Infantry usage in BT

[Masakari88]

Hello Guys,

New to the gaming,but not the world :)

My question is. I was looking through rule books etc because I want to try infantry soon and...it's not adding up, how can I use them? More preciesly in BV and transportation.

Lot of rule books contining the moving and firing rules but I only found it in the Master rules page 61. (see attachement) that what is their weight. and this lead me to more question...
I'm using Mechfactory for unit profiles, I bought hover and tracked APC. non of the profiles contains what is their cargo space so...how do I know how many infantry it can go with it?
Also other problem is Master Rules says infantry platoon = 3 ton, but I only found it at Sarna that infantry platoon = 2+ squad, 1 squad = 2-3 fire team
and 1 fire team = 3-5 infantry, so the exact number is also not clear...

Can someone help me out with it? would be very useful.

Thank you
Cheers

[Daryk]

Tech Manual, pages 144-155 covers all the construction basics you're looking for.  Total Warfare, pages 212-229 has all the basic game play rules (Tactical Operations has a bunch of cool optional rules like Squad Deployment).  The pdfs aren't that expensive...

[Masakari88]

I didnt checked Tech Manul,maybe that was the problem. Checking it out.
Thank you for the help! :)

[Daryk]

No problem!  I at least will be here if you have any questions.  I'm not the only infantry advocate on the board...  :thumbsup:

[dgorsman]

Infantry have changed significantly since the BattleTech Master Rules, Sarna is probably relating the latest version.  Total Warfare (play rules) and Tech Manual (construction) are the latest.   Don't forget to grab the errata for both, especially for TM - the infantry tables have been republished several times.

[Masakari88]

Cool,

So i dig through the tech manual and the total warfare again. So making Infantry and calculating BV,dmg etc is clear now  :thumbsup:

1 question still came up regarding transport and modelling.

So as I saw it on mechfactory(for example)
Hover apc -> 1 ton bay
Heavy hover apc -> 6ton bay

So basicly normal apc not really worth it if you want to transport more than 10 model.

So in total if I want to make a mercs infantry(which I do as I make my own team:)) 28 model is the max in a platoon, and 7 model in a squad soooo
1 hex of minis can be 28 model? or I have to seperate them into 7 models/hex?(but that would be kinda weird because of the damage calculation I guess).

[Weirdo]

One unit of foot infantry in standard rules is indeed a platoon, which is usually 28 troopers (though some factions go a bit higher or lower). The single mini or counter you place on the board will represent that. (Though of course, there's no requirement for a mini to actually have 28 figures on it.)

Weights for generic infantry platoons can be found in Total War. For custom platoons, rules for determining their weight can be found in Tech Manual, along with the rest of the rules for building your own platoons.

[Daryk]

The "bit higher" Weirdo cites caps out at 30 for everything being "one platoon" on the map.  Anything larger than 30 has to be split up at the TW level.

[Masakari88]

The reason I asked is actually because if I use a normal APC(because I'm stupid) and the 28 model is only fit into 3 apc(since 1 apc is 1 ton bay). buut...how can I unload them then into 1 hex?:) its a bit of a stupid "loophole" but I tend to ask the stupid questions out of curiosity.

But understood it, if I want to buy infantry I always have to buy the max amount:)

[Weirdo]

The APCs with 1-ton bays cannot be used to carry troops in Total War-level play. They require the use of TacOps-level rules to get any use it of that cargo bay.

Also, just to make sure I'm understanding your posts, could you please explain what you mean by the words 'model' and 'buy'? Neither one usually has any bearing when talking about infantry.

[Daryk]

I thought you could have a 10-trooper platoon under TW?  ???

[Weirdo]

Dunno, I've never tried.

I'll provisionally accept that it might be possible to fit an extreme edge case unit into a single-squad APC within TW rules.

[Daryk]

The hard limits in Tech Manual appear to be maximums, not minimums, though I seem to recall a rule question that established 5 as the minimum squad size.  Two squads of five would seem to be possible.

[Masakari88]

So it's time for me to think about Infantry. I sit down, write, tried to calculate, then I get frustrated and engraged how incomplete(ununderstandable) is the generation process,or I dont see the connection of this 600000 manuals and pages.....

So I need a clear help
I atteched the calculating sheet from tech manual.

Let's say I want to make a Mercenary conventional infantry (MP value 1):
Primary weapon: Laser Rifle(damage 0,28 bv 0.88?)
Honestly I dont understand exactly anymore how secondary weapons are used. Its says only support group can be used,then how the hell could I add grenades if those are not in the support group for example?! (Same if I want to add melee as secondary, then there is only 2/squad so 8 in total also why would I add a meelee weapon as a secondary if the damage of it is much worse than the primary weapons damage?)
So lets say no secondary weapons for the platoon to make it easier for the example.

So lets check the sheet in order

Defensive BV:
28 person so 28 x 1.5= 42
Target modifier: ? (it's zero as I remember, conventional doesnt add any, but how the hell should I know the jump/mechanized infantry value? page 315 has a table but it doesnt clarify what type of infantry used which value) so lets say it's 0. so 42 is the Defensive value.

Offensive BV:
Individual weapons
28 Laser rifle, so 28 x 0.88 = 24,64
(There is no support weapon, but lets say I want to add grenade,please write me an example how would it look like than or if grenade really cant be used as secondary then with a Machine Gun(Light))

Anti-mech BV
I guess there is none, I have no idea where to check it(as its not written in tech manual where to find this info,very nice)

now I need to multiply the 24,64 with a speed factor. What the hell is the speed factor?!?!?! There is a table at page 315 in tech manual but how should I know the value of running and jumping of the infantry if its not listed anywhere at all?!?!(I didnt find it anywhere at least after checking all the manuals for infantry 3 times)

and final Battle Value
Defensive + Offensive: 42 + ?

Damage: 28 x 0,28 = 7,84 after rounding it up it's 8 on full platton size. (avarage dmg/trooper is 0,286)
 
So in overall. I dont understand at all because of the incomplete tables and references in tech manual....

In short for TL;DR's:
What is the Target modifier for specific infantry types and the value it adds for the defensive factor calculation
Where can i find the anti-mech rating for specific infantry types
what is the speed factor for specific infantry types and the value it adds for the calculation

Thanks in advance

[Daryk]

Honestly, I don't use BV, but the procedure on page 309 seems pretty straight forward.  I'll try to answer the questions I can identify.

1) Target Modifier is going to be based on the movement rate of the unit.  Movement rates for infantry units are on page 145.  Target Modifiers are the same as everywhere else in the game (0 for 1-2, +1 for 3-4, +2 for 5 (the most conventional infantry can have), and +1 more if Jump capable).

2) The Anti-Mech question is addressed on page 309 under Calculate Weapon Battle Rating:

If the unit is capable of performing anti-’Mech attacks, add these amounts again (all non-mechanized conventional infantry has this capability).

  It's a bit more complicated than this, because if you don't pay for the actual Anti-Mech gear in creation, your Anti-Mech skill is considered to be 8 (making your unit cheaper).

3) Speed Factor is actually on page 304 (under 'mechs).  You enter the table on page 316 with that number (which is also derived from the movement rate from page 145).  The example for a Jump Platoon gets to 3 by taking 1 (its "running" movement) and adding half its Jump movement, rounded up (1.5 rounds to 2).  Foot infantry is going to have 1.

[Masakari88]

Honestly, I don't use BV, but the procedure on page 309 seems pretty straight forward.  I'll try to answer the questions I can identify.

1) Target Modifier is going to be based on the movement rate of the unit.  Movement rates for infantry units are on page 145.  Target Modifiers are the same as everywhere else in the game (0 for 1-2, +1 for 3-4, +2 for 5 (the most conventional infantry can have), and +1 more if Jump capable).

2) The Anti-Mech question is addressed on page 309 under Calculate Weapon Battle Rating:  It's a bit more complicated than this, because if you don't pay for the actual Anti-Mech gear in creation, your Anti-Mech skill is considered to be 8 (making your unit cheaper).

3) Speed Factor is actually on page 304 (under 'mechs).  You enter the table on page 316 with that number (which is also derived from the movement rate from page 145).  The example for a Jump Platoon gets to 3 by taking 1 (its "running" movement) and adding half its Jump movement, rounded up (1.5 rounds to 2).  Foot infantry is going to have 1.

yeah seems pretty straightforward but its not as you can see...

1)problem is...its still not clear, on the photo I attached why it's +1 to be honest. Those modifiers you say are coming after the unit did during combat based on the number of hexes they moved through,not as a fix value for calculation. So my question is still the same, what is this modifier number for the different type of infantries?
2) ahham,okay I see now.
3) There is no table in Techmanual page 304 or 305. Those pages are mech BV calculations so the question is the same, how this speed factor getting calculated? (In techmanual page 316 there is no speed factor table)

[Daryk]

Hover Mechanized should be +2 because it moves 5 hexes, so that should be an errata report.

Jump is +2 because it jumps 3 (+1 for moving 3, and +1 more for jumping).

Foot is +0 (it only moves 1).

Wheeled/Tracked Mechanized and Motorized move 3 and so get +1.

As I said in my last post, you use the 'mech formula for Speed Factor.  That's "Running" + half Jump movement (rounded up).

Again (from page 145):

Hover Mechanized is 5.

Wheeled Mechanized is 4.

Tracked Mechanized and Motorized is 3.

Jump is 3 (as outlined in my last post).

Foot is 1.

Things get a little wackier if you use Squad Deployment from TacOps, because individual squads get another +1 Target Modifier.

[Masakari88]

Hover Mechanized should be +2 because it moves 5 hexes, so that should be an errata report.

Jump is +2 because it jumps 3 (+1 for moving 3, and +1 more for jumping).

Foot is +0 (it only moves 1).

Wheeled/Tracked Mechanized and Motorized move 3 and so get +1.

As I said in my last post, you use the 'mech formula for Speed Factor.  That's "Running" + half Jump movement (rounded up).

Again (from page 145):

Hover Mechanized is 5.

Wheeled Mechanized is 4.

Tracked Mechanized and Motorized is 3.

Jump is 3 (as outlined in my last post).

Foot is 1.

Things get a little wackier if you use Squad Deployment from TacOps, because individual squads get another +1 Target Modifier.

Okay you now contradict to the tech manual. You say jump infantry is +2 for target modifier while tech manul says +1 in the calculate (page 310). soooo which one is the true now?

Also for speed factor you are wrong. So you say jump infantry is factor 3 which means on page 315 in the table it says the modifier is 0.77. While in the photo I attached from page 310 they used 0.88 which is the number for factor 4.

Also if speed factor is really = move value that is another super big mistake for the person who wrote it,as it's not logicly clear that this 2 is the same in this case for calculation.....

So you see what I mean? tech manual is a garbage(no offense to anyone).
I'm still not closer at all how to calculate the BV according to tech manual.

[Daryk]

Just to be clear, my position has always been that BV is literally useless, as there's no way to account for player skill.  In fact, if you COULD fully account for that, it would reduce the game to a coin flip.

Enough philosophy.  Page 310 agrees that +3 Jump is worth a +2 Target Movement modifier, which is exactly what I assert.  Also, page 310 is about BA, not conventional infantry, so I've lost you here...

[Masakari88]

Just to be clear, my position has always been that BV is literally useless, as there's no way to account for player skill.  In fact, if you COULD fully account for that, it would reduce the game to a coin flip.

Enough philosophy.  Page 310 agrees that +3 Jump is worth a +2 Target Movement modifier, which is exactly what I assert.  Also, page 310 is about BA, not conventional infantry, so I've lost you here...

Left side of Page 310 is the BV calculation for infantry. right side is the start fort the Battle Armor example(which continues on 311).

Where do you see +2 target modifier on page then for jump infantry? it's written +1. But to make it easier I cropped it(see in attachement).
(::edit:: hmm as I read again its for mechanized not exactly jump but still not matches the number you wrote above for mechanized,for some reason my mind read jump instead of mechanized ::edit:: )

Thats why I wrote in my first comment that a full number example would be 100 more useful, yet we talking about the nothing basicly :/
Also yes BV is weird but infantry needs a value otherwise I could spam infinite amount in a battle :P (If I count them 0)

[Daryk]

As I said, that +1 for the Hover Mechanized Infantry is wrong, as they should get +2 for a movement of 5.

For the Jump Infantry, see the top of the right column of page 309:

The Anti-’Mech Jump Infantry platoon receives a Target Movement Modifier of +2. That gives it a Defensive Factor of 1.2.

[Masakari88]

As I said, that +1 for the Hover Mechanized Infantry is wrong, as they should get +2 for a movement of 5.

For the Jump Infantry, see the top of the right column of page 309:

That is page 309(nothing for infantry modifier on this page), are we using the same book???

I think mechanized thing is clear now. but it means that example on page 310 is wrong. Becuse the multiplier modifier should be 1.2 then(for modifier +2)?

[Daryk]

Ah, no, we are not using the same book.  I have the most recent printing of TM in pdf (the one with the Hatchetman on the cover).

[Masakari88]

Ah, no, we are not using the same book.  I have the most recent printing of TM in pdf (the one with the Hatchetman on the cover).

damn...I cannot recognize mine :D it's a blue colored mech with missing right arm.
I guess mine is the previous version.

[Daryk]

Yep, that's the previous incarnation.  The advantage of buying the pdfs is that you get the updates for free...

[dgorsman]

Well, watch the page numbers, but get those errata downloads.  They're free!

[Kovax]

Secondary weapons may be useful if the primary weapon has a setup time, such as infantry SRMs, which are EITHER move or shoot.  If you moved, and some enemy infantry unit then moves into range, you can't fire the SRMs because you moved, but you can still fire secondary weapons at them.  The secondary weapons may have a lower damage number than the main weapons, but if you can't fire the more powerful ones, you'll be glad that you have an alternative.  You can also have a non-lethal secondary weapon for troops who may on occasion need to quell civilian riots with minimal loss of life.  Of course, combining infantry rifles with some other lethal weapon that does even less damage would be a waste of BV.

Then again, the BT universe is full of such strange combinations and questionable uses of equipment.  By the old RPG rules, one-shot disposable LAWs were statted to do less damage than the basic rifles or pistols, so packing one instead of another ammo clip would be stupid.  I haven't checked, but hopefully that's been changed under more recent rules.  In BT, there's a rule for almost everything....it may not make any sense, but there is a rule.

[Weirdo]

You've got it backwards. The high-damage or bulky or slow-firing weapons are the secondary ones. Support weapons like SRMs can never be the primary weapon of an infantry platoon.

[Daryk]

And move or shoot only applies if you have TWO Support Weapons as your Secondary Weapons.  Standard Weapons with a longer range are often a good choice for enabling your Auto Rifles to reach out and touch the enemy, especially now that Sniper Rifles have been added (from Shrapnel #1).