Author Topic: MotW: Javelin  (Read 5672 times)

InsolentMyrmex

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #60 on: 29 October 2024, 21:51:48 »
Love this guy, probably my favorite light mech outside of the Panther. Like the Enforcer I am tired of the Davions having all these mechs that I like so much  :angry:
"The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!"
(It/Its)

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14497
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #61 on: 29 October 2024, 22:04:25 »
would the Javelins made by Jalastar in the FS be visually distinguishable from those made by Stormvanger prior to the Amaris coup?

I would assume so since they were not part of the Project Phoenix "resculpt them" process in universe.

It's possible they got the plans from the factory ruins.
I mean, that is how the FWL got the Spider/Guillotine into production IIRC.
They raided New Earth in the 1st SW & went home w/ the plans to put them into production there.

Might just be that Davion, having 3000? Javelins to start with & a lack of free mech lines didn't have anywhere to restart it.
It could also be that the Javelin plans happened to be on the Helm Core along w/ all the crap from 2750/3058 & with the renaissance they were able to expand & build a line finally.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12390
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #62 on: 29 October 2024, 22:40:25 »
A just-as-good question is how did the Fed Suns manage to get them back into production?  Did Jalastar Aerospace completely reverse-engineer the design, coming up with new molds from scratch that would produce parts that resembled the original as closely as possible?

cheers,

Gabe

i tend to assume that it was something of the sort. that the AFFS commands contracted out to factories to produce bespoke spare parts whenever stockpiles of old or cannibalized spares ran short for these OOP but still in wide use designs. with the factories reverse engineering sample parts so they can either make new ones in small batches, or adapt existing parts for something else to work as a replacement. and that Jalastar Aerospace kept the plans from these contracts on file, and someone realized "hey, we've got like 95% of the part blueprints needed to build javelins in our records".
followed by them approaching the AFFS with a plan to build a new production line, and seeking funding.
« Last Edit: 29 October 2024, 22:42:00 by glitterboy2098 »

JadeHellbringer

  • I just work here, man.
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 22044
  • Third time this week!
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #63 on: 29 October 2024, 22:43:47 »
When it comes to working on these articles, I find that relying on TRO:3025 is... not aw aste of time, per se, but unless another source cooborates details it's hard to rely on what it says- a lot of that one is contradictory, nonsensical, or just plain wrong (famously, the Zeus' debut year comes to mind). This includes production numbers- how many Archers, Stingers, etc. are out there. I know the book sometimes gives us a black and white number, but... it's a VERY unreliable source in-general. Always treat it as a flawed document that requires backup sources before anything fluff-based can be taken as fact.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5253
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #64 on: 30 October 2024, 10:00:36 »
A just-as-good question is how did the Fed Suns manage to get them back into production?  Did Jalastar Aerospace completely reverse-engineer the design, coming up with new molds from scratch that would produce parts that resembled the original as closely as possible?

New Dallas memory core probably had the plans.
I have spoken.


Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14497
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #65 on: 30 October 2024, 12:24:30 »
New Dallas memory core probably had the plans.

I mentioned Helm above.
New Dallas wouldn't be relevant, it was back in production long before it was found.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6888
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #66 on: 30 October 2024, 15:01:39 »
Love this guy, probably my favorite light mech outside of the Panther.

I've often wanted to see them re-do the panther, making it faster, but keeping the ppc..
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

MarauderD

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4287
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #67 on: 30 October 2024, 15:24:53 »
I've often wanted to see them re-do the panther, making it faster, but keeping the ppc..

Latest iteration is 4/6 (8)/4, does that count?

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14497
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #68 on: 30 October 2024, 15:39:15 »
I've often wanted to see them re-do the panther, making it faster, but keeping the ppc..

Yeah, can't do much w/ that in Intro Tech (Possible, but limited options).
But w/ Standard Tech, very easy with DHS & ES to save enough for a 5/8/5 boost.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

JadeHellbringer

  • I just work here, man.
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 22044
  • Third time this week!
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #69 on: 30 October 2024, 19:17:45 »
Sounds like a great thread to make in Fan Articles.

(Seriously, curious to see what people brew up!)
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12390
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #70 on: 31 October 2024, 04:54:53 »
I've often wanted to see them re-do the panther, making it faster, but keeping the ppc..
you can't really keep the PPC and the SRM4 without sacrificing either speed, JJ mobility, or armor.. though you could just fit the PPC and an extra SHS.

but you can easily fit the LL+SRM4 loadout of the original -8Z panther.. though with only 10 SHS it would have a little more heat issues than that panther variant. but it would get you fairly close to your idea of a faster panther built on a javelin chassis.

Gorgon

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 998
  • The little duchy that could
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #71 on: 31 October 2024, 06:18:41 »
To maybe get this thread re-focused on the Javelin, I made a worskshop threat for all our faster Panther ideas:


https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=86458.0
Jude Melancon lives!

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5253
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #72 on: 31 October 2024, 12:05:02 »
I've often wanted to see them re-do the panther, making it faster, but keeping the ppc..

For introtech, the PNT-9ALAG trades the jump jets for a bigger engine (5/8 move). The standard tech PNT-10ALAG then drops the three extra single heat sinks for an even bigger engine (6/9 move) equipped with double heat sinks. The PPC is also upgraded to an ER. Record sheets for both can be found in Force Manual Kurita.
I have spoken.


gyedid

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2739
  • Always brighter on the other side of the mirror.
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #73 on: 31 October 2024, 21:34:52 »
To maybe get this thread re-focused on the Javelin, I made a worskshop threat for all our faster Panther ideas:


https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=86458.0

Shouldn't there be a Javelin design thread too?

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14497
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #74 on: 31 October 2024, 22:30:44 »
Shouldn't there be a Javelin design thread too?

cheers,

Gabe

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=86363.60;topicseen

Been up a while,  3 pages long
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

MarauderD

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4287
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #75 on: 01 November 2024, 08:46:09 »
For introtech, the PNT-9ALAG trades the jump jets for a bigger engine (5/8 move). The standard tech PNT-10ALAG then drops the three extra single heat sinks for an even bigger engine (6/9 move) equipped with double heat sinks. The PPC is also upgraded to an ER. Record sheets for both can be found in Force Manual Kurita.

The 10ALAG is an eye opener:  fastest ground speed panther that isn’t stuck with an Er PPC and single heat sinks.  Depending on the year released, candidate for best panther ever.

That being said, I’d take the 11A Fire Javelin every time and twice on Tuesdays!

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14497
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #76 on: 01 November 2024, 13:29:36 »
That being said, I’d take the 11A Fire Javelin every time and twice on Tuesdays!

In a duel or a Recon Lance, sure, in a Fire lance, maybe not.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5253
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #77 on: 01 November 2024, 14:47:57 »
I'm rather disappointed I didn't pull a Javelin (or two) from my salvage boxes. Gotta have more than one.
I have spoken.


Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14497
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #78 on: 01 November 2024, 15:01:52 »
I'm rather disappointed I didn't pull a Javelin (or two) from my salvage boxes. Gotta have more than one.

I own to of the old Cititech-2E Javelins already so while not the "prettiest" they work for me, the KS gave me a 3rd in the Lance box.

For Salvage, I got a Highlander-IIC & a Chameleon that I didn't own previous to the KS so that gives me 2 of each then.
I also got 2 tanks that I'm working on getting replaced since I didn't get any bonus boxes like they said we would get.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Sabelkatten

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7123
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #79 on: 01 November 2024, 17:15:38 »
I've actually got an old Ral Partha metal Javelin. :-)

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5253
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #80 on: 01 November 2024, 17:29:14 »
I've actually got an old Ral Partha metal Javelin. :-)


As do I, but I really like the new sculpt.
I have spoken.


SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8401
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #81 on: 07 November 2024, 03:15:16 »
So the model with 2 Streak-2's is easy to explain, it would have come in when the rules allowed those to fire Infernos. Why it got a follow up makes no sense expect if CGL needed more designs.

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14497
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #82 on: 07 November 2024, 11:38:48 »
So the model with 2 Streak-2's is easy to explain, it would have come in when the rules allowed those to fire Infernos. Why it got a follow up makes no sense expect if CGL needed more designs.

How/Why?

You only have 1 Ton of Ammo for either the SRM6 or the Pair of Streak-2s.

Why would I care about having Streaks if I just turned around & used the Streak bin for Infernos?

I could just keep the standard SRM6 model & swap ammo between the 2 bins so I can fire 12 HE or 12 Inferno at my choice.

The 3050 Javelin really makes no sense whatsoever.

Even if you can use Infernos, your STILL better off swapping over all of the launchers to Streaks then & carry 1 ton of Streak & 1 ton of Inferno.

The only way you can justify the 3050 Javelin-10P is that you somehow were in a unit that had a NARC launcher & you wanted to support the NARC mech while also having ammo efficiency of Streaks as a back up for long missions. 

And frankly that is a stretch to use that as justification,  in almost every case you are better off keeping both SRM6s or swapping over to Quad racks of Streak-2s.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

JadeHellbringer

  • I just work here, man.
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 22044
  • Third time this week!
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #83 on: 07 November 2024, 14:32:45 »
Absolutely agree. The utility of the design to use multiple ammo types was totally lost with the switch to the half-measure of Streaks on the JVN-10P means you have that ton of ammo for each launcher type- and can't really switch anymore for either. Whatever you brought is what you brought. Obviously the Inferno change means there's no alternate type for the Streaks anyway, but the other rack is either stuck with standard ammo, or with a gimmick type (inferno, smoke, etc.) and nothing else. If anything, the AFFC should have gone the 11P's route and swapped it ALL for Streak-2 racks, four total, rather than just on one side.

Either way, it means the 10P just doesn't have the flexibility it had anymore previously, in exchange for a slight uptick in ammo efficiency- not something the Javelin ever really struggled with much to begin with. It was an attempt to fix a problem that didn't really exist, and created new ones along the way. Not a terrible upgrade in the vein of some like the Panther or Goliath, but sometimes simple is better- don't fix what isn't broken, you know? Simple things like ferro to gain armor, or endo to free up a little weight for a defensive laser, etc., that I'd have been all for, but this was just a downgrade disguised as a new toy.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14497
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #84 on: 07 November 2024, 15:02:13 »
The 10P shouldn't exist & the 11P should have been the Streak option all along.

NOW, that said, what WOULD have made huge sense is if they had instead flipped that 1 SRM-6 over into a NARC launcher.

THAT would have been a hellish unit in 3050 being able to spot for it's own SRM rack as well as the rest of the Company being loaded with NARC SRM/LRM racks.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27321
  • Need a hand?
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #85 on: 07 November 2024, 15:47:03 »
More mobile than most of the mechs that got NARC upgrades in 3050, too.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

nerd

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2393
  • Nunc Partus-Ready Now
    • Traveller Adventures
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #86 on: 07 November 2024, 16:11:00 »
So the model with 2 Streak-2's is easy to explain, it would have come in when the rules allowed those to fire Infernos. Why it got a follow up makes no sense expect if CGL needed more designs.
Also, New Toy Syndrome in action.

The Marshals of the AFFC liked their old Javelins, and wanted to up gun them. Paired Streak launchers to replace the SRM-6 rack is a modest upgrade, and would make sense for an AFFC preparing to finish off the Capellan Confederation or defending against the DCMS.
M. T. Thompson
Don of the Starslayer Mafia
Member of the AFFS High Command

Liam's Ghost

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8142
  • Miss Chitty finds your honor rules quaint.
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #87 on: 07 November 2024, 16:16:32 »
Full streak makes the bean counters happy.

"Hey look, since the launchers are so ammo efficient, we can also cut your procurement allotment for ammunition to cover the extra cost of the launchers and missiles! Plus a little extra. Why they're so good you won't even need half your original allotment of ammunition, right?"
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Tegyrius

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 261
  • They Are Not Our Friends
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #88 on: 07 November 2024, 19:15:23 »
THAT would have been a hellish unit in 3050 being able to spot for it's own SRM rack as well as the rest of the Company being loaded with NARC SRM/LRM racks.

*excited Valkyrie and Commando noises*

That would be a disproportionately effective boost in the firepower of AFFC light companies.
Some places remain unknown because no one has gone there.  Others remain unknown because no one has come back.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8401
Re: MotW: Javelin
« Reply #89 on: 08 November 2024, 04:55:46 »
Absolutely agree. The utility of the design to use multiple ammo types was totally lost with the switch to the half-measure of Streaks on the JVN-10P means you have that ton of ammo for each launcher type- and can't really switch anymore for either. Whatever you brought is what you brought. Obviously the Inferno change means there's no alternate type for the Streaks anyway, but the other rack is either stuck with standard ammo, or with a gimmick type (inferno, smoke, etc.) and nothing else. If anything, the AFFC should have gone the 11P's route and swapped it ALL for Streak-2 racks, four total, rather than just on one side.

Either way, it means the 10P just doesn't have the flexibility it had anymore previously, in exchange for a slight uptick in ammo efficiency- not something the Javelin ever really struggled with much to begin with. It was an attempt to fix a problem that didn't really exist, and created new ones along the way. Not a terrible upgrade in the vein of some like the Panther or Goliath, but sometimes simple is better- don't fix what isn't broken, you know? Simple things like ferro to gain armor, or endo to free up a little weight for a defensive laser, etc., that I'd have been all for, but this was just a downgrade disguised as a new toy.
Because at the time Inferno was the only alternate ammo for SRM's and only twin tubes, including Streak-2's could fire them, SRM-6's couldn't.