ got no replacement equipment for weeks if not months. No replacement warriors for any OZ cluster showed up for that same time while they were still weeding out Invasion veterans to be sent back to Clan space or become Exodus Road garrisons. Then the Jaguar's shipping ability was disrupted because the lift capacity for moving the new Galaxy from the Home Worlds to the IS had to be re-directed. To get a idea of what this is like, look at what happens with the US MAC when they are retasked to transport disaster relief supplies. MAC's shipping plans are built out years in advance to ensure not just the supplies get where they are needed but the planes are routed properly so no flight is not carrying as much as possible between locations. Osis vanity through years of planning and operations -IF the Jag's merchants were allowed to regularize shipping schedules & manifests to the OZ- out the window so he could surprise the IS with a new galaxy for Grand Council boasting points.
Osis may have been a tactical genius . . . but he has long been proven a strategic simpleton.
Finally, they had no fat . . . Easiest way to point to the failure of Jaguar raiding and production is that their most important world was defended by mechs only on paper. They lacked old Star League designs, C series (Atlas, MAD, TBolt, RFL, Shad, etc) from salvage, or even Clan standard mech designs to field in the Home Worlds. Immediately after Tukayyid, the other Invaders might have had to dust off their caches of old designs for replacements as the saKhans raided secondline and garrison clusters for the better machines. The Jaguars did not have the replacements to assign to their Home World garrisons, instead they just took the Clan mechs to reassign into the OZs. You bring up mechs assigned to the Jaguars Heart . . . but by that point Osis had months of production, even with Jaguars' lower production output, to supply a new cluster. One way, it could be read in all that time the Jaguars production was only enough to build a cluster in the space of 6 months (first strikes of Bird Dog).
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Broadly true. You also left out the Toorima...
First I'd ever heard of them!
Source?
Wars of Reaving page 153, which I'll repeat for Colt's benefit as well...
The ProtoMech project is the most obvious example.
After Clan Smoke Jaguar debuted the system during its
failed defense of Huntress, the Society—unaware of the
project due to extremely low-level involvement with the
Clan—quickly ascertained its tactical benefits.
And now let's see about the rest...
The Jaguars lacked the ability to replace losses in the OZ for several reasons.
First, lack luster production . . . yes, they have been backfilled with a lot of production locations (to explain how other factions ended up with them in Wars of Possession) but we get no idea about how large the locations are (# of lines) or production rates. WE do get a historical friction between laborers and the warrior caste . . . and it can be surmised the production did not perform at the same level as the other invading Clans.
What does backfilled mean? You mean expanded upon in later works? Does this disqualify the information somehow?
This leaves the two factions not covered in the pair of FMs as bearing the brunt of the Shark efforts- Jags & Cats . . . which are going to have trade routes near each other.
What part of the Shark write-up are you referencing? In FMWC, I'm noting just a passing reference to "harrassing the shipping of other Clans" under the "Dangerous Waters" section. But because the other Clans weren't noted to be inconvenienced, that must mean the other Clans had to have been? Where is it stated the Cats and/or Jaguars were singled out? Both those Clans of whom were known to have larger than average fleets, with the Cats having one of the biggest, that weren't otherwise known to be doing much.
You say it speaks to their ability? It speaks to their abilities poorly.
Mmm, I don't think you've really been reading what I've been saying. For a couple posts now, I've acknowledged that the Jaguars had mighty struggles rebuilding after Tukayyid, but that they were rebuilding as the formation of a completely brand new Galaxy, expansion of two existing Galaxies, and reestablishing an understrength Alpha as well as keeping the other Clusters active very plainly shows. People like to point out these struggles, but take great umbrage apparently when you consider what they had to have going on in the Homeworlds to make that possible to either produce this material for themselves, OR, as is the classic image, take it from other Clans. That ability is wholly dependent on having capable units that can defeat the capable units of other Clans, and defend your own stuff. There are a few places that suggest that the Jaguars had these units up to their Annihilation, but it's also said outright that the Jaguar's Heart was everything they had left.
How efficiently this was or was not done, or how it could have been optimized towards a greater showing is not the intent of my position. These were the Jaguars after all.
The Falcons recovered and built up a string of very large supply caches in their forward OZ holdings while also converting IS factories to produce Clan mechs. The Falcons also had scrapyards of IS machines they were harvesting for parts. The Wolves started converting IS factories (Tamar, Satalice, etc) to produce Clan material and Trial'd for or traded (Clint IIC fluff) for enough Clan equipment to build a new 5 cluster galaxy (Tau) in '55 positioned in the OZ without weakening the recovery of other clusters/galaxies.
The Bears were a special case considering their moving, the Falcons didn't see any benefit from Olivetti until 3063 when the Spirit walked off the lines, and I'm not familiar enough with the Wolves and their industry to know when they started updating Tamar's industry. A more accurate Wolf comparison would be how they recovered from the heavy losses in Refusal War. What I'm reading in FMCC doesn't exactly put their anticipated recovery on page 139 a world above what the Jaguars were managing, by hook or by crook.
Compare that to the Jags who broke their logistics pipelines to build a 3 cluster galaxy in '57 which brings up the next point . .
It didn't break anything. I spoke of this in an above post.
Everything built in the Home Worlds, packed on a ship and sent 6 months away. Arrogance causing the waste of captured machines- if the Jags had used the C series of IS machines, or even repaired captured old Star League designs they could have supplemented their garrison clusters. Sure some were smuggled or brought to Huntress under false pretenses- but that would be a drop in the bucket to what was left rusting in the Inner Sphere . . . makes you wonder if the Dracs recovered piles of wrecks they could refurbish. What were the Jaguars doing with all the resources the OZ could have produced? Other Clans put the OZs to use feeding their war machines but we get nothing in Bird Dog/Bulldog about capturing IS support facilities to deny them to the Jags.
So, I would note that there is no shortage of SLDF designs that appear under the Jaguar list on the MUL, nor are they unknown from things like the HTP Luzerne RATs. From what I can find, the MUL does not actually list the (C) series BattleMechs as being very widespread at all. The Jaguars were known to utilize their OZ worlds particularly towards the production of munitions, like in the case of the mismanagement of some of Nykvarn's laborers transferred away from their fields to work in munitions factories, leaving them unable to provide the necessary grains that fortify the populace's immune systems against a local yearly plague. Much of the OZ's woe came from the SJs repurposing non-essential population to munition production without compensation. Or the production of the Sai S-4C on Schuyler during the occupation. Which reminds me, I wonder if the Jaguars made much use of the Achilles yard over Schuyler...
And for this, every other Cluster in the OZ got no replacement equipment for weeks if not months. No replacement warriors for any OZ cluster...
So, the benefits and values or lack thereof of Tau's personnel composition aside, is the bit I've quoted above directly referenced somewhere? I am now curious if I've missed something somewhere.
Osis may have been a tactical genius . . . but he has long been proven a strategic simpleton.
Simpleton is being a bit unkind, but grand strategy was not a strong point, certainly. Won't argue that.
Finally, they had no fat . . . Easiest way to point to the failure of Jaguar raiding and production is that their most important world was defended by mechs only on paper. They lacked old Star League designs, C series (Atlas, MAD, TBolt, RFL, Shad, etc) from salvage, or even Clan standard mech designs to field in the Home Worlds. Immediately after Tukayyid, the other Invaders might have had to dust off their caches of old designs for replacements as the saKhans raided secondline and garrison clusters for the better machines. The Jaguars did not have the replacements to assign to their Home World garrisons, instead they just took the Clan mechs to reassign into the OZs. You bring up mechs assigned to the Jaguars Heart . . . but by that point Osis had months of production, even with Jaguars' lower production output, to supply a new cluster. One way, it could be read in all that time the Jaguars production was only enough to build a cluster in the space of 6 months (first strikes of Bird Dog).
Again, I am not certain where much of this comes from. They did not lack any of those machines, though again, the MUL doesn't really show a great circulation of the (C) models I did look up. How do you think the Jaguars had a Touman after Tukayyid and Luthien? They would have HAD to have cherry-picked men and material from other commands to get Alpha and Beta ready for Tukayyid after Luthien, again when Alpha was crippled to the point of deactivation and Beta taking heavy losses on Tukayyid, while Delta made it worse with their heavy raids after Tukayyid. Despite this, the RAT for the second-line 4th PGC in Kappa Galaxy in the Luzerne historical has OmniMechs to be rolled (though it's reputation as the finest of all Jaguar PGCs might make it a special case), the 2nd Jaguar Regulars from Zeta Galaxy had Omnis when they raided McAlister during BULLDOG in The Dragon Roars, and even the forgotten Trinary on Wayside had a few Omnis in it in Forever Faithful.
And I recall having a recent discussion with you where it was pointed out the Jaguars came up with some OmniMechs and Clan BattleMechs to supplement the Huntress garrison as we saw in the Twilight of the Clans scenario book.
I am enjoying this immensely. Haven't had a need to look through and read up on all these sources in a long time. How I love BattleTech and it's volumes of lore.
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Um, the Society was absolutely embedded in the Jaguars- they had Aiden's genetic material on hand as found by Horse IIRC. It was one of the big early clues about a Clan-wide conspiracy being in place.
Horse found Aidens DNA. Everything else is conjecture. He simply made assumptions based on his belief the Jaguars should not have access to it.
As for the inter-Clan conspiracy it was evidence of....The Wars Of Reaving write up on the Society shows this..
"The ProtoMech project is the most obvious example.
After Clan Smoke Jaguar debuted the system during its
failed defense of Huntress, the Society—unaware of the
project due to extremely low-level involvement with the
Clan—quickly ascertained its tactical benefits"
The Society was involved with the Jaguars, but apparently to the point of near non-existence.
Ultimately, Horse objected to the Jaguars having the DNA, and assumed it was illegal. It may been...it may not have been. His belief in what Setania told him is not evidence. But even of it were, an extremely low level of infiltration is not the same as no infiltration.
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All this discussion still begs the question: Why save the Jags at all? Their flaws isolated them among the Clans and earned the fury of the Inner Sphere. Their assets, wasted on a failed Clan, went to better factions. If people just want more Clans, why not have the current Clans fracture into thirty-odd mini-Clans?
"I, Baldric, of Clan Rubber Duckie challenge Clan Inflatable Woman for control of the Wonky Willy Chocolate Factory!"
"Sod off!"
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All this discussion still begs the question: Why save the Jags at all? Their flaws isolated them among the Clans and earned the fury of the Inner Sphere. There assets, wasted on a failed Clan, went to better factions. If people just want more Clans, why not have the current Clans fracture into thirty-odd mini-Clans?
"I, Baldric, of Clan Rubber Duckie challenge Clan Inflatable Woman for control of the Wonky Willy Chocolate Factory!"
"Sod off!"
To reform the Clan according to ones own desires? Perhaps like with the Stone Lions.
But personally in universe I would rather trail for all the Mongoose assets.
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To reform the Clan according to ones own desires? Perhaps like with the Stone Lions.
But personally in universe I would rather trail for all the Mongoose assets.
Kind of late to save them from themselves...
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Kind of late to save them from themselves...
Indeed, but a 'hard reset' to CSJ would likely be necessary in order to fix some of the fundamental problems.
But successfully restarting/reforming a Clan would be close to the ultimate bragging rights in the Clans.
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I think it would have been interesting to see the Jaguars survive, become a shadow of their former selves, but still be a viable threat to others
maybe I'm overlooking something, but I can't really think of any factions where they are introduced as powerful and aggressive, but is reduced to a small size and yet remain a relatively strong group, without going extinct...maybe they can't regain their prominence in size and territory, but due to their aggressiveness they are able to maintain what they have and ward off threats
obviously that's not very realistic as attrition or overwhelming numbers should finish them off in that state (like has happened to other factions)
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To reform the Clan according to ones own desires? Perhaps like with the Stone Lions.
You mean, make a totally different Clan and just call them Smoke Jaguar...
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All this discussion still begs the question: Why save the Jags at all? Their flaws isolated them among the Clans and earned the fury of the Inner Sphere. Their assets, wasted on a failed Clan, went to better factions. If people just want more Clans, why not have the current Clans fracture into thirty-odd mini-Clans?
Oof. Your factional digs are usually more nuanced and witty and enjoyable. Also, any particular reason at this juncture you'd like to try and steer the conversation back to it's original subject from 18 pages and almost 5 years ago?
Indeed, but a 'hard reset' to CSJ would likely be necessary in order to fix some of the fundamental problems.
The Jaguars as a Clan, as we knew them, died in 3060. The remnants automatically became something else after this. The Fidelis have become something very different. I don't think anyone could realistically expect that a reformed Clan Smoke Jaguar would be a continuation of the mindsets, attitudes, and (wicked) ways of the Clan that came before. They'd be a continuation of the Fidelis, Trent's Smoke Jaguars, and his ideas on the Clan have always been... interesting. Although, the Jaguars as a Clan just don't seem as evil anymore with the actions of almost everyone else as we saw/are seeing in the Jihad, the Wars of Reaving, and the Dark Age...
If you mean additional coverage of the Jags in future products from before they were Annihilated, I don't think they need to change a thing. Nothing will save them when their hour comes in 3060, and what you may call 'fundamental problems' are pretty much the character of the Jaguars. We've seen a shift in tone as in the Era Reports and some of the TROs where the Jaguars are written as something other than Silver Age comicbook villains and it didn't break BattleTech, so I think they could easily get away with just keeping on doing what they've been doing.
I think it would have been interesting to see the Jaguars survive, become a shadow of their former selves, but still be a viable threat to others
The Blood Spirits leap to mind after the WoR, and they weren't able to make it in Clan space. I doubt the Jaguars would have fared any better. They'd have had to have sought their fortunes elsewhere to have a chance, like a forgotten Deep Periphery base far away from the other Clans and in total secrecy... ;)
maybe I'm overlooking something, but I can't really think of any factions where they are introduced as powerful and aggressive, but is reduced to a small size and yet remain a relatively strong group, without going extinct...maybe they can't regain their prominence in size and territory, but due to their aggressiveness they are able to maintain what they have and ward off threats
Depending on what you mean by "relatively strong," the Capellans might fit the bill from the 4th SW to the Capellan Crusades/DA, as might the Taurians in the Jihad/post-Jihad years. Not having the product, it sounds as though the Scorpions figured things out with their empire in their new turning point product since we saw them in WoR and ISP3.
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The Blood Spirits leap to mind after the WoR, and they weren't able to make it in Clan space. I doubt the Jaguars would have fared any better. They'd have had to have sought their fortunes elsewhere to have a chance, like a forgotten Deep Periphery base far away from the other Clans and in total secrecy... ;)
Depending on what you mean by "relatively strong," the Capellans might fit the bill from the 4th SW to the Capellan Crusades/DA, as might the Taurians in the Jihad/post-Jihad years. Not having the product, it sounds as though the Scorpions figured things out with their empire in their new turning point product since we saw them in WoR and ISP3.
the Blood Spirits and Capellans definitely came to mind, but as you said, the Spirits didn't make it...It would have been interesting to see a broken faction that is able to persist
and the CapCon kind of started out as an underdog, only in a historical view were they larger, whereas the Jaguars started out as like the big bad Clan
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any particular reason at this juncture you'd like to try and steer the conversation back to it's original subject from 18 pages and almost 5 years ago?
Resurrecting Smoke Jaguar has evolved into speculation about Jag refugees getting their acts together and appealing upon deaf ears. The Clans didn't want another iteration of CSJ any more than people wanted Martin and Lewis to get back together (that would be Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis to you young folks).
CSJ were the Hollywood-esque black hat villains to which American culture is accustomed. They were unlikable bullies who eventually committed enough unforced errors to get written out of the script as a viable faction.
The Clans are rather flaky with handling renegade forces; Even CSJ treated Wolf's Dragoons as normal, IS opponents on Luthien. Even the Wolves in Exile didn't receive uniform treatment from the various Clans.
For those who want CSJ to make a comeback, how would you envision them? What changes would you make, and what would you prefer to keep?
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I am not a Smoke Jaguar, however the I think they got more interesting after the fall. Some joined the Brotherhood of Randis, others founded the Fidelis, the rest found the death they hoped for or found new lives to build. I hope they do not build a new clan more to the fact that the Clans I find more interesting are the ones who have adapted to the world outside of the Homeworld Clans.
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For those who want CSJ to make a comeback, how would you envision them? What changes would you make, and what would you prefer to keep?
That's difficult to say.
One of the problems/advantages with the Jags is that they never got a write up on the culture, their way of doing things, their view of their history.
We can only make inferences. The Jags have apparently had several falls from power and had to claw their way back to the top...but there is very little in the way of info about any of these supposed falls. There is some indication the early Jags were hamstrung by rebellions across their territories after Klondike, slowing their expansion, but recent info state the Clan was expansionist. Lincoln Osis has been described by both Clan and IS sources as a tactical and strategic genius, so why was his performance as Khan so lacklustre?
Answers for all these and many, many more questions can of course be provided, but without a definite source, they would...at best...be inferences.
That allows Jag fans to interpret the available info as they see fit. My inference (above) that the Jags were heavily into science and engineering might seem reasonable based on the info we have, but I' m sure others would disagree and would prefer a different take. Similarly, there are areas where the Jags appear to diverge significantly from standard Clan norms. Cyberware for example. Most Clans would eschew an empowered warrior, and would craft limbs as a replacement whereas the Jags handed out a limb upgrade as a matter of routine. The one mention (that I recall) of a dedicated hospital ship amongst the Clans is with the Jaguars. A lot of players, and even some IU, believe the Jags did not use freebirth troops. They did. They were one of the few Clans which maintained dedicated artillery units, and had little qualms about deviating significantly from standard Clan formations...the largest Trinary formation given had, IIRC, 9 stars. You get hints of these little quirks but no real background info to give them context, or a framework.
The question about what Jag fans want saved therefore depends on how you see them. Are they simple black and white Space Nazis...or are they more nuanced? How are they similar to other Clans and, just as important, how are they different?
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I don't know about other sources, but in the Twilight of the Clans novels, Lincoln was described as being a tactical genius but not particularly skilled at strategic-level operations, which was a liability for someone of his rank because it to him micromanaging things.
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One of the problems/advantages with the Jags is that they never got a write up on the culture, their way of doing things, their view of their history.
I do agree. CSJ was already dead long before a lot of the books were out.
I discovered BT when a friend started playing a computer game with Clan Omnis. I wasn't so interested in sci-fi at the time but I'd watch him play before friends showed up for the weekend rpg session. Years later, when a group at the local game club started a BT campaign, I was like "What are all these 'mechs?" I wasn't familiar with the IS at all and never paid enough attention to the computer game's backstory. Since I didn't have the books, I relied on the backgrounds of the factions through the other players and pretty much didn't really care -I was a wargamer and all I needed was the rules to play, not the backstory...
The above being said, I don't understand why people want to rewrite the story. Political factions come and go all the time, so I can only shrug and move on. From my point of view, the BTU factions survive far too long to make sense.
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I don't know about other sources, but in the Twilight of the Clans novels, Lincoln was described as being a tactical genius but not particularly skilled at strategic-level operations, which was a liability for someone of his rank because it to him micromanaging things.
He is indeed mentioned as a tactical genius in Grave Covenant, and for some reason the people there equate Tactical Genius with Strategic Dunce. There are a couple of write ups where he is referred to as a Strategic Genius, but for the most part it isn't mentioned. Or contradicted, at least, explicitly.
Consistency has ever been a problem and the same lack of information that lets players infer their own interpretation of the Jaguars also works for authors. Which explains the somewhat contradictory stance on artillery and freebirth troops, amongst others.
Reading a bit between the lines, and trying to make sense of all the issues involved, my reading would be that Lincoln Osis was indeed a tactical and strategic genius. The IS feared an Osis led invasion and did so with cause. As ER62 says, he would have been a terrifying war leader
Where he failed...and what caused him to make mistakes...was his personality. He was a glory hound, an ego maniac and he lacked confidence in himself. He was as likely to make a decision based upon how he believed it would reflect back on him as he was to make one based on tactical or strategic values. An example is when he tried to emulate Howell on Tukayyid or tried to shift the blame for the failures of Luthien and Tukayyid, or ordered the Sixth to abandon its positions simply because be felt defensive tactics would make him look bad. He was a Khan able to sacrifice his own Clan to make himself look good.
There are also a couple of scenes which make me think he was losing support within the Clan....that would make sense given a string of high profile failures during his tenure and the blatant corruption he showed by retaining the Khanship after bring elected ilKhan, but it could also just be the way I read it. If so, he would be under a lot of pressure to maintain support inside the Clan as his supporters melted away.
So...whether he was a strategic genius or not would depend on how much of his ego and insecurity he could put aside.
Which...if he were winning...would be easy to do, and so make him doubly dangerous. Its one reason why an Osis led invasion was considered so dangerous for the IS.
But...when losing...putting his ego aside would be difficult, and he would increasingly make decisions based on his own need for glory and political security. Making him a huge liability for his own Clan during Bulldog and Serpent. Which he was.
But as I said, that's my reading and the info we have is vague enough others are possible. But I like this as it provides, to me, a better explanation for the Jaguars collapse than "they were so unprepared for the invasion they had spent years preparing for and would have launched months previously that they armed themselves with guns"
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Some joined the Brotherhood of Randis, others founded the Fidelis, the rest found the death they hoped for or found new lives to build.
And Astrokazy and Solaris.
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The above being said, I don't understand why people want to rewrite the story. Political factions come and go all the time, so I can only shrug and move on. From my point of view, the BTU factions survive far too long to make sense.
This whole thread started when I reread a passage in FM warden clans mentioning how the shark khan attempted to save the jags but was thwarted. I find the idea of a “ saved” and absorped Jaguar clan into another clan to make the stronger a cool idea.
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The great thing about battletech is the people and especially the writers remember. CSJ May be “dead” but their influence and several customs live on. Like mercenaries there are always stories and ways to bring them back even if you think that there is no chance at all. The Jags in no small way have been saved and preserved. At least the idea that someone was willing to absorb them is what save the Ice Hellions and the ELH. To me that is a heck of a legacy.
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Phelan took the entire 6th Jaguar Dragoons wholesale as abtakha.
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This whole thread started when I reread a passage in FM warden clans mentioning how the shark khan attempted to save the jags but was thwarted. I find the idea of a “ saved” and absorped Jaguar clan into another clan to make the stronger a cool idea.
That would have been a sound business investment -Buying out failed Clans that have proven to be bankrupt. Those failed Clans would be retrained and re-educated on why they failed, and swallow the bitter pill of learning from their mistakes.
There is a problem with that, as once they are absorbed, they are no longer part of their former Clan, so unless the new owners are plotting some Machiavellian stunt of resurrecting CSJ as a puppet to gain another vote on the Clan Council, I don't see a point in it. A "new and improved" CSJ would still have all the baggage of the corrupt and failed old CSJ and would have an uphill climb just to prove themselves. call them anything else, make up a new set of silly rituals and move forward. The past sucked, stop embracing it.
There are no Smoke Jaguars, they are either full members of new Clans that took them in or Bandit Caste, separate from the Clans and unrecognized. Keeping silly rituals is just cultist self-deception, there is no CSJ to make them Smoke Jaguars. Swallow that bitter pill and move on.
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There are no Smoke Jaguars, they are either full members of new Clans that took them in or Bandit Caste, separate from the Clans and unrecognized. Keeping silly rituals is just cultist self-deception, there is no CSJ to make them Smoke Jaguars. Swallow that bitter pill and move on.
First...there is more than enough vaguery and contradictions and loose ends in the text that would easily allow for the Jaguars to make a comeback. That is even without allowing for the Clans usual falback...most Clans appear to have made plans for a doomsday scenario with plans to evacuate the Cluster and relocate to some sanctuary. As the Clan has experienced several falls prior to 3060, one could presume the Jaguars might have made such plans.
Any Clan marked as destroyed can therefore theoretically make a come back.
Of course, that says nothing about if they did make such plans, or enacted them if they did, but the possibility is there.
Second, given the commentary of Paul Moon in Rock, it seems fairly likely that the Fidelis will soon announce themselves as the Smoke Jaguars and that they have always seen themselves as such. There is indeed a Clan Smoke Jaguar and one that arguably is the only legitimate Clan of Kerensky in the Inner Sphere. That legitimacy, if it exists, opens up several interesting possibilities for the Clan
We'll have to see how things pan out in the ilClan era though.
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First...there is more than enough vaguery and contradictions and loose ends in the text that would easily allow for the Jaguars to make a comeback. That is even without allowing for the Clans usual falback...most Clans appear to have made plans for a doomsday scenario with plans to evacuate the Cluster and relocate to some sanctuary. As the Clan has experienced several falls prior to 3060, one could presume the Jaguars might have made such plans.
Much is up to the whims of the writers. Yes, CSJ experienced several severe failures prior to their demise...and learned nothing from those errors, other than to blame somebody else.
Of course, that says nothing about if they did make such plans, or enacted them if they did, but the possibility is there.
I have doubts, considering CSJ considered themselves infallible.
There is indeed a Clan Smoke Jaguar and one that arguably is the only legitimate Clan of Kerensky in the Inner Sphere. That legitimacy, if it exists, opens up several interesting possibilities for the Clan
I had to take an aspirin after my eyes rolled so hard. CSJ delusions are why they were crushed in the first place and any Clan that failed to learn from CSJ's numerous unforced errors and inherent flaws deserve the same fate.
Kerensky built the Clans on a foundation of lies; Lies about the Star League, lies about the IS, lies about the very purpose of the Clans. Cut through Kerensky's egomania and demand for worship, and there isn't much left -The Clans were pawns, and convinced to be proud of being pawns.
With all the uniform historical data available in the IS about the SL, the Clans still have no clue about the SL, the same way people in Comstar had no clue about Comstar, despite all the historical records readily available.
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Much is up to the whims of the writers. Yes, CSJ experienced several severe failures prior to their demise...and learned nothing from those errors, other than to blame somebody else.
Osis blamed others. Not every Jaguar appears to have taken that road. As for what the Clan learned...as we know nothing about these falls other than they took place, we cannot say what lessons have been learned.
Did the Jaguars have an Exodus option? Maybe. Maybe not. The precedent has been set if the authors ever want to pull that trigger and there are enough loose ends that such an option could be easily slotted in.
Same for the other Clans...though arguably the Ice Hellions and Blood Spirits would be problematic given the circumstances. Problematic, but not impossible.
The possibility exists.
Which is the point. You wanted to make the definitive assertion that the Jags are dead.
A couple of years ago, there would have been little argument. The Exodus option would still be available, and all the loose ends from TotC would still be there.
Today, such an announcement seems short sighted. We know the history of the Fidelis, we know where they came from and we know a little about what they have. Sixty years of peace, and their own enclaves, armies and manufactories.
And with Paul Moon talking about the re-emergence of the Jaguar, it seems likely that they will soon enough proclaim themselves as Clan Smoke Jaguar once again.
So...as things stand...the announcement that there are no Smoke Jaguars seems unlikely to be 100% factual.
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No. They were fielding captured IS mechs that had been fixed with captured IS weapons and equipment. The point was that those galaxies were so hard up that they didn't have the gear to upgrade any of their mechs to Clan weaponry.
Wow even straight weapon swaps was beyond them???
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So...as things stand...the announcement that there are no Smoke Jaguars seems unlikely to be 100% factual.
A handful of people claiming to be legitimate doesn't make them legitimate. There is no Clan Smoke Jaguar, no matter how many pretenders claim they are. The other Clans don't acknowledge them, which is half the battle, as Clan Wolf in Exile proved.
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Wow even straight weapon swaps was beyond them???
All the weapons were already allocated for front line unit, so no, they couldn't.
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A handful of people claiming to be legitimate doesn't make them legitimate. There is no Clan Smoke Jaguar, no matter how many pretenders claim they are. The other Clans don't acknowledge them, which is half the battle, as Clan Wolf in Exile proved.
CWiE was Abjured.
The Jags weren't
But maybe you'll be right. Its still premature to make the declaration until we find put what Moon and the Fidelis are doing.
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CWiE was Abjured.
The Jags weren't
There are no Jags.
There are active Clans who ignore the abjuration. A law that isn't obeyed isn't much of a law.
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All the weapons were already allocated for front line unit, so no, they couldn't.
I re read the first twilight of the clans book and the garrison commander of huntress prior to Russou Howell straight up said he had vintage SLDF gear from the caches. He was supplementing that with captured combine mechs. So wouldn’t anything they put in the field be mixed tech? I doubt those combine mechs cake in mint condition!
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The captured mechs were being cannibalized for parts- stripping the most damaged ones to get enough weapons and armor to put the others back into working order. The best stuff they'd have had were intact Royal mechs or modern anti-Clan designs that had been restored to working order.
Look, if you want to do an AU scenario where they do have mixed tech IS designs and Clan omnimechs, that's cool. But the answer to what happened in canon is not going to change unless Catalyst publishes a book that reveals that they really did have a cluster of omnis that they broke out during the fight.
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The captured mechs were being cannibalized for parts- stripping the most damaged ones to get enough weapons and armor to put the others back into working order. The best stuff they'd have had were intact Royal mechs or modern anti-Clan designs that had been restored to working order.
Look, if you want to do an AU scenario where they do have mixed tech IS designs and Clan omnimechs, that's cool. But the answer to what happened in canon is not going to change unless Catalyst publishes a book that reveals that they really did have a cluster of omnis that they broke out during the fight.
I think we are saying the same things. If say they got an Akuma missing an arm and a missile pod they would have swapped in a SLDF vintage replacement if no clan material was handy right?
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Pretty much. But that wouldn't make it a Mixed Tech design. "Mixed Tech" specifically refers to a mech, battle armor suit, ground vehicle, or ASF that uses both Clan and Inner Sphere equipment. A retrofitted Akuma would likely be something of an oddball given that the Jaguars probably wouldn't have a lot of spare MRM launchers or ammo lying around, so they'd either have to find some way to jury-rig something else or just leave it as deadweight.
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Pretty much. But that wouldn't make it a Mixed Tech design. "Mixed Tech" specifically refers to a mech, battle armor suit, ground vehicle, or ASF that uses both Clan and Inner Sphere equipment. A retrofitted Akuma would likely be something of an oddball given that the Jaguars probably wouldn't have a lot of spare MRM launchers or ammo lying around, so they'd either have to find some way to jury-rig something else or just leave it as deadweight.
Ok thank you for that! Mixed tech = purpose built fusion of clan and IS tech such some of the Republic of the sphere designs in the dark age. Frankenmech = the reclaimed Akuma in my example which would have been a true bastard mix of Combine, 2nd line clan tech and or SLDF parts to get it running
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No.
Alternate idea for you instead of flipping out and wasting their strength in the Burrock Absorption the Spirits pounce a year later on the Jags.
One of the items that I think is important to note is that Osis was not a able to sway his fellow khans ( mainly because he assumed that the other khans would flock to help him...) a canny politician could have fired up the notoriously hot headed Schmidt Of the blood spirits that IS had declared themselves the new star league AND that a new royal black watch was in the homeworlds! Her ancestors were in the OG black watch and if he would have tweak that she prob would have dropped the entire blood guard to exterminate the new black watch as a matter of honor
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How many stars do you think a Jaguar Cluster would normally have?
From Sarna.net I get the impression that each full-strength cluster should have at least 18 stars. Just wondering what the fans think.
thank you
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Ok thank you for that! Mixed tech = purpose built fusion of clan and IS tech such some of the Republic of the sphere designs in the dark age. Frankenmech = the reclaimed Akuma in my example which would have been a true bastard mix of Combine, 2nd line clan tech and or SLDF parts to get it running
Or you are looking at early when Clan weapons were coming out, they put a cERPPC on some SLDF Royal design . . .
Heck, if you wanted to give them a leg up- say that Akuma is missing its ERPPC? give it a Enhanced ERPPC dusted off from some cache.
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How many stars do you think a Jaguar Cluster would normally have?
From Sarna.net I get the impression that each full-strength cluster should have at least 18 stars. Just wondering what the fans think.
thank you
A typical cluster is 60 - 75 mechs so I would say 18 stars (90 mechs) is or their larger clusters.
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From Sarna eighteen stars seem to be more ground elements. So may be 12 mech stars or 15 mech stars. Also, its possible that some trinaries could be two mech stars and one elemental star without identifying the trinary as a mixed unit.
Again my impression. But if a Jaguar player was to create a cluster for their unit, how many ground combat units would you use/have.
Thank you
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Or you are looking at early when Clan weapons were coming out, they put a cERPPC on some SLDF Royal design . . .
Heck, if you wanted to give them a leg up- say that Akuma is missing its ERPPC? give it a Enhanced ERPPC dusted off from some cache.
I was thinking in the run up to task force serpents attack
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I finally got a copy of the “ dragon roars”scenario book after more than 20 yrs and one of the items that stood out to me was that it was estimated that “ two to two and half galaxies” escaped bull dog did that include the force brendon Corbett DID NOT take to huntress?
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From Sarna eighteen stars seem to be more ground elements. So may be 12 mech stars or 15 mech stars. Also, its possible that some trinaries could be two mech stars and one elemental star without identifying the trinary as a mixed unit.
Again my impression. But if a Jaguar player was to create a cluster for their unit, how many ground combat units would you use/have.
Thank you
The only thing we ever get outlining their structure is Tau on Wayside before they get ground down . . . and the implication is they are a bit understrength to be 'new & deployable' that quickly. IIRC, each cluster was 3 mech trinaries, an Elemental trinary and some Aero though they did not play a large part in the story. I do not think they even had command stars.
Then again, they might not have been understrength. When the 4th Jaguar Dragoons were rebuilt, they only had 3 Omni trinaries that Phelan took- should have been SOME Elemental support even if all the Aero got shot down as the Warden Wolves burned in system. Then again, they could have been Supernova Trinaries but they did not get their strength in FMWC IIRC.
So, the Jags could have been using a lot of the 'average' cluster- 3 mech trinaries, 1 Ele/Inf Trinary, & 1 ASF binary/trinary.
Sjhernan- yes IMO it would . . . it would also include those who became the Dark, who went to Randis, and other places. IIRC Hang Mehta showed up with roughly two galaxies.
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Sjhernan- yes IMO it would . . . it would also include those who became the Dark, who went to Randis, and other places. IIRC Hang Mehta showed up with roughly two galaxies.
Thank you! So Corbett peeled off about half a galaxy of Troops 2 to 3 clusters?
Also after re reading both the huntress focused novels and scenario book I was unclear if any of the jag reinforcement droppers were shot down in route to huntress?
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I don't recall seeing it mentioned either way. Once Task Force Serpent got to the planet, their naval assets disappeared and weren't mentioned for the rest of the story.
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I don't recall seeing it mentioned either way. Once Task Force Serpent got to the planet, their naval assets disappeared and weren't mentioned for the rest of the story.
Are you talking about Jaguar warships? I think only two ships of the Jaguars survived in Clan space: the Streaking Mist und the Osis Pride (i am not sure if it really was the Pride I would have to check it). The Mist became a somewhat gypsy ship travelling Clan space up and down until the remnants of Clan Ice Hellion formed an alliance with the ship, repaired it and used it until it was scuttled. I think the Osis Pride became the flagship for the Jaguar until it was hunted down after the Wars of Reaving.
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No I was wondering if any of the drop ships of the jag reinforcements were shot down by serpent on their burn in?i know they were scrambled to try and stop them but not sure if any actually succeeded
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Thank you! So Corbett peeled off about half a galaxy of Troops 2 to 3 clusters?
Also after re reading both the huntress focused novels and scenario book I was unclear if any of the jag reinforcement droppers were shot down in route to huntress?
Now, what I said was if the Star League's guess of 2.5 galaxies left the Jag OZ and Mehta had reorganized her troops into roughly two galaxies of troops- half frontline and half secondline- to retake Huntress leaves some missing. Which means that 'half' a galaxy of troops diverted or deserted along the way . . . and combat reports are notorious for their inaccuracy. Look at some of the battle reports in history about what was faced and claimed kills/damage, one of the things that separates militaries for skill/professionalism that rarely gets mentioned is accuracy in reporting- both in initial spotting and after action reports. IE, we have three bodies in the bushes but we must have killed more of them than they go us- everyone of our dead soldiers managed to kill 3 of theirs before succumbing! Or the bombing reports- 10 trucks destroyed in a 3 truck convoy.
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No I was wondering if any of the drop ships of the jag reinforcements were shot down by serpent on their burn in?i know they were scrambled to try and stop them but not sure if any actually succeeded
IIRC at least a Broadsword DS is mentioned (shot down by aerospace Elements of the ELH).
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Are you talking about Jaguar warships? I think only two ships of the Jaguars survived in Clan space: the Streaking Mist und the Osis Pride (i am not sure if it really was the Pride I would have to check it). The Mist became a somewhat gypsy ship travelling Clan space up and down until the remnants of Clan Ice Hellion formed an alliance with the ship, repaired it and used it until it was scuttled. I think the Osis Pride became the flagship for the Jaguar until it was hunted down after the Wars of Reaving.
No, I'm talking about Serpent. They had a huge naval force, but once Serpent was planetside it disappeared- there was no mention of using naval assets to attack Jaguar forces or strongholds on Huntress or to attack Osis's forces when they arrived.
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No, I'm talking about Serpent. They had a huge naval force, but once Serpent was planetside it disappeared- there was no mention of using naval assets to attack Jaguar forces or strongholds on Huntress or to attack Osis's forces when they arrived.
If a recall correctly osis reinforcements came in via PowerPoint and the Serpent armada chose to stay aside as they were very busted up. Will need to check my source books though
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No, I'm talking about Serpent. They had a huge naval force, but once Serpent was planetside it disappeared- there was no mention of using naval assets to attack Jaguar forces or strongholds on Huntress or to attack Osis's forces when they arrived.
Ah you're right. While the Serpent fleet managed to destroy the ships under the command of Hang Mehta they didn't intercept Osis fleet. My guess is that Osis arived at a pirate point. Battle wise the Serpent fleet should have had the numerical advantage but all ships were pretty beaten up (after all they had fought 3 engagements, 1 vs the Ghost Bears and 2 vs the Jaguars).
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It is mentioned (in novel Sword and Fire) that Lincoln Osis and his Taskforce arrived at a pirate jump Point.
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Yeah . . . Serpent fleet was spent- which is why they started losing ships.
1st battle vs Ghost Bears, one CS vessel was badly raked on a side
2nd battle vs Jags heading for planet
Jags had Liberator & 2 Vincents IIRC, lost one ship with two pretty shot up. Note, the writer DID lose track of the Drac warship at the time
3rd battle vs Mehta's return- a few weeks later
do not recall what they had but ammo was low but two of the ships (CS destroyer & Fox IIRC) were flying wrecks
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Yeah . . . Serpent fleet was spent- which is why they started losing ships.
1st battle vs Ghost Bears, one CS vessel was badly raked on a side
2nd battle vs Jags heading for planet
Jags had Liberator & 2 Vincents IIRC, lost one ship with two pretty shot up. Note, the writer DID lose track of the Drac warship at the time
3rd battle vs Mehta's return- a few weeks later
do not recall what they had but ammo was low but two of the ships (CS destroyer & Fox IIRC) were flying wrecks
The serpent flagship was mauled badly in that fight too
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Oh yeah, Invisible Truth was badly shot up but being a battlecruiser was still in better condition than the rest. IIRC she was running out of missiles.
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Which ships of Serpent did surviv?e I think it were: Invisible Truth, Ranger, Firefang (captured GS ship), one of the Fox's and the Kyushu. Destroyed should be the Rostock, Starlight and Smaragd
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Another plot line I keep missing on is how many units did Russou Howell have during the time after the initial huntress attack? A binary? Not more than a small cluster right?
And after the jags were totally crushed how much did he escape with?
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IIRC he had more troops than equipment after a while since released Jaguars faded into the 'woods.'
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Very interesting reading Children of Kerensky. I guess it's a good policy to never say never lol.
I can not wait to see how everything plays out in Hour of the Wolf!
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Very interesting reading Children of Kerensky. I guess it's a good policy to never say never lol.
I can not wait to see how everything plays out in Hour of the Wolf!
Is there something Jaguar-related in Children?
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Is there something Jaguar-related in Children?
The Fidelis and Paul Moon play a small part
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Is there something Jaguar-related in Children?
Oh yes. There really is. Paul Moon reveals that they are the Jaguars to Alaric. Alaric and Paul come to an arrangement. As ilClan, Alaric promises to restore the Jaguars, gradually of course. Paul's end is to give the Wolves all the knowledge of Terra's defences. Interestingly, there are some Fidelis who do not wish to become Jaguars. Paul will continue to lead them, allowing the soon to be elected Khan and saKhan to operate free of his shadow.
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Jaguars = Saved.
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Ha! Never thought that would happen. Jags got killed as a warning to all the other Clans. Now they are basically back. Outstanding.
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Ha! Never thought that would happen. Jags got killed as a warning to all the other Clans. Now they are basically back. Outstanding.
Both Cat clans seem to be on the way to a revival, if things work out.
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Maybe both Clan remains are merged to a new Clan.
Either Clan Feline or Clan Hobbes ;-)
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Considering Inana's role in saving the Jaguars and creating the Fidelis, and her having the Nova Cats' foresight; it could very well be that she saved the Jags because she saw that they would have a role in reviving the Nova Cats as well. Also, her marriage to Paul Moon could be a foreshadowing of a similar marriage between the 2 feline Clans.
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Ha! Never thought that would happen. Jags got killed as a warning to all the other Clans. Now they are basically back. Outstanding.
Agreed. A fitting chapter in the IlClan era would be Operation Dragonslayer II, with the restored Jaguars and Nova Cats spearheading the conquest of Luthien. This time with Wolf's Dragoons on their side >:D
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Agreed. A fitting chapter in the IlClan era would be Operation Dragonslayer II, with the restored Jaguars and Nova Cats spearheading the conquest of Luthien. This time with Wolf's Dragoons on their side >:D
Here is a question though: would those revived Clans be more freeborn or more trueborn? I mean I somehow doubt the Jaguars and Cats still have some form of genetic repository. OR would the spiit Cats have some samples left to share? Oh and here is an interesting point: if the Nova ctas revive again wouldn't the Free Worlds one hell of a problem in their midst? I mean the Clan Protectorate has become a part of the League (though those are mostly Foxes and spriti Cats with some Nova Cat refugees in the mix)
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So here we get into old answers and some little nuggets . . .
1) The Warden Wolves could have and be using the legacies of the 6th Wolf Guards Cluster which would probably have a significant number of bloodnamed. Throw in all the bondsmen they took operating as part of Operation Bulldog and the Warden Wolves might have the largest collection of Jaguar legacies outside of the Home Worlds. With the Wardens only being given the knife under the previous TPTB, it was not like we got to see any sort of post-Jihad rebuilding or cultural development from that influx of Jaguars.
2) A MWDA Steel Wolf dossier, from Republic Wolf enclaves which means Katya Kerensky's followers and any Warden Exiles that joined them, has a trueborn that is from Jaguar legacies on the maternal side. OP5 mentions about how she is PO'd b/c she cannot compete for a Bloodname due to it basically being inactive- this does not mean it was not active among the Wardens as the dossier has some hedging- like just learning her history. Inova Wolf was decanted 4/1/3110 and she pilots a Mad Cat Mk II. So . . . where did the legacy come from that was used to create her? A old legacy the Crusader Wolves controlled or had access to that they sent along with Katya's Delta Galaxy?
3) The Jaguars who fled had some Bloodnamed and brought some sibkos with them when they fled. I thought they also took some genetics but it has been a while. No matter they set up and it has been something like 70+ years on New Earth with 10-15 years on Wildcat before that period. The Fidelis did seem to abandon the iron wombs at the time but Moon said they had restarted the breeding program after Gray Monday IIRC, so they are to the point the 1st Iron Womb generation comes of age. But even before they they would have just reverted to what the Clans were like around the time of Op Klondike- freebirth children would be raised as warriors and be eligible for the bloodnames . . . for over 80 years. If you look at the language Moon used, he was referring to Trent as the Founder of the new Fidelis/Jaguar so they may not care as much about the legacies before their journey to Wildcat and their wider gene pool during the Fidelis period would stand them in good stead.
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Agreed. A fitting chapter in the IlClan era would be Operation Dragonslayer II, with the restored Jaguars and Nova Cats spearheading the conquest of Luthien. This time with Wolf's Dragoons on their side >:D
I would weep at the beauty. A man can dream.
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Considering Inana's role in saving the Jaguars and creating the Fidelis, and her having the Nova Cats' foresight; it could very well be that she saved the Jags because she saw that they would have a role in reviving the Nova Cats as well. Also, her marriage to Paul Moon could be a foreshadowing of a similar marriage between the 2 feline Clans.
Very interesting also way back in their post founding era a love affair gone wrong was one of the major reasons the nova cats and jags developed such a hate for another another
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The key to having the Jags get help from other clans and survive is for Osis to not bring his two requests for aid before the Grand Council. Instead of bluntly asking for help and looking weak before all the Khans, Osis (or someone in the Jag leadership) should have contacted a couple of Clans (maybe Sharks and Hellions), conducted backroom negotiations, and contracted to use of a piece of their toumans, like the weakened Wolves once did with the Horses to protect their OZ border with the Bears. As already mentioned, a cluster or two from another clan at the right time on Huntress would have ensured that the Jags survived Serpent and a galaxy or two from another clan at the right time could have preserved some of the Jaguar OZ from Bulldog. I'm sure the contracted clans would have exacted a high price from the Jags (Dire Wolf and Warhawk production licenses for the Sharks and Spheroid holdings for the Hellions, for example), but the Jags could have held on for a while longer.
It might not have been much longer if, as already pointed out, another Clan simply decided to take everything remaining from the Jags in their weakened state. But if the objective is to survive Serpent and/or Bulldog, then the way the Jags do it is not to publicly rely on the kindness of strangers (a foreign concept if ever there was one among the Clans!) but rather to make a deal.
My 2 Kerenskies... YMMV.
What was interesting to me and totally understandable from the jag mindset is their unrelenting pursuit of TF serpent which took a huge amount of time and ground them down. However could not the jags have pumped the brakes after they had driven the IS forces into the swamps and mountains? They had reclaimed their genetic repository etc and forced their enemy into retreat on a hostile world osis would have had a stronger hand I think to go public to rally the clans with at least a PR win
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That would have been smart, but the Jaguars were not the "let's be smart and do things strategically Clan." They were the "you scream and you leap: keep attacking until you win or you die Clan."
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That would have been smart, but the Jaguars were not the "let's be smart and do things strategically Clan." They were the "you scream and you leap: keep attacking until you win or you die Clan."
Yep very on brand for them.
Which is why I was so intrigued by the short story in sharpnel Issue 2 about how the jags got the Howell bloodname and how different it was from the normal jags
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Interesting thing about the Howell Bloodname is that it is still propagated by the Ravens.
Does the death (however temporary) of the Jags mean that all of the Howell Bloodname heritages reverted to the Snow Ravens? Or will they be treated as separate Bloodhouses?
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Interesting thing about the Howell Bloodname is that it is still propagated by the Ravens.
Does the death (however temporary) of the Jags mean that all of the Howell Bloodname heritages reverted to the Snow Ravens? Or will they be treated as separate Bloodhouses?
An interesting question. Another one which just occurred to me from reading your post - how much of the trademark Raven 'family' skulduggery goes on in the Howell or other shared Bloodhouses? Given the politicking the Jaguars engaged in during the Revival - Bulldog era one might think that the Ravens' penchant for such games rubbed off. Or perhaps found an already willing audience.
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What was interesting to me and totally understandable from the jag mindset is their unrelenting pursuit of TF serpent which took a huge amount of time and ground them down. However could not the jags have pumped the brakes after they had driven the IS forces into the swamps and mountains? They had reclaimed their genetic repository etc and forced their enemy into retreat on a hostile world osis would have had a stronger hand I think to go public to rally the clans with at least a PR win
The thing is though that the Jaguar forces were just as weakened as Taskforce Serpent. In the novel Osis discusses a request for reinforcments which he simply cannot give due to heavy losses his forces had taken. He also mentions that his SaKhan was killed by the Kathil Uhlans. And Serpent still had some sort of fresh reserves (the badly mauled 11th Lyran Guards and the battalion-sized Drakons) which made the balance somewhat even despite Serpent withdrawing from themain enclaves which were severly damaged at this point.
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One thing that I noticed after reading Era Digest: Golden Century is how much the Jaguars' downfall mirrors that of the Mongooses'. An aggressive Clan known for its political games seeks the aid of the Grand Council when they are weakened and need help in their most desperate hour, but due to their aggression and politicking have lost any allies they may have once had, and are abandoned to their fate by the other Clans. The Jaguars it seems didn't learn from the fall of the Clan they absorbed, but somehow took on that Clans' worst traits, despite not propagating any of their legacies.
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I beg your pardon, the Jaguars were so inept in playing the game of Thrones, that they were played, not Players.
They could have tried their own Harvest trials, but they did not.
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Does the death (however temporary) of the Jags mean that all of the Howell Bloodname heritages reverted to the Snow Ravens? Or will they be treated as separate Bloodhouses?
No its a single Bloodhouse . . . you may have someone considered the Raven leader and someone the Jaguar leader, but they have a House Leader. When a Bloodname comes open, then candidates from both sides can compete- in fact they probably will, as a Jaguar Howell is likely to nominate a Jaguar protege and a Raven Howell will do the same. Control of the House is actually tested between two Clans' philosophy with control shifting to the better performing Clan.
IMO it is that sort of situation that I would have loved to see explored. The Bloodhouses should be a an extremely important part of a Clan's culture and politics yet we gloss over it after BoK. We get the insinuation of the shared Bloodnames being less prestigious but IF it is looked at in the light of direct competition between two Clans, a shared Bloodname should be considered higher tier than a exclusive.
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The thing is though that the Jaguar forces were just as weakened as Taskforce Serpent. In the novel Osis discusses a request for reinforcments which he simply cannot give due to heavy losses his forces had taken. He also mentions that his SaKhan was killed by the Kathil Uhlans. And Serpent still had some sort of fresh reserves (the badly mauled 11th Lyran Guards and the battalion-sized Drakons) which made the balance somewhat even despite Serpent withdrawing from themain enclaves which were severly damaged at this point.
But was that right after the ilkhan and jaguars heart smashed in? I need to check my books...
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But was that right after the ilkhan and jaguars heart smashed in? I need to check my books...
From what I remember (that is from the novel mind you) is that the Jaguars made headway when Osis landed but it turned into a quagmire with the IS giving as good as they got. It was a bloody standstill at that point.
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Interesting thing about the Howell Bloodname is that it is still propagated by the Ravens.
Does the death (however temporary) of the Jags mean that all of the Howell Bloodname heritages reverted to the Snow Ravens? Or will they be treated as separate Bloodhouses?
I imagine it is presently a minor bloodhouse of the Ravens. Minor bloodhouses, while sometimes being held exclusively by one Clan, don't show up in the "exclusive" list. An example of this is the Jade Falcons Nilloba line, which has only 5 legacies, held by the Jade Falcons.
They would be the same bloodhouse. Trials or ilKhan decrees of Founding would be needed to establish a separate Howell bloodhouse, but there would likely need to be a living Howell to do so.
An interesting question. Another one which just occurred to me from reading your post - how much of the trademark Raven 'family' skulduggery goes on in the Howell or other shared Bloodhouses? Given the politicking the Jaguars engaged in during the Revival - Bulldog era one might think that the Ravens' penchant for such games rubbed off. Or perhaps found an already willing audience.
I may be a bit biased, but I imagine quite a bit. All of the Bloodhouses are pretty cut-throat, and the examples we've seen are those exclusively controlled. It'll be worse when you factor in separate Clan viewpoints.
As for the skulduggery, well, yeah.
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Yes, Liam Howell kind of destroyed his Bloodhouses' fortune. Not good times for the Ravens.
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Yes, Liam Howell kind of destroyed his Bloodhouses' fortune. Not good times for the Ravens.
. . . and led to the Jaguar's Betrayer?
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Yes, Liam Howell kind of destroyed his Bloodhouses' fortune. Not good times for the Ravens.
Ehn. It got used to their advantage.
. . . and led to the Jaguar's Betrayer?
I mean, only indirectly, sorta. Without Liam Howell's shenanigans, there would be no move by the Jaguars to gain Howell bloodheritages, without those, no Trent. To be fair, someone of similar views/experience was still likely to have arisen.
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. . . and led to the Jaguar's Betrayer?
They enjoyed huge success with the Jags, even with The Jaguar, who extended their life by refusing to fade away.
There just happens to also be a downtrodden warrior who was cheated of his bloodname and bloodfuture.
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While on the subject of the Jaguar Howells, the recently released second short story for the Battle of Tukayyid Campaign release features Brandon Howell as the main character, piloting what looks to be a Timber Wolf N.
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While on the subject of the Jaguar Howells, the recently released second short story for the Battle of Tukayyid Campaign release features Brandon Howell as the main character, piloting what looks to be a Timber Wolf N.
??!? Where can I find this
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??!? Where can I find this
https://fs.battletech.com/fiction/ (https://fs.battletech.com/fiction/)
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Also can someone give me the run down on this N varient. I could not find anything on it
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It's in Recognition Guide 5. Mounts paired ER PPCs, LRM 15s, and Medium Pulse lasers, along with a quartet of machine guns.
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IIRC it is one of the gun port matching that is not a T . . . because there was already a T.
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The N matches the classic 3050 cover art and the original sculpt Timber Wolf mini. RecGuide 5 has a Timber Wolf T config matching the current art.
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The two galaxies that garrisoned huntress that serpent first fought were noted to be fielding captured IS designs. Would these have been given the IIC treatment? I would think so since that garrison was so hard up for gear...
Three of the clusters used captured IS designs (though a cluster's worth were Star League designs that very well could have come from Brian Caches). The other three clusters and the galaxy command trinaries used omnimechs and IIC designs.
The only thing we ever get outlining their structure is Tau on Wayside before they get ground down . . . and the implication is they are a bit understrength to be 'new & deployable' that quickly. IIRC, each cluster was 3 mech trinaries, an Elemental trinary and some Aero though they did not play a large part in the story. I do not think they even had
The 101st Attack and 250th Assault Clusters are said to be at full strength, but the 25th Strike Cluster is said to still be understrength. They had a galaxy command trinary, but IIRC Jaguars didn't usually use independent command stars for clusters but led from a trinary (or supernova) in each cluster.
Phelan took the entire 6th Jaguar Dragoons wholesale as abtakha.
Somehow that always seemed like a contrivance to boost the W-i-E. The bondsref rate must have been high...
The Wolves started converting IS factories (Tamar, Satalice, etc) to produce Clan material and Trial'd for or traded (Clint IIC fluff) for enough Clan equipment to build a new 5 cluster galaxy (Tau) in '55 positioned in the OZ without weakening the recovery of other clusters/galaxies.
I think the evidence suggests otherwise, and that the Wolves poached equipment to form their own Tau Galaxy since afterwards they were left with virtually no forces of their own in the Homeworlds. They put all their eggs in the OZ and as a result after the Refusal War they were left having to use Galaxy Command Trinaries to try and garrison homeworld assets.
A number of times in the twilight of the clans story line, clan characters were shocked that only two galaxies defended huntress. Putting aside the appalling quality of the units was two galaxies really that small of a garrison?
Honestly for an invader it wasn't that bad. Half the equipment was omnimechs or IIC gear, and compared to other invader clans it was middle of the road (Jade Falcons had two galaxies in the homeworlds, Nova Cats had three, Wolves had less than one).
Forever faithful may address this but with their fall being so sudden did the jags have additional warships which were cached and not claimed?
Not cached that we know of, but a handful of Jaguar warships weren't accounted for at the time of their annihilation (such as a Whirlwind).
That was pretty obvious with his statement to Victor Steiner-Davion during the Grand Refusal that the trinary he had opposing Victor's forces were the last remaining Smoke Jaguar warriors.
That Lincoln Osis was either aware of or had the capacity to move. We know from novels and sourcebooks that isolated pockets of Jaguar troops were in other locations or generally unaccounted for. Between their factories and other production facilities and firebases on Tranquil, Londerholm, Atreus, Kirin, Homer, Circe, Foster, Vinton, and possibly others, they had to have at least a couple clusters worth of warriors that just lacked the ships to move.
Did the jags have a strong 2nd line and solahma bench? I know some clans like sharks and cobras had systems in place to quickly replace lost warriors but I assume the jags had nothing like that?
No freeborns either right?
The Jaguars allowed warriors who failed their first trial of position to take a second one to qualify for garrison duty. And they weren't shy about sending qualified but politically inconvenient warriors to second line status, so I'd say so. Plus for all the issues they had with logistics, about every one of their second line clusters that we've been shown has sported OmniMechs (2nd Regulars, 4th Regulars, 17th Regulars, 33rd Assault, 48th Battle, 10th Regulars, I could probably go on). I'm guessing politicking and personalities got in the way of pragmatic organization of logistics.
As for freebirths, we've heard claims they never use them but also seen some evidence that they did in probably limited ways. I believe it's the "A Time of War" companion book that addresses this.
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Somehow that always seemed like a contrivance to boost the W-i-E. The bondsref rate must have been high...
I think the evidence suggests otherwise, and that the Wolves poached equipment to form their own Tau Galaxy since afterwards they were left with virtually no forces of their own in the Homeworlds. They put all their eggs in the OZ and as a result after the Refusal War they were left having to use Galaxy Command Trinaries to try and garrison homeworld assets.
lol . . . all we got from the book was 3 trinaries of mechs, and if you look at FMWC that cluster remains about that strength. The Wardens took quite a few other bondsmen from IIRC operations against 6 or 7 other clusters.
As for the second . . . not even close. The Wolves were converting Satalice at some point, b/c it is remarked they had just finished and was starting production when the Bears took the world. Tamar was producing and wrecked their logistics when the Blakists scoured it. I never said they were producing in the OZ like the Falcons ended up doing though that was partly politics on Vlad's part.
Omega Galaxy, 5 clusters, was transferred from the Homeworlds to the IS by Ulric to cover key infrastructure for the Warden set up without weakening for Tau. The fluff states that part of the reason Tau was formed was that the Wolves had not suffered the same losses as the other Invaders, so they had to put the new sibbies somewhere. The Clint IIC, part of why I mentioned it specifically, had production restarted to be sold to the Invaders by the Ravens as noted in its TRO entry- it specifically says the Wolves were buying them.
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The N matches the classic 3050 cover art and the original sculpt Timber Wolf mini. RecGuide 5 has a Timber Wolf T config matching the current art.
I have become a bit obsessed with mr. Howell and I am
Building his command star as of the fall of huntress but I am confused did he still pilot a timber full then? Or was it an executioner?
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As for the second . . . not even close. The Wolves were converting Satalice at some point, b/c it is remarked they had just finished and was starting production when the Bears took the world. Tamar was producing and wrecked their logistics when the Blakists scoured it. I never said they were producing in the OZ like the Falcons ended up doing though that was partly politics on Vlad's part.
Omega Galaxy, 5 clusters, was transferred from the Homeworlds to the IS by Ulric to cover key infrastructure for the Warden set up without weakening for Tau. The fluff states that part of the reason Tau was formed was that the Wolves had not suffered the same losses as the other Invaders, so they had to put the new sibbies somewhere. The Clint IIC, part of why I mentioned it specifically, had production restarted to be sold to the Invaders by the Ravens as noted in its TRO entry- it specifically says the Wolves were buying them.
Judging from Wolf assets in the homeworlds, it's not just close but is spot on. You're welcome to cite other Wolf galaxies and clusters in the homeworlds. Omega's transfer from the homeworlds, and the devotion of resources to create Tau, left nothing behind of note (as per FM:CC). As for their manufacturing in the OZ, I didn't say anything about it so I don't understand why you're defensive about it. Though WoR does point out they weren't doing much with it.
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I have become a bit obsessed with mr. Howell and I am
Building his command star as of the fall of huntress but I am confused did he still pilot a timber full then? Or was it an executioner?
The new Smoke Jaguar story merely confirms what was once well-founded speculation that Brandon Howell piloted a Timber Wolf on Tukayyid. Going by the TO&E in Twilight of the Clans it is most likely that he was piloting an Executioner. The only thing that leaves doubt is that they don't by-name link Brandon Howell to the Executioner commanding Alpha Star of the Shroud Keshik, but it is fairly standard to have the commander of a unit be the first Mech listed in any TO&E. In all likelihood Brandon Howell as the commander of Shroud Keshik would be piloting the Alpha 1 Executioner in Twilight of the Clans. A lot can happen in 7-8 years and many Clan warriors don't necessarily have a favorite Mech that they use throughout their careers, though some do, all evidence seems to point to Howell being the former rather than the latter.
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While on the subject of the Jaguar Howells, the recently released second short story for the Battle of Tukayyid Campaign release features Brandon Howell as the main character, piloting what looks to be a Timber Wolf N.
The N mounts MPLs and the story says he is firing ERMLs though. After reading the story, I went looking through all the T Wolf variants to see if that mech was canon. The N was the closest variant I could find but the medium lasers don't match!
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Thoughts on Two Roads Diverged?
I thought it was a good story and well written. But I didn't like it! I don't feel like it meshes well with the Ambush at Dinju Pass scenario from the Tukayyid scenario pack. That scenario is told from the point of view of Precentor Mari Rennery, who doesn't make an appearance in the story in her Guillotine. It doesn't feel like the mad dash of the Jaguar Grenadiers down the pass that the scenario describes it as. It wasn't as much of a stand up fight that the story tells. Rennery talks about hoping to be able to get one shot on Howell's Timber Wolf before he can advance past her. There is also no mention of Brau Showers in an Adder from the scenario pack. It just didn't feel right to me!
I was also wondering and hoping that the story would end with the ilKhan ending the Smoke Jaguar campaign.
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The N mounts MPLs and the story says he is firing ERMLs though. After reading the story, I went looking through all the T Wolf variants to see if that mech was canon. The N was the closest variant I could find but the medium lasers don't match!
Calling the medium lasers ER is likely a typo, because for all the rest of the story they are called medium pulse lasers, or just medium lasers, also the descriptions of the damage they do is more consistent with pulse lasers than ER lasers.
Thoughts on Two Roads Diverged?
I thought it was a good story and well written. But I didn't like it! I don't feel like it meshes well with the Ambush at Dinju Pass scenario from the Tukayyid scenario pack. That scenario is told from the point of view of Precentor Mari Rennery, who doesn't make an appearance in the story in her Guillotine. It doesn't feel like the mad dash of the Jaguar Grenadiers down the pass that the scenario describes it as. It wasn't as much of a stand up fight that the story tells. Rennery talks about hoping to be able to get one shot on Howell's Timber Wolf before he can advance past her. There is also no mention of Brau Showers in an Adder from the scenario pack. It just didn't feel right to me!
I was also wondering and hoping that the story would end with the ilKhan ending the Smoke Jaguar campaign.
I liked the story, I think it jives well with the Tukayyid Dinju Pass scenario, and answers questions I've always had about the Jaguars fight in the Dinju Pass. Given that this story is told from the opposite side from the scenario fiction, and that it is told wholly from Brandon Howell's perspective I think it's to be expected that events are going to end up recontextualized. Also, I think this is supposed to be a very focused short story about Brandon Howell's part in the Battle of Dinju Pass. I think the story you want is a longer, more extensive story than this one.
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Calling the medium lasers ER is likely a typo, because for all the rest of the story they are called medium pulse lasers, or just medium lasers, also the descriptions of the damage they do is more consistent with pulse lasers than ER lasers.
The other thing to remember is that as an omnimech, it's possible that it was modified for that battle.
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On the topic of the Jaguars, I wonder why and how Lincoln Osis was able to remain senior khan when "Blood Legacy" established that an elected khan had to appoint a replacement and act as war leader of the clans and not leader of their original clan. And why they seemingly never replaced their loremaster who was killed at Tukayyid. For a fundamentalist conservative clan it seems unusual. They had their own Khan and saKhan when Leo Showers was ilKhan, after all. I wonder if trimming characters down just kept the writing easier.
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Each IlKhan is different. Brett Andrews stayed Khan of Clan Steel Viper during his tenure. Lincoln Osis did the same. There seems to be no rule about it.
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On the topic of the Jaguars, I wonder why and how Lincoln Osis was able to remain senior khan when "Blood Legacy" established that an elected khan had to appoint a replacement and act as war leader of the clans and not leader of their original clan. And why they seemingly never replaced their loremaster who was killed at Tukayyid. For a fundamentalist conservative clan it seems unusual. They had their own Khan and saKhan when Leo Showers was ilKhan, after all. I wonder if trimming characters down just kept the writing easier.
I think it was mentioned in the series that the Smoke Jaguars did not have the time to formalize the promotion of the Sakhan and look for a new Sakahn. Remember they had to put the brakes on the war when the last Ikhan died. The Smoke Jaguars just have as many logistical issues as well as gathering enough bloodname warriors.
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Each IlKhan is different. Brett Andrews stayed Khan of Clan Steel Viper during his tenure. Lincoln Osis did the same. There seems to be no rule about it.
The novels seem to indicate there were rules about it, but Lincoln Osis disregarded them and then Brett Andrews imitated that.
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Ok so I have found some of my Twilight of the Clans materials and here is what I am thinking, keep in mind the following conditions:
• The Spirits did not interfere in the Burrock absorption and so have a much larger touman ( and bigger fleet) than would be suspected and have been seeking a way to use it for maximum gain
• This is right when Osis announces Huntress is under attack at the Council
Plan A)
• The Spirit Khans declare that Osis is unfit to lead the Clans
o In a fit of rage Osis trips and bashes his head in killing himself – I am kidding about that but please remind me how that would work?
The Spirit Khans would have to fight him and Osis would be able to choose the manner of combat?
o Either way in my timeline Osis is removed as Ilkhan
o Setting up a power vacuum and a need for a new Ilkhan in the face of the IS Invasion
• The Spirit Khans THEN declare the new SLDF a blight on their honor, ancestors etc etc ( as their founder was a descendant from the leader of the Royal Black Watch) and declare they will destroy them themselves and rid the HOMEWORLDS of them and then with a dramatic swoosh of their red cloaks they exist the chamber hall.
o The remaining clans then bicker among themselves RE: the open Ilkhan post the Jag OZ etc.
• The Spirits promptly mobilize their fleet, the Blood Guard Keshik, Alpha and Beta Galaxy and move to the Huntress system.
o This is a smash and grab operation ( to Smash the SLDF and to grab Jag stuff)
o The Spirit fleet will attempt to get there before the 2nd naval battle of Huntress happens
o When they arrive they declare on an open channel broadcast their intention to crush the invaders
In this scenario I think it’s a pretty good chance the jag fleet would actually fight their “ saviors” – Thoughts?
The Spirits will attempt to cripple and capture the Invincible Truth and parlay with the remaining jag vessels. Personally I just want to add the Liberator to my expanding Spirit fleet but that would be tricky in this scenario.
Again suggestions welcome:
• If the Spirits communicate that Osis is dead and the only chance the Jags have to survive this fight and get revenge on the IS is with the spirits would the Jag vessels join forces/stand aside?
o The Spirits then land ground forces across huntress in a similar way to how they did in the Absorption War but again relaying the message that “ Osis is dead, revenge can only come through us” trapped between the Jags and the Spirits with no fleet support how did you all see those battles going?
o Frankly I think the Spirits would have a hard – much harder time of it than they expect. Reminder they would be coming out of years and years of isolation with next to no experience with large actions like this so I would expect a high causality rate at first when they fight cornered IS troops with little coordination with the Jags.
o Once they wipe out Serpent they then trial for possession of the surviving Jag units through one on one combat with unit commanders, strip out as much as possible from the planet then hightail it out of there !
• Plan B would involve high-level coordination with a cool jag like Brandon Howell details to follow.
Bumping this scenario up again with the additional question:
If osis is dead does brandon Howell automatically become khan of the jags?
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The novels seem to indicate there were rules about it, but Lincoln Osis disregarded them and then Brett Andrews imitated that.
The rules must allow for Khans who want to retain suzrainty within their own Clan while they serve as IlKhan.
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Bumping this scenario up again with the additional question:
If osis is dead does brandon Howell automatically become khan of the jags?
Howell can call himself that if he wants to, but by that point everyone else considered the Clan dead. So he was effectively a bandit leader.
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Howell can call himself that if he wants to, but by that point everyone else considered the Clan dead. So he was effectively a bandit leader.
I think he's referring to a battlefield promotion on Tukayyid. When the Khan dies (Osis in this case), the saKhan (Brandon Howell) automatically becomes Khan until the next election by the bloodnamed.
RUSSOU Howell (aka the Jaguar) is definitely nothing but a bandit leader, but that is after the fall of the Clan.
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I think he's referring to a battlefield promotion on Tukayyid. When the Khan dies (Osis in this case), the saKhan (Brandon Howell) automatically becomes Khan until the next election by the bloodnamed.
RUSSOU Howell (aka the Jaguar) is definitely nothing but a bandit leader, but that is after the fall of the Clan.
Correct in the scenario I posed which had ilkhan osis dying right when he asked for help
From the Grand Council would Brandon Howell who was Sakhan automatically become senior khan?
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Right, that would be the normal chain of command then.
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Judging from Wolf assets in the homeworlds, it's not just close but is spot on. You're welcome to cite other Wolf galaxies and clusters in the homeworlds. Omega's transfer from the homeworlds, and the devotion of resources to create Tau, left nothing behind of note (as per FM:CC). As for their manufacturing in the OZ, I didn't say anything about it so I don't understand why you're defensive about it. Though WoR does point out they weren't doing much with it.
To answer without clogging a Jag thread-
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/clan-chatterweb/the-wolf-empire-our-khan-beat-devlin-stone-in-a-savage-wolf!-buy-savage-wolves!/msg1668259/#msg1668259 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/clan-chatterweb/the-wolf-empire-our-khan-beat-devlin-stone-in-a-savage-wolf!-buy-savage-wolves!/msg1668259/#msg1668259)
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Part of the reason Ulric Kerensky was elected IlKhan was the Crusaders, especially among the Wolves, were trying to engineer the succession of a Crusader to the position of Khan in Clan Wolf. If Ulric hadn't engineered Conal Ward's election to Loremaster and Natasha Kerensky's election to Khan the Crusader's plan likely would have worked. Certainly the precedent from Nicholas Kerensky to Ulric Kerensky seems to be that an IlKhan is not supposed to also be a Khan of a Clan at the same time. A precedent which Lincoln Osis broke.
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Point of order- Conal was already Loremaster, he was expecting to take the next step up the ladder . . . basically joining the current Crusader leaningsaKhan.
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I thought it was a good story and well written. But I didn't like it! I don't feel like it meshes well with the Ambush at Dinju Pass scenario from the Tukayyid scenario pack. That scenario is told from the point of view of Precentor Mari Rennery, who doesn't make an appearance in the story in her Guillotine. It doesn't feel like the mad dash of the Jaguar Grenadiers down the pass that the scenario describes it as. It wasn't as much of a stand up fight that the story tells. Rennery talks about hoping to be able to get one shot on Howell's Timber Wolf before he can advance past her. There is also no mention of Brau Showers in an Adder from the scenario pack. It just didn't feel right to me!
I agree on all counts. An entertaining read, but with literally just one source to work with, it seemed as though the author was doing his own thing. But then again, the Tukayyid scenario pack is many years old and soon to be replaced/updated. I had also hoped we'd see less the initial rush down the pass (which now apparently was a more methodical push) and more of the "death-or-glory assault" on Dinju Heights when 6th Dragoons botched it and the Grenadiers realized they weren't able to save them or themselves withdraw.
Still, really looking forward to the new Tukayyid book. I'm really hoping this product keeps with what Era Report:3052 had with the Grenadiers getting post-3052 rules, indicating they survived Tukayyid or were rebuilt. Hell, maybe it will clarify what the rest of Alpha was doing when the Dragoons and Grenadiers were trying to force the pass.
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Point of order- Conal was already Loremaster, he was expecting to take the next step up the ladder . . . basically joining the current Crusader leaning saKhan.
I believe you might be mistaken, according to Blood Legacy Conal Ward declined the nomination to Khan, expecting to be offered it again, but he was instead offered the position of Loremaster as "consolation" with Ulric using Conal's declination of the Khanship and election to Loremaster as an opening to nominate Natasha as Khan.
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On the topic of the Jaguars, I wonder why and how Lincoln Osis was able to remain senior khan when "Blood Legacy" established that an elected khan had to appoint a replacement and act as war leader of the clans and not leader of their original clan. And why they seemingly never replaced their loremaster who was killed at Tukayyid. For a fundamentalist conservative clan it seems unusual. They had their own Khan and saKhan when Leo Showers was ilKhan, after all. I wonder if trimming characters down just kept the writing easier.
Right? From a story POV this served to highlight Osis habit of cronism and micro management in his clan but also served to weaken the flexibility of the Jags.
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Ego . . . just highlighting the ego and through that micromanagement. It is part of why Vlad said he had not really been acting as ilKhan IIRC.
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In my research on the fall of the jags I have become a bit obsessed with the jaguars heart unit of old timers who came out of retirement to defend huntress. It seems they were tasked to hunt down the IS forces in the swamps and died there. Is that correct?
The star colonel in charge of the unit thought it was pretty dumb for them to be used to hunt down a broken enemy.
Where could they have been better used?
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In my research on the fall of the jags I have become a bit obsessed with the jaguars heart unit of old timers who came out of retirement to defend huntress. It seems they were tasked to hunt down the IS forces in the swamps and died there. Is that correct?
Yes, they were hunting down the South Army Group and stuck in that task until Victor arrived with reinforcements and staged a combat drop on them with units like the 10th Lyran Guards. They probably all fought to the death, based on Archer Christifori's memories of the battle.
Where could they have been better used?
They could have pulled back to refit and reorganize. Myriad Jaguar units had been mixed up or spread all over the place by the initial invasion by Task Force Serpent, and they needed to reorganize the survivors. But Lincoln Osis and Hang Mehta, the top commanders on the scene respectively, were more obsessed with wasteful driving attacks on the broken remnants of Serpent. The North Army Group *maybe* was a threat, but they could have maintained pressure without the wasteful attacks. Star Colonel Wager of the Jaguar's Heart was right about the Dhuan swamp attack; he knew the swamp and like all Jaguars had trained there. There was nothing for Serpent forces to eat and they'd either come out to fight or die, while suffering attrition in the meantime.
Of course ultimately it makes no difference, Wager didn't know that Vic and company weren't far out.
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Yes, they were hunting down the South Army Group and stuck in that task until Victor arrived with reinforcements and staged a combat drop on them with units like the 10th Lyran Guards. They probably all fought to the death, based on Archer Christifori's memories of the battle.
They could have pulled back to refit and reorganize. Myriad Jaguar units had been mixed up or spread all over the place by the initial invasion by Task Force Serpent, and they needed to reorganize the survivors. But Lincoln Osis and Hang Mehta, the top commanders on the scene respectively, were more obsessed with wasteful driving attacks on the broken remnants of Serpent. The North Army Group *maybe* was a threat, but they could have maintained pressure without the wasteful attacks. Star Colonel Wager of the Jaguar's Heart was right about the Dhuan swamp attack; he knew the swamp and like all Jaguars had trained there. There was nothing for Serpent forces to eat and they'd either come out to fight or die, while suffering attrition in the meantime.
Of course ultimately it makes no difference, Wager didn't know that Vic and company weren't far out.
Right thank you for the reminder about archer and the 10th! I recall that being very well written. Need to dig that up again..
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Yes, they were hunting down the South Army Group and stuck in that task until Victor arrived with reinforcements and staged a combat drop on them with units like the 10th Lyran Guards. They probably all fought to the death, based on Archer Christifori's memories of the battle.
They could have pulled back to refit and reorganize. Myriad Jaguar units had been mixed up or spread all over the place by the initial invasion by Task Force Serpent, and they needed to reorganize the survivors. But Lincoln Osis and Hang Mehta, the top commanders on the scene respectively, were more obsessed with wasteful driving attacks on the broken remnants of Serpent. The North Army Group *maybe* was a threat, but they could have maintained pressure without the wasteful attacks. Star Colonel Wager of the Jaguar's Heart was right about the Dhuan swamp attack; he knew the swamp and like all Jaguars had trained there. There was nothing for Serpent forces to eat and they'd either come out to fight or die, while suffering attrition in the meantime.
Of course ultimately it makes no difference, Wager didn't know that Vic and company weren't far out.
Refresh my memory all but due to the quick response of the jag counter attack on huntress the initial Serpent forces do not actually have much time to destroy the various factories and depots before the final victory correct? If so wouldn’t the jags have been better served by reclaiming and garrisoning the factories they could have cranked out units right into the battle line for dispossessed warriors. The same could have been done for whatever ammo depots were still flush with supplies. Serpent would have had to bombard from orbit to get them which is something Wilson was very reluctant to do.
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No, the wrecked several pretty thoroughly- to the point of collapsing the factory buildings by demo or mech stomping. Relevant sections would be Sharon Byron (b/c she is stealing info/demos for Kathy) and Masters IIRC.
The Warhawk facility apparently had NOT been wrecked, but that is where the reserve formations were positioned and the Scorpions took it before Masters could get around to it as SL governor.
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That would have been smart, but the Jaguars were not the "let's be smart and do things strategically Clan." They were the "you scream and you leap: keep attacking until you win or you die Clan."
While that makes cartoon villains it also makes them fun fall guys too
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Wait a minute... if Corbett had headed the recall order to go to huntress that def would have been enough to quash serpent. With that success would the clans have tried to absorb the jags rather them let them die?
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Wait a minute... if Corbett had headed the recall order to go to huntress that def would have been enough to quash serpent. With that success would the clans have tried to absorb the jags rather them let them die?
IF Corbett had headed back to Huntress, then the units that were headed to Tranquil would also likely head to Huntress.
The SLDF would likely have been crushed
The Jags would have had enough forces concentrated to deter opportunists.
The Jags would repair their SDS system. This is reported not just as a SDS system, but a Reagan SDS system.
Beneath this shield, the Jags would have their choice of salvage. Jag techs also have a very good reputation. They might be IS Mechs but thet'd be Mechs.
The Jags, with all this, would likely survive but be knocked back and would lose some outlying territories but in the short term at least they'd be left alone. With a Reagan system in operation, few Clans would have the will to assault Huntress and would hold off pending a formal declaration of some sort.
An Absorption MIGHT still be called but it would go through the official process rather than the free for all which did occur.
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Which reminds me, just where did the Clans, in general, get their SDS from?
Would it be several M-3 Drones ( Pentagon ) with maybe a M-9 ( Pavise ) base?
We do know that there is a M-10 Hughes, of which the Wolf's Dragoon's Hephaestus station might be a clone.
TT
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Which reminds me, just where did the Clans, in general, get their SDS from?
Would it be several M-3 Drones ( Pentagon ) with maybe a M-9 ( Pavise ) base?
We do know that there is a M-10 Hughes, of which the Wolf's Dragoon's Hephaestus station might be a clone.
TT
I always wondered that too as it was implied to be enough to wreck TFS fleet
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It has to be from the decommissioned vessels that were scrapped from the modification of many of the SLDF Carracks to the (new) Merchant Carrack.
How else would any SDS be made?
Clans have, for one thing, in common : they hated needless waste.
And they never did build any capital weapons!
TT
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Which reminds me, just where did the Clans, in general, get their SDS from?
Most Clan SDS systems appear to be of the surface to orbital battery type. The Jaguars SDS system was noticeable in that it was reported as a Reagan SDS system which is far more capable.
Two possibilities...1. The reports of a Reagan system were wrong. I suspect if CGL were asked,this would be the approach taken or 2...the Jaguars did have a Reagan SDS system, and being fair...that would fit their style and character, their technological expertise and, as they had their own shipyards and designers, within their capabilities.
Either way, the answer would be the Clans built their own.
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It has to be from the decommissioned vessels that were scrapped from the modification of many of the SLDF Carracks to the (new) Merchant Carrack.
How else would any SDS be made?
Clans have, for one thing, in common : they hated needless waste.
And they never did build any capital weapons!
TT
With the shifts their culture made re: what is right and honorable in war would most of these SDS have been built Pre Klondike or shortly into the golden century. I could see a desire to maintain or improve on an existing system but not building a whole new thing
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I believe that protos were included in the listing of Jaguar forces that fought on Huntress in Twilight of the Clans.
Confirmation that they were all KIA? No nothing of the sort exists. Was attrition among them horrible? Yes, aside from the fact they were Jags fighting in defense of their homeworld, they were also Clan trueborns who had been facing relegation to the lower castes.
I Am curious about the huntress proto forces while we can allow speculate, how much did Howell know about the program it’s size etc?
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I've never seen any indication that the Jaguar protomech program was being kept a secret from Howell.
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If we are talking about 'what if' scenarios...
What if The Second Star League over reached itself? I always thought the main reason Operation Revival failed is because the Clans were divided. It would be fittingly ironic if The Second Star League try to wipe out the clans altogether only to unite the Clans against them and effectively destroy the Warden cause by showing the IS has no intention of coexisting with the clans.
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If we are talking about 'what if' scenarios...
What if The Second Star League over reached itself? I always thought the main reason Operation Revival failed is because the Clans were divided. It would be fittingly ironic if The Second Star League try to wipe out the clans altogether only to unite the Clans against them and effectively destroy the Warden cause by showing the IS has no intention of coexisting with the clans.
Yeah. It wouldn't be too hard for that to happen. What if a non-Smoke Jaguar was IlKhan? It wouldn't seem selfish to rally the Clans against the "2nd" Star League and could have actually united the Clans. Particularly if s/he was canny enough to claim this was a violation of the truce and voided Tukayidd.
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Yeah. It wouldn't be too hard for that to happen. What if a non-Smoke Jaguar was IlKhan? It wouldn't seem selfish to rally the Clans against the "2nd" Star League and could have actually united the Clans. Particularly if s/he was canny enough to claim this was a violation of the truce and voided Tukayidd.
I always wondered why the attack on the jags was not considered a breach of the tukkayid truce..
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I always wondered why the attack on the jags was not considered a breach of the tukkayid truce..
Yeah, when I first read about Bulldog and Serpent I assumed it was after the 15 year period and the IS struck first because they were ready before the clans. Maybe when the Clans were working out the terms of the trial they agreed to stop attacking but forgot to ask the IS wouldn't attack either?
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When the truce was negotiated, the Clans were far too arrogant to believe that there was even a possibility that the Inner Sphere would try launching their own invasion against the Clans, so they didn't include any provisions against it.
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The thing to remember, to me, is that the Clan way dictated that the Jaguars HAD to go it alone. What the Jags saw as the Wolves (and Falcons) abandoning them to their fates, 'betraying' them, was merely the Clans practicing their rules. If you can't take on an enemy coming at you like this, you're too weak to contribute to the next generation of Kerensky's children- whether that be a warrior failing, or even an entire Clan. For the Jaguars to even admit wanting help was a massive loss of face. Had another Clan jumped in, really you'd have a situation not unlike the Burrock absorption later- in a matter between two forces, a third party interfered, a massive violation of Clan law- or at the very minimum, an admission that one side of the conflict is too weak to win without needing assistance, which might be even worse. In this case, even if Serpent is defeated, the Jaguars are doomed- someone is going to declare an Absorption or some such over their conduct, and they- and the Clan that helped them- are tainted and weak in the eyes of their comrades.
Rambling, I know, but just based on the Clan's own rules the Jags faced their fate and failed- a far better fate than succeeding through dezgra.
I mean it was a lot deeper than that, a clan could have assisted them with some political maneuvering, there are ways to bargain with another clan to step into a situation and render aid. Lincoln Osis tried a few of them, but the Clans, frankly, hated Jaguar as much the InnerSphere did. They were too radical, too cruel, and threatened the whole war effort in their methods. So it wasn't that a clan couldn't have helped or shirked their rules outright (wouldn't be the first time) but they simply wouldn't.
Wolf would never have rendered aid due to the hellish treatment of civilians, and likewise Ghost Bear and Jade Falcon didn't approve of this treatment of the civilian populace. Beyond that Osis had butted heads with Marthe Pryde and ruined her chance as ilKhan or at least having a coalition lead by a more co-operative ilKhan. Diamond Sharks were crushed in the fighting, Viper lost its Khan, and the homeworld clans were disgusted with the occupation clans because of the loss at Tukauyid. They likely saw it as a failed clan getting its just desserts.
In the end no one outside of Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, and Diamond Shark really seemed to realize that the InnerSphere could threaten the homeworlds in the first place. But the loss of the Jaguars would be one of the best ways for the occupation clans to gain some territory and much needing infrastructure... and we saw that happen with the Jags' occupation zone being gobbled up pretty much isntantly since Bulldog couldn't hope to hold that territory, and the InnerSphere retreated behind the Tukkayid line.
I always wondered why the attack on the jags was not considered a breach of the tukkayid truce..
The clans are VERY literal in their thinking, very, very plain text. The truce is that no Clan would attack over the line... the Clans laughed at this because they figured there'd be no way they'd lose so they said sure. Even the more cautious clans like Wolf or the Ghost Bears probably didn't think they'd lose, and even if they did, no one was considering a counter attack to be viable on an occupation zone. Oops.
Yeah. It wouldn't be too hard for that to happen. What if a non-Smoke Jaguar was IlKhan? It wouldn't seem selfish to rally the Clans against the "2nd" Star League and could have actually united the Clans. Particularly if s/he was canny enough to claim this was a violation of the truce and voided Tukayidd.
That's a good question, if it was Marthe or someone more diplomatically acceptable (Ghost Bears for example) there might have been an effort to stop Audacity but we don't know... what that would really look like. I imagine after the first losses if another ilKhan was at the helm they could have declared an absorption and then assumed the Jaguar territory and holdings. This would have just absolutely crushed Audacity.
But Jaguar earned how hated they were among the clans and the InnerSphere alike. Remember this is all pre-dark age, so the clans were actually kind of human. Inhuman acts like the Jaguars committed were not looked kindly upon.
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I mean it was a lot deeper than that, a clan could have assisted them with some political maneuvering, there are ways to bargain with another clan to step into a situation and render aid. Lincoln Osis tried a few of them, but the Clans, frankly, hated Jaguar as much the InnerSphere did. They were too radical, too cruel, and threatened the whole war effort in their methods. So it wasn't that a clan couldn't have helped or shirked their rules outright (wouldn't be the first time) but they simply wouldn't.
Wolf would never have rendered aid due to the hellish treatment of civilians, and likewise Ghost Bear and Jade Falcon didn't approve of this treatment of the civilian populace. Beyond that Osis had butted heads with Marthe Pryde and ruined her chance as ilKhan or at least having a coalition lead by a more co-operative ilKhan. Diamond Sharks were crushed in the fighting, Viper lost its Khan, and the homeworld clans were disgusted with the occupation clans because of the loss at Tukauyid. They likely saw it as a failed clan getting its just desserts.
"You know, Niki, every now and then it helps if people like you."
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"You know, Niki, every now and then it helps if people like you."
Haha yeah, absolutely. The Clans had a lot more politics than a lot of people realize, coalitions between Crusaders and Wardens even happened, internal politics etc... Jaguars were like the Mandrels, everyone hated them.
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Nah. The Jags liked the Jags at least.
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Trent disagrees with that assessment. 8)
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Trent disagrees with that assessment. 8)
Trent was afflicted with PTSD induced paranoid delusions stoked, maybe even created by, a ComStar agent.
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Exodus Road is probably the best Clan novel, and it mirrors the history of actual infamous historical traitors like Benedict Arnold almost perfectly in that it wasn't a moral disillusionment that motivated him but grievance over a series of real or perceived personal slights. Nevertheless there's a real pathos in seeing a man turn on his own people, but since it's the Jags you don't have to feel too bad.
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Exodus Road is probably the best Clan novel, and it mirrors the history of actual infamous historical traitors like Benedict Arnold almost perfectly in that it wasn't a moral disillusionment that motivated him but grievance over a series of real or perceived personal slights. Nevertheless there's a real pathos in seeing a man turn on his own people, but since it's the Jags you don't have to feel too bad.
Agreed exodus road is great!
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Agreed exodus road is great!
But in the end, he just ends up whining about statues...
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Exodus Road was awesome, I like Trent. But yeah the Smoke Jaguars were at least more internally functional than the FIre Mandrels haha, that's true. That's one faction I just, didn't like too much because it was too unrealistically handled.
My favourite book though was Falcon Rising but Exodus Road definitely is up there. There's another I often forget the name of... it had a story about forged paintings and a conspiracy being smuggled in the paintings. I was reading it and people started shooting at us so I kind of lost it in the chaos. That was another one of my favourites but I can't remember the name.
But yeah I just can't see Jaguars being saved, as the man said above! Pays to have friends. The only way I could see it is if they offered up either their territory to a homeworld clan or willingly offered to be absorbed and then splinter off Wolf to Jade Wolf back to Wolf style. But I couldn't see the remainder from that surviving very long before someone comes hunting them.
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Precisely! What are they going to do in the ilClan era, now that they have been revived from the ash heap of history?
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They'll either return to said ash heap when no longer useful or *shudder* somehow "save" the Clans. I vote for the first option.
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They'll either return to said ash heap when no longer useful or *shudder* somehow "save" the Clans. I vote for the first option.
They aren't useful now. They were brought back for very dubious "reasons"
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They aren't useful now. They were brought back for very dubious "reasons"
I call them going mercenary because of the Wolves and Falcons betrayal during “Operation Bulldog” hired by anyone with a beef with the Wolf Empire. Or let them last longer than ten minutes on their first mission.
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I call them going mercenary because of the Wolves and Falcons betrayal during “Operation Bulldog” hired by anyone with a beef with the Wolf Empire. Or let them last longer than ten minutes on their first mission.
True, they are kind of "rebels" after all...
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They aren't useful now. They were brought back for very dubious "reasons"
Agreed. But as they're here now, their use appears to be potential voting block for Alaric. Until they stab him in the back and take over, thus "winning" and saving the Clans, and by extension, the Inner Sphere.
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Agreed. But as they're here now, their use appears to be potential voting block for Alaric. Until they stab him in the back and take over, thus "winning" and saving the Clans, and by extension, the Inner Sphere.
Excuse me, I just vomited in my mouth a little.
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Turtle Bay for everyone!
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Excuse me, I just vomited in my mouth a little.
I'm not saying I like it, I could just see it being done... if certain party's are given free rein.
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I'm not saying I like it, I could just see it being done... if certain party's are given free rein.
Which also makes me vomit in my mouth. ;)
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Like this?
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Like this?
Thanks, Jaim. I was just about to eat... xp
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Then my work here is done 8)
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Wait a minute... if Corbett had headed the recall order to go to huntress that def would have been enough to quash serpent. With that success would the clans have tried to absorb the jags rather them let them die?
IIRC Corbett had maybe two mixed clusters of troops - the 9th Jaguar Cavaliers, Jaguar's Spirit Keshik, and the Tranquil garrison troops (so much for the idea all their garrison warriors were on Huntress). It might have been enough to end the fight for Huntress early, but they still would have been annihilated by multiple elite regiments Vic and company led to relieve Serpent.
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IIRC Corbett had maybe two mixed clusters of troops - the 9th Jaguar Cavaliers, Jaguar's Spirit Keshik, and the Tranquil garrison troops (so much for the idea all their garrison warriors were on Huntress). It might have been enough to end the fight for Huntress early, but they still would have been annihilated by multiple elite regiments Vic and company led to relieve Serpent.
Does camo specs have examples of those units?
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The Cavaliers and Keshik are from Alpha Galaxy, so I'd use Alpha's camo. https://camospecs.com/unit/alpha-galaxy-12/ (https://camospecs.com/unit/alpha-galaxy-12/) The garrison troops have no specified Galaxy, so I'd go with generic Jag camo, or primer grey.
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The Cavaliers and Keshik are from Alpha Galaxy, so I'd use Alpha's camo. https://camospecs.com/unit/alpha-galaxy-12/ (https://camospecs.com/unit/alpha-galaxy-12/) The garrison troops have no specified Galaxy, so I'd go with generic Jag camo, or primer grey.
Got it thanks! I have accidentally collected a lot of jags... so I am looking to break up all that grey
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Ok, on the Falcon Try Harder page I asked what "Jade Falcon" mech would you like to use if you fought on Tukayyid.
So, as a Smoke Jaguar what would your prefer ride be:
Dire Wolf, Warhawk, Mad Dog, Ebon Jaguar, Stormcrow, Artic Cheetah, Mist Lynx.
(I think the Maddog is a Ghost Bear/Smoke Jaguar mech and I don't know if the Shadow Cat should be included here.)
My preference right now would be the Stormcrow. But I would consider an Ebon Jaguar.
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My MW-2 RPG character was actually in a WarHawk for Tukayyid, so I guess I should pick that, but that was a random die roll.
If I could choose, it would depend on the unit profile, but I'd go Dire Wolf, MadDog, or ArcticCheetah based on mission/unit needs.
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Kingfisher.
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So, as a Smoke Jaguar what would your prefer ride be:
Dire Wolf, Warhawk, Mad Dog, Ebon Jaguar, Stormcrow, Artic Cheetah, Mist Lynx.
(I think the Maddog is a Ghost Bear/Smoke Jaguar mech and I don't know if the Shadow Cat should be included here.)
My preference right now would be the Stormcrow. But I would consider an Ebon Jaguar.
Either a Warhawk or Dire Wolf. The Warhawk is more patriotic being a purely Smoke Jaguar design, whereas the Dire Wolf has some wolf blood in it. But the Dire Wolf is the meanest Clan-built 100-ton walking gun bag in existence, which perfectly fits the Smoke Jaguar's penchant for violence.
I'm a little surprised the Jaguars never renamed the Dire Wolf. Perhaps they were somewhat honoring its origin Clan, even though they have the Mad Dog to insult Clan Wolf? I'm wondering what they would've named it if any of them thought of one... Maybe another insult to Clan Wolf instead like Dog Catcher, Pelt Trader, or Elizabethan Collar (call it the "Liz Collar" or "Cone of Shame" for less syllables :D).
(Gosh I just suck at renaming canon 'mechs xp)
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Unlike the Timber Wolf, the Jags actually respected the Dire Wolf. If the were going to rename it, it probably would have been some sort of cat theme, like Sabertooth.
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"Smoke Jaguar".
Though admittedly probably not agile and mobile enough for that name.
Interesting how few Clans name 'Mechs directly after themselves.
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Well, the Clans are pretty superstitious. Don't want to risk having the first battle with the brand new totem mech that's named after your Clan to be a total disaster.
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Well, the Clans are pretty superstitious. Don't want to risk having the first battle with the brand new totem mech that's named after your Clan to be a total disaster.
Uh, i never got an impression like this. (And didn't stop the Nova Cats.)
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Look at all the instances of a Clan rejecting a mech after one failure. And how many mechs besides the Nova Cats have actually named a totem mech directly after the Clan?
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Look at all the instances of a Clan rejecting a mech after one failure.
After one?
None?
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Unlike the Timber Wolf, the Jags actually respected the Dire Wolf. If the were going to rename it, it probably would have been some sort of cat theme, like Sabertooth.
Hey, I can go for a Sabertooth, Draconis Combine code name Daishi :thumbsup:
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If the were going to rename it, it probably would have been some sort of cat theme, like Sabertooth.
As a Wolf player, I can really respect that name, very suitable, big, stocky, slow cat that will take down any prey with its giant teeth (guns).
I recall the fanon design "Iron Cheetah" from that mech magazine which used a 400XL.
I think my favorite alternative would be a spin off on that name however & copy a smaller/less known band (and movie quote) & call it a "Steel Panther"
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I recall the fanon design "Iron Cheetah" from that mech magazine which used a 400XL.
I so wish the Iron Cheetah design was canon. It was used to demonstrate the Heavy Metal Pro software's TRO output. Considering the other technological marvels they've made, I don't think there's a reason they couldn't have been able to make such a machine.
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So, as a Smoke Jaguar what would your prefer ride be:
Dire Wolf, Warhawk, Mad Dog, Ebon Jaguar, Stormcrow, Artic Cheetah, Mist Lynx.
(I think the Maddog is a Ghost Bear/Smoke Jaguar mech and I don't know if the Shadow Cat should be included here.)
My preference right now would be the Stormcrow. But I would consider an Ebon Jaguar.
I'm of the same mind, either a Stormcrow or an Ebon Jaguar. Both have the speed, armor, and firepower to have a place in all but the most specialized Stars, to serve as the anvils of lighter Stars or the hammers of heavier Stars. It also helps that both have some decent-to-great energy configs, but if I used those some arrogant Sibbie would probably challenge me for my position due to my unClan-like caution... xp
The Warhawk is more patriotic being a purely Smoke Jaguar design, whereas the Dire Wolf has some wolf blood in it.
Some Wolf blood in it, plenty more on it. >:D Actually, I don't think it's said the Jaguars changed anything about the Dire Wolf, other than maybe some maker's marks on components. It was still on the drawing boards when the Jaguars heard of it and decided they wanted it. But it would be interesting how much of such an "original" Dire Wolf as envisioned by it's creators survived into what marched off the Huntress line in 3010. Also, that could make a great story for how the Jaguars learned of a new Wolf OmniMech in the works, some Homeworld intrigue or maybe a different Clan altogether with an axe to grind with the Wolves using the Jags as a literal cat's paw.
I recall the fanon design "Iron Cheetah" from that mech magazine which used a 400XL.
Wow, forgot all about that one! The Dire Wolf with the front of the Timber Wolf torso in place of the bullet cockpit, right? I bet that would look fantastic with the new plastic minis...
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IIRC Corbett had maybe two mixed clusters of troops - the 9th Jaguar Cavaliers, Jaguar's Spirit Keshik, and the Tranquil garrison troops (so much for the idea all their garrison warriors were on Huntress). It might have been enough to end the fight for Huntress early, but they still would have been annihilated by multiple elite regiments Vic and company led to relieve Serpent.
But with the early relief force the SDS system could have been turned back on right?
Did Corbett have any warship support I don’t recall?
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The jag garrison was noted to have only a small handful of “ aging” aerospace fighters those likely would have been SL vintage?
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They could also be Golden Century designs.
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They could also be Golden Century designs.
Oh good point! I will check my TRO
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It's looking like the Iron Cheetah is going to be canon now :o
(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/thumb/2/25/Recog-Guide-Cover-19-%28Cover%29.jpg/775px-axuxor0ytjtpmgf56mexhyqftdc1hve.jpg?timestamp=20210904014835)
Pure speculation on my part but I can't imagine what else that would be! Its visible loadout matches the configuration presented on the HMP website, just with some weapons location changes.
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Now that the Jags are officially back, they no longer need to be saved, I reckon. It's a redemption story where the block bully is resurrected as a peon of Clan Wolf...
Should we make a Kill the Jags thread now?
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Should we make a Kill the Jags thread now?
Yes, definitely, let's do that.
Fidelis were moderately interesting, resurrected Jags not so much.
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Yes, definitely, let's do that.
Fidelis were moderately interesting, resurrected Jags not so much.
Easy enough to change the title in replies!
So what makes the return of CSJ "not so interesting" compared to the Fiddles?
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Should we make a Kill the Jags thread now?
;D
"I'm getting better! I feel fine! I feel happy!"
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So what makes the return of CSJ "not so interesting" compared to the Fiddles?
The Fidelis used Clan culture as a stepping stone, as a basis. Then improved upon it, made themselves more humane, more relatable, more flexible and adaptable. It was a story of perseverance, not being beholden to the past, being better than you used to be. Of evolution.
So far (from what we've seen in HotW) the resurrected Jags are trying to fit themselves back into a proper Clan mould. We've got plenty of that. It's undoing change and evolution for... what? To 'rise again'? No thanks. Boring and questionable.
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It's looking like the Iron Cheetah is going to be canon now :o
(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/thumb/2/25/Recog-Guide-Cover-19-%28Cover%29.jpg/775px-axuxor0ytjtpmgf56mexhyqftdc1hve.jpg?timestamp=20210904014835)
Pure speculation on my part but I can't imagine what else that would be! Its visible loadout matches the configuration presented on the HMP website, just with some weapons location changes.
What's it got? Two ER PPCs, LRM-15, AMS, and a pair of lasers and either an LB-10X or a Gauss Rifle?
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The Fidelis used Clan culture as a stepping stone, as a basis. Then improved upon it, made themselves more humane, more relatable, more flexible and adaptable. It was a story of perseverance, not being beholden to the past, being better than you used to be. Of evolution.
So far (from what we've seen in HotW) the resurrected Jags are trying to fit themselves back into a proper Clan mould. We've got plenty of that. It's undoing change and evolution for... what? To 'rise again'? No thanks. Boring and questionable.
We don’t know how much the Smoke Jaguar culture will be reborn all we know is the name is more pronounceable. Besides some might go rogue and the Clan Protectorate will be home to the true children of the Smoke Jaguars and Nova Cats.
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That looks very D-Wolf to me other than the over the top shelf cowling.
Not quite TomaHawk/-II-ish either.
Is that for sure an Iron Cheetah or is that just a bit of a variant drawing for one of the above?
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The Daishi's already been in the Rec Guides and there's no reason for the Tomahawk/Tomahawk II to be in them.
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What's it got? Two ER PPCs, LRM-15, AMS, and a pair of lasers and either an LB-10X or a Gauss Rifle?
Yes, though it's supposed to be a Gauss rifle and not an LBX.
The design's creator has the fluff and some more configurations here: http://www.heavymetalpro.com/ironcheetah.html (http://www.heavymetalpro.com/ironcheetah.html)
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Oops, double-post, but I'll make it useful anyway:
Is that for sure an Iron Cheetah or is that just a bit of a variant drawing for one of the above?
I'm pretty sure it is. CT and feet of a Timber Wolf, legs, arms, and side torsos of a Dire Wolf or Warhawk. How appropriate for this to be an actual Clan Smoke Jaguar and Clan Wolf mishmash of designs, considering the Wolves resurrected the Jags :D
To take it deeper, the Timber Wolf is a Clan Wolf design. The Warhawk is a Clan Smoke Jaguar design. The Dire Wolf was an unwilling team effort between the Wolves and Jaguars (Trials of Possession do that I guess!).
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When reviewing the adhoc units the jags threw into the huntress battle I had a question about codexs. How often are they updated? For example the semi retired warriors which formed the Jaguars heart unit did their codex all get a great bump due to their heroism?
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When reviewing the adhoc units the jags threw into the huntress battle I had a question about codexs. How often are they updated? For example the semi retired warriors which formed the Jaguars heart unit did their codex all get a great bump due to their heroism?
Probably not. There was really no one left to update them.
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Probably not. There was really no one left to update them.
When and who updated them? Is it the star commander or colonel? How long is an entry?
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It's nice to see the Iron Cheetah become cannon after so many years, the tie in with the pilot write-up was fitting as well. I was hoping for more than 1 new configuration though :'(.
I wonder when the Jags will get some RAT's and a TO&E overview in the future. Maybe Empire Alone? But that seems more likely to focus on the old wolf empire and the FWL.
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I would not bet on Empire Alone getting Jaguar info.
Once we get something that focuses on the CapCon-Terra front, that might be the place. Might.
But even so, the Jaguars number too few to be a truly effective fighting force yet. They don't really have territory, manufacturing capabilities, anything.
I would not expect anything about them until 3155 earliest, not really. EDIT Actually, probably should say 3175. Assuming first sibkos are created quickly, within few years from 3151, and assuming the Smoke Jaguars don't test cadets early, the first new Clan warriors would be ready circa 3170s.
That said, it is currently somewhat unclear just how large the newborn Clan Smoke Jaguar is. Implicitly there's no more than a Cluster at most, i think. The Smoke Jags will be dependent on the ilClan providing them stuff for now.
EDIT Looks like the Fidelis numbered around 100 plus trainees. Let's say 150 total. And implicitly not all have claim to Smoke Jaguar heritages.
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I've never seen any indication that the Jaguar protomech program was being kept a secret from Howell.
But it was a secret from osis?
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I would not bet on Empire Alone getting Jaguar info.
Once we get something that focuses on the CapCon-Terra front, that might be the place. Might.
But even so, the Jaguars number too few to be a truly effective fighting force yet. They don't really have territory, manufacturing capabilities, anything.
I would not expect anything about them until 3155 earliest, not really. EDIT Actually, probably should say 3175. Assuming first sibkos are created quickly, within few years from 3151, and assuming the Smoke Jaguars don't test cadets early, the first new Clan warriors would be ready circa 3170s.
That said, it is currently somewhat unclear just how large the newborn Clan Smoke Jaguar is. Implicitly there's no more than a Cluster at most, i think. The Smoke Jags will be dependent on the ilClan providing them stuff for now.
EDIT Looks like the Fidelis numbered around 100 plus trainees. Let's say 150 total. And implicitly not all have claim to Smoke Jaguar heritages.
Well reading all the novellas closely shows they have their own manufacturing capacity, particularly in Surrender Your Dreams. They manufactured their own designs and heavily customized them. They also train more warriors and only had some of their available forces available to the republic at any given time. One century (100 warriors was always on call to the Republic), but they had more warriors. The iron wombs have been up and running, I think is in the text in Rock of the Republic (not 100% on that). Both the current Kahn and SaKahn are from iron wombs, Paul Moon was past child bearing age and the Howell is related to Trent (based on the Ill Clan text).
I'm not thinking they will be a huge force, but they should have enough for a couple/several clusters.
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I don't recall anything about the books involving Fidelis. Never liked Surrender Your Dreams due to its weird chronology, had massive issues following the plot. And later books involving them, forgot all already, wasn't invested in them in any way.
Dunno why but while i didn't care for the Fidelis, the Jags getting back makes them more interesting. Or, at least interesting in that they have potential to become something new and interesting.
I did forget that the Fidelis did use sibkos already. But they will need to expand the system considerably, as it seems the Fidelis were rather small organization even compared to the Exile Wolves and Nova Cats. That requires sufficient resources and people though.
As for manufacturing capability, what's on New Earth? Assuming the new Smoke Jaguars get to keep that as their home base. There used to be a NETC plant certainly, but is it still around?
EDIT Ah, at least the Kheper was made on New Earth. So there's a new factory. The Jags will have some manufacturing base, but figure it'll take some time to upgrade to fully ClanTech, ignoring their propensity for customizing and improving equipment.
EDIT and Uraeus. Kinda nice, like both 'Mechs. Inner Sphere-tech based Jaguar unit could be fun project.
For Clusters, think average Cluster falls into 75 'Mech range at most? Somewhere between Spheroid Battalions and Regiments.
If they indeed have more warriors than just the 100 serving the Republic, perhaps upper limit of 3 Clusters (a small Galaxy), somewhere between 150-225 'Mechs, would that make sense?
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Really hoping the Jags in 3151 get access to 'traditional' Jag omnis like the Mist Lynx/Arctic Cheetah, Stormcrow, Mad Dog, Warhawk, and Dire Wolf (Maybe Iron Cheetah instead?).
Would love to be able to use my Clan Invasion Smoke Jaguar Galaxy for the current, ilClan era Smoke Jaguars. Because I'm lazy!
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Don't get me wrong, traditional 'Mechs are fine. But i also think them having access to lower tech would be fun, makes for a different and interesting thing.
Of Homeworld Clans, i think the ones i was most interested in were the Steel Vipers (due the fact they had relatively large amounts of conventional infantry), and the Blood Spirits due to their resource-poor nature meaning they focused on SFE and generally "lower tech" designs than the other Clans.
So a Spheroid Clan going for heavily for Spheroid designs for a time being would be interesting.
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As for manufacturing capability, what's on New Earth? Assuming the new Smoke Jaguars get to keep that as their home base. There used to be a NETC plant certainly, but is it still around?
EDIT Ah, at least the Kheper was made on New Earth. So there's a new factory. The Jags will have some manufacturing base, but figure it'll take some time to upgrade to fully ClanTech, ignoring their propensity for customizing and improving equipment.
EDIT and Uraeus. Kinda nice, like both 'Mechs. Inner Sphere-tech based Jaguar unit could be fun project.
For Clusters, think average Cluster falls into 75 'Mech range at most? Somewhere between Spheroid Battalions and Regiments.
If they indeed have more warriors than just the 100 serving the Republic, perhaps upper limit of 3 Clusters (a small Galaxy), somewhere between 150-225 'Mechs, would that make sense?
Yeah that sounds likely. I'm thinking the manufacturing capacity was enough to build small volumes of their chosen mechs, but not enough to pump out a ton of units. If I recall correctly they had an island / continent to themselves with all their facilities there. Most of what we have is vague information so the writers can pretty much fill in the blanks on capacity / size etc. whenever they want to flesh it out in the timeline.
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But it was a secret from osis?
Doubtful, unless he'd just missed the report about the project.
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As for manufacturing capability, what's on New Earth? Assuming the new Smoke Jaguars get to keep that as their home base. There used to be a NETC plant certainly, but is it still around?
EDIT Ah, at least the Kheper was made on New Earth. So there's a new factory. The Jags will have some manufacturing base, but figure it'll take some time to upgrade to fully ClanTech, ignoring their propensity for customizing and improving equipment.
EDIT and Uraeus. Kinda nice, like both 'Mechs. Inner Sphere-tech based Jaguar unit could be fun project.
Yeah that sounds likely. I'm thinking the manufacturing capacity was enough to build small volumes of their chosen mechs, but not enough to pump out a ton of units. If I recall correctly they had an island / continent to themselves with all their facilities there. Most of what we have is vague information so the writers can pretty much fill in the blanks on capacity / size etc. whenever they want to flesh it out in the timeline.
My MW1E campaign was based out of New Earth back in the 80/90s
TPTB Authors gutted New Earth...... AGAIN....... In the Jihad.
Amaris, House Armies, WoB/Clans, my pain is never ending.
I even tried to clarify that one of the Factories survived based on conflicting source data in Ask The Writers.
They answered that it was 2 different factories, so the NE one was Gutted & the notation about the Trebaruna was not being moved to another world. :( The Hate they must have is real.
At this point the only things I have been able to identify being in the Tau Ceti IV (New Earth) system are all owned by the Republic & were not on the Jag island.
Mechs = Kheper & Uraeus
Dropships = Dragau (Gazelle), Duat?, Castrum
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The Jaguars were granted New Earth by the Wolves, so they may now control the factories.
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The Jaguars were granted New Earth by the Wolves, so they may now control the factories.
I wonder how the people of New Earth feel about that.
I wonder how the Jags feel about being gifted a nuked out radiation charcoal briquette of a planet.
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Wasn't an island on New Earth where the Fidelis were settled? Pretty much just confirms and expands their landhold.
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I wonder how the people of New Earth feel about that.
I wonder how the Jags feel about being gifted a nuked out radiation charcoal briquette of a planet.
Was it actually a rad soaked wasteland or was that just a cover story?
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Wasn't an island on New Earth where the Fidelis were settled? Pretty much just confirms and expands their landhold.
Yes, IIRC, a small continent or large island.
Think Greenland is the way I read it.
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Was it actually a rad soaked wasteland or was that just a cover story?
Sadly, pretty sure it was NOT just a cover story.
NE gets ripped up by Amaris, by the Houses, even a raid by the Ryuken wipes out the Militia in 3039, then the Blakists might have used Tac Nukes to take it in 3068 (This one was "rumor" but not 100% for sure) & when the Coalition came to free it in the Jihad the Blakists full on Nuked it & Wrecked most of the factories when they were losing. If it wasn't for the RotS repopulation efforts the planet was close to being abandoned.
And no one is more sad than me about it. Every time I think its going to recover, TPTB decide to pound it again.
The Planetary Capital was moved to the Arctic continent because so much of all the "nice" continents were covered in radioactive fallout after the Jihad.
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I had a dream that had a weird bit relating to nu-Smoke Jaguars: They would claim Stealth Armor as their thing. (There was also that the new Star League would specialize all nations very highly. And this BT stuff didn't relate to anything else in the dream. So weird. Anyway...)
A dream only but it really made me think, could this hypothetically be a thing? While old Smoke Jaguars emulated their totem to a fault (despite the name, smoke jaguars (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Smoke_Jaguar_(species)) weren't stealthy or ambush predators, unlike nova cats), there probably ain't no smoke jaguars in the Inner Sphere, the nu-Jags spent time as the Fidelis who were special forces, and new times may require change. The name Smoke Jaguar certainly could be interpreted as meaning a stealthy predator.
Just an interesting thought. I don't actually expect any Clan to specialize more than they already do, and given the Fidelis background, i would assume superb technical ability is the nu-Jags shtick (like Sea Foxes are merchants and Snow Ravens black navy Clan).
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They'd have needed to suddenly come up with something that gave them a quick boost to military strength, like the secret sibkos the Falcons suddenly had after the Refusal War. And like the Falcons and Wolves after the Refusal War, they'd have had to have quickly launched one or more attacks to demonstrate that they were still strong.
Of course, if they then failed in those attacks, then Alexandre Kerensky himself wouldn't have been able to save them.
With their all trueborn touman and brutal form of government did they have a much larger police force and PGC structure? I would think the jags would have a lot of truborn wash outs in those units who could have then be drafted into touman? This is what the wolves did post refusal war right?
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With their all trueborn touman and brutal form of government did they have a much larger police force and PGC structure? I would think the jags would have a lot of truborn wash outs in those units who could have then be drafted into touman? This is what the wolves did post refusal war right?
IIRC, The Wolves had a staggered level approach.
1. The moved Second Line units into Front Line slots.
2. They allowed Mechwarrior Washouts/testdowns that were serving in Tanker slots in garrison clusters, to retake a ToPosition against a 2nd Line warrior to be reactivated to 2nd Line units. If successful in that role they could then test again later against Front Line warriors to be eligible to serve in FL Galaxies.
3. They then filled in the tanker slots with Infantryman or those that full on tested down into lower castes.
4. All that is left then is filling in the grunt PGC infantry with the worst of the lower caste draftees.
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IIRC, The Wolves had a staggered level approach.
1. The moved Second Line units into Front Line slots.
2. They allowed Mechwarrior Washouts/testdowns that were serving in Tanker slots in garrison clusters, to retake a ToPosition against a 2nd Line warrior to be reactivated to 2nd Line units. If successful in that role they could then test again later against Front Line warriors to be eligible to serve in FL Galaxies.
3. They then filled in the tanker slots with Infantryman or those that full on tested down into lower castes.
4. All that is left then is filling in the grunt PGC infantry with the worst of the lower caste draftees.
The jags could have done that I suppose but their culture would have had to flex ALOT
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so my question is...who exactly makes up the ranks of the Fidelis?
there was a group of Jag warriors who escaped WoB imprisonment during the Jihad and fought for the RotS...I would assume they were all fairly old by that point...how do they go from a group of aging warriors to Clan Smoke Jaguar reborn?
do they have civilians? from where?
do they have a genetic repository? if not, how do they maintain the bloodlines? if they don't maintain the bloodlines, why bother calling themselves Clan Smoke Jaguar anymore?
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so my question is...who exactly makes up the ranks of the Fidelis?
there was a group of Jag warriors who escaped WoB imprisonment during the Jihad and fought for the RotS...I would assume they were all fairly old by that point...how do they go from a group of aging warriors to Clan Smoke Jaguar reborn?
do they have civilians? from where?
do they have a genetic repository? if not, how do they maintain the bloodlines? if they don't maintain the bloodlines, why bother calling themselves Clan Smoke Jaguar anymore?
That’s a question which I assume had addressed post Ilclan
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This is how it begins...
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I'd be betting on the smoke Jags absording the remains of the Fidilis Defenders, which apparently had been aping their behavior and rituals anyway
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This is how it begins...
Dun dun dun!!!
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Getting back on topic I want to sketch out a clear game and narrative scenario:
Leading candidate goes something like this:
Osis asks for help as written but khan mavali fletcher of the hells horses who has been searching for a way to vault his clan to invader status steps up.
Fletcher declares osis unfit for the ilkhanship since his lack of foresight and leadership allowed the inner sphere access to the homeworlds. He challenges osis on his fitness for command and defeats him.
Now at this point he could requests a trial of absorption against the jags. What are the rules around that again?
Or he could just dramatically declare his intention to " wipe out the barbarians" and head to huntress sans council approval.
So with that being said what would the horses need to slay the serpents?
The serpent fleet was battered after the 2nd naval engagement with the horses expertise in infantry and battle armor tactics can we assume they would have the skills to attempt to board and capture the remaining serpent warships?
To finish the ground fight I woukd bring alpha keshik along with beta Galaxy command and the 666 assault cluster a total of 7 trinaries of elite crusaders in top flight equipment with experiance in all manner of terrain.
I want to bump this scenario up again and explore the legal aspects of it
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I want to bump this scenario up again and explore the legal aspects of it
Legality is might makes right and whatever the Grand Council is willing to let you get away with.
Consider the Jaguars' "absorption' of Clan Mongoose. They refused to actually use any of the Mongoose genetic legacies, effectively making the Absorption an Annihilation. If legality meant anything, surely there would have been some objection raised to this by the other Clans on principle and for the waste of it (we all know how much the Clans hate "waste"!), yet source material records not a peep. But remember that Ulric not letting the Clans continue the invasion of the IS for 15 years was a "genocide"!
Weirdo was talking about the Clan use of artillery when he wrote this, but I think the spirit of it applies here:
...there is nothing more truly Clan than to look at someone, declare them Wrong for violating some rule they've never heard of, and using that as a reason to kill them using the most expedient and rule-breaking method possible.
Certainly there are things the other Clans could have done to aid/save the Jaguars and if they wanted to they would have shrugged off whether it was "legal," but like the Mongooses before them, nobody liked the Jaguars enough to bother.
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Legality is might makes right and whatever the Grand Council is willing to let you get away with.
Consider the Jaguars' "absorption' of Clan Mongoose. They refused to actually use any of the Mongoose genetic legacies, effectively making the Absorption an Annihilation. If legality meant anything, surely there would have been some objection raised to this by the other Clans on principle and for the waste of it (we all know how much the Clans hate "waste"!), yet source material records not a peep. But remember that Ulric not letting the Clans continue the invasion of the IS for 15 years was a "genocide"!
Weirdo was talking about the Clan use of artillery when he wrote this, but I think the spirit of it applies here:
Certainly there are things the other Clans could have done to aid/save the Jaguars and if they wanted to they would have shrugged off whether it was "legal," but like the Mongooses before them, nobody liked the Jaguars enough to bother.
Very good points! Which is why I think khan fletcher could have pull this off. If he had defeated osis and went in on his own to defeat serpent for “
Honor” who would object to that?
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Very good points! Which is why I think khan fletcher could have pull this off. If he had defeated osis and went in on his own to defeat serpent for “
Honor” who would object to that?
Anybody who thought the Horses would gain too much from it.
Generally I don't want to argue too much on the plausibility of what appears to be alternate history fanfic for your favorite Clan. Fundamentally though I have a couple of issues with your scenario:
1. The premise that bailing out and presumably absorbing the mauled remnants of the Jags at this point the vaults the Horses to "invader Clan status" is seriously flawed. If any other Clan had thought there were serious material gains to be made by saving the Jags they would have tried. Best case what you get for your trouble is maybe a rump galaxy or so of mixed frontline and second-line troops, no fleet, no IS holdings, and Huntress with all the infrastructure already destroyed.
2. Even with good infantry/BA capturing multiple WarShips is not a simple matter and that it's more likely for most of the Serpent ships to simply be destroyed outright, with possible loss/serious damage to some of the Horses ships also, and any that the Horses did manage to capture would probably require too much repair to make any difference in the balance of power against other Clans for the immediate future.
You also seem to not be accounting at all for Task Force Bulldog. I don't know if a complete TO&E for Bulldog has ever been published but if we presume it includes the entirety of all the units which had detachments fight in the Great Refusal (see spoilers for list), then seven trinaries is grossly inadequate to take them on.
Units that had detachments fight in the Great Refusal:
10th Lyran Guards (AFFC)
1st Genyosha (DCMS)
Red Lancers (CCAF)
Invader Galaxy (Com Guards)
1st St. Ives Lancers (SIMC)
1st Free Worlds Guards (FWLM)
The Clan Nova Cat command Keshik also fought but it's unclear what other Nova Cat forces were part of Bulldog.
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also by time another clan could absorb the jags there wouldn't be an invasion zone LEFT.
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There is also the aspect of Vlad & Marthe.
When the other clans tried to join the Invasion, they triggered the Harvest trials to keep the IS to themselves.
If another clan tried to help the Jags after Vlad was saying to let them stand on their own, what are the odds that he or Marthe then chimes in to stop that somehow or start nibbling at the assisting clan.
But as Middcore mentioned, the amount of force needed to deal w/ the rest of Serpent is one thing, but, the amount needed to deal w/ the Bulldog force is entirely another.
That force added in is the kind of thing that would possibly break a single smaller clan, enough to make it ripe for another clan to absorb.
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After they absorbed the mongoose clan the jags refused to use they bloodnames they where now owners of, only for another clan to eventually do so. Could another clan have done the same with jags due to iffy legal nature of the trial of annihilation against the jags?
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After they absorbed the mongoose clan the jags refused to use they bloodnames they where now owners of, only for another clan to eventually do so. Could another clan have done the same with jags due to iffy legal nature of the trial of annihilation against the jags?
If the Clan who got the Jaguar genetic legacies saw any benefit to them, they'd probably use them. I don't think anything's been published indicating that any Clan has though.
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If the Clan who got the Jaguar genetic legacies saw any benefit to them, they'd probably use them. I don't think anything's been published indicating that any Clan has though.
Thanks! And to clarify I should have said not that they did but they could. Which actually sparks another question:
Are the clans really so dense that they actually blame the jags defeat on bad genetics rather than decades of poor resource management?
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Is that a trick question? Have you ever met the Clans?
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Is that a trick question? Have you ever met the Clans?
Lol well said
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Question? What gives the IlKhan the right to reform an annihilated clan when absorbed and abjured clans have been not the same right.
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Question? What gives the IlKhan the right to reform an annihilated clan when absorbed and abjured clans have been not the same right.
Same as any ilKhan, any opposed back up their Refusals with force otherwise the motion carries
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Who was the last jag lore master and did she or he die in the OZ?
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Who was the last jag lore master and did she or he die in the OZ?
Unknown at present but if they were in the OZ (which seems unlikely) they almost certainly went down fighting or BULLDOG would have reported it
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Unknown at present but if they were in the OZ (which seems unlikely) they almost certainly went down fighting or BULLDOG would have reported it
Good point! So they should have been on huntress or strana mechty when serpent came calling? Leading question but did all lore masters have a Keshik or at least a bodyguard star?
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Not all of them are War Chiefs most are actually fairly 'old' in the Clan terms. Offensive actions are mostly the SaKhan's job with the Alpha Galaxy on the Capital available to answer challenges as needed. Good Khans are in their own or the Grand Council working deals while their Loremasters ensure the Clan's territory is as productive as possible and keeping tabs on the enemy. Its mostly an Administrative and Advisory position although it is the highest of both.
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Same as any ilKhan, any opposed back up their Refusals with force otherwise the motion carries
Besides it's easy eneugh for Alaric to say "welp the jags are back" The fidilis means they weren't COMPLETELY wiped out so Alaric could easy say "The Jags are the victor of their trial of annialation"
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Who was the last jag lore master and did she or he die in the OZ?
Yes here. (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Edmund_Hoyt)
TT
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Except that Hoyt died in 3052 a full eight years before the Smoke Jaguars were destroyed (temporarily) during the Great Refusal. There had to be a Loremaster between that period and we don't know who they were
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OP asked if they had died in the OZ...
TT
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OP asked if they had died in the OZ...
TT
True but the article was still helpful! Based on what I read the jags loremaster could float as needed and take command of units as needed but did not have their own set keshik?
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Was reviewing my great new plastic minis with their great flavor adding character cards and I was pleased to see one of my favs brandon Howell! However while he had been presented before as a more “ reasonable and cautious” his card presents him as a schemer and darn near genocidal in mindset to the IS. So if Howell had survived to lead the jags would they have been even more villainous?’
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Was reviewing my great new plastic minis with their great flavor adding character cards and I was pleased to see one of my favs brandon Howell! However while he had been presented before as a more “ reasonable and cautious” his card presents him as a schemer and darn near genocidal in mindset to the IS. So if Howell had survived to lead the jags would they have been even more villainous?’
It seems like a writer got him confused with Brendon Corbett.
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It seems like a writer got him confused with Brendon Corbett.
Ah that makes more sense
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Hmmm, perhaps that should be an errata post? I don't have that specific product so I don't feel comfortable posting that.
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Recognizing that it would have required brandon Howell being in operational command as he was as far as I know he was the only jag commander who didn’t just charge… but when the first wave of jag reinforcements ( the adhoc galaxy) arrived would it not have been smarter to drop the bulk of the galaxy to reclaim the command center of manufacturing centers?
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Recognizing that it would have required brandon Howell being in operational command as he was as far as I know he was the only jag commander who didn’t just charge… but when the first wave of jag reinforcements ( the adhoc galaxy) arrived would it not have been smarter to drop the bulk of the galaxy to reclaim the command center of manufacturing centers?
I was rereading the short story “
Two roads diverged” and it would have been cool to have more POV ( or any from Howell) during the huntress campaign
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Do we even know the size of this Crusader Shark Relief Force? I really doubt it was that big in the first place (cluster possible maybe 2?) and it is easy to imagine how word got to Vlad. Yeah I am looking at you Merchant Factor Angus Labov!
Lets say that Hawker wins the fight he has scheduled with Vlad this time and thus the Crusader Wolves are won to this Crusader Relief effort banner. Other Crusader Clans may than start to be won over on the basis of this victory with the goal of driving out the InnerSphere taint and securing the Homeworlds for all time.
This far larger relief force annihilates the forces of the false Star League and a new hero is born, long live ilKhan Ian Hawker! As a Diamond Shark and the Great Protector of the Clans there could well be motions for Absorptions and perhaps even a new Clan or two is born. I think he would announce the Clan intention to abide by the Truce of Tukayyid giving the Sharks and their Clan allies time to build up and reorder things. Perhaps other Clans are added to the Invasion but what is certain is permeant contact with the InnerSphere, no pulling back.
I would approach the Nova Cat Abjuration a bit differently than canon as well maybe giving those loyalist Crusaders (must have been a few) a chance at redemption. Personally I hate waste as do the Clans and because of his efforts to save the Clan Homeworlds and some of the Clans from themselves this could stand. Another opportunity for Absorption certainly and perhaps the dawn of some new Clans as I said before.
Here is an interesting idea - the Diamond Sharks split off their Wardens to form Clan Sea Fox so they may go their own way. They are very friendly with the Nova Cats and an Absorption followed by a split would certainly be very possible. I like that a bunch!
I'd have Victor taken as a bondsman by the Cloud Cobras who takes a Phelan route within this Clan but the loss of so many key regiments and figures would do great damage to the Star League. Oh and Lincoln Osis would be dead here either killed in combat or stripped by Hawker for keeping secrecy and sucking but perhaps Brandon Howell would finally get a chance to lead the Jags or what is left now indebted to the Sharks.
How's that for starters?
This was really great and I hope we get some Ian Hawker POV stories in a future sharpnel
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If in my scenario say the blood spirits wiped out serpent and reclaimed the jags genetic repository with the Jag remains what if any of the following could they claim as the victors:
1) Any salvage
2) Several " production runs" of prized sibkos
By my understanding and correct me if I am wrong the Clans have the ability to mass produce warriors but they are limited by the trainers, time and equipment of the clan itself right?
So could the Spirits demand " Give me 2 sibkos of Osis with a side of Moon elementals"
Not claiming the blood right but the actual sibkos new babies or young tykes
3) The actual blood rights
If the jags lost a refusal trial could the Spirits claim the exclusive blood lines or did that still need GC approval?
Can any one add insight on question 2?
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Given that 80-90% of a sibko fails to make it to warrior status, there's typically not going to be much interest by Clan in claiming a sibko from another Clan as a prize. Demanding a certain number of warriors like they do in harvest trials would be more likely.
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Given that 80-90% of a sibko fails to make it to warrior status, there's typically not going to be much interest by Clan in claiming a sibko from another Clan as a prize. Demanding a certain number of warriors like they do in harvest trials would be more likely.
didn't the Falcons (or whats left of them in their OZ) just Trial for some Bear sibkos to shore up their numbers or something?
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Under extremely unusual circumstances. The Remnant Falcons are at a point where they're desperate for warriors. And they targeted sibkos that had reached the point where they were almost ready for their first trials of position. They weren't trialing for babies or toddlers.
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didn't the Falcons (or whats left of them in their OZ) just Trial for some Bear sibkos to shore up their numbers or something?
This is the A plot of the upcoming novel A Question of Survival
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Is there a new (if any) symbol for Prohaska Moon's Jaguar's 2.0 ?
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Story line wise that's how I would write it. Osis defeated and ousted and the much cooler brandon Howell leading a new " reasonable" jags as part of another clan
I am loving the flamboyant and fab jiyi Christu leading the Neo “
Reasonable” falcons post Ilclan trial. Alas if only we could have had that with brandon Howell
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Under extremely unusual circumstances. The Remnant Falcons are at a point where they're desperate for warriors. And they targeted sibkos that had reached the point where they were almost ready for their first trials of position. They weren't trialing for babies or toddlers.
This is something the jags I feel could have potential pulled off once or twice in the HW but how could they have rapidly replaced their terrible equipment losses?
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Simply put, they couldn't replace either. They'd reached the point where their lack of infrastructure and production was fatal. The only thing that could have saved them was a couple of years of being ignored while they focused on rebuilding, and that was never going to happen.
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Something with Mongoose flavor for the ilClan-era Fidelis and resurrected Jags:
BLACK CAT (MONGOOSE IIC) —> https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/black-cat-mongoose-iic/ (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/black-cat-mongoose-iic/)
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Something with Mongoose flavor for the ilClan-era Fidelis and resurrected Jags:
BLACK CAT (MONGOOSE IIC) —> https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/black-cat-mongoose-iic/ (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/black-cat-mongoose-iic/)
New IIC?! I love to see it
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This was really great and I hope we get some Ian Hawker POV stories in a future sharpnel
Just cracked myself up imagining that Ian Hawker had this down on his vision board. Hawker is a character I have grown to love.
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So I was just reminded that the jags had an entire covert ops cluster in 3060ish that went missing. I guess their write is in interstellar players 2? Can any one tell me more about them?
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Simply put, they couldn't replace either. They'd reached the point where their lack of infrastructure and production was fatal. The only thing that could have saved them was a couple of years of being ignored while they focused on rebuilding, and that was never going to happen.
Was their entire warship fleet wrecked in the OZ and at huntress?
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Was their entire warship fleet wrecked in the OZ and at huntress?
Pretty much.
The DC & CS salvaged a couple IIRC, and there were 2?, that disappeared from the Jags that were later used by renegade warriors.
But most of it was trashed completely, captured, or mothballed from serious damage.
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Given that 80-90% of a sibko fails to make it to warrior status, there's typically not going to be much interest by Clan in claiming a sibko from another Clan as a prize. Demanding a certain number of warriors like they do in harvest trials would be more likely.
This become a plot point in the new jag focused novel “ jaguars leap” which was interesting
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If only he listened to his dream
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Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this.
I swear I've seen a Clan Honor Interpretation Table that indicates 'strict / liberal / etc.' that included Smoke Jaguar ... but now for the life of me I can't find it.
Did I dream it up?
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It's shown up a few places. I think it's in the Designing Scenarios chapter in the back of Total Warfare.
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Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this.
I swear I've seen a Clan Honor Interpretation Table that indicates 'strict / liberal / etc.' that included Smoke Jaguar ... but now for the life of me I can't find it.
Did I dream it up?
Total Warfare page 274.
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Total Warfare page 274.
Yep, pretty much any "deceased" clan info tends to be in the core rulebooks if they were not in the FM series.
What little of it there is at least.
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Neither of my versions of TW have the Jaguars -- could you guys relay what yours says?
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The Jaguars were never included in the TW tables. They're in Era Report 3052 and 3062. Strict pre-Invasion, Opportunistic post-Invasion.
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Ah ha -- pg.141 ER:3062. I knew I saw it somewhere. Thanks
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FYI, The new Jags now have entries on the MUL for the ilClan Era http://www.masterunitlist.info/Era/FactionEraDetails?FactionId=98&EraId=257
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FYI, The new Jags now have entries on the MUL for the ilClan Era http://www.masterunitlist.info/Era/FactionEraDetails?FactionId=98&EraId=257
Thank you sir!
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The nuJags and terra falcons are going to be issued units very sparingly until we get more info on them in future publications. Their lists will probably change significantly once we get some read on their size and personalities
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The nuJags and terra falcons are going to be issued units very sparingly until we get more info on them in future publications. Their lists will probably change significantly once we get some read on their size and personalities
I figured that would be the case. From what's up there right now I like the sprinkling of former Republic 'Mechs in there.
This may be a weird request, but is there any way to add a feature to remove the Clan General/IS General units from the faction lists? Some times I'm looking to see what units are limited or unique to a faction
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I figured that would be the case. From what's up there right now I like the sprinkling of former Republic 'Mechs in there.
This may be a weird request, but is there any way to add a feature to remove the Clan General/IS General units from the faction lists? Some times I'm looking to see what units are limited or unique to a faction
If you use the search feature it will do that.
Ie search for nuJags it will only return nuJag listings rather than nuJag and clan General. Use the faction filters
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It’s a brave, new world when Warhawk omnimechs don’t appear on a Jag MUL but Simian battle armor does...
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Unless something has changed, that listing has been around for a little while. It's, on the whole, a delightful mix of old standbys, Dark Age staples, and some decidedly top-end Republic equipment that I'm guessing are from the Fidelis days. Though, NK is right about the Warhawk. The NuJags just need some time to step out to the Scorpion Empire and reclaim the pride of Clan Smoke Jaguar.
Now we just need some paint schemes for all these toys.
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I figured that would be the case. From what's up there right now I like the sprinkling of former Republic 'Mechs in there.
This may be a weird request, but is there any way to add a feature to remove the Clan General/IS General units from the faction lists? Some times I'm looking to see what units are limited or unique to a faction
search via the Units tab http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter
going through Factions will always attach the associated general list
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=&HasBV=false&MinTons=&MaxTons=&MinBV=&MaxBV=&MinIntro=&MaxIntro=&MinCost=&MaxCost=&HasBFAbility=&MinPV=&MaxPV=&BookAuto=&FactionAuto=&Factions=98
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If you use the search feature it will do that.
Ie search for nuJags it will only return nuJag listings rather than nuJag and clan General. Use the faction filters
search via the Units tab http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter
going through Factions will always attach the associated general list
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=&HasBV=false&MinTons=&MaxTons=&MinBV=&MaxBV=&MinIntro=&MaxIntro=&MinCost=&MaxCost=&HasBFAbility=&MinPV=&MaxPV=&BookAuto=&FactionAuto=&Factions=98
Thank you very much to you both, I didn't realize that was the way to do that.
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So I just discovered the Iron Cheetah “ ultimate “ assault Mech the jags created very shortly before their first death. It’s noted as being very rare so in the battle for huntress would that have been restricted to the ilkhan bodyguard and brandon Howell’s keshik?
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Maybe a couple in those units. The MUL lists the Combine as the only user until the Republic-era when the Sharks starting making them again, and IIRC supplied them exclusively to the RotS. So, the majority of the design was in the OZ with the Touman and fell there, to be salvaged by the DCMS with apparently few to none in the Homeworlds for the other Clans to claim.
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Yeah, Huntress was getting the dregs of the Jaguars' resources, it's vanishingly unlikely that anyone would have had an Iron Cheetah there.
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Yeah, Huntress was getting the dregs of the Jaguars' resources, it's vanishingly unlikely that anyone would have had an Iron Cheetah there.
Right I assume the garrison forces which were noted as using 2nd or 3rd line tech I know would not but for example the shroud keshik of brandon Howell prob would?
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Personally, I can't imagine the Jaguars' capital world wouldn't have had at least some Iron Cheetahs on hand.
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Did you read the Twilight of the Clans novels? The galaxy that was stationed on Huntress was forced to use rusty relics of the Succession Wars that had been salvaged during the Invasion because everything else had been stripped from them for use by forces in the Invasion Corridor.
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Well, that's pretty lame if you ask me. I get it, but it's lame nonetheless. Imagine Lootera being properly defended by Iron Cheetahs, Warhawks (from the on-world factories) and Ebon Jaguars.
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Yeah, well, it's what you after 300 years of an economy that was run by muscleheads who thought that supply shortages could always be solved by beating up someone else and taking their stuff and didn't understand the importance of building your own gear.
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Which thankfully isn't exactly borne out by some of the other sources out there that deal with Jaguars, including the very existence of the high-end Iron Cheetah that prompted this line of discussion. The basic scenario of post-Tukayyid CSJ is one that required some substantial industrial power to maintain the tempo of rebuilding. The two Huntress Galaxies were supplementing their ranks with 3050+ IS designs per the TotC scenario pack and 3055U, as the dregs of the entire Touman and a posting of shame, but even they had access to Clan BattleMechs like the Stone Rhino and some OmniMechs. And yes, TK, I too assume the output from those factories got redirected once SERPENT appeared.
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It’s a brave, new world when Warhawk omnimechs don’t appear on a Jag MUL but Simian battle armor does...
Ewwwwww
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Well, that's pretty lame if you ask me. I get it, but it's lame nonetheless. Imagine Lootera being properly defended by Iron Cheetahs, Warhawks (from the on-world factories) and Ebon Jaguars.
Was the iron cheetah factory destroyed by serpent or accidentally during the WOR?
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According to the write up in Recognition Guide 19, the factory on Huntress was destroyed by Task Force Serpent.
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According to the write up in Recognition Guide 19, the factory on Huntress was destroyed by Task Force Serpent.
Thanks! Hmmm… storyline wise how did the sharks get the specs to build it then? Did they “ acquire”
Few battered hulks from huntress?
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Thanks! Hmmm… storyline wise how did the sharks get the specs to build it then? Did they “ acquire”
Few battered hulks from huntress?
Close, some Jaguar technicians used the design specs to barter and the specs made their way to a Shark merchant. It doesn't say if the techs directly bartered with the Shark merchant or if the specs passed through other hands first
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Close, some Jaguar technicians used the design specs to barter and the specs made their way to a Shark merchant. It doesn't say if the techs directly bartered with the Shark merchant or if the specs passed through other hands first
Wantec you again come through with great info. Thank you sir. Something I have been fascinated by is the notion that the sharks did try to assemble a force to save the jags and if they had succeeded there was some great tech and salvage on huntress. How they would have held it TBD but I enjoy the thought experiment
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Wantec you again come through with great info. Thank you sir. Something I have been fascinated by is the notion that the sharks did try to assemble a force to save the jags and if they had succeeded there was some great tech and salvage on huntress. How they would have held it TBD but I enjoy the thought experiment
Story line wise how did they square the sharks voting against helping the jags in the grand council but then trying to send a relief force later?
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Story line wise how did they square the sharks voting against helping the jags in the grand council but then trying to send a relief force later?
Unlike the Wolverines, the Jaguar "annihilation" was more of an annihilation of the touman. Plenty of Jaguar lower castes, enclaves, and other resources made it into the hands of the other clans. In this case I don't think it was a relief force, but more a case of the Jag technicians made their way through clan space and in their travels had to trade the specs for further passage/supplies/etc.
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Each Kindraa goes their own way afaik, so only way the Khans would know was if one was a Mick-Kreese or part of another Kindraa which found out. Such things have come back to bite the Mandrills in the arse, such as when one Kindraa pissed off the Coyotes and Horses enough for them to wage a campaign to wipe them out.
If the mandrills in the mentioned scenario seized and attempted to hold say a factory on huntress from the SLDF but did not venture beyond that is still a no no?
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Did you read the Twilight of the Clans novels? The galaxy that was stationed on Huntress was forced to use rusty relics of the Succession Wars that had been salvaged during the Invasion because everything else had been stripped from them for use by forces in the Invasion Corridor.
I guess the one counter to that would have been if a few Iron Cheetahs made if back from the OZ with the reinforcements that Hang Mehta and Paul Moon landed with. I'm hoping we see a few new Iron Cheetah configs moving forward. The one new configuration in the Rec Guide was not exactly what I was hoping for....so expensive.
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I'm sure we'll get further Iron Cheetah variants moving forward- TPTB love introducing new omni configs, after all. There was probably a limit on how many could be in the Rec Guide- there were six variants in there already.
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For the Rec Guides there was a limit on configs, but it was a case of making it fit on the page(s) not a strict limit of 3, 4, etc. configs.
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Story line wise how did they square the sharks voting against helping the jags in the grand council but then trying to send a relief force later?
Following up on this. Was hawker bullied into voting no by his blood named leaders but than had a change of heart?
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I'm sure we'll get further Iron Cheetah variants moving forward- TPTB love introducing new omni configs, after all. There was probably a limit on how many could be in the Rec Guide- there were six variants in there already.
I don’t have my novel handy but I believe the text explicitly states that the ultra elite jag relief force which Osis brought in included “fresh off the assembly line” units so one could retcon some of dire wolfs as iron cheetahs? Taking that a bit further I imagine with that pace of battle it might have been tough to tell the difference…
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I don’t have my novel handy but I believe the text explicitly states that the ultra elite jag relief force which Osis brought in included “fresh off the assembly line” units so one could retcon some of dire wolfs as iron cheetahs? Taking that a bit further I imagine with that pace of battle it might have been tough to tell the difference…
“The damn war book is having an episode.”
“What’s it saying.”
“Timber wolf, dire wolf, Timber wolf, dire wolf. It gave up and said “Madishi”
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For the Rec Guides there was a limit on configs, but it was a case of making it fit on the page(s) not a strict limit of 3, 4, etc. configs.
yeah so far all the varients seem mostly brawleresque, would be nice to see a varient designed for long range work,
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“The damn war book is having an episode.”
“What’s it saying.”
“Timber wolf, dire wolf, Timber wolf, dire wolf. It gave up and said “Madishi”
Who got the bulk of the jag salvage after huntress?
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The Inner Sphere, I believe.
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The Inner Sphere, I believe.
Right but was it the star league who then split the loot?
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It was divided up between participating Star League forces. Don't think we ever got a breakdown of how it was divided.
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Yeah. First priority would be using the salvage to rebuild what forces can be rebuilt. Maybe with an eye towards whoever was assigned to stay as a garrison first
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Under extremely unusual circumstances. The Remnant Falcons are at a point where they're desperate for warriors. And they targeted sibkos that had reached the point where they were almost ready for their first trials of position. They weren't trialing for babies or toddlers.
Assuming the jags survived huntress they would have been a similar desperate situation ( worse I think) who do we think they would have tried to Harvest from?
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I don't think they'd have targeted sibkos the way Jiyi did. In the scenario you're proposing, the Jags would have needed to prove that they were strong enough to remain a functioning Clan to the Grand Council. Raiding other Clans for sibkos rather than conducting Harvest Trials for warriors would have likely gotten them marked for Absorption.
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Ironically, the Vipers raided the Jaguars for one of their sibkos in Jaguar's Leap, and it didn't seem to be an issue.
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Never underestimate the hypocrisy and two-faced nature of Clan politics.
Especially when it comes to justifying action against a Clan that none of the other Clans like.
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It's looking like the Iron Cheetah is going to be canon now :o
(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/thumb/2/25/Recog-Guide-Cover-19-%28Cover%29.jpg/775px-axuxor0ytjtpmgf56mexhyqftdc1hve.jpg?timestamp=20210904014835)
Pure speculation on my part but I can't imagine what else that would be! Its visible loadout matches the configuration presented on the HMP website, just with some weapons location changes.
Any word of this “cool cat” sorry lol! Is getting its own sculpt?
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Any word of this “cool cat” sorry lol! Is getting its own sculpt?
Not yet announced, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time. I can't wait; it's a beast of a 'Mech. Better than the Dire Wolf in every way but raw pod space, and most of the Daishi's configurations are honestly over-gunned or waste a lot of that extra tonnage on more heat sinks.
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Not yet announced, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time. I can't wait; it's a beast of a 'Mech. Better than the Dire Wolf in every way but raw pod space, and most of the Daishi's configurations are honestly over-gunned or waste a lot of that extra tonnage on more heat sinks.
Or just on guns that it can't afford to fire or it will cook itself.
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Or just on guns that it can't afford to fire or it will cook itself.
Yes it is far more balanced than the Dire Wolf, and I can't wait to obtain one for my Ravens.
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Only one?
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The IC was a fan design IIRC & it really shows in the optimized configurations.
You can make very deadly DireWolves that can stomp an IC, just look at the Hohiro model for example.
But it's hard to argue what is better w/ only "canon configs" when one is clearly made from a different standard.
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Looks like a Direwolf to me ?
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Looks like a Direwolf to me ?
It's based on the same chassis, but is faster and (slightly) better-armored. As mentioned, it also has better stock configurations.
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I think that after Howell killed the first few idiots, the rest would fall in line fairly easily. Especially if the Clan's strength was obviously increasing.
Picking up this fun what if: the jags needed more troops and loathed the nova cats. Could they have worked a deal to tag in another home clan to claim nova cat worlds and troublesome former combine worlds? The horses come to mind and maybe the hellions?
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Picking up this fun what if: the jags needed more troops and loathed the nova cats. Could they have worked a deal to tag in another home clan to claim nova cat worlds and troublesome former combine worlds? The horses come to mind and maybe the hellions?
Too proud, even though they were on a sinking ship so to speak
I remember a line in one of the "Twilight of the Clans" novels, where it said something to the extent that Smoke Jags hid what was going on in their OZ (Bulldog) from the other Clans, as so not to appear weak or target for Absorbtion. It was not until Serpent poped up on Huntress's and Strana Mecthy's door step. By then they were finished
But yes original comment, it could have worked, if it was timed right, and Smoke Jag was not so proud
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I have wondered why none of the other Clans declared a Trial of Absorption for the Jaguars. At least when they knew Huntress was invaded by the Inner Sphere.
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I have wondered why none of the other Clans declared a Trial of Absorption for the Jaguars. At least when they knew Huntress was invaded by the Inner Sphere.
My guess is they assumed the jags would win and then be so busted up that they could have been absorbed “legally” after the IS was driven off. They were not planning on the great refusal etc
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My guess is they assumed the jags would win and then be so busted up that they could have been absorbed “legally” after the IS was driven off. They were not planning on the great refusal etc
Can you imagine how that trial would look like? When Lincoln Osis fled from Huntress the Jaguars had a binary left. Even if they had won they might have cobbled up one Galaxy at most. Plus perhaps 1 or 2 warships. The Jaguars were already dead at that point I feel absorption would have been a meaningless gesture. And probably honorless as well.If you want their resources you can just walk in and take it.
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I have wondered why none of the other Clans declared a Trial of Absorption for the Jaguars. At least when they knew Huntress was invaded by the Inner Sphere.
Because they had bigger things to worry about... like the SLDF forces amassed on their doorstep, and the fear that the SLDF might not stop with the Jaguars.
Can you imagine how that trial would look like? When Lincoln Osis fled from Huntress the Jaguars had a binary left. Even if they had won they might have cobbled up one Galaxy at most. Plus perhaps 1 or 2 warships. The Jaguars were already dead at that point I feel absorption would have been a meaningless gesture. And probably honorless as well.If you want their resources you can just walk in and take it.
It wouldn't have been a meaningless gesture, because Absorption isn't just about a Clan's military assets (which are never a guarantee anyway, given that said Clan would likely be throwing those forces against their opponent). Whatever Clan won the bid for Absorption would've gotten all of those Jaguar enclaves for virtually nothing (and things might've gone quite different in the Homeworlds post-Refusal), and resources in the Homeworlds count for a lot.
As for it being "honorless", I kinda disagree: Clan honor would consider an Absorption against a weak Clan to be quite honorable and appropriate, though there is the idea that they'd consider Absorbing a Clan currently in a fight for its life to be dubious... but then again, I imagine after the way the Jaguars acted towards the Adders during their Absorption of the Mongooses, there'd be a certain poetic justice in a Clan Absorbing the Jaguars while they're fighting against the SLDF.
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As for it being "honorless", I disagree: Clan honor would consider an Absorption against a weak Clan to be quite honorable and appropriate.
Yep. You're taking resources wasted on weaklings who'd just squander them pointlessly.
That said, I think the other Clans didn't bother Absorbing the Jags because, frankly, nobody else liked them very much. In a society of jerks and bullies, the Jaguars were bad enough to piss everyone off. It's why I have some hope for the reborn Clan; I think it'd be a lot of fun to see them try to stick to strict honor rules while trying to avoid becoming hypocritical dingbats.
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I think more pragmaticly... the Inner Sphere had seemingly targeted the smoke Jaguars for annialation, would you really want to risk an absorbtion and suddenly see all those guns turned on you?
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I think more pragmaticly... the Inner Sphere had seemingly targeted the smoke Jaguars for annialation, would you really want to risk an absorbtion and suddenly see all those guns turned on you?
Probably a bit from every column. Sometimes things are complicated.
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He is indeed mentioned as a tactical genius in Grave Covenant, and for some reason the people there equate Tactical Genius with Strategic Dunce. There are a couple of write ups where he is referred to as a Strategic Genius, but for the most part it isn't mentioned. Or contradicted, at least, explicitly.
Consistency has ever been a problem and the same lack of information that lets players infer their own interpretation of the Jaguars also works for authors. Which explains the somewhat contradictory stance on artillery and freebirth troops, amongst others.
Reading a bit between the lines, and trying to make sense of all the issues involved, my reading would be that Lincoln Osis was indeed a tactical and strategic genius. The IS feared an Osis led invasion and did so with cause. As ER62 says, he would have been a terrifying war leader
Where he failed...and what caused him to make mistakes...was his personality. He was a glory hound, an ego maniac and he lacked confidence in himself. He was as likely to make a decision based upon how he believed it would reflect back on him as he was to make one based on tactical or strategic values. An example is when he tried to emulate Howell on Tukayyid or tried to shift the blame for the failures of Luthien and Tukayyid, or ordered the Sixth to abandon its positions simply because be felt defensive tactics would make him look bad. He was a Khan able to sacrifice his own Clan to make himself look good.
There are also a couple of scenes which make me think he was losing support within the Clan....that would make sense given a string of high profile failures during his tenure and the blatant corruption he showed by retaining the Khanship after bring elected ilKhan, but it could also just be the way I read it. If so, he would be under a lot of pressure to maintain support inside the Clan as his supporters melted away.
So...whether he was a strategic genius or not would depend on how much of his ego and insecurity he could put aside.
Which...if he were winning...would be easy to do, and so make him doubly dangerous. Its one reason why an Osis led invasion was considered so dangerous for the IS.
But...when losing...putting his ego aside would be difficult, and he would increasingly make decisions based on his own need for glory and political security. Making him a huge liability for his own Clan during Bulldog and Serpent. Which he was.
But as I said, that's my reading and the info we have is vague enough others are possible. But I like this as it provides, to me, a better explanation for the Jaguars collapse than "they were so unprepared for the invasion they had spent years preparing for and would have launched months previously that they armed themselves with guns"
Do we have any canon examples of challenges to be osis leadership of the clan?
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That said, I think the other Clans didn't bother Absorbing the Jags because, frankly, nobody else liked them very much. In a society of jerks and bullies, the Jaguars were bad enough to piss everyone off. It's why I have some hope for the reborn Clan; I think it'd be a lot of fun to see them try to stick to strict honor rules while trying to avoid becoming hypocritical dingbats.
The Jaguars did have something very precious: an invasion corridor in the Inner Sphere.
Furthermore, quite a number of enclaves on some Homeworlds planets, an excellent R&D for military gear, strong bloodlines.
I think the Home Clans might have tried to absorb the Jaguars. The winner could have the right of the Jaguar`s invasion right.
What Clan could have tried?
IMHO Hell`s Horses, Goliath Scorpion and Star Adders would have been strong enough.
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The Jaguars did have something very precious: an invasion corridor in the Inner Sphere.
I think the Home Clans might have tried to absorb the Jaguars. The winner could have the right of the Jaguar`s invasion right.
Going by your original suggestion of the Absorption occurring when Huntress was invaded, there was no invasion corridor left, so that's a moot point.
What Clan could have tried?
IMHO Hell`s Horses, Goliath Scorpion and Star Adders would have been strong enough.
And again going by your original suggestion, any Clan would've been strong enough, seeing as the Jaguars' remaining military at that time was a joke.
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Going by your original suggestion of the Absorption occurring when Huntress was invaded, there was no invasion corridor left, so that's a moot point.
While no corridor was left, the fact is that there were four invasion corridors. The Clan which would have absorbed the Jaguars, must have attacked this corridor. A disadvantage, but nevertheless, they could be part of the Invasion.
And again going by your original suggestion, any Clan would've been strong enough, seeing as the Jaguars' remaining military at that time was a joke.
Besides military might, the Clans I mentioned were also political strong.
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While no corridor was left, the fact is that there were four invasion corridors. The Clan which would have absorbed the Jaguars, must have attacked this corridor. A disadvantage, but nevertheless, they could be part of the Invasion.
A Clan that wins the Absorption bid would be attacking the Jaguars' existing assets, not assets they used to have. There might be an argument that they'd also win the Jaguars' rights to have an invasion corridor, but it's a flimsy one IMO.
Besides military might, the Clans I mentioned were also political strong.
Which has nothing to do with their chances of winning the right to Absorb another Clan. Absorptions are bid upon, per ER: Golden Century, with the right going to the Clan that bids the lowest. And at the point where Huntress is taken by the SLDF, literally any Clan would be able to bid and stand an excellent chance of pulling it off.
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A Clan that wins the Absorption bid would be attacking the Jaguars' existing assets, not assets they used to have. There might be an argument that they'd also win the Jaguars' rights to have an invasion corridor, but it's a flimsy one IMO.
It gets the assests and legal rights and duties.
All this can be opposed in more Trials of Grievance or Trials of Possession.
IMHO the Wars of Grievance which happend after the Great Refusal and the Abjuration of the Nova Cats should have happened before.
Which has nothing to do with their chances of winning the right to Absorb another Clan. Absorptions are bid upon, per ER: Golden Century, with the right going to the Clan that bids the lowest. And at the point where Huntress is taken by the SLDF, literally any Clan would be able to bid and stand an excellent chance of pulling it off.
Correct.
So why did they not do this?
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It gets the assests and legal rights and duties.
There's no source that says this is the case, though I could see it being argued in the Grand Council.
All this can be opposed in more Trials of Grievance or Trials of Possession.
Now this I can actually agree with. Whichever Clan Absorbed the Jaguars would inevitably get drowned in Trials of Possession for the right to that invasion corridor, and probably lose out on their best opportunity to capitalize on it.
IMHO the Wars of Grievance which happend after the Great Refusal and the Abjuration of the Nova Cats should have happened before.
Not really, no. The Jaguars were concealing how weak they were and how dire their circumstances were. The Wars of Possession (which is the actual name of those conflicts (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wars_of_Possession), not Wars of Grievance) happened when they were supposed to happen.
Correct.
So why did they not do this?
I already answered this: because they had bigger problems to worry about. The SLDF was on their proverbial doorstep and the other Clans were certainly not wanting to draw the SLDF's ire by getting involved in their Annihilation of the Jaguars.