VotW: Scorpion

[Redshirt]

A couple of ideas:

Idea 1 - Based off the Medium Laser Variant, use ton from the infantry bay and add TAG.

Idea 2 - Create a version that carries a Mech Mortar (in Inner Sphere tonnage, it would have to be a Mech Mortar 4) and a couple tons of ammo. Sorta poor militia's artillery.

You can use the TAG variant to call in LRM's, Mortar Shots from the Mech Mortar, or Artillery...

[JadeHellbringer]

I wonder if the Draconis Combine might use the ML version as the basis for a Light PPC armed variant. That would give the same range and damage profile as the original AC/5 model, and require one less heat sink. Additional machine gun maybe?

I don't have the construction rules handy, but I'm not seeing the weight working as you're putting it. The PPCs weigh more than the lasers, don't they? Or am I missing something else?

A couple of ideas:

Idea 1 - Based off the Medium Laser Variant, use ton from the infantry bay and add TAG.

Idea 2 - Create a version that carries a Mech Mortar (in Inner Sphere tonnage, it would have to be a Mech Mortar 4) and a couple tons of ammo. Sorta poor militia's artillery.

You can use the TAG variant to call in LRM's, Mortar Shots from the Mech Mortar, or Artillery...

The mortar tank came from a discussion Redshirt and I had over wings yesterday, and I love the idea of it. One is kind of lame, but a platoon of them could be a serious nuisance with smoke ammo. As part of a larger force, I'd happily throw something like this together (and if possible delete the now-superfluous turret in the process).

[Scotty]

So then you'd have no problem slapping on some sort of Ferro-Fibrous armor either?

Not really!  Probably that one would depend on the capability of the planet to support them.  Ultra ACs are the sort of things you can fix up with 20 minutes in the MFB.  Replacing an entire sheathe of Ferro-Fibrous requires a continuous supply of the stuff, which is a sight more difficult to ensure.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Swapping out 2 medium lasers for an LPPC on an ICE vehicle ought to break even in tonnage.

[Giovanni Blasini]

2 ML + 6 SHS = 8 tons
1 LPPC + 5 SHS = 8 tons

Power amp and turret mass should be the same.

[Liam's Ghost]

Swapping the AC on the basic hull for a light PPC is a net gain by nearly every metric. Same raw damage performance, an extra ton to put elsewhere, Smaller logistical tail, the Light PPC is more readily available by the dark age (availability C vs D for the autocannon), the cost isn't all that higher (depending on what you spend your ton on).

[Giovanni Blasini]

What's going to get you the most bang for your buck? Twin RL-10s? More armor? Two more MGs? Ton of cargo like the ML variant for, say, an infantry squad?

[Scotty]

Swapping the AC on the basic hull for a light PPC is a net gain by nearly every metric. Same raw damage performance, an extra ton to put elsewhere, Smaller logistical tail, the Light PPC is more readily available by the dark age (availability C vs D for the autocannon), the cost isn't all that higher (depending on what you spend your ton on).

Light PPCs being more available than AC/5s in the Dark Age is a fantastic reason to ignore availability tables in most eras.  That said, Light PPCs will have a demonstrably more difficult time taking care of fast movers in any sense of the word, being unable to use Precision or Flak ammo.  Most times I wouldn't care, but if you're fielding large numbers of Scorpions I daresay you probably don't have the Pulse Lasers or LBXs to take those down otherwise.

[Liam's Ghost]

Light PPCs being more available than AC/5s in the Dark Age is a fantastic reason to ignore availability tables in most eras. 

Why? The light PPC has had decades to make its mark and The AC-5 is obsolete technology. In addition, an availability rating of D isn't particularly rare, it's comparable to fusion engines. It's really only an issue when you're talking about units produced in numbers larger than most battlemechs, like, say, scorpion tanks.

That said, Light PPCs will have a demonstrably more difficult time taking care of fast movers in any sense of the word, being unable to use Precision or Flak ammo.  Most times I wouldn't care, but if you're fielding large numbers of Scorpions I daresay you probably don't have the Pulse Lasers or LBXs to take those down otherwise.

You have one ton of ammo, so it's not like you can use that flexibility very well. Also, if you can't get advanced weapons, why should we assume you're high enough on the logistical chain to get specialty ammo?  :P It's a very thin thing to pin your hopes on.

[Liam's Ghost]

What's going to get you the most bang for your buck? Twin RL-10s? More armor? Two more MGs? Ton of cargo like the ML variant for, say, an infantry squad?

My first instinct is either more armor or an infantry squad.

[Scotty]

Why? The light PPC has had decades to make its mark and The AC-5 is obsolete technology. In addition, an availability rating of D isn't particularly rare, it's comparable to fusion engines. It's really only an issue when you're talking about units produced in numbers larger than most battlemechs, like, say, scorpion tanks.

You have one ton of ammo, so it's not like you can use that flexibility very well. Also, if you can't get advanced weapons, why should we assume you're high enough on the logistical chain to get specialty ammo?  :P It's a very thin thing to pin your hopes on.

Flak ammo is easy enough to produce just about anywhere, and never went extinct.  And I'd say there's a fair bit of difference in supply chain strain between "We need a Light PPC and a bunch of heat sinks, so we can rip out the AC/5 and replace it.  The Scorpion will be out of action for a few days, at least, and we'll need a dropship bay if you want it to work right" and "We need a half dozen tons of Precision ammo for our Autocannons".

[Liam's Ghost]

But you're still stuck with the problem of all you have is precision ammo. Even if you have a massive stockpile of varied munitions, you still only have the one ammo bay.

Also there's the long term investment. Once you've pulled the autocannon and put in the PPC, you don't need to keep buying stuff to keep it going (barring replacement, which, once again, the Light PPC is a better candidate for because it's easier to get). With the autocannon, you always have to get more ammo. The refit pays for itself eventually.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Wasn't ammo becoming scarcer and more valuable in the Dark Age as shipping got disrupted?

[Liam's Ghost]

Wasn't ammo becoming scarcer and more valuable in the Dark Age as shipping got disrupted?

Probably, but I'm not sure it's quantified much. For the most part the Universal technology table suggests that equipment either becomes more common or remains just as common as previous eras (My example of the AC isn't that the AC5 is more scarce, light ppcs are becoming more common).

Even so, from a story standpoint I wouldn't necessarily expect any type of shipments to always arrive promptly.

[Baldur Mekorig]

I can be wrong, but did not the FCE comes with a free SHS?

[Empyrus]

I can be wrong, but did not the FCE comes with a free SHS?

Yes, one.
So, nobody should think about using energy weapons with a fuel cell engine, not really. You still need power amps and additional heat sinks. A Small Pulse Laser would require half a ton for the power amp and another heat sink. And a Small Laser would effectively weight one ton with the power amp.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

What's the availability on Chem Lasers in the Dark Age?

[Liam's Ghost]

What's the availability on Chem Lasers in the Dark Age?

E, which as a clan weapon would raise the availability to F for Inner Sphere units.

Which is tragic considering how well suited it would be to small, cheap, expendable vehicles like these.

[Empyrus]

I wouldn't put too much stock on the availability ratings, just like i wouldn't look at the rules-based C-bills costs. They just don't make much sense.

There is at least one Inner Sphere vehicle using Chemical Lasers (some FWL helicopter IIRC). Mixed-tech, of course. But evidently they can be bought from Sea Foxes.

A Large Chemical Laser would be pretty good fit for Scorpions BUT once again, i'm not sure it is worth upgrading. If you go energy weapon route, a Light PPC is probably cheaper to acquire, though obviously it won't free weight for other stuff.

[Liam's Ghost]

I wouldn't put too much stock on the availability ratings, just like i wouldn't look at the rules-based C-bills costs. They just don't make much sense.

There is at least one Inner Sphere vehicle using Chemical Lasers (some FWL helicopter IIRC). Mixed-tech, of course. But evidently they can be bought from Sea Foxes.

If they're available, then sure, they can be obtained. The availability tables don't say "you can't have this" (Technically even availability X isn't really a prohibition, just the province of prototypes and one offs). It just rates how things are relatively available to each other.

Just like the XXL engine had an F availability rating after the Jihad, but the Lyrans still had a production model Battlemaster using one.

I imagine a scorpion variant using chemical lasers is perfectly reasonable, there just aren't enough chemical lasers on the market to produce the scorpion in the same amounts as other variants. It's about nuance, not yes or no.

[SCC]

Actually given the fluff around Chemical Lasers, Scorpions and the like using them wouldn't be that unusual, aren't they said to be based off of IS weapons that pre-dated modern lasers?

[Weirdo]

Maybe on New St. Andrews or something.

In the Inner Sphere proper...even Quikcell insists on a certain minimum level of technological sophistication.

On the other hand, a Scorpion IIC with modern chemlights sounds like the perfect thing for the Horses to assign to their bottom-tier units that still merit actual vehicles.

[SCC]

I was thinking more along the lines of something produced during the Succession Wars.

[Empyrus]

The chemical lasers resurrect the old concept of using gases as lasing medium* but that does not mean the weapons are Inner Sphere technology. They share the performance characteristic of standard lasers but that could be just because gas lasers aren't effective for military use. Considering the Hell's Horses managed to keep the laser size small and weight low while having auto-loading mechanism for the lasing gas shells, i highly doubt they can be replicated that easily with Inner Sphere technology. Most certainly not during the Succession Wars.

*Headcanon: This incidentally double as coolant, and when it gets dumped it effectively negates the need for heat sinks in vehicles.

[glitterboy2098]

actually per their entry in Tactical Operations, Chemical lasers were around for a long time.. predating even fusion engines.
the reason we only have clan tech versions is just that the clans were the first ones to adopt them in recent times.
"Chemical lasers were actually the first effective energy weapons able to physically damage relatively robust targets, like solid-fueled missiles and
unarmored military vehicles. With the advent of economical fusion engines and refinements in electrically powered lasing mechanisms, however, they were quickly overtaken by a new generation of “fuel-free” laser weapons that have become today’s standard."

so there is little reason for there not to be IS versions, aside from the general focus of the IS on ever more advanced technology rather than leveraging existing stuff fully.

[Liam's Ghost]

Early chemical lasers also predate modern mech grade armor. We can't guarantee those early lasers wouldn't have the same problem as rifles/cannons. That said...

so there is little reason for there not to be IS versions, aside from the general focus of the IS on ever more advanced technology rather than leveraging existing stuff fully.

Fun note, Chemical Lasers are classified as tech level E technology. It's far from a perfect equivalence, but it is roughly comparable to most Star League technology.

So personal headcannon, early chemical lasers aren't sufficiently effective against modern armor to be worthwhile, and require Star League equivalent technology to be competitive. 

[Colt Ward]

Scorpion has always been a interesting tank for the possibilities.  Like others have said I would definitely like to see a MML version (2 5s & 3t ammo works on the SRM chassis) and a IFV- in the Jihad we had enough 'local' producers make IFV versions of their light tanks.  My favorite is a MML3 and some MagShots in the turret- but I would have preferred a XTRO version that had patchwork armor where reactive or hardened would cover the front.

Also wish we might have gotten a canon periphery version that dropped the AC for the appropriate rifle, something to make it even lower tech though it would be good to hunt BA.

I thought this thing had a LB-X version like the Vedette for many of the same reasons?

[worktroll]

Heck, let's go the whole hog!

1) The Katyusha version mentioned earlier.
2) Sturm-Katyusha - drop the turret, add several RL-20s and fill gaps with RL-10s
3) The JagdScorpion - drop turret, fit RAC-2 with 2 tons ammo. (Would have loved to fit an LB-10X, but ... didn't work.)
4) The Scorpion BMP-1, with LAC/2 in turret, limited amphibious, and 3-ton infantry bay
(or the BMP-2 version, with LRM-5 & SRM-2 in turret, ton ammo each, same amphib & troop capacity)
5) Rename the LAC version "Wirlbewind"

Und so weiter O0

[ravensword]

3) The JagdScorpion - drop turret, fit RAC-2 with 2 tons ammo. (Would have loved to fit an LB-10X, but ... didn't work.)

This works with an LB-X if you drop the MG and a ton of armor in order in addition to the turret.  Of course, you only get one ton of ammo.

[truetanker]

What about a MPL?

Or even a mix tech cMPL?

TT