Zellbrigen and Battle Tactics: How do you resolve conflicting concepts?

[abou]

One of the things that has struck me again and again is how does one resolve the conflict between tactical maneuvers and zellbrigen.  This goes beyond the small-unit engagements for most trials, but references more specifically to a greater tactical situation such as a larger scale battle or the actual conquest of an objective.

For example: Clan invading force A comes up against opposing force B.  Force A being larger decides to send a star of 'mechs on a flanking movement to role up the left of B.  Things seem to be going smoothly, except all the units of B are engaged.  The flanking star now waits patiently for the outcome while the commander wonders if he overbid on his batchall.  What is the point in maneuvering your forces if you cannot take advantage of it?

Essentially, while strategy of an initial campaign seems to have a place, once you get to the tactical stuff in a battle you don't have much.  Sure, an ambush or showing up in an unexpected place might work well, but once battle is joined you can't do much besides direct 1-on-1 fights.  An Inner Sphere commander would position units as best he could to mass fire on a key unit to break a hole in the enemy line, but there isn't much point for the Clans to do the same as long as the stricter forms of zellbrigen are observed.  So then how is that conflict resolved without breaking zellbrigen?

Am I over thinking this?  Hell, even the Clan's system of promotion is based more on individual combat performance in trials rather than one's ability to lead and form winning strategies and tactics.  I imagine that in a hypothetical situation where the disparity in technology was not so great, the invading Clans would have had to have dropped zellbrigen in the initial invasion just to succeed.

[Fallen_Raven]

Well you can preform a flanking manuver to hit the enemies reserves without breaking zellbrigen, but since most of the time you're outnumbered anyway running out of targets isn't that much of an issue. It's a bit of a cliche to role up a flank with a brilliant attack to the side anyway, what you should be doing is using those mechs to extend your line and pick off straggelers.

 And if you get to a point were you have units that can't fight anyone you've hit one of three points; you screwed up and overbid your forces, you screwed up and committed your reserves to soon, or your winning because you've killed most of your enemies. :P

[A. Lurker]

As I see it: A "proper" Clan warrior simply would not normally want to break zellbrigen; it is a dueling code, after all, and as with any formalized duel there are certain things that are just Not Done. You do not bring a knife to a fist fight; you do not challenge somebody to pistols at dawn with the full intent to have them ambushed en route; you do not break zellbrigen. If that means giving up a temporary tactical advantage, so be it; there will be other battles, and the greater the challenge overcome, the greater the glory, too. We are talking about people whose idea of "civilized" warfare involves voluntarily handicapping themselves before the fight has even started here, after all.

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

One thing you can do is maneuver your extra mechs so that once some duels end, your extra mechs can pounce on any enemy mechs that won, and be in an advantageous position.

[Neufeld]

Yes, you are over thinking it.

A clan with strict interpretation of Zellbrigen would probably not bother with tactical maneuvers, while a clan with liberal or opportunistic interpretation would set things up for their advantage (in different way depending on opponent and situation).

[joechummer]

There are certainly tactics that can be used along with zellbrigen.  For a specific, zell-appropriate example:  the "Viper's Maw" maneuver that the Steel Vipers use.  2 columns of OmniMechs break through an enemy line at different places and then immediately release their Elementals to cause all kinds of havoc.  Then the disarrayed defenders are forced to choose between tackling the 'Mechs or getting torn apart by Elementals.  Contrast this to their "Coil" maneuver, which can only be used against dishonorable/bandit foes due to the inherent breaking of zell.

Tactics with zell is more of an abstract thing and not as clearly defined as Spheroid tactics, but it does still exist.  It's just a different mentality.  Even when battles break down into one-on-one duels, battlefield positioning is still important.  For example, a single Star that gets trapped by a whole (heavier?) Trinary is going to either retreat or run into combat with the slim hopes of beating very long odds of taking out 3 or 4 times their own strength, even if they do it one duel at a time.  A better tactician would position his forces so that his troops will encounter either another Star or at worst two Stars.  Besides, you can't hit what you can't see or aren't in range of  ;D Clan tactics are a bit more difficult to visualize on "BattleTech" scale (due to the scale being good mostly for small-scale engagements) but are probably easier to see in "BattleForce" scale.

Also, in Clan vs. Clan combat, Clans do not achieve "conquest" of an objective.  If a Trial of Possession is declared over a factory, for example, the attacking Clan doesn't win the objective by taking physical control of it and eliminating all comers.  The Trial is likely to be fought in an area away from the factory (to minimize damage to the prize), and combat will ensue between the two parties until one side is either annihilated or admits defeat, requests hegira, etc.

[Diablo48]

One other option with a more liberal interpretation of Zell is to arrange your unit positions to make it likely either you or (even better) the enemy will accidentally hit someone they are not dueling to trigger a grand melee which makes that silly flanking maneuver you pulled much more dangerous.

It is of course also an option to throw Zell out the window, but you need a very good reason to do that and a way to prevent the enemy from committing reserves because it is a major violation that will get you in trouble.  There are a handful of ways a Clan can shrug this off in the modern era because there are formations like the Bear's Omega Galaxy that do not practice Zell so if another Clan declares a trial against them they should not be surprised when Zell is ignored, but this is generally a major taboo that will get a commander in a lot of trouble even if they do manage to pull a win out of a hopeless situation.

[Akalabeth]

There's a thread on zellbriggen in the roleplaying board as well, started by myself.
http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,2811.0.html

Personally I find zellbriggen a bit odd. In your average battle for example a force with tanks or infantry which are not bound by zellbriggen can basically do anything they want and mess up with the whole battle while still acting within the rules. Furthermore you get other reports about clans either not adhering to zellbriggen (against hated enemies) or using perversions of traditional zellbriggen (ie Ice Hellion where a star of light mechs duels against one).

If you want tactics, in my thread for example the writer said that a person could potentially duel stars or higher formations against one another. So a cluster could duel a cluster, and within that battle duels may not be adhered to. Which goes somewhat against the waste not, want not mentality, but with some clans it may make sense. Burrock and Blood Spirit aren't going to adhere to zellbriggen when fighting each other, neither is Blood Spirit vs say Star Adder.

To me it's always seemed that it's the ideal form of combat, but that many clans quickly throw it away with any convenient excuse if it suits them.



In another way, zellbriggen and bidding in general is just a convenient way to make battletech battles more meaningful. There's a reason why in 3025 a single lance or a company could conquer an entire planet. For that same reason, a single star of omni mechs can be used to fight trials of possession for some genetic legacy. It's because that's the size of most battletech games! The designers want to make the battles' actions relevant, rather than an abstraction of what is really going on or a smaller part of a greater whole. That would be my assumption anyway.

You can take a lance on lance and have a small meaningful battle. Or you can have a star vs star or even mech vs mech and have it mean a great deal. A person doesn't need 30 mechs on the board and a large group to have a battle of any significance.

[Callista]

Indeed, one of the interesting planetary conquests for the Jade Falcons in the periphery had a Trial over I believe a house between a retired Phoenix Hawk pilot and a Kit Fox.   Straight one on one duel and rather eloquent, if ending in a rather unpleasant manner.

[joechummer]

There's a thread on zellbriggen in the roleplaying board as well, started by myself.
http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,2811.0.html

Personally I find zellbriggen a bit odd. In your average battle for example a force with tanks or infantry which are not bound by zellbriggen can basically do anything they want and mess up with the whole battle while still acting within the rules. Furthermore you get other reports about clans either not adhering to zellbriggen (against hated enemies) or using perversions of traditional zellbriggen (ie Ice Hellion where a star of light mechs duels against one).

If you want tactics, in my thread for example the writer said that a person could potentially duel stars or higher formations against one another. So a cluster could duel a cluster, and within that battle duels may not be adhered to. Which goes somewhat against the waste not, want not mentality, but with some clans it may make sense. Burrock and Blood Spirit aren't going to adhere to zellbriggen when fighting each other, neither is Blood Spirit vs say Star Adder.

To me it's always seemed that it's the ideal form of combat, but that many clans quickly throw it away with any convenient excuse if it suits them.

In another way, zellbriggen and bidding in general is just a convenient way to make battletech battles more meaningful. There's a reason why in 3025 a single lance or a company could conquer an entire planet. For that same reason, a single star of omni mechs can be used to fight trials of possession for some genetic legacy. It's because that's the size of most battletech games! The designers want to make the battles' actions relevant, rather than an abstraction of what is really going on or a smaller part of a greater whole. That would be my assumption anyway.

You can take a lance on lance and have a small meaningful battle. Or you can have a star vs star or even mech vs mech and have it mean a great deal. A person doesn't need 30 mechs on the board and a large group to have a battle of any significance.

1. Vehicles and conventional infantry are very rare among the Clans (with a few exceptions).  The places where they are concentrated the most are usually in enclave garrisons, and the attacking commander should already be prepared for them to be included in the defender's bid.

2. Vehicle crews and infantrymen, while they aren't bound by by zellbrigen like other units, are still Clan warriors and thus adhere to the concept of honor.  Sure a tank crew might be able to "mess up the whole battle," but they would likely not shoot an already-dueling opponent in the back, for example.  That's not exactly honorable.  But will they attack an already-dueling unit head on if they have a good shot?  Absolutely.

3. Throwing away zell when confronted by hated enemies?  Certainly.  Zellbrigen is only used when fighting honorable opponents (unless you're a Star Adder and use zell against EVERYONE, even on bandits).  For example, if you're a Ghost Bear, those Hell's Horses have NO honor because they killed one of your Clan's most beloved Khans while he was in the middle of giving a speech.  That's just rude.  Similar examples underscore the bitter rivalries between other Clans.

4.  The Hellions' concept of honor is a bit different than other Clans due to their evolution of tactics and 'Mech options.  They send 5 'Mechs against a single target, and the first Hellion to score a HIT is considered to have "won" the duel, even if they get shot down later.

5. A whole Star dueling another whole Star or an entire Cluster dueling another Cluster en masse just does not happen.  The essence of Clan combat is the one-on-one duel, and that only devolves into a melee once someone breaks the rules.  For a Star-on-Star or Cluster-on-Cluster duel to occur outside of a Hellion-on-Hellion Trial, these engagements would have to start out as melees from the beginning, which would imply both groups went into combat with the idea knowing the rules were already broken, and no honorable Clan warrior is going to stand for that.  And a Cluster-on-Cluster "duel" wouldn't really work, seeing as how a Cluster's component Binaries/Trinaries are likely spread out across a large area of terrain, and thus the scale wouldn't really work.

6. Small Clan vs. Clan engagements aren't purposefully small to "make the actions meaningful."  They are small because they minimize casualties and thus reduce waste.

[Akalabeth]

2. Vehicle crews and infantrymen, while they aren't bound by by zellbrigen like other units, are still Clan warriors and thus adhere to the concept of honor.  Sure a tank crew might be able to "mess up the whole battle," but they would likely not shoot an already-dueling opponent in the back, for example.  That's not exactly honorable.  But will they attack an already-dueling unit head on if they have a good shot?  Absolutely.

You can't have it both ways. Either they're zellbriggen or their not. A guy could be dueling another guy and 10 tanks can gang fire him with everything they have. There's nothing in zellbriggen to prevent that, and no reason for the other side to cry foul. Same with elementals or other conventional forces. One can say "it's not fair, waaah". But there's nothing in the rules to prevent that.

There's nothing in the rules to prevent backshots either for that matter during zellbriggen.

6. Small Clan vs. Clan engagements aren't purposefully small to "make the actions meaningful."  They are small because they minimize casualties and thus reduce waste.

Yes, we all know the in-universe reasons for why they're small. But outside the context of the history, why they're small is fairly obvious. It's because battletech games themselves are fairly small! The fluff should fit the game, or else why are you playing the game in the first place?

Star Fleet Battles as another example is a game about original Series Star Trek. The game is probably best played as one on one duels. Why? Because that's how the series was portrayed as well. The game should fit the fiction.

It's no surprise that the fiction fits the game. 12 mechs taking a planet. 5 mechs in a trial of possession. I could be giving the writers/designers too much credit, but that's my interpretation.

[joechummer]

You can't have it both ways. Either they're zellbriggen or their not. A guy could be dueling another guy and 10 tanks can gang fire him with everything they have. There's nothing in zellbriggen to prevent that, and no reason for the other side to cry foul. Same with elementals or other conventional forces. One can say "it's not fair, waaah". But there's nothing in the rules to prevent that.

Honor and zellbrigen aren't the same thing.  You can still fight with honor without using zellbrigen.  10 tanks against a single 'Mech is a bit overkill.  To quote from Roar of Honor regarding bidding and the manner in which Clans wage warfare:

“To use every bit of your strength to achieve a goal shows no honor. The blood in our veins as Ghost Bears is red with honor. If I outnumber you four to one and attack and defeat you, what then? Nothing. There is no honor in such a cheap victory. If I bid down and take you with even odds, there is some honor in that. But if I bid the least possible amount of force and beat you with that, then I have achieved the greatest honor. If you learn nothing else, learn that honor is the lifeblood of this Clan.”

[TigerShark]

The concepts of Zellbrigen are taken a bit too literal for some players. We've always played Clan differently, using Zellbrigen as a civilized duel between to champions on the field as opposed to some ritualized "pairing off."

A good example would be the movie "Troy," during the scene where Achilles' cousin Patrocles fights Hector on the beach. The two armies are heavily engaged, but all of the sudden, two men of considerable skill pair off for a one-on-one duel. Everyone is aware of the "rules" of this conflict and simply stand on the sidelines until it is resolved. This doesn't mean that warfare isn't fought as normal: It's simply a sign of respect.

During the ebb and flow of battle, two armies squaring off would have artillery support and vehicles firing at 'Mechs. Aero fighters could weaken advancing 'Mechs and once they reach a similar force of 'Mechs, they begin firing. They generally know to pair off and not focal fire, but there is no formal declaration as such. The only formal declaration might be between the officers (Star Commanders), who then request that no others intervene and all artillery support be waived for their particular area.

This is a more realistic representation of how Clan warfare is fought and doesn't conflict with Zellbrigen, even in Level 1. Remember that a Clan like Goliath Scorpion still uses an ABUNDANCE of Huitzilopochtli and Bowmen. These obviously have a function in combat and aren't manufactured for the sole purpose of hunting the minute amount of bandit caste members in the area. The Clans aren't ****** and are quite aware of how to fight. They simply don't make use of focal fire like the IS do, which they're quickly adapting to.

[Akalabeth]

Honor and zellbrigen aren't the same thing.  You can still fight with honor without using zellbrigen.  10 tanks against a single 'Mech is a bit overkill.  To quote from Roar of Honor regarding bidding and the manner in which Clans wage warfare:

“To use every bit of your strength to achieve a goal shows no honor. The blood in our veins as Ghost Bears is red with honor. If I outnumber you four to one and attack and defeat you, what then? Nothing. There is no honor in such a cheap victory. If I bid down and take you with even odds, there is some honor in that. But if I bid the least possible amount of force and beat you with that, then I have achieved the greatest honor. If you learn nothing else, learn that honor is the lifeblood of this Clan.”

Yeah but what do tanks care about honour? With the possible exception of Hell's Horses, no guy driving a tank is EVER going ot get a bloodname, nor is he ever going to be admitted to the genepool I would think. Most tankers are probably freeborns or trueborn washouts.

Also what is personal honour compared to the honour of the clan? If you're fighting to say preserve one of your clans important holdings, and defeat is not an option then sure your star of 10 tanks will gang fire on some hapless foe. I could be mistaken but I don't really think honour is all that important to a tanker (save HH again). At best it's a self-indulgence, but ultimately you're a fourth-class warrior where only the unaugmented infantry man is less important and you're driving machines that typically have paper thin armour and aren't expected to last very long. Best you can hope for is to die in a victory for your clan.

[ShockaTime]

Yeah but what do tanks care about honour? With the possible exception of Hell's Horses, no guy driving a tank is EVER going ot get a bloodname, nor is he ever going to be admitted to the genepool I would think. Most tankers are probably freeborns or trueborn washouts.

One ghost Bear tanker managed to earn a bloodname (Aleksandr Jorgensson), although other than that I can't think of any, but it seems to be at least remotely possible.

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

I would call him a special case, being of Jorgensson and Kerensky genes. He is only in a tank because of an injury that prevents him from piloting a mech. He was a ristar before the injury.

[joechummer]

Yeah but what do tanks care about honour? With the possible exception of Hell's Horses, no guy driving a tank is EVER going ot get a bloodname, nor is he ever going to be admitted to the genepool I would think. Most tankers are probably freeborns or trueborn washouts.

Also what is personal honour compared to the honour of the clan? If you're fighting to say preserve one of your clans important holdings, and defeat is not an option then sure your star of 10 tanks will gang fire on some hapless foe. I could be mistaken but I don't really think honour is all that important to a tanker (save HH again). At best it's a self-indulgence, but ultimately you're a fourth-class warrior where only the unaugmented infantry man is less important and you're driving machines that typically have paper thin armour and aren't expected to last very long. Best you can hope for is to die in a victory for your clan.

Honor among Clan warriors is important, even down to a conventional infantryman's mindset.  The Clans' mentality is not "Win by any means necessary"; no, that is the corrupt Spheroids' way of thinking.  To be Clan is not only to win, but to win HONORABLY and to win by using the least amount of waste.  Unless they are ordered to fight for CLAN honor rather than PERSONAL honor, a Star of tanks isn't going to pump all of its firepower into one hapless 'Mech.  Legal?  Yes.  Honorable?  Not really (unless you ask a Blood Spirits tanker defending York).  A more realistic breakdown would be for maybe two or three Points to target the same 'Mech and the other Points to attack a different target. 

And not all Clan vehicles have paper-thin armor.  Wasn't there some tournament game at a con where a single HH tank took out a few Stars of 'Mechs?  I don't think that's going to happen if you're driving an LAV.

[Diablo48]

And not all Clan vehicles have paper-thin armor.  Wasn't there some tournament game at a con where a single HH tank took out a few Stars of 'Mechs?  I don't think that's going to happen if you're driving an LAV.

Very true, if memory serves there is at least one Clan tank that can eat a NAC 10 to the front plates without trouble.

[Akalabeth]

Honor among Clan warriors is important, even down to a conventional infantryman's mindset.  The Clans' mentality is not "Win by any means necessary"; no, that is the corrupt Spheroids' way of thinking.  To be Clan is not only to win, but to win HONORABLY and to win by using the least amount of waste.  Unless they are ordered to fight for CLAN honor rather than PERSONAL honor, a Star of tanks isn't going to pump all of its firepower into one hapless 'Mech.  Legal?  Yes.  Honorable?  Not really (unless you ask a Blood Spirits tanker defending York).  A more realistic breakdown would be for maybe two or three Points to target the same 'Mech and the other Points to attack a different target. 

Four-Six tanks attacking one mech? Ten tanks? What's the difference. It's still a lot of tanks. Or have you forgotten that a point of vehicles is two vehicles not one?

Very true, if memory serves there is at least one Clan tank that can eat a NAC 10 to the front plates without trouble.

Yes as is a common trend, the subsequent units after the first batch were much more optimized than the former. I believe most or all of the tanks in 3067 have average or better armour on their chassis in stark contrast to the majority of units in 3060.

[A. Lurker]

While tank crews may not be bound by zell (which makes some sense -- you already have multiple warriors in most vehicles, so the notion of 'dueling' takes a hit right there), they (a) are not protected by it either and (b) still need to be actually included in the bid in the first place to matter. A tank that has been bid away -- as most of them likely will be if the MechWarriors on both sides have their way -- is not a combatant, and one that has not is a valid target for everybody on the opposing side, concentrated fire and all if need be.

Also note that while tanks may be free to work together against enemy forces in general, they still do not get to simply invite themselves into an ongoing duel. "In this solemn matter, let no one interfere" and all that.

[joechummer]

Four-Six tanks attacking one mech? Ten tanks? What's the difference. It's still a lot of tanks. Or have you forgotten that a point of vehicles is two vehicles not one?

No, I haven't forgotten.  All I'm saying is that TEN tanks being able to fire on the same target at the same time isn't very realistic for several reasons, even with the entire Star is disregarding zell.  You have terrain to consider, and you have the idea that grouping that many vehicles that close together to get a bead on the same target is a recipe for strafing runs, artillery strikes (keep an eye out for those Nagas! :D), etc.

Besides, a MechWarrior who is in range AND in LOS of that many tanks on the same turn is clearly doing something wrong to begin with  ;D

[joechummer]

While tank crews may not be bound by zell, they (a) are not protected by it either

Exactly.  Can we say "tank punting"?  :D

[Akalabeth]

No, I haven't forgotten.  All I'm saying is that TEN tanks being able to fire on the same target at the same time isn't very realistic for several reasons, even with the entire Star is disregarding zell.  You have terrain to consider, and you have the idea that grouping that many vehicles that close together to get a bead on the same target is a recipe for strafing runs, artillery strikes (keep an eye out for those Nagas! :D), etc.

Artillery is laughably unreliable in battletech, and a strafing run can get no more than 4-5 hexes. If an aerospace fighter strafes those tanks it means it'll be getting shot up not a mech. I don't see LoS for 10 tanks as any sort of problem. Especially when you have tanks like the Enyo with 25 hex range ER LL.


And for that matter, how many books actually have Clans doing zellbriggen in the middle of a battle? There MIGHT'VE been something in the Grand Refusal, I can't remember. But I otherwise don't recall any book that has people fighting one on one in a major engagement. Mind you I've not read a lot of books.

Point being, if zellbriggen is so important, do we actually see it in fiction?? Beyond Trials of Position or Bloodright?

[TigerShark]

Not that I recall, outside of the example I provided earlier. The Clans (at least in fiction) don't tend to square off and pair up before a battle. It's something unspoken for the most part. We do see it in fiction, but there are very few verbal challenges being issued. Most Clan warriors simply pick one target and hammer on it until it's gone. Not much more complex than that.

[A. Lurker]

Point being, if zellbriggen is so important, do we actually see it in fiction?? Beyond Trials of Position or Bloodright?

It actually does come up quite a bit, yes. Personally, I actually figure that honor is only part of it.

The other part is that no Clan warrior likes a kill-stealer. :D

[Akalabeth]

Point is, in my experience from what I can recall I don't remember most battles in clan fiction being described any differently than in any other novel. But I could be wrong. The only time they really mention it is when it doesn't happen, like when they gang-fired VSD and somehow a guy in a crap medium mech held everyone off.

[joechummer]

We do see it in fiction, but there are very few verbal challenges being issued. Most Clan warriors simply pick one target and hammer on it until it's gone. Not much more complex than that.

Exactly.  Formal challenges during battle tend to be unit commanders or higher ups, but most other challenges occur when another 'Mech shoots at you.  You then shoot back, and this continues until one 'Mech is unable to function (or bows out, requests hegira, their commander calls for a retreat, etc.).  Then the winner maneuvers into position and fires upon another 'Mech to initiate another challenge.  Lather, rinse, repeat.