“Save” the Jags

[Sjhernan3060]

I have been thinking about throwing kindraa mick kreese at task force serpent to “ save “ the jags my question is would the mandrill khans be obligated to tell the other kindraa about the assault on huntress and their decision to not interfere?

[Colt Ward]

Each Kindraa goes their own way afaik, so only way the Khans would know was if one was a Mick-Kreese or part of another Kindraa which found out.  Such things have come back to bite the Mandrills in the arse, such as when one Kindraa pissed off the Coyotes and Horses enough for them to wage a campaign to wipe them out.

[Sjhernan3060]

Each Kindraa goes their own way afaik, so only way the Khans would know was if one was a Mick-Kreese or part of another Kindraa which found out.  Such things have come back to bite the Mandrills in the arse, such as when one Kindraa pissed off the Coyotes and Horses enough for them to wage a campaign to wipe them out.

Exactly. Way back when I first picked up FM crusader clans I dismissed the mandrills but  they lend themselves to some interesting ideas!

I am toying with a story where kindraa mick kreese and the spirits blood guard jump into the huntress battle. Mick kreese with its naval and boarding expertise would lead the warship battle and provide air support ( if successful) for the ground campaign which the spirits would lead.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Exactly. Way back when I first picked up FM crusader clans I dismissed the mandrills but  they lend themselves to some interesting ideas!

They put the "fun" in "dysfunctional"?

[rebs]

Exactly. Way back when I first picked up FM crusader clans I dismissed the mandrills but  they lend themselves to some interesting ideas!

I am toying with a story where kindraa mick kreese and the spirits blood guard jump into the huntress battle. Mick kreese with its naval and boarding expertise would lead the warship battle and provide air support ( if successful) for the ground campaign which the spirits would lead.

What other Clans would you involve?  Who would be defending?   Surely not while tje Jags were alive.

[Colt Ward]

He has been championing the idea of someone among the other Clans coming to the Jags rescue against Serpent.

I am not sure that would work out, by the vote you can see how loved the Jaguars are . . . not sure ANY Clan could get that type of support.

[rebs]

I'm definitely not sure of the Mandrills doing that.  They are one of the Clans that are sticklers about non-interference in the internal affairs of other Clans.  They only helped out the Blood Spirits because they believed that the weaker Clans should help each other.  And the was mostly Kindraa Smythe-Jewel, and look what that got them...

[Sjhernan3060]

I'm definitely not sure of the Mandrills doing that.  They are one of the Clans that are sticklers about non-interference in the internal affairs of other Clans.  They only helped out the Blood Spirits because they believed that the weaker Clans should help each other.  And the was mostly Kindraa Smythe-Jewel, and look what that got them...

See that’s what I thought as well back in the day but kindraa mick kreese and the spirits became very close and did a number of joint operations together.

[rebs]

See that’s what I thought as well back in the day but kindraa mick kreese and the spirits became very close and did a number of joint operations together.

That's true as well.   And I honestly don't see any other Clans that would lift a finger for the "in this solemn matter let no one interfere" Jags.  And as much as some people seem to think that the Clans in general agree with the Jaguars about how they dealt with the Londerholm Revolt, they didn't.  Many disgreeable things from the Jaguars' history add up to a general distaste for their brutality, including Londerholm, or the use of orbital bombardment during the Mongoose Absorption, or even the rumours of rape and other brutalities in Operation Klondike.  It has all added up to how the Jags were left alone to their fate in canon.

[Sjhernan3060]

That's true as well.   And I honestly don't see any other Clans that would lift a finger for the "in this solemn matter let no one interfere" Jags.  And as much as some people seem to think that the Clans in general agree with the Jaguars about how they dealt with the Londerholm Revolt, they didn't.  Many disgreeable things from the Jaguars' history add up to a general distaste for their brutality, including Londerholm, or the use of orbital bombardment during the Mongoose Absorption, or even the rumours of rape and other brutalities in Operation Klondike.  It has all added up to how the Jags were left alone to their fate in canon.

As they should have been! I really regret not putting quotes around save in my thread title. The jags were awful and the mandrills had long feuded with them what I am suggesting is that kindraa mick kreese jump in with their Lola iii and Potemkin to haul out any usable hulls after the naval battles, beat up serpent for cool points , and haul away dropships full of salvage

[Kit deSummersville]

Ask the Spirits if being the third wheel in a conflict gets you cool points. They just look like Dark Caste at that point.

[Sjhernan3060]

As has been posted in this thread earlier osis really painted himself into a corner by demanding help in a public way.

A more reasonable ask may have been to a seek naval and aero support from a strong air power. Said clan could have then demanded all hulls and or a hefty price in tech ( protons) or future breeding rights.

[rebs]

I think it's been pointed out elsewhere and by smarter posters than me that the Spirits are chalcas surats who lived too long among the Clans of Kerensky. 

At this point in their history it might be difficult to talk them into helping another Clan, given their spurned attitude.  They feel betrayed by the other Clans, that's why they only have diplomatic relations with three Clans at the best of times.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

As has been posted in this thread earlier osis really painted himself into a corner by demanding help in a public way.

  CSJ painted themselves into a corner by their behavior in the Inner Sphere. No other Clan marked itself for such destruction as CSJ had, with their depredations and brutality. No other Clan had proven itself as inept at strategic warfare, time and again, even with victory in sight, holding all the cards, their arrogance denied them victory. What Clan would even consider themselves as allies? CSJ made few friends among the Clans and when they were the most powerful Clan, abused their own civilians at a time when no other Clan would dare stop them. The memories of their bullying would probably never be forgotten.

  The Clans are not unified. Their culture has them in constant competition, in constant antagonism. Only are there rare moments of cooperation, and their appearance of a united invasion of the IS was an illusion: They just happened to be heading in the same direction by coincidence.
During the invasion, when a Clan was struggling to advance, the other Clans would gloat, not offer assistance; It is not in their culture to cooperate. Kerensky's legacy was a bitter form of Darwinism that gave the Clans more reasons to kill each other than to preserve one another.

  When Osis called for help, if I was a Clanner, I would be razzing him and CSJ without mercy. Osis, leader of the Fundamentalist Smoke Jaguars, the self-styled ultimate Clan warriors, just turned Clan protocols upside down and cried "Uncle!" in front of the people for whom he held contempt. When a Clan screwed up, the last people you asked for help would be the other Clans, because that was just a declaration of being unfit for existence. In that respect, Osis forgot Clan history.

  As it was, standing by and watching CSJ being crushed by IS forced was very much a part of Kerensky's legacy: A weak Clan was a detriment to all of the others and a lesson for the future.

[Sjhernan3060]

The first alternate event in this line would occur in 3059 during the Burrock Absorption. I would have a created character (possibly older and more wise) from Clan Blood Spirit challenge Loremaster Bayle Campbell after hearing his counsel to ignore the will of the Grand Council and participate in the Burrock Absorption. After defeating him in combat this person would urge the Khans to abide by the Council's ruling but await the proper time to strike. Realizing this righteous task would take allies this new Loremaster would urge his Clan to end their isolation and approach a few respected Clans with offers of friendship. This would include Diamond Shark, Fire Mandrill, Snow Raven, and a few more like Ghost Bear or Steel Viper.

Now this changes things as the Burrock Absorption likely goes far smoother for the Star Adders with even stronger material gains. This could lend weight to the Blood Spirit efforts to accumulate allies among the Homeworld Clans attempting to balance out their power.

The Jaguars failure goes deeper than just their ejection from the InnerSphere. Operation Revival was their baby and it is blowing up in the Clans faces in 3060. The 'fear' caused by the discovery of the Clan Homeworlds was used by Leo Showers masterfully to get him elected ilKhan and start the invasion during which they faced several reversals (Wolcott, Luthien, Tukayyid) as well numerous questionable incidents (Edo, the escape of Hohiro and the bombardment of that planet).

ilKhan Osis was elected to restart the invasion and to that purpose he ordered an accounting of Clan strength (FM Crusader and Warden Clans). He failed notify anyone that the InnerSphere had launched a coordinated attack against his Occupation Zone and hid the disaster till he asked for help in the Grand Council (NEED THE DATE). Immediately after that meeting (I have to research the date) I would get the Blood Spirits rolling.

They don't like or need the Grand Council to authorize anything and most telling they hate the InnerSphere even more. News of the attack on Huntress would send them over the edge that these barbarians are in Kerensky's Homeworlds. Call them Trials of Possession for the purpose of ousting of any InnerSphere force from the Clan space. Now this puts the Spirits to war with the Jags (perhaps like the Burrocks fought the Adders during their Absorption) and the InnerSphere. A tall order yes but a winnable affair.

After which you show up at the Grand Council to justify your actions and cite the Refusal War as precedent with a reborn Jaguar Clan as your new ally.

I really like this idea. When I reread my FM Crusaders it has alot in there about how the Spirits Loremaster was THE reason for them to break Clan custom and attack during the Burrock Absorption and alos names several characters who wanted the Spirits to end their Isolation and partner with the Mandrills and the Ravens again. I will need to re read that to see who would be a good person to replace the cannon loremaster.

[Sjhernan3060]

I am about half way through trial by fire which tells the tale of Brendon Corbett a jag galaxy commander who did not obey ilkhan osis and instead tried to build up the jags on tranquil. However I can’t find any mention of what if any warships he may have had from the Oz?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's been a while since I read The Dragon Roars, but weren't all the Jag's warships accounted for?

[Colt Ward]

Well . . . Potemkin (Osis Pride) & Black Lion (Streaking Mist) were the two unaccounted for (btw, it was FMU that answered for the rest) . . . the Streaking Mist was one of the ships that Paul Moon took when he left Huntress after promising to return it to the system for the Jaguar if he caused the diversion.  He used it to raid away from when he got it back (late 3060s to early 3070s) until 3079 when it was being repaired in the Ghent system and was jumped away.  Wreckage was never found but supposedly there were sightings in Nouveaux Paris.

Osis Pride never went all the way back to the homeworlds, instead they raided through the periphery to survive (maybe MCG's Jag source?) and ended up meeting the last Hellions retreating from the JFOZ in their busted Potemkin.  Negotiations had the two groups merge, Osis Pride became a Ice Hellion warship and was repaired, and I think the former Jags left . . . or maybe they joined the Hellions, I do not quite recall.  Meanwhile the Hellions stripped Potemkin was tumbled into the sun (wasteful?).  The ship was eventually broken up to help repair other surviving Scorpion ships in '77 after they bailed out of the Homeworlds.

[Sjhernan3060]

Well . . . Potemkin (Osis Pride) & Black Lion (Streaking Mist) were the two unaccounted for (btw, it was FMU that answered for the rest) . . . the Streaking Mist was one of the ships that Paul Moon took when he left Huntress after promising to return it to the system for the Jaguar if he caused the diversion.  He used it to raid away from when he got it back (late 3060s to early 3070s) until 3079 when it was being repaired in the Ghent system and was jumped away.  Wreckage was never found but supposedly there were sightings in Nouveaux Paris.

So it would have been possible that the osis pride could have been w Corbett’s forces?

Osis Pride never went all the way back to the homeworlds, instead they raided through the periphery to survive (maybe MCG's Jag source?) and ended up meeting the last Hellions retreating from the JFOZ in their busted Potemkin.  Negotiations had the two groups merge, Osis Pride became a Ice Hellion warship and was repaired, and I think the former Jags left . . . or maybe they joined the Hellions, I do not quite recall.  Meanwhile the Hellions stripped Potemkin was tumbled into the sun (wasteful?).  The ship was eventually broken up to help repair other surviving Scorpion ships in '77 after they bailed out of the Homeworlds.

[Colt Ward]

No, Brandon Corbett went back to the Homeworlds- he just did not go to Huntress, instead setting up shop on Tranquil.

MechCommander Gold's Desperate Measures xpac had a Jag Star Colonel hitting some old SLDF depot world to search for scraps and the nuke vault.  He was going to use Canned Sunshine to lighten up, like vapor levels of lighten, the 2nd Star League.  He had a mixed cluster or two of forces on that planet.

[Sjhernan3060]

No, Brandon Corbett went back to the Homeworlds- he just did not go to Huntress, instead setting up shop on Tranquil.

MechCommander Gold's Desperate Measures xpac had a Jag Star Colonel hitting some old SLDF depot world to search for scraps and the nuke vault.  He was going to use Canned Sunshine to lighten up, like vapor levels of lighten, the 2nd Star League.  He had a mixed cluster or two of forces on that planet.

Whoa!

[Colt Ward]

So that is new to you?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/MechCommander_(Video_Game)#MechCommander:_Desperate_Measures_Expansion_Pack

Good old Star Colonel Marcus Kotare . . . I did not know this, but apparently he was a brief character in MW2: Mercs- which I never played.  He had four named Star Captains you face in that campaign though only one was bloodnamed.

[rebs]

That's new to me too.  Cleanse the filthy surrat second Star League with nuclear fire!

[Colt Ward]

Well, he might have gotten chem/bio too.

[Sjhernan3060]

Now this would require some crystal ball work but why would another crusader not have worked to preserve the jags so the crusaders would have had an additional vote in the council?

The adders seemed to have done this with horses remnants when they created the stone lions

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Adders created the Stone Lions because they didn't want to have another big voting block made up a bunch of outsiders, given all the trouble they'd just had with the Burrocks.

[rebs]

Now this would require some crystal ball work but why would another crusader not have worked to preserve the jags so the crusaders would have had an additional vote in the council?

The adders seemed to have done this with horses remnants when they created the stone lions

Many Clans must have felt losing the Jags vote was an acceptable outcome.  The Jags paid for being one of the most feared Clans. 

[Sjhernan3060]

No, Brandon Corbett went back to the Homeworlds- he just did not go to Huntress, instead setting up shop on Tranquil.

MechCommander Gold's Desperate Measures xpac had a Jag Star Colonel hitting some old SLDF depot world to search for scraps and the nuke vault.  He was going to use Canned Sunshine to lighten up, like vapor levels of lighten, the 2nd Star League.  He had a mixed cluster or two of forces on that planet.

Even after reading the story about Corbett I am still confused. Was his plan to let huntress fall and if so how would that have flown the remaining jag bloodnamed?

Or was his plan to build up a strong force and then relief  huntress and then ride that into the khanship?
With

[Colt Ward]

I got it as a very simple application of a military axiom-  You do not reinforce failure.

The defense of Huntress failed.
The Inner Sphere had shown they had the power to stomp Jag forces on that world . . . but he seemed to hope they did not know where all the Jag worlds were located.
So after the IS strength departed, his Jaguar remains would need to stave off any of the Clans that came for a absorption, formal or informal.
Unlike Trent & Paul, he wanted to re-establish what had been lost/destroyed.

[Sjhernan3060]

I got it as a very simple application of a military axiom-  You do not reinforce failure.

The defense of Huntress failed.
The Inner Sphere had shown they had the power to stomp Jag forces on that world . . . but he seemed to hope they did not know where all the Jag worlds were located.
So after the IS strength departed, his Jaguar remains would need to stave off any of the Clans that came for a absorption, formal or informal.
Unlike Trent & Paul, he wanted to re-establish what had been lost/destroyed.

Oh ok I think I got it. Tranquil was going to be the new homeworld and he was willing to abandon all other territory to consolidate there. However with no genetic repository how could he rebuild a warrior caste? Was there a backup on tranquil?