“Save” the Jags

[BrianDavion]

I'd be betting on the smoke Jags absording the remains of the Fidilis Defenders, which apparently had been aping their behavior and rituals anyway

[Sjhernan3060]

This is how it begins...

Dun dun dun!!!

[Sjhernan3060]

Getting back on topic I want to sketch out a clear game and narrative scenario:

Leading candidate goes something like this:

Osis asks for help as written but khan mavali fletcher of the hells horses who has been searching for a way to vault his clan to invader status steps up.

Fletcher declares osis unfit for the ilkhanship since his lack of foresight and leadership allowed the inner sphere access to the homeworlds. He challenges osis on his fitness for command and defeats him.

Now at this point he could requests a trial of absorption against the jags. What are the rules around that again?

Or he could just dramatically declare his intention to " wipe out the barbarians" and head to huntress sans council approval.

So with that being said what would the horses need to slay the serpents?

The serpent fleet was battered after the 2nd naval engagement with the horses expertise in infantry and battle armor tactics can we assume they would have the skills to attempt to board and capture the remaining serpent warships?

To finish the ground fight I woukd bring alpha keshik along with beta Galaxy command and the 666 assault cluster a total of 7 trinaries of elite crusaders in top flight equipment with experiance in all manner of terrain.

I want to bump this scenario up again and explore the legal aspects of it

[Middcore]

I want to bump this scenario up again and explore the legal aspects of it

Legality is might makes right and whatever the Grand Council is willing to let you get away with.

Consider the Jaguars' "absorption' of Clan Mongoose. They refused to actually use any of the Mongoose genetic legacies, effectively making the Absorption an Annihilation. If legality meant anything, surely there would have been some objection raised to this by the other Clans on principle and for the waste of it (we all know how much the Clans hate "waste"!), yet source material records not a peep. But remember that Ulric not letting the Clans continue the invasion of the IS for 15 years was a "genocide"!

Weirdo was talking about the Clan use of artillery when he wrote this, but I think the spirit of it applies here:

...there is nothing more truly Clan than to look at someone, declare them Wrong for violating some rule they've never heard of, and using that as a reason to kill them using the most expedient and rule-breaking method possible.

Certainly there are things the other Clans could have done to aid/save the Jaguars and if they wanted to they would have shrugged off whether it was "legal," but like the Mongooses before them, nobody liked the Jaguars enough to bother.

[Sjhernan3060]

Legality is might makes right and whatever the Grand Council is willing to let you get away with.

Consider the Jaguars' "absorption' of Clan Mongoose. They refused to actually use any of the Mongoose genetic legacies, effectively making the Absorption an Annihilation. If legality meant anything, surely there would have been some objection raised to this by the other Clans on principle and for the waste of it (we all know how much the Clans hate "waste"!), yet source material records not a peep. But remember that Ulric not letting the Clans continue the invasion of the IS for 15 years was a "genocide"!

Weirdo was talking about the Clan use of artillery when he wrote this, but I think the spirit of it applies here:
Certainly there are things the other Clans could have done to aid/save the Jaguars and if they wanted to they would have shrugged off whether it was "legal," but like the Mongooses before them, nobody liked the Jaguars enough to bother.

Very good points! Which is why I think khan fletcher could have pull this off. If he had defeated osis and went in on his own to defeat serpent for “
Honor” who would object to that?

[Middcore]

Very good points! Which is why I think khan fletcher could have pull this off. If he had defeated osis and went in on his own to defeat serpent for “
Honor” who would object to that?

Anybody who thought the Horses would gain too much from it.

Generally I don't want to argue too much on the plausibility of what appears to be alternate history fanfic for your favorite Clan. Fundamentally though I have a couple of issues with your scenario:

1. The premise that bailing out and presumably absorbing the mauled remnants of the Jags at this point the vaults the Horses to "invader Clan status" is seriously flawed. If any other Clan had thought there were serious material gains to be made by saving the Jags they would have tried. Best case what you get for your trouble is maybe a rump galaxy or so of mixed frontline and second-line troops, no fleet, no IS holdings, and Huntress with all the infrastructure already destroyed. 

2. Even with good infantry/BA capturing multiple WarShips is not a simple matter and that it's more likely for most of the Serpent ships to simply be destroyed outright, with possible loss/serious damage to some of the Horses ships also, and any that the Horses did manage to capture would probably require too much repair to make any difference in the balance of power against other Clans for the immediate future.

You also seem to not be accounting at all for Task Force Bulldog. I don't know if a complete TO&E for Bulldog has ever been published but if we presume it includes the entirety of all the units which had detachments fight in the Great Refusal (see spoilers for list), then seven trinaries is grossly inadequate to take them on.


Units that had detachments fight in the Great Refusal:

10th Lyran Guards (AFFC)
1st Genyosha (DCMS)
Red Lancers (CCAF)
Invader Galaxy (Com Guards)
1st St. Ives Lancers (SIMC)
1st Free Worlds Guards (FWLM)

The Clan Nova Cat command Keshik also fought but it's unclear what other Nova Cat forces were part of Bulldog.

[BrianDavion]

also by time another clan could absorb the jags there wouldn't be an invasion zone LEFT.

[Hellraiser]

There is also the aspect of Vlad & Marthe.

When the other clans tried to join the Invasion, they triggered the Harvest trials to keep the IS to themselves.

If another clan tried to help the Jags after Vlad was saying to let them stand on their own, what are the odds that he or Marthe then chimes in to stop that somehow or start nibbling at the assisting clan.


But as Middcore mentioned, the amount of force needed to deal w/ the rest of Serpent is one thing, but, the amount needed to deal w/ the Bulldog force is entirely another.
That force added in is the kind of thing that would possibly break a single smaller clan, enough to make it ripe for another clan to absorb.

[Sjhernan3060]

After they absorbed the mongoose clan the jags refused to use they bloodnames they where now owners of, only for another clan to eventually do so. Could another clan have done the same with jags due to iffy legal nature of the trial of annihilation against the jags?

[BATTLEMASTER]

After they absorbed the mongoose clan the jags refused to use they bloodnames they where now owners of, only for another clan to eventually do so. Could another clan have done the same with jags due to iffy legal nature of the trial of annihilation against the jags?

If the Clan who got the Jaguar genetic legacies saw any benefit to them, they'd probably use them.  I don't think anything's been published indicating that any Clan has though.

[Sjhernan3060]

If the Clan who got the Jaguar genetic legacies saw any benefit to them, they'd probably use them.  I don't think anything's been published indicating that any Clan has though.

Thanks! And to clarify I should have said not that they did but they could. Which actually sparks another question:

Are the clans really so dense that they actually blame the jags defeat on bad genetics rather than decades of poor resource management?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Is that a trick question?  Have you ever met the Clans?

[Sjhernan3060]

Is that a trick question?  Have you ever met the Clans?

Lol well said

[Flaresnake]

Question? What gives the IlKhan the right to reform an annihilated clan when absorbed and abjured clans have been not the same right. 

[AlphaMirage]

Question? What gives the IlKhan the right to reform an annihilated clan when absorbed and abjured clans have been not the same right.

Same as any ilKhan, any opposed back up their Refusals with force otherwise the motion carries

[Sjhernan3060]

Who was the last jag lore master and did she or he die in the OZ?

[AlphaMirage]

Who was the last jag lore master and did she or he die in the OZ?

Unknown at present but if they were in the OZ (which seems unlikely) they almost certainly went down fighting or BULLDOG would have reported it

[Sjhernan3060]

Unknown at present but if they were in the OZ (which seems unlikely) they almost certainly went down fighting or BULLDOG would have reported it

Good point! So they should have been on huntress or strana mechty when serpent came calling? Leading question but did all lore masters have a Keshik or at least a bodyguard star?

[AlphaMirage]

Not all of them are War Chiefs most are actually fairly 'old' in the Clan terms. Offensive actions are mostly the SaKhan's job with the Alpha Galaxy on the Capital available to answer challenges as needed. Good Khans are in their own or the Grand Council working deals while their Loremasters ensure the Clan's territory is as productive as possible and keeping tabs on the enemy. Its mostly an Administrative and Advisory position although it is the highest of both.

[BrianDavion]

Same as any ilKhan, any opposed back up their Refusals with force otherwise the motion carries

Besides it's easy eneugh for Alaric to say "welp the jags are back" The fidilis means they weren't COMPLETELY wiped out so Alaric could easy say "The Jags are the victor of their trial of annialation"

[truetanker]

Who was the last jag lore master and did she or he die in the OZ?

Yes here.

TT

[AlphaMirage]

Except that Hoyt died in 3052 a full eight years before the Smoke Jaguars were destroyed (temporarily) during the Great Refusal. There had to be a Loremaster between that period and we don't know who they were

[truetanker]

OP asked if they had died in the OZ...

TT

[Sjhernan3060]

OP asked if they had died in the OZ...

TT

True but the article was still helpful! Based on what I read the jags loremaster could float as needed and take command of units as needed but did not have their own set keshik?

[Sjhernan3060]

Was reviewing my great new plastic minis with their great flavor adding character cards and I was pleased to see one of my favs brandon Howell! However while he had been presented before as a more “ reasonable and cautious” his card presents him as a schemer and darn near genocidal in mindset to the IS. So if Howell had survived to lead the jags would they have been even more villainous?’

[BATTLEMASTER]

Was reviewing my great new plastic minis with their great flavor adding character cards and I was pleased to see one of my favs brandon Howell! However while he had been presented before as a more “ reasonable and cautious” his card presents him as a schemer and darn near genocidal in mindset to the IS. So if Howell had survived to lead the jags would they have been even more villainous?’

It seems like a writer got him confused with Brendon Corbett.

[Sjhernan3060]

It seems like a writer got him confused with Brendon Corbett.

Ah that makes more sense

[BATTLEMASTER]

Hmmm, perhaps that should be an errata post?  I don't have that specific product so I don't feel comfortable posting that.

[Sjhernan3060]

Recognizing that it would have required brandon Howell being in operational command as he was as far as I know he was the only jag commander who didn’t just charge… but when the first wave of jag reinforcements ( the adhoc galaxy) arrived would it not have been smarter to drop the bulk of the galaxy to reclaim the command center of manufacturing centers?

[Sjhernan3060]

Recognizing that it would have required brandon Howell being in operational command as he was as far as I know he was the only jag commander who didn’t just charge… but when the first wave of jag reinforcements ( the adhoc galaxy) arrived would it not have been smarter to drop the bulk of the galaxy to reclaim the command center of manufacturing centers?

I was rereading the short story “
Two roads diverged” and it would have been cool to have more POV ( or any from Howell) during the huntress campaign