“Save” the Jags

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

One of the problems/advantages with the Jags is that they never got a write up on the culture, their way of doing things, their view of their history.

  I do agree. CSJ was already dead long before a lot of the books were out.
  I discovered BT when a friend started playing a computer game with Clan Omnis. I wasn't so interested in sci-fi at the time but I'd watch him play before friends showed up for the weekend rpg session. Years later, when a group at the local game club started a BT campaign, I was like "What are all these 'mechs?" I wasn't familiar with the IS at all and never paid enough attention to the computer game's backstory. Since I didn't have the books, I relied on the backgrounds of the factions through the other players and pretty much didn't really care -I was a wargamer and all I needed was the rules to play, not the backstory...
 
  The above being said, I don't understand why people want to rewrite the story. Political factions come and go all the time, so I can only shrug and move on. From my point of view, the BTU factions survive far too long to make sense.

[Talen5000]

I don't know about other sources, but in the Twilight of the Clans novels, Lincoln was described as being a tactical genius but not particularly skilled at strategic-level operations, which was a liability for someone of his rank because it to him micromanaging things.

He is indeed mentioned as a tactical genius in Grave Covenant, and for some reason the people there equate Tactical Genius with Strategic Dunce. There are a couple of write ups where he is referred to as a Strategic Genius, but for the most part it isn't mentioned. Or contradicted, at least, explicitly.

Consistency has ever been a problem and the same lack of information that lets players infer their own interpretation of the Jaguars also works for authors. Which explains the  somewhat contradictory stance on artillery and freebirth troops, amongst others.

Reading a bit between the lines, and trying to make sense of all the issues involved, my reading would be that Lincoln Osis was indeed a tactical and strategic genius. The IS feared an Osis led invasion and did so with cause. As ER62 says, he would have been a terrifying war leader

Where he failed...and what caused him to make mistakes...was his personality. He was a glory hound, an ego maniac and he lacked confidence in himself. He was as likely to make a decision based upon how he believed it would reflect back on him as he was to make one based on tactical or strategic values. An example is when he tried to emulate Howell on Tukayyid or tried to shift the blame for the failures of Luthien and Tukayyid, or ordered the Sixth to abandon its positions simply because be felt defensive tactics would make him look bad. He was a Khan able to sacrifice his own Clan to make himself look good.

There are also a couple of scenes which make me think he was losing support within the Clan....that would make sense given a string of high profile failures during his tenure and the blatant corruption he showed by retaining the Khanship after bring elected ilKhan, but it could also just be the way I read it. If so, he would be under a lot of pressure to maintain support inside the Clan as his supporters melted away.

So...whether he was a strategic genius or not would depend on how much of his ego and insecurity he could put aside.

Which...if he were winning...would be easy to do, and so make him doubly dangerous. Its one reason why an Osis led invasion was considered so dangerous for the IS.

But...when losing...putting his ego aside would be difficult, and he would increasingly make decisions based on his own need for glory and political security. Making him a huge liability for his own Clan during Bulldog and Serpent. Which he was.

But as I said, that's my reading and the info we have is vague enough others are possible. But I like this as it provides, to me, a better explanation for the Jaguars collapse than "they were so unprepared for the invasion they had spent years preparing for and would have launched months previously that they armed themselves with guns"

[nckestrel]

Some joined the Brotherhood of Randis, others founded the Fidelis, the rest found the death they hoped for or found new lives to build. 

And Astrokazy and Solaris.

[Sjhernan3060]

 
 
  The above being said, I don't understand why people want to rewrite the story. Political factions come and go all the time, so I can only shrug and move on. From my point of view, the BTU factions survive far too long to make sense.

This whole thread started when I reread a passage in FM warden clans mentioning how the shark khan attempted to save the jags but was thwarted. I find the idea of a “ saved” and absorped Jaguar clan into another clan to make the stronger a cool idea. 

[CJC070]

The great thing about battletech is the people and especially the writers remember.  CSJ May be “dead” but their influence and several customs live on.  Like mercenaries there are always stories and ways to bring them back even if you think that there is no chance at all.  The Jags in no small way have been saved and preserved.  At least the idea that someone was willing to absorb them is what save the Ice Hellions and the ELH.  To me that is a heck of a legacy.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Phelan took the entire 6th Jaguar Dragoons wholesale as abtakha.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

This whole thread started when I reread a passage in FM warden clans mentioning how the shark khan attempted to save the jags but was thwarted. I find the idea of a “ saved” and absorped Jaguar clan into another clan to make the stronger a cool idea.

  That would have been a sound business investment -Buying out failed Clans that have proven to be bankrupt. Those failed Clans would be retrained and re-educated on why they failed, and swallow the bitter pill of learning from their mistakes.
  There is a problem with that, as once they are absorbed, they are no longer part of their former Clan, so unless the new owners are plotting some Machiavellian stunt of resurrecting CSJ as a puppet to gain another vote on the Clan Council, I don't see a point in it. A "new and improved" CSJ would still have all the baggage of the corrupt and failed old CSJ and would have an uphill climb just to prove themselves. call them anything else, make up a new set of silly rituals and move forward. The past sucked, stop embracing it.

  There are no Smoke Jaguars, they are either full members of new Clans that took them in or Bandit Caste, separate from the Clans and unrecognized. Keeping silly rituals is just cultist self-deception, there is no CSJ to make them Smoke Jaguars. Swallow that bitter pill and move on.

[Talen5000]

There are no Smoke Jaguars, they are either full members of new Clans that took them in or Bandit Caste, separate from the Clans and unrecognized. Keeping silly rituals is just cultist self-deception, there is no CSJ to make them Smoke Jaguars. Swallow that bitter pill and move on.

First...there is more than enough vaguery and contradictions and loose ends in the text that would easily allow for the Jaguars to make a comeback. That is even without allowing for the Clans usual falback...most Clans appear to have made plans for a doomsday scenario with plans to evacuate the Cluster and relocate to some sanctuary. As the Clan has experienced several falls prior to 3060, one could presume the Jaguars might have made such plans.

Any Clan marked as destroyed can therefore theoretically make a come back.

Of course, that says nothing about if they did make such plans, or enacted them if they did, but the possibility is there.

Second, given the commentary of Paul Moon in Rock, it seems fairly likely that the Fidelis will soon announce themselves as the Smoke Jaguars and that they have always seen themselves as such. There is indeed a Clan Smoke Jaguar and one that arguably is the only legitimate Clan of Kerensky in the Inner Sphere. That legitimacy, if it exists, opens up several interesting possibilities for the Clan

We'll have to see how things pan out in the ilClan era though.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

First...there is more than enough vaguery and contradictions and loose ends in the text that would easily allow for the Jaguars to make a comeback. That is even without allowing for the Clans usual falback...most Clans appear to have made plans for a doomsday scenario with plans to evacuate the Cluster and relocate to some sanctuary. As the Clan has experienced several falls prior to 3060, one could presume the Jaguars might have made such plans.

  Much is up to the whims of the writers. Yes, CSJ experienced several severe failures prior to their demise...and learned nothing from those errors, other than to blame somebody else.

Of course, that says nothing about if they did make such plans, or enacted them if they did, but the possibility is there.

  I have doubts, considering CSJ considered themselves infallible.

There is indeed a Clan Smoke Jaguar and one that arguably is the only legitimate Clan of Kerensky in the Inner Sphere. That legitimacy, if it exists, opens up several interesting possibilities for the Clan

  I had to take an aspirin after my eyes rolled so hard. CSJ delusions are why they were crushed in the first place and any Clan that failed to learn from CSJ's numerous unforced errors and inherent flaws deserve the same fate.
Kerensky built the Clans on a foundation of lies; Lies about the Star League, lies about the IS, lies about the very purpose of the Clans. Cut through Kerensky's egomania and demand for worship, and there isn't much left -The Clans were pawns, and convinced to be proud of being pawns.
  With all the uniform historical data available in the IS about the SL, the Clans still have no clue about the SL, the same way people in Comstar had no clue about Comstar, despite all the historical records readily available.

[Talen5000]

  Much is up to the whims of the writers. Yes, CSJ experienced several severe failures prior to their demise...and learned nothing from those errors, other than to blame somebody else.

Osis blamed others. Not every Jaguar appears to have taken that road. As for what the Clan learned...as we know nothing about these falls other than they took place, we cannot say what lessons have been learned.

Did the Jaguars have an Exodus option? Maybe. Maybe not. The precedent has been set if the authors ever want to pull that trigger and there are enough loose ends that such an option could be easily slotted in.

Same for the other Clans...though arguably the Ice Hellions and Blood Spirits would be problematic given the circumstances. Problematic, but not impossible.

The possibility exists.

Which is the point. You wanted to make the definitive assertion that the Jags are dead.

A couple of years ago, there would have been little argument. The Exodus option would still be available, and all the loose ends from TotC would still be there.

Today, such an announcement seems short sighted. We know the history of the Fidelis, we know where they came from and we know a little about what they have. Sixty years of peace, and their own enclaves, armies and manufactories.

And with Paul Moon talking about the re-emergence of the Jaguar, it seems likely that they will soon enough proclaim themselves as Clan Smoke Jaguar once again.

So...as things stand...the announcement that there are no Smoke Jaguars seems unlikely to be 100% factual.



 

[Sjhernan3060]

No.  They were fielding captured IS mechs that had been fixed with captured IS weapons and equipment.  The point was that those galaxies were so hard up that they didn't have the gear to upgrade any of their mechs to Clan weaponry.

Wow even straight weapon swaps was beyond them???

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

So...as things stand...the announcement that there are no Smoke Jaguars seems unlikely to be 100% factual.

  A handful of people claiming to be legitimate doesn't make them legitimate. There is no Clan Smoke Jaguar, no matter how many pretenders claim they are. The other Clans don't acknowledge them, which is half the battle, as Clan Wolf in Exile proved.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Wow even straight weapon swaps was beyond them???

All the weapons were already allocated for front line unit, so no, they couldn't.

[Talen5000]

  A handful of people claiming to be legitimate doesn't make them legitimate. There is no Clan Smoke Jaguar, no matter how many pretenders claim they are. The other Clans don't acknowledge them, which is half the battle, as Clan Wolf in Exile proved.

CWiE was Abjured.
The Jags weren't

But maybe you'll be right. Its still premature to make the declaration until we find put what Moon and the Fidelis are doing.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

CWiE was Abjured.
The Jags weren't

  There are no Jags.
  There are active Clans who ignore the abjuration. A law that isn't obeyed isn't much of a law.

[Sjhernan3060]

All the weapons were already allocated for front line unit, so no, they couldn't.

I re read the first twilight of the clans book and the garrison commander of huntress prior to Russou Howell straight up said he had vintage SLDF gear from the caches. He was supplementing that with captured combine mechs. So wouldn’t anything they put in the field be mixed tech? I doubt those combine mechs cake in mint condition!

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The captured mechs were being cannibalized for parts- stripping the most damaged ones to get enough weapons and armor to put the others back into working order.  The best stuff they'd have had were intact Royal mechs or modern anti-Clan designs that had been restored to working order.

Look, if you want to do an AU scenario where they do have mixed tech IS designs and Clan omnimechs, that's cool.  But the answer to what happened in canon is not going to change unless Catalyst publishes a book that reveals that they really did have a cluster of omnis that they broke out during the fight.

[Sjhernan3060]

The captured mechs were being cannibalized for parts- stripping the most damaged ones to get enough weapons and armor to put the others back into working order.  The best stuff they'd have had were intact Royal mechs or modern anti-Clan designs that had been restored to working order.

Look, if you want to do an AU scenario where they do have mixed tech IS designs and Clan omnimechs, that's cool.  But the answer to what happened in canon is not going to change unless Catalyst publishes a book that reveals that they really did have a cluster of omnis that they broke out during the fight.

I think we are saying the same things. If say they got an Akuma missing an arm and a missile pod they would have swapped in a SLDF vintage replacement if no clan material was handy right?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Pretty much.  But that wouldn't make it a Mixed Tech design.  "Mixed Tech" specifically refers to a mech, battle armor suit, ground vehicle, or ASF that uses both Clan and Inner Sphere equipment.  A retrofitted Akuma would likely be something of an oddball given that the Jaguars probably wouldn't have a lot of spare MRM launchers or ammo lying around, so they'd either have to find some way to jury-rig something else or just leave it as deadweight.

[Sjhernan3060]

Pretty much.  But that wouldn't make it a Mixed Tech design.  "Mixed Tech" specifically refers to a mech, battle armor suit, ground vehicle, or ASF that uses both Clan and Inner Sphere equipment.  A retrofitted Akuma would likely be something of an oddball given that the Jaguars probably wouldn't have a lot of spare MRM launchers or ammo lying around, so they'd either have to find some way to jury-rig something else or just leave it as deadweight.

Ok thank you for that! Mixed tech = purpose built fusion of clan and IS tech such some of the Republic of the sphere designs in the dark age. Frankenmech = the reclaimed Akuma in my example which would have been a true bastard mix of Combine, 2nd line clan tech and or SLDF parts to get it running

[Sjhernan3060]

No.

Alternate idea for you instead of flipping out and wasting their strength in the Burrock Absorption the Spirits pounce a year later on the Jags.

One of the items that I think is important to note is that Osis was not a able to sway his fellow khans ( mainly because he assumed that the other khans would flock to help him...) a canny politician could have fired up the notoriously hot headed Schmidt Of the blood spirits that IS had declared themselves the new star league AND that a new royal black watch was in the homeworlds! Her ancestors were in the OG black watch and if he would have tweak that she prob would have dropped the entire blood guard to exterminate the new black watch as a matter of honor

[Precentor Scorpio]

How many stars do you think a Jaguar Cluster would normally have?

From Sarna.net I get the impression that each full-strength cluster should have at least 18 stars.  Just wondering what the fans think.
thank you

[Colt Ward]

Ok thank you for that! Mixed tech = purpose built fusion of clan and IS tech such some of the Republic of the sphere designs in the dark age. Frankenmech = the reclaimed Akuma in my example which would have been a true bastard mix of Combine, 2nd line clan tech and or SLDF parts to get it running

Or you are looking at early when Clan weapons were coming out, they put a cERPPC on some SLDF Royal design . . .

Heck, if you wanted to give them a leg up- say that Akuma is missing its ERPPC?  give it a Enhanced ERPPC dusted off from some cache.

[CJC070]

How many stars do you think a Jaguar Cluster would normally have?

From Sarna.net I get the impression that each full-strength cluster should have at least 18 stars.  Just wondering what the fans think.
thank you

A typical cluster is 60 - 75 mechs so I would say 18 stars (90 mechs) is or their larger clusters.

[Precentor Scorpio]

From Sarna eighteen stars seem to be more ground elements.  So may be 12 mech stars or 15 mech stars.  Also, its possible that some trinaries could be two mech stars and one elemental star without identifying the trinary as a mixed unit.
Again my impression.  But if a Jaguar player was to create a cluster for their unit, how many ground combat units would you use/have.

Thank you

[Sjhernan3060]

Or you are looking at early when Clan weapons were coming out, they put a cERPPC on some SLDF Royal design . . .

Heck, if you wanted to give them a leg up- say that Akuma is missing its ERPPC?  give it a Enhanced ERPPC dusted off from some cache.

I was thinking in the run up to task force serpents attack

[Sjhernan3060]

I finally got a copy of the “ dragon roars”scenario book after more than 20 yrs and one of the items that stood out to me was that it was estimated that “ two to two and half galaxies” escaped bull dog did that include the force brendon Corbett DID NOT take to huntress?

[Colt Ward]

From Sarna eighteen stars seem to be more ground elements.  So may be 12 mech stars or 15 mech stars.  Also, its possible that some trinaries could be two mech stars and one elemental star without identifying the trinary as a mixed unit.
Again my impression.  But if a Jaguar player was to create a cluster for their unit, how many ground combat units would you use/have.

Thank you

The only thing we ever get outlining their structure is Tau on Wayside before they get ground down . . . and the implication is they are a bit understrength to be 'new & deployable' that quickly.  IIRC, each cluster was 3 mech trinaries, an Elemental trinary and some Aero though they did not play a large part in the story.  I do not think they  even had command stars.

Then again, they might not have been understrength.  When the 4th Jaguar Dragoons were rebuilt, they only had 3 Omni trinaries that Phelan took- should have been SOME Elemental support even if all the Aero got shot down as the Warden Wolves burned in system.  Then again, they could have been Supernova Trinaries but they did not get their strength in FMWC IIRC.

So, the Jags could have been using a lot of the 'average' cluster- 3 mech trinaries, 1 Ele/Inf Trinary, & 1 ASF binary/trinary.

Sjhernan- yes IMO it would . . . it would also include those who became the Dark, who went to Randis, and other places.  IIRC Hang Mehta showed up with roughly two galaxies.

[Sjhernan3060]

Sjhernan- yes IMO it would . . . it would also include those who became the Dark, who went to Randis, and other places.  IIRC Hang Mehta showed up with roughly two galaxies.

Thank you! So Corbett peeled off about half a galaxy of Troops 2 to 3 clusters?

Also after re reading both the huntress focused novels and scenario book I was unclear if any of the jag reinforcement droppers were shot down in route to huntress?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't recall seeing it mentioned either way.  Once Task Force Serpent got to the planet, their naval assets disappeared and weren't mentioned for the rest of the story.