Author Topic: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie  (Read 23603 times)

marauder648

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Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« on: 30 June 2016, 21:56:42 »
Mackie - Father of Titans.

“One of the tanks opened fire.  Its shot was true and hit the Mech just above the right hip.  Everyone in the brightly lit bunker seemed to hold their breath as all the readouts fuzzed into snow at the blast interference.  No damage!  A piece of steel no thicker than my finger, strengthened by radiation casting techniques and impregnated with a sheet of woven diamond fibres, had stopped cold an armour-piercing shell.  That same shell would have gone straight through a third of a meter of normal steel….”

“…The tank operator was sitting at his remote control panel next to me.  I’ll never forget the expression on the young man’s face.  Outside, Kincaid had disabled the last tank.  As he stood over it, he raised the Mech’s right foot and brought it crashing down onto the tank.  Before the hulk had a chance to explode, Kincaid twisted the Mech’s foot deeper into the tank’s carcass.  Next to me, the operator of the tank was trying so hard not to show his fear that tears were streaming down his cheeks.”

“It hit me that hit me that my colleagues and I had just turned loose one of the most powerful weapons ever conceived by man, but we were celebrating like giddy children.  While my companions jumped up and down with glee, that poor boy was trying to hide the fact that in the instant his screens went black, he had wet his pants.”

Those words by Professor Htov Gbarleman indicate the sheer psychological fear of facing a Mech and the impact that the Mackie had.  After being in top secret development for over 30 years under the auspices of firms like Krupps, Ford and Skobel who worked under orders from Director General Jacob Cameron to make a viable weaponised industrial Mech.

The combination of breakthrough’s in Myomer development as well as new types of armour and decades of work on systems like the early neurohelmet’s that made the machine work. 

When the first prototype stepped out of its gantry under the command of Colonel Charles Kincaid on Terra in 2439 into a combat test against four drone tanks the future of warfare was changed utterly and irrevocably.

By modern standards the first ever Mech would be woefully primitive, the early engine and control systems were larger, heavier, more bulky, less efficient and less reliable, but this is only to be expected of a prototype, but even then the test was a complete success, the prototype Mackie destroyed the four drone Merkava tanks in short order.

With this success the Mackie went into production still under the tightest secrecy and was eventually made public in the most public way when Macke was used against raiders from the Draconis Combine on the world of Styx with the raid being crushed, quite literally in some cases, by elements of the 801st Heavy Armoured Regiment in 2443.  The result was everything the Hegemony wanted, fear and shock and just how advanced they were compared to the other houses and then envy as all the other Houses sought their own Battlemech’s. 

The first House to get their hands on the plans was House Steiner in an audacious raid in 2455 which netted them the technical specifications.  This then started the spread of Battlemech technology amongst the other houses with either stole it off one another or in House Davion’s case, traded with the Lyrans for it.
This started the march of Battlemech technology that continues to this day and saw the Mackie or cloned versions of it spread to every state in the Inner Sphere.  But as more modern machines came into service most of these were retired, but the Hegemony, either out of respect for the grandfather of Mech’s or because they had been built in huge numbers and were easy to upgrade, retained theirs.

Whilst the Mackie never got a Royal variant, they were progressively upgraded throughout their long career whilst in service to the Hegemony Militia.  With a Skobel factory on Terra still producing them in small batches right up to the end of the First Star League, the Mackie fought at the League’s birth and death.  The Skobel factory that produced the Mackie was destroyed by vengeful Amaris troops who had seen their forces defeated several times by ‘primitive’ Mackie forces and the Amaris war was hard on the design.

By the time General Kerensky liberated Terra, there was barely a hundred left to take into EXODUS with his forces, and half of those were junk. This marked the final tolling of the bell for the design.  With its factory in ruins, and almost no existing variants left in House service the surviving machines marched into the long night of EXODUS and finally disappeared from the Inner Sphere.

Design.

Because there’s basically a few flavours of the design I’m going to give details on both the first Mackie’s design and the last.  As was expected with a prototype things were large and bulky. 

The Mackie 5S, the initial prototype design (and the one stolen by the Lyrans and then cloned by EVERYONE), could hit 56kph.  But to do this it needed a massive 360 rated engine.  This massive primitive engine weighed 33 tonnes whilst its primitive cockpit was also heavier at 5 tonnes.
The armour was also of an earlier, heavier type and despite being slathered with 20 tonnes of the stuff, it only had average protection by modern standards.

9/20/31/20 (10/10/10)
24/24/28/28

But for its time this made the ‘box with legs’ a veritable fortress that no force in the Inner Sphere had a counter for.

A bit of head canon thinking here, perhaps one of the advantages of the Mackie over tanks was simply its height.  Tanks are built to take opponents of their own type on.  They have well protected fronts and the front of their turret is well armoured.  But if something is firing down on their upper hull, this tends to be bad for the tank crew.  And with its height advantage, the Mackie is shooting down onto a tank most of the time.  Just personal thoughts but you never know!

When the Lyrans stole the 5S’s plans the Hegemony were already looking at newer designs, the 6S was more a weapons swap and retained the primitive cockpit, engine and armour.  But the later 7, 8 and finally the 9H all had modern components and protection and firepower went up.  The 9H had protection equalling the much later Atlas.

9/32/50/32 (10/11/10)
32/32/41/41

Thanks to 19 tonnes of modern armour whilst retaining the same speed as well.

Variants

5S – A machine that can truly claim to go “I am the Alpha.” For it was the first, the 5S is the Progenitor of every Mech that walks in the Battletech universe.  By modern standards its laughably bad for an assault Mech.  But in the decades following its introduction, it was the Lord and Master of all it surveyed.  With a PPC in its left arm and an AC-5 in the right the final punch was a large laser buried in the chest.  The AC-5 had a ton of ammo in the adjacent torso but it had a neat little trick too.  The Mackie could flip its arms and fire both the PPC and AC-5 backwards.  I don’t know if this was an intended feature but considering how slow the Mackie was, it’s quite possible. 

With its heavier engine, armor and cockpit the Mackie wasn’t efficient and ran hot with 17 heatsinks to keep it cool that would struggle under the load of combat and movement.  But still, considering what it is, what it represents this machine was a HUGE quantum leap in technology.

6S – More a kissing cousin to the 5S as it retains all its primitive features, the 6S was a reaction to the theft of the designs of the 5S by the Lyrans.  Fearing their Mech’s would be outclassed, the Hegemony worked to up gun the Mackie and this was the result.  The PPC was retained but the large laser was removed and replaced with two medium lasers.  Two heatsinks were also dropped but the weight saved then went into an AC-10 and two tons of ammo.  This net increase in firepower then made the 6S the standard combat model of the Mackie and the 5S was upgraded to take the new gun.  This sadly meant that few actual original 5S’s remained outside of museums and all were gone by the Succession Wars.

7A – As technology marched on so did the Mackie and the 7A was the first to benefit from advances on Mech construction.  Featuring a 300 rated engine instead of the far heavier 360 rated one as well as a normal cockpit and normal armor (with the same layout as the 9H) the Hegemony now had a lot of tonnage to play with.

And play with it they did.  Firepower increased dramatically, with the addition of an AC-20 and a pair of large lasers whilst the arm mounted PPC was retained.  Cooling also was increased with 21 heatsinks added whilst the AC-20 was fed by a pleasant 4 tons of ammo. 

But this was just one variant if the 7 series. Thanks to a huge amount of spares, a roomy chassis built by Ford and ongoing production there was a huge amount of ‘after-market support’.  And the Mackie was customized by various commands to their own purposes.

8B – The 8B is either a cousin of the 7A or a stand alone variant.  Built more for long range the 8B retains the AC-20 and 4 tons of ammo but now features a pair of PPC’s as well as a pair of medium lasers for close in work.  Both the 7A and 8B are formidable machines with a punch at long and short range and really its personal preference on what one you want to take.  One thing of note is that this is the first Mackie to mount CASE to guard its 4 tonne ammo bomb in the torso.

9H – The last Mackie to enter service the 9H is more a mix of the various developments of the machine over the years and is an upgrade of the 8B featuring more advanced technology.  It was this variant that saw service until the last days of the Hegemony and Star League, and it was the 9H that defeated the Usurpers forces.  Like the 7 and 8 variants the 9H benefitted from the megatons of spare parts made for the Mackie, as well as it being a joy to work on with its big roomy chassis.

Keeping the same weapons loadout as the 8B the 9H is armed with a pair of PPC’s and an AC-20 with its yummy 4 tons of ammo.  That ammo is now safely stored in CASE.  Two medium lasers are still there in the belly and now a Beagle Active probe is fitted as well.  All this at the cost of one heatsink for a total of 20.  The end result is a very potent Mech that would stand well in the battlefields of the Succession Wars and I doubt anyone would turn their nose up at it in the Clan Invasion either!  To fit the probe the Mech also sacrificed half a ton of armour but the changes were done intelligently to keep from thinning out everywhere.

9HKR – ‘Kill-Roy’s Little Buddy’ was a unique Mackie 9H variant, and the mascot for the Star Leagues Martial Olympiad’s Desert Section was also its master of ceremonies despite being painted like a clown with its cockpit painted in a yellow grinning face.  Kill-Roy is also the closest we’ll probably ever come to a Royal Mackie.  Out goes the AC-20 and the Beagle active probe, but don’t scream in alarm.  Thirteen double heatsinks are fitted instead of the 20 single’s and in go a pair of LB-10X autocannons, each fed by two tons of ammo stored in each side torso and safely protected by CASE. 

Oh and the medium lasers are still there.  All in all, whilst used for a unique scenario, you could quietly go “Well this is a Royal Mackie now” in a campaign.  The pair of LB-10’s and PPC’s work very well together and realistically, no one would want to be tapped by 50 points of damage if Kill-Roy hit you with everything.

(Please note I got the 7 and 8 from Megamek and am not fully sure of their canocity.)

Thoughts

Of course by modern standards the Mackie is quite quite obsolete, but the 9H would be a superb 3025 machine (just replace the Probe and CASE with heatsinks or lasers).  But when it was introduced, the Mackie was an unholy terror to all who it looked upon.  With far greater armor than the tanks of the time, greater firepower and without its mobility constrained by rough terrain or rivers, the Mackie was without a doubt THE weapon of its time.

And it was a weapon that made an age and changed the face of warfare forever.  Even when the other Houses started their own Mech programmers the Mackie was still a monster, the other early Mech’s of the time were out gunned quite heavily by the big lumbering brute.  The Hegemony could also (and indeed did) simply out build the other Houses and could churn out Mech’s by the hundreds, whilst their production lines lagged far behind. 

And as technology advanced the Hegemony was able to keep pace and either refit or build new Mech’s whilst everyone else still built more primitive equivalents.  Indeed, by the time that the other Houses had their own clones of the Mackie in production the Hegemony had moved on, and those clones, were all of the 5S and would be left behind by the rapid pace of technology.

Fighting one depends on the era, if you’re facing Mackie’s for the first time and all you’ve got is tanks, hope that you outnumber them because they out gun you and have thicker hides and have more mobility in rough terrain. 

With Mech’s it’s a case of concentrating fire, against the 9H you might want to try hitting the side with the AC-20 ammo in it, sure it’s got CASE, but that’s all that’s in the torso save some heatsinks and you’ve a good chance of hitting the ammo.  But the 9H is a meaty machine, equal to an Atlas with weapons covering all ranges, as well as having very good protection.




http://i.imgur.com/BnfKd.jpg






As always, any thoughts, comments criticism etc are most welcome!

*Edited to reflect up-to date info on the 8 and 9 variants*



« Last Edit: 01 July 2016, 10:56:11 by marauder648 »
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Maelwys

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #1 on: 01 July 2016, 03:46:00 »
The 8B has CASE as well according to the Record Sheets. The 9H gets enough space for the BAP by dropping half a ton of armor. Which isn't as bad as it sounds, since that's just 3 points, one from the CT and one from each leg. Its a bit confusing, but the 7A has the 9H's armor, while the 8B squeezes in an extra half ton.

Its a pretty solid design. The ammo bomb in its torso is forgivable with the amount of armor you have to get through, especially with the CASE, but you shouldn't be too surprised if you lose a few that way. Especially on the 9H that randomly moves the heat sinks out of that torso.

I think the comparison to the Atlas is kind of interesting. Similar in many ways, except the Atlas utilizes missiles instead of the PPCs. I wonder if the lower ammo count on the AC20 on the Atlas could be fluffed as trying to avoid late engagement ammo explosions...

editAnd there's why the Mackie seems familiar. The AS7-WSG Atlas (Samsanov) has dual PPCs and a AC20 as well. Only 2 tons of ammo, and no Medium lasers, but 26 single heat sinks.
/edit
« Last Edit: 01 July 2016, 05:26:42 by Maelwys »

Terrace

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #2 on: 01 July 2016, 08:07:02 »
I always like to imagine that the look on that tank operator's face wasn't fear, but tear-streaming-from-the-eyes fury at being made to fight such an obviously rigged match.

I mean, seriously. I bet even Primitive Combat Vehicles could take on whatever he used and get nothing but inconsequential scratches in return.

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #3 on: 01 July 2016, 08:39:37 »
I love running the -9H in Star League forces. I've had success putting it in a close assault lance consisting of said Mackie, a Pillager-1N, Warhammer-6R, and Firestarter--H. The quad PPCs of the Mackie and Warhammer open holes at range, while the triple AC/20s of the Mackie and Pillager are absolutely murderous up close. The Firestarter serves as a general purpose flanker/critseeker/infantry-b-gone/nuisance.
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hawkins180

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #4 on: 01 July 2016, 10:46:38 »
I love the Mackie, in all her forms. She kinda reminds me of the A-10. She's not pretty, she's not flashy, but what she is is brutally efficient.

I sometimes run a New Dallas Militia Lance, with three -9H Mackies and a Rifleman II.  But I'm thinking I may yoink that Close Assault Lance from you Weirdo. I need to put the fear of the Terran Hegemony back into my foes.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #5 on: 01 July 2016, 10:50:27 »
For extra fun, run it in a city, escorted by a single company of bog-standard motor rifle infantry. :)
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hawkins180

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #6 on: 01 July 2016, 11:05:55 »
Oh that is evil  :o I like it.

Truly you are a master of evil.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #7 on: 01 July 2016, 11:14:41 »
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #8 on: 01 July 2016, 11:46:31 »
Mackie, how you tell your opponent your not taking them seriously. Because they can't understand just how the grandfather of mechs can wipe the field of there forces.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #9 on: 01 July 2016, 11:58:23 »
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #10 on: 01 July 2016, 12:05:35 »
As well as being the first 100t BattleMech by nature of being the first BattleMech, the Mackie was also the first 100t 'Mech introduced in the game, courtesy of its appearance in the Tales of the Black Widow scenario book.

The stats of the -5S in the Ghost Units scenario differ from those presented in XTRO Prim I, although the general layout is the same. The TotBW version mounts 3 extra heatsinks due to it being assigned a lighter cockpit and gyro, unlike the XTRO version which has been designed using the Primitive Mech rules. It also got 16 points of armor per ton, just like any other 'Mech at the time, so was more heavily armored than the Prim I version.

Sadly, FASA was up to its usual standard of fact checking common back then and the TofBW version was illegal even for the original design rules. The TotBW -5S had a 4/6 movement capability and 3t gyro despite having a 360 engine; added to that, the internal structure of the arms was incorrectly shown as 7 instead of the 17 for a 100t chassis. No ammo was quoted for the AC, but the design added up to 99t so it was possible to work out the ammo capacity. Finally, only 294 of the available 320 armor points were allocated, so the armor mass could have been reduced while still strengthening the arm protection.

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #11 on: 01 July 2016, 12:11:24 »
The models seen in Tales of the Black Widow had been in a museum for centuries, and who knows where they were before that. I attribute any oddness in their stats to inefficient and ill-advised tinkering by amateurs.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #12 on: 01 July 2016, 15:49:50 »
When I wrote that section of Era Report 2750 I based Kill-Roy's appearance off of a paint job my wife gave one of my Mackie miniatures.

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hawkins180

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #13 on: 01 July 2016, 15:55:08 »
 :o WAIT KILL-ROY IS REAL! ALL HAIL KILL-ROY!

*begins worshipping a Statue of Kill-Roy*
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Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #14 on: 01 July 2016, 19:01:47 »
Aside from being the grandfather of all mechs, it looks like the Mackie also started the trend of using 3/5, standard IS, 19T standard armor for 100 Tonners.

marauder648

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #15 on: 02 July 2016, 00:54:54 »
When I wrote that section of Era Report 2750 I based Kill-Roy's appearance off of a paint job my wife gave one of my Mackie miniatures.

Aaron "Gravedigger" Pollyea

Hah that is COOL :)
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #16 on: 02 July 2016, 10:55:42 »
Also technically came back onto the field of battle in the Inner Sphere during the Jihad, albeit in Primitive Form, with one Lyran and one (Former) FWL Primitive Mech Plant producing a number of Primitive Mackies.


Also, that scenario from Tales of the Black Widow would actually be interesting to play using modern rules. Pair of 2R Archers, Stinger and Wasp vs 2 5S Mackies.

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #17 on: 02 July 2016, 18:03:09 »
I love the Mackie.  But I kinda want to have been at the staff meeting where they decided on the name for the thing.

"So, uh, what are we going to name our giant death robot?  The suggestions have been the Murderbot 5000, the Iron Giant, and Mackie."

"LET'S GO WITH THE THIRD ONE!"
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #18 on: 02 July 2016, 20:06:25 »
Kill-Roy must've put the fear of clowns in more than a few Martial Olympiad contenders...

That grin alone is going to give me some nightmares tonight.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #19 on: 02 July 2016, 20:06:46 »
I want a Murderbot 5000  :(

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #20 on: 02 July 2016, 22:13:55 »
At the ranges the Mackie fights at, it can't really abuse top armor very well unless it's within a single hex or two of an enemy tank-the armor obliquity, as any WoT fan will tell you, is just too great to pierce the top reliably.  If you catch on a commander's coupola or some other protrusion, that's a horse of a different color, but good luck making THAT shot reliably.

The name is obviously a familiar version of McKenna, since we need to celebrate dictators every chance we get :P.

As for the obviously rigged test-match, the success of the Mackie hinged on it's innovative armor-which it had, and the Tanks did not.  Mech proponents justified this on the grounds that nobody else had such impressive protection, but they also neutered the tanks by removing their LRM racks and leaving them with rather anemic autocannon that can't even pen their own brethren from the rear.  Meanwhile, the Mackie had two weapons that could insta-gib a tank.  The test WAS rigged in a sense-the Mackie was effectively up against non-peer competitors, and as soon as Peer opponents started showing up, while it would remain formidable, it would no longer be able to wade into whole companies of tanks.
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marauder648

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #21 on: 02 July 2016, 23:55:00 »
I love the Mackie.  But I kinda want to have been at the staff meeting where they decided on the name for the thing.

"So, uh, what are we going to name our giant death robot?  The suggestions have been the Murderbot 5000, the Iron Giant, and Mackie."

"LET'S GO WITH THE THIRD ONE!"

I'd honestly say that the name came about because of a need for secrecy, if someone did see 'Mackie' it don't sound like much and could be dismissed.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #22 on: 03 July 2016, 00:31:49 »
Yeah. It was probably a codename that survived the end of secrecy to become the unit name.

marauder648

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #23 on: 03 July 2016, 01:03:45 »
Yeah. It was probably a codename that survived the end of secrecy to become the unit name.

Indeed like 'tank' did for the first tanks.  They were called 'Water Tanks' for secrecy purposes.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #24 on: 03 July 2016, 22:45:40 »
I'd honestly say that the name came about because of a need for secrecy, if someone did see 'Mackie' it don't sound like much and could be dismissed.

See, if I was an enemy spy, and I saw a project called something as unassuming as "Mackie," I'd totally want to look into it.  If it was called "Murderbot 5000," I'd probably go with it being obvious schmuck bait to root out spies.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #25 on: 04 July 2016, 00:42:22 »
Thing is...

You can flood your project list with innocent stuff like Mackie just to hide your actual project in a flock of traps.

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #26 on: 04 July 2016, 01:28:47 »
Too bad we did not get a Jihad-era design mounting HPPCs . . .

Wonder if a lot of the 'new' primitive builds in the Jihad ended up out in the Marian Hegemony?  They went around buying phasing out or salvage grade equipment to rebuild, it would fit their forces and the Marians were building their own modern/primitive hybrids.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #27 on: 04 July 2016, 02:34:07 »
The Marians could probably make the 9H, the Beagle's not exactly advanced and neither's CASE in the modern period. Sure its weapons are dated but it would still be a perfectly servicable assault Mech.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #28 on: 04 July 2016, 02:58:34 »
Too bad we did not get a Jihad-era design mounting HPPCs . . .

Wonder if a lot of the 'new' primitive builds in the Jihad ended up out in the Marian Hegemony?  They went around buying phasing out or salvage grade equipment to rebuild, it would fit their forces and the Marians were building their own modern/primitive hybrids.

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #29 on: 04 July 2016, 09:58:29 »
The Marians could probably make the 9H, the Beagle's not exactly advanced and neither's CASE in the modern period. Sure its weapons are dated but it would still be a perfectly servicable assault Mech.

I declare Marian Mackies to be canon, even though I have absolutely no authority to declare things canon.   ;D
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #30 on: 04 July 2016, 15:01:09 »
See, if I was an enemy spy, and I saw a project called something as unassuming as "Mackie," I'd totally want to look into it.  If it was called "Murderbot 5000," I'd probably go with it being obvious schmuck bait to root out spies.
military and goverment projects tend to have unassuming codenames.

i mean, the development of the Stealth Fighter was under the codename "HAVE BLUE"
the test flights of the Mig-17 and Mig-21 were HAVE DOUGHNUT and HAVE DRILL/HAVE FERRY, the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron, which flew mig's for air combat training combats, was CONSTANT PEG, etc.

generally code names for projects are intentionally obtuse and obscuring. usually something to ensure that it sounds suitably innocuous if accidentally overheard. it also allows for any products that come out of them to be given more suitable names if the recipient wants it. (which is why the F-117 became the "Nighthawk" in service, rather than the "Have Blue")

generally only projects that are intended to be made public as part of their operations (like military assaults and stuff) are given dramatic names.. and even those tend to start as something like the above, and just get renamed to something dramatic before they tell the press.

sometimes the secrecy part backfires though. look at Project STARGATE.. , which while having nothing to do with spaceflight, is certainly a dramatic enough title that people started digging into th layers of secrecy to find out what it was.

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #31 on: 04 July 2016, 19:13:07 »
During the cold war the British used so called "rainbow codes" which were a randomly assigned colour and noun.  Examples included the Red Queen anti-aircraft gun, Orange Putter tail warning radar and the Green Cheese nuclear missile.

Much later when the radar developed for first Tornado interceptors was not ready in time, the concrete ballast weights installed in their place were nicknamed Blue Circle radar sets - Blue circle being a British cement manufacturer...

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #32 on: 05 July 2016, 08:41:48 »
military and goverment projects tend to have unassuming codenames.

i mean, the development of the Stealth Fighter was under the codename "HAVE BLUE"
the test flights of the Mig-17 and Mig-21 were HAVE DOUGHNUT and HAVE DRILL/HAVE FERRY, the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron, which flew mig's for air combat training combats, was CONSTANT PEG, etc.

generally code names for projects are intentionally obtuse and obscuring. usually something to ensure that it sounds suitably innocuous if accidentally overheard. it also allows for any products that come out of them to be given more suitable names if the recipient wants it. (which is why the F-117 became the "Nighthawk" in service, rather than the "Have Blue")

generally only projects that are intended to be made public as part of their operations (like military assaults and stuff) are given dramatic names.. and even those tend to start as something like the above, and just get renamed to something dramatic before they tell the press.

Examples of this can be found in the XTRO:Davion book, where you have MUSE FIRE, CADENCE RAIN, MUSE RED, and CORAL INTENT. Of course then your spies realize they must be onto something because those are just weird names.

I would like to hear more about the unofficial Marian Mackie, particularly how it mounts Rocket Launchers.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #33 on: 05 July 2016, 11:12:08 »
I love the Mackie.  But I kinda want to have been at the staff meeting where they decided on the name for the thing.

"So, uh, what are we going to name our giant death robot?  The suggestions have been the Murderbot 5000, the Iron Giant, and Mackie."

"LET'S GO WITH THE THIRD ONE!"

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #34 on: 05 July 2016, 12:08:31 »
Quote
No one wanted Roboty MacRobotface
Thank the Cameron Saints for that
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #35 on: 05 July 2016, 19:06:23 »
No one wanted Roboty MacRobotface  :-[

Okay, since I've already declared Marian Mackies canon, I am also declaring either this or Murderbot 5000 the canon actual name for the Mackie.   ;D

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #36 on: 06 July 2016, 00:55:05 »
Where did all the Mackies go? Oodles of these were produced over a long time, yet only a suspiciously tiny number was said to remain by the time of the Exodus.
I don't recall who first came up with this (not me!), but I read a fan theory that I thought was plausible: The chassis were used to build Atlases from. The Mackie had a noted history of being upgraded all the time. And the Atlas seems to have become suspiciously widespread in a suspiciously short timeframe...
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #37 on: 06 July 2016, 01:20:04 »
I think the Mackie was never meant to stay in production but the writers fell in love with it, so now we have Kerensky loading Dropships with Mackies for the Exodus.

 
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #38 on: 06 July 2016, 01:26:01 »
Well the last generation of Mackies were apparently used primarily by Terran Hegemony militia forces, which, between the Amaris Coup and the First Succession War, was a terrible place to be.

Earlier generations would probably have been mostly scrappped or shipped to wherever all those Archers and Wasps were stored*.

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #39 on: 06 July 2016, 02:27:48 »
Where did all the Mackies go? Oodles of these were produced over a long time, yet only a suspiciously tiny number was said to remain by the time of the Exodus.
I don't recall who first came up with this (not me!), but I read a fan theory that I thought was plausible: The chassis were used to build Atlases from. The Mackie had a noted history of being upgraded all the time. And the Atlas seems to have become suspiciously widespread in a suspiciously short timeframe...

i don't think you could turn a mackie chassis into an atlas that way.

however i would not be surprised if the Primitive-tech Mackies were scrapped and recycled for the most part, their materials reprocessed to make the more advanced TH and SLDF designs.
and that the non-primitives were never as widely built, and saw a lot of attrition.

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #40 on: 06 July 2016, 09:08:07 »
What Liam said. The Age of War and Star League eras are not the Succession Wars, where all available mechs are maintained with salvage so much that they can last for centuries with the proper care. Those bygone days are more like the modern world, where old and obsolete units are retired, scrapped, or even recycled for the metal. The earliest generations of mechs likely only served a few decades before being parted out or melted down, with the few survivors being those that find their way into private collections or became museum pieces/gate guardians.

Later builds would have served and then been shuffled off to Terran militias, which bore the brunt of Amaris's initial takeover of the Hegemony. Those Mackies would have either fallen in battle during those first days of the war, or been abandoned(Mackies can fill many roles, but guerrilla fighter isn't one of them), put into service by the AEAF, and subsequently destroyed by the SLDF.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #41 on: 06 July 2016, 10:45:22 »
What Liam said. The Age of War and Star League eras are not the Succession Wars, where all available mechs are maintained with salvage so much that they can last for centuries with the proper care. Those bygone days are more like the modern world, where old and obsolete units are retired, scrapped, or even recycled for the metal. The earliest generations of mechs likely only served a few decades before being parted out or melted down, with the few survivors being those that find their way into private collections or became museum pieces/gate guardians.

Later builds would have served and then been shuffled off to Terran militias, which bore the brunt of Amaris's initial takeover of the Hegemony. Those Mackies would have either fallen in battle during those first days of the war, or been abandoned(Mackies can fill many roles, but guerrilla fighter isn't one of them), put into service by the AEAF, and subsequently destroyed by the SLDF.
What about cached units, such as the primitives from New Dallas? There could be quite a few Age of War caches around the Inner sphere.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #42 on: 06 July 2016, 11:42:22 »
Stripped bare in the centuries prior? I dunno.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #43 on: 06 July 2016, 12:08:21 »
Stripped bare in the centuries prior? I dunno.
If they haven't forgotten about them. People cared so little for them and they were replaced so rapidly, I can imagine that many sites were simply forgotten.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #44 on: 07 July 2016, 10:48:42 »
Re the Marian Mackie how about calling it the Marius, after a Roman Emperor?  Or for some reason the name Merrimack keeps sticking in my head, although you could probably call  a Taurian Mech design that.
« Last Edit: 07 July 2016, 11:21:02 by marauder648 »
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #45 on: 09 July 2016, 08:58:18 »
Still love the Mackie!!
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #46 on: 10 August 2016, 15:02:38 »
Did we ever get intro dates for the upgraded Mackies?
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #47 on: 10 August 2016, 16:02:13 »
The MUL has dates for all the designs except for "Kill-Roy's Little Buddy."

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=Mackie&HasBV=false&MinTons=&MaxTons=&MinBV=&MaxBV=&MinIntro=&MaxIntro=&MinCost=&MaxCost=&HasRole=&HasBFAbility=&MinPV=&MaxPV=&Role=None+Selected&BookAuto=&FactionAuto=

edit
Of course, I'm not sure the Star League era stuff is considered finalized, but its a good place to start.
/edit
« Last Edit: 10 August 2016, 16:06:34 by Maelwys »

Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #48 on: 10 August 2016, 16:14:24 »
Yeah, I found that after checking other sources . . . just surprised not to see it in the article.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #49 on: 21 July 2018, 09:05:01 »
...damn it, now I know what I'm doing in the morning during breakfast.

Was just reading through the old thread. Did you remember to switch out the AC/20 for an LB-X model?

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #50 on: 30 July 2018, 23:30:58 »
I love the Mackie.  But I kinda want to have been at the staff meeting where they decided on the name for the thing.

"So, uh, what are we going to name our giant death robot?  The suggestions have been the Murderbot 5000, the Iron Giant, and Mackie."

"LET'S GO WITH THE THIRD ONE!"

Well...there's a Lake Mackie in Wisconsin and a Scottish clan Mackie...

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #51 on: 28 September 2018, 09:37:29 »
Re the Marian Mackie how about calling it the Marius, after a Roman Emperor?  Or for some reason the name Merrimack keeps sticking in my head, although you could probably call  a Taurian Mech design that.
Mariackie?

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #52 on: 28 September 2018, 09:44:59 »
Marius was never emperor . . . IIRC Sulla saw to that . . .
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #53 on: 01 October 2018, 08:56:03 »
What Liam said. The Age of War and Star League eras are not the Succession Wars, where all available mechs are maintained with salvage so much that they can last for centuries with the proper care. Those bygone days are more like the modern world, where old and obsolete units are retired, scrapped, or even recycled for the metal. The earliest generations of mechs likely only served a few decades before being parted out or melted down, with the few survivors being those that find their way into private collections or became museum pieces/gate guardians.


Now I want to find the SLDF equivalent of Anniston Army Depot, where they rebuild M1's. That would be cool.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #54 on: 02 October 2018, 10:32:19 »
I thought Dallas had stored their Mackies away along with other designs in their depot though they had updated their newer Mackies. I know many obsoleted mechs ended up in planetary milities in the years running up to Succession Wars. 
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #55 on: 02 October 2018, 11:42:14 »
What Liam said. The Age of War and Star League eras are not the Succession Wars, where all available mechs are maintained with salvage so much that they can last for centuries with the proper care. Those bygone days are more like the modern world, where old and obsolete units are retired, scrapped, or even recycled for the metal. The earliest generations of mechs likely only served a few decades before being parted out or melted down, with the few survivors being those that find their way into private collections or became museum pieces/gate guardians.

Later builds would have served and then been shuffled off to Terran militias, which bore the brunt of Amaris's initial takeover of the Hegemony. Those Mackies would have either fallen in battle during those first days of the war, or been abandoned(Mackies can fill many roles, but guerrilla fighter isn't one of them), put into service by the AEAF, and subsequently destroyed by the SLDF.

Which is the Western Model . . .
Frontline service with elite units for designed purpose (European units during the Cold War, Korea DMZ in Cold War, N Atlantic fleets, etc)
Production gets around to filling all regular commands to become the standard
Package upgrades to weapon system- better guns, engines, sensors, armor, etc
Pulled from elite units to be replaced with the latest thing, hands off to the better reserve units- starts selling to allies, or in this case the Houses
Design gets repurposed for specialization in elite/frontline service (Wild Weasel Phantoms, EF-111 EW platforms, WWII diesel subs for R&D- Archerfish, M-60s as bridgelayers/mineclearing/CEV) this step sometimes combines with the previous one- also becomes training vehicle
Fills reserve units and is in limited regular units, oldest examples start getting mothballed or scrapped- or ones that have structural wear/faults
No longer in regular units, better reserve units start replacing with 'latest' thing
Phased out of reserve units into mothballs- gets used for targets- beyond strategic minimum reserve, gets scrapped

Soviet model?
Never throw it away, it can be used somewhere!

So yeah . . . Hegemony militia was still using the Mackie up to Aramis per the fluff, but not the original model since it had kept being upgraded.  Probably had depots set up around the Hegemony like what Lima was in the 50s and Davis-Mothman is for the USAF today.  New Dallas's underground storage facility was just that sort of stockpile.
 Since IMO they would be regional, the question is could someone have moved or hidden the mechs, armor, ASF, small craft and maybe even DS before Aramis folks laid hands on them.  We know in the case of what was found on Helm, that could very well have happened in other place.
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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #56 on: 16 October 2018, 09:06:13 »
As much as it's a 'primitive' 'Mech, the 6S weapons package is actually pretty sweet, and you can mount it on a 75 tonner moving 4/6 with max armour and it turns into a vicious little Heavy that can curbstomp Marauders all day erry day.

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #57 on: 16 October 2018, 09:21:22 »
As much as it's a 'primitive' 'Mech, the 6S weapons package is actually pretty sweet, and you can mount it on a 75 tonner moving 4/6 with max armour and it turns into a vicious little Heavy that can curbstomp Marauders all day erry day.
The Marauder would have range advantage and overall firepower advantage, especially if it is willing to push its heat. Park it behind a hill and you can heat up to 7 for no practical effect, allowing relatively high sustained firepower. Armor difference is there to be sure, hence the partial cover (or better yet, a depth 1 water hex).

The "Mackie" as you describe it, would need to get 15 hexes to deal 20 damage per turn, which may be significant problem depending on terrain. If it tries the same trick as the Marauder, it may end up out of range for some weapons, or just having weaker firepower. It really wouldn't be a curbstomp battle, even if the armor is enough to allow the "Mackie" to survive (it would have BV advantage), it would be badly damaged most likely.

And if we are talking about the Star League era, let's remember the 1R and 2Rs are much better machines...


But, the Mackie is not that.

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #58 on: 18 October 2018, 17:04:28 »
The Marauder would have range advantage and overall firepower advantage, especially if it is willing to push its heat. Park it behind a hill and you can heat up to 7 for no practical effect, allowing relatively high sustained firepower. Armor difference is there to be sure, hence the partial cover (or better yet, a depth 1 water hex).

The "Mackie" as you describe it, would need to get 15 hexes to deal 20 damage per turn, which may be significant problem depending on terrain. If it tries the same trick as the Marauder, it may end up out of range for some weapons, or just having weaker firepower. It really wouldn't be a curbstomp battle, even if the armor is enough to allow the "Mackie" to survive (it would have BV advantage), it would be badly damaged most likely.

And if we are talking about the Star League era, let's remember the 1R and 2Rs are much better machines...


But, the Mackie is not that.

Eh. If you're allowed to claim a +1 from partial cover I'm allowed to close 6 hexes per turn and that handily eliminates the range advantage.

It's not 100% real-life-play (though it is 'opponents of equal skill'), but 2 Megamek bots each running a full company of my idea vs. MAD-3R on a 2*2 randomised board resulted in total loss of all marauders vs. loss of 2 Mackies.

Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie
« Reply #59 on: 18 October 2018, 17:46:25 »
I don't do Megamek so i have no idea how smart the bot is but if it is anything like typical video game AI, i really wouldn't read anything into its doings. Seen supposedly smart strategy game AI to utterly idiotic things commonly (really think calling AI "automatic idiot" is quite accurate).

Besides, while individual Marauder vs this hypothetical nonexistent 75-ton Mackie has only about 100 BV cost difference and thus terrain may benefit Marauder just enough for it to win or damage the Mackie severely, company vs company raises that difference to massive size plus focus firing (which any smart commander would order) changes things too much. It isn't really valid test, i think, though i will admit 1v1 duels aren't exactly representative of reality either.

As for partial cover, i suggested that for the Marauder because the 'Mech really should always look for that when possible, it is not a 'Mech to pick for open field battle. You're right that the range advantage would be lost quickly, but partial cover benefit would be significant, it isn't just +1 to hit but leg hits (which take significant percentage of hit location table) being negated completely.

This all reminds me there probably should be a tactics article that analyzes things like terrain, terrain effects (such as partial cover) range and range bracket importance, good movement patterns, places to control on maps, etc.

 

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