Author Topic: WSotW - Texas  (Read 29511 times)

Sjhernan3060

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #90 on: 01 October 2018, 12:28:26 »
Can any one please post some Picts of the 3057 Texas? How does it compare to the old sculpt?

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #91 on: 01 October 2018, 12:49:34 »
From the Iron Wind Metals page:

2750 Texas:


3057 Texas:
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #92 on: 01 October 2018, 13:09:16 »
The 3057 seems huge. Like a big slab of um Texas but I can’t find many more Picts of the 3057 model year...

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #93 on: 01 October 2018, 13:41:15 »
Try Camo Specs?
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #94 on: 02 October 2018, 09:05:57 »
If I end up in a close-range brawl when using a Texas or a similar vessel that has the fore/aft gap, I like to reserve enough thrust to perform an ECHO at the end of the Movement Phase if I find a foe trying to exploit the vulnerability.
What does ECHO mean in this context?


All the firepower is concentrated into a rather small number of actual bays, so there are limits to how many targets a Texas can engage at once. Losing any bays to critical hits also robs the Texas of a disproportionate chunk of firepower, so any crit-generating weapon you can throw at one is a good thing.
Didn't you just get finished telling us how this thing is so rugged that there's basically nothing out there that could hit the thresholds for scoring crits?
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #95 on: 02 October 2018, 09:18:09 »
For some weird reason I kept thinking the Texas had better focus firepower when they weren't in the Bays that were added on when they switched to Battlespace style stats from the original info from TRO2750.  I don't think they were using the armor threash hold thing either.  I guess that's why the armor on the smaller ships and some larger ones are only in double digits.  Individual shots from the capital weapons were not bouncing, they just subtracted from the Armor.
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #96 on: 02 October 2018, 09:49:52 »
What does ECHO mean in this context?
Quote
Emergency Change Heading Operation. It's in StratOps. Long story short, a vessel that keeps a few thrust points in reserve can turn one hexside just before the weapons phase, in order to bring weapons to bear on smaller craft that could otherwise outmaneuver it every single turn. It's kinda like a torso twist for large craft. I'll let you look up the details.

Didn't you just get finished telling us how this thing is so rugged that there's basically nothing out there that could hit the thresholds for scoring crits?

No, I got finished saying that five years ago. It would be helpful to quote the actual text so I know what on earth you're taking about. Betcha there's some reference to bracketing in there.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #97 on: 02 October 2018, 11:09:48 »
Could you all explain the big change that bracketing caused?

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #98 on: 02 October 2018, 13:16:31 »
No, that would take too long. Allow me to summarize:

Bracketing allows a capital gun bay with multiple weapons to 'spread out' their shots, reducing concentrated damage in favor of accuracy. In game turns, the bay reduces damage in order to gain a to-hit bonus, with more guns letting you dial down the damage more, in exchange for more accuracy, topping out with 4-gun bays. The end result is that bays with multiple smaller guns are far more useful than single big guns. A McKenna can stay at Extreme range and even though fully bracketed shots do less damage, it will be hitting reliably at that range. As an example of how much of a game changer this is, go look art the stats for the Davion II and Lola III destroyers and imagine a fight between them without bracketing. Now imagine the same fight, knowing the Lola is fast enough to stay at long or extreme range, and unlike the Davion, it can score hits on a regular basis from that far out. I'll let you look in StratOps for the details.

This is why quad HNPPC turrets are considered the gold standard as they can bracket to the maximum allowable level while doing almost the max damage possible in those circumstances, and does so with the fewest guns, meaning less fire control mass. The big thing about the armor of the Texas is that it is thick enough to take fully bracketed 4-NPPC hits without getting thresholded, so an opponent must either accept that he will have to pound the Texas to pieces the hard way(while likely taking threshold crits in return), dial down the accuracy and hit much less often, or close and let the Texas boost his damage as well, possibly bringing that big NAC/40 to bear.
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #99 on: 02 October 2018, 15:14:56 »
It also works for AA, which makes those light Star League ships with NL banks actually able to reflect their fluff.
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #100 on: 02 October 2018, 15:22:11 »
Naval lasers have multiple anti-fighter tricks. The Texas's only real weakness is that most of those lasers are concentrated into a small number of very large bays. Whatever fighters it does target are pretty much borked, but it will have difficulty hitting many birds per turn, so eliminating a swarm will take time. Fortunately, with all that armor...you've got the time.
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #101 on: 02 October 2018, 15:26:10 »
Yeah, but IIRC the answers were slowly released- I just remembered the differences in MegaMek when I was able to bracket from range on the aforementioned McKenna.
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #102 on: 02 October 2018, 15:28:10 »
I have no idea what you just said.
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #103 on: 02 October 2018, 15:44:14 »
Sorry I was trying to do three things at once, lol.

Yes, there are more ways now to deal with fighters than when AeroTech originally came out.  Some came with AT2 and more came with errata and revisions.  When AT originally came out IIRC fighters made old Star League pretty much targets against fighters- the fluff about the ships did not match up with what the rules actually caused to happen.  Now for me it could have been that the more advanced rules like bracketing were slowly introduced through MegaMek so I saw a gradual increase in how capital ships combat swarms of fighters.  One of my first experiments with bracketing was with the Werewolf against Lyran fighters & the Mjolnir to play the attacks against Tharkad.
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #104 on: 02 October 2018, 18:58:31 »

Didn't you just get finished telling us how this thing is so rugged that there's basically nothing out there that could hit the thresholds for scoring crits?

Plenty will threshold a Texas. 40 points of damage is enough.

As noted bracketing reduces the number of weapon systems that can at long range.

And then you get natural 12 rolls which go through anything. The bane of armoured bricks.

Finally the Texas is extra vulnerable to crits because it has relatively few weapon bays. Working from memory... take a look at a Black Lion 2. There are like 9 bays to crit. A Texas has like 5? So anything that does crit is going to be proportionately more damaging.

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #105 on: 02 October 2018, 19:19:28 »
Never thought about that - which is weird, because that's a serious consideration for me on mechs.
So a ship could be designed with a disproportionate amount of light guns and it would actually have something to show for it.
The Texas is probably a pretty good baseline for a ship that is relatively tough without stalling gameplay.
There's actual choices on how to engage it.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #106 on: 02 October 2018, 20:07:46 »
Never thought about that - which is weird, because that's a serious consideration for me on mechs.
So a ship could be designed with a disproportionate amount of light guns and it would actually have something to show for it.
The Texas is probably a pretty good baseline for a ship that is relatively tough without stalling gameplay.
There's actual choices on how to engage it.

So in the word of Blake war and in pretty much everything I have read regarding sled or clan warships they are very vulnerable to swarms if fighters. Is that more true for the Texas now?

Sjhernan3060

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #107 on: 08 October 2018, 19:27:13 »
The only way I can think of to beat a Texas is to sacrifice something large in a broadside to broadside engagement while something else hits the bow or stern


I'm not sure how anyone likes the idea of tactics that start with the loss of at least a BattleCruiser  :(


Is it a toss up between this and the McKenna in a straight fight or does one have an edge? With nearly all the Texas (texai?) gone in the current era is there a clear replacement for it or is this sadly a relict of the past?

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #108 on: 09 October 2018, 14:40:34 »
McKenna wins fairly comfortably. The Texas is not part of the 300 point broadside club.

A pair of heavy cruisers should kill a Texas without lost or fancy tactics.

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #109 on: 09 October 2018, 14:48:08 »
McKenna wins fairly comfortably. The Texas is not part of the 300 point broadside club.

A pair of heavy cruisers should kill a Texas without lost or fancy tactics.

How is the best way to use a Texas, then? With a horde of smaller stuff to deal damage while it is the focus of enemy firepower?
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #110 on: 09 October 2018, 16:55:51 »
McKenna wins fairly comfortably. The Texas is not part of the 300 point broadside club.

A pair of heavy cruisers should kill a Texas without lost or fancy tactics.

Which is why I still favor retconning it to have two gun batteries of heavy naval gauss rifles and four gun batteries of light naval gauss...if an excuse is needed, just say that the files used for the 2750 tro didn't have naval gauss rifles (which is true as naval gauss wasn't a thing back when that came out)...

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #111 on: 09 October 2018, 17:10:33 »
So 6 batteries of the worst guns in the game? Check.

In SLDF terms if you want a gunship get a cruiser. They use NACs and have a low cargo ratio.

Battleship tonnage gets you abilities. For example SLDF (as opposed to Hegemony) battleships can fight effectively at extreme range. Nothing else can, but that takes weight.

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #112 on: 09 October 2018, 17:48:03 »
Slightly off topic...

Combat in the Age of the Hegemony

Extreme Range

Gunnery 4 + Angle of Approach 2 + Extreme Range 6 = 12. I hope I make the ECCM roll. Hey wait. Why are you evading +2.

Long Range

Okay base 10. And you are still evading +2. Plus your ECM.

Medium Range

Okay. You have stopped evading. Base 8 plus ECM. Whale on each other with NACs.

Combat in the Age of the Star League

Extreme Range

Gunnery 4 + Angle of Approach 2 + Extreme Range 6 = 12. ECM and you are evading +2. See that Hellcat II? She just made your ECM go away. Dial bracketing to -3. And I need a 11 to hit you and you can't hit me. Oh I am using lasers and PPCs. I can do this all day.

Long Range

You really want to do this? You are going to stop evading and take a shot with your long ranged NACs?
Gunnery 4 + Angle of Approach 2 + Long Range 4 = 10. So you need 10 + my ECM.
I need 7s. In fact I will do more damage more consistently if I dial bracketing back to -2 and roll for 8s. Oh. You want to evade again. I guess I will just shoot you at 9s.

Medium Range

Oh you made it. Good on you. And you managed to chase away my Hellcat II.
So you need 8s plus my ECM.

I need 8s plus you ECM. But I get to adjust my level of bracketing after my ECCM roll. So while your To-Hit may jump out to 11. I can keep mine at 8. Alternatively if I roll well I can increase my accuracy to -3. But statistically at this range I am best of using -1 so expect me to hang around 7.


I hope this illustrates the difference between the Monsoon/Farragut and the Texas/McKenna. Note the Houses operated without Bracketing up to the Jihad which is why all their ships are essentially brawlers.

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #113 on: 09 October 2018, 17:56:22 »
So 6 batteries of the worst guns in the game? Check.

Never said it would be limited to only the side arcs, and 4 gun batteries of light naval gauss can bracket and do as much damage as 4 gun batteries of heavy naval PPC's for far less heat (and far more mass)...and when using detailed ranges, they outrange the heavy NPPC's...heavy naval gauss don't have quite the range or bracket abilities, but still would help make the ship different from most others...and in fact, when reviewing most of the cruisers of the SLDF, they can bracket just as well as many of those NAC batteries you mention below...

Quote
In SLDF terms if you want a gunship get a cruiser. They use NACs and have a low cargo ratio.

Well, except for the Sovetskii Soyuz (which also needs a retcon) and Cameron (which was a not what it was supposed to be)...

Quote
Battleship tonnage gets you abilities. For example SLDF (as opposed to Hegemony) battleships can fight effectively at extreme range. Nothing else can, but that takes weight.

And a retcon Texas can still do that, as I describe above, and would also be a member of that 300 point broadside club you mentioned before...

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Sjhernan3060

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #114 on: 09 October 2018, 18:21:09 »
So 6 batteries of the worst guns in the game? Check.

In SLDF terms if you want a gunship get a cruiser. They use NACs and have a low cargo ratio.

Battleship tonnage gets you abilities. For example SLDF (as opposed to Hegemony) battleships can fight effectively at extreme range. Nothing else can, but that takes weight.

This is very helpful. So fluff wise esp in the invasion era a Texas is great to have but not worth the resources to build more? Since they were so rare I assume no new Texas were part of 200 to 300 new warships the clans built post Klondike?

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #115 on: 09 October 2018, 19:31:59 »
200?  Maybe REFIT . . . but not totally new bids . . .

Count up the Fredasa, Nightlords, Leviathans and I want to say 20-25% of Yorks.  Then you have how many ever Peregrines, Mjolnir and maybe a few other 1 off.

Everything else was refits- rest of the Yorks, Conquerors, Liberators, Whirlwinds, etc.
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #116 on: 09 October 2018, 19:53:01 »
200?  Maybe REFIT . . . but not totally new bids . . .

Count up the Fredasa, Nightlords, Leviathans and I want to say 20-25% of Yorks.  Then you have how many ever Peregrines, Mjolnir and maybe a few other 1 off.

Everything else was refits- rest of the Yorks, Conquerors, Liberators, Whirlwinds, etc.

I need to double check my TRO 3057 but i am pretty sure it said the clans built 200 + new

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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #117 on: 09 October 2018, 20:28:29 »
I think someone put the number of Texas class ships that were said to have survived the exodus with the number of Texas class ships known to exist among the clan fleets and determined there were too many clan Texas for them all to be star league era vessels, but I don't remember the source, and that could easily be a result of poor accounting by people monitoring the exodus fleet before it left the Inner Sphere.

EDIT: Just went through the field manuals, which list four active Texas in clan service post Bulldog. Adding the Smoke Jaguars' Veiled Huntress, the Prinz Eugen, and the Bismark, we get seven, which is the number said to have left on the exodus. TRO 3057 said five remained in service with the clans at the time, and two had been lost during the exodus civil war. This fits with later canon if we assume later clan records listed the Bismark as destroyed during the exodus civil war (rather than its actual fate) and the fate of the Prinz Eugen was misinterpreted by Comstar's second hand account, or maybe the Clans unwillingness to talk much about their prison ship.

Either way, the only way a new texas might have been built is if one was destroyed before that, to keep the numbers straight. Of those, the Prinz Eugen, Mountbatton, Bismark, and Falcon's Nest* were all definitely star league era vessels.

*probably definitely. The source of the Falcon's Nest's age comes from the first Somerset Strikers sourcebook. So... yeah. 

I need to double check my TRO 3057 but i am pretty sure it said the clans built 200 + new

The original quote from TRO 3057 was a guess by Comstar, and it ranged from 50-300 ships. It was relatively early, and they were still in the dark about a lot of the clans' abilities.
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #118 on: 09 October 2018, 20:36:51 »
Well.  If it's not retro conned (which likely will),  old Fredesa Class Corvette info says this.
Quote from: TRO:3057 Fredasa-Class Corvette / Raider
The Fredasa is one of several small WarShip designs first
built by the Clans in the mid 30th century
If you don't count upgraded Vincent Mk 42, Carrack Class Transport, Liberator Class Cruiser (formerly the Avatar-Class). Nightlord and Fredasa are No#1 and #2 of those new warship designs. I honestly don't want count them, but its all up CGL staff to decide.

Other ones would be #3 Molniya (2951), #4 Peregrine-Class Corvette (2969), and #5 the Corone (2915)

Leaving possiblity of 2 more Clan Warships we hadn't heard of before. I doubt we'd get more but one can dream.

Back on subject, the Texas only had 52 ships made.  I though when I originally read it, that those ships were named for American states.  However, time marched on...so much for theme.  xp
« Last Edit: 10 October 2018, 06:57:01 by Wrangler »
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Re: WSotW - Texas
« Reply #119 on: 09 October 2018, 21:01:31 »
Fan Articles are discussions of canon units as they are. Discussions of "If this unit mounted this it would rock" or "I wish it carried this" or "CGL should totally retcon so that it carried what I want" all belong in Fan Designs, please. C:-)
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