How to use yellowjackets in combat.

[Greatclub]

Jihad era, Free Worlds League.

Where? I can't find anything in IntOps

The Yellowjacket looks better than it is. You can't blame people for trying to make it work. Insisting a rube-goldberg setup is success is harder feel amused by.

[Weirdo]

mid sixties gives us dedicated AA LRMs and so on

What? WHERE?!?

[Retry]

I think at this point we are just running around in circles on how to use this lovely machine.  I will admit never having use it.  I actually like it.  but I never consider that 6/9 would be consider too slow, giving that the speed of the early bug mech.  then again am the same sort that just like the look of the Hollander.. so ..err am not the one to ask about these things... sooooo pretty...……….by the way there a gauss rifle hovercraft which is 15 tons heavier then the yellow jacker, and 10tons heavier then the Hollander.  it is of course The Regulator

... 6/9 is too slow for those early bug 'mechs.  The Wasp & Stinger get slapped around by basically everything, including other, faster bug 'mechs like the Locust.

[Greatclub]

there are wasps and stingers that go 7/11/7 or have IJJ. Those can be worth using. Normally they're skeet.

But bugs can survive because they're small and inoffensive. The enemy usually has better things to shoot. That isn't true with yellowjackets; there is a BIG payoff for getting them out of the air, removing a gauss rifle threat.

[Weirdo]

Bugs also survive because even a lightly armored mech is a lot tougher than it looks, due to the plethora of hit locations(that they can survive losing), and far greater amounts of IS compared to a vee. Unless you got them dead center with a really big gun (or multiple merely big ones) or just bury them in damage, it's actually pretty hard to kill a Bug with a single salvo from a single unit.

[Marveryn]

Bugs also survive because even a lightly armored mech is a lot tougher than it looks, due to the plethora of hit locations(that they can survive losing), and far greater amounts of IS compared to a vee. Unless you got them dead center with a really big gun (or multiple merely big ones) or just bury them in damage, it's actually pretty hard to kill a Bug with a single salvo from a single unit.

which is what I was thinking of the time when the yellow jacket was introduce.  that the guass range could let it cut lose from distance and the 6/9 speed was more then enough to maintain that long range while having enough movement to make it difficult to hit from return long range fire.  If you miss it wouldn't be a huge deal as it just there for the fear factor and to prevent units form trying to head to that side of the map to avoid the gauss barrage. 

not having play it .. I never work out the math on how often return fire would actually hit. particularly on the rotors

[monbvol]

Yellow Jacket was introduced in 3058.  By then you're starting to look at increasingly common recovered tech designs.

There are medium mechs that are going 6/9/0-6 by this point.  While this isn't enough to truly force a favorable engagement for the mech it still leaves the Yellow Jacket in a very difficult place.  Especially if the medium mech in question has say an LB-5X or LB-10X.

[Daryk]

The answer to VTOLs under current rules is maximizing the number of hit locations rolled, regardless of era.  Later, this means LB-X autocannons.  Earlier, this means multiple LRM-5s, or as many SRM tubes as you can fit close in.  The rotor only takes 1 point per hit, but can only take (at most) FOUR hits.  This is why Cannonshop is right about 6/9 not being fast enough.  It's just not enough to negate enough hits.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The Yellow Jacket is a design that can unquestionably benefit from some revisionist history since Fuel Cell engines were not a thing when it was first designed but have since been retconned in.

It will wind up with distressingly thin armor going all the way up to 8/12 but mitigating that with some ferro wouldn't be too unreasonable to me.

Heck even just getting it to 7/11 would be an improvement even if that is still suboptimal.

Sure it is more expensive either way but with how many more will come back versus becoming craters on the ground it is still a swap I'd seriously consider.

I’m Arkansas Warrior, and I approve this message.

[Hellraiser]

Jihad era, Free Worlds League.

I've never heard of this tech.
Please tell me more.

What? WHERE?!?

That's what I want to know.

Where? I can't find anything in IntOps

Me either.

[monbvol]

Yeah I'm not sure which munition Cannonshop is referring to either.

The only one that comes close based off the faction and time frame is Semi-Guided but I wouldn't call that dedicated anti air.

[Cannonshop]

The answer to VTOLs under current rules is maximizing the number of hit locations rolled, regardless of era.  Later, this means LB-X autocannons.  Earlier, this means multiple LRM-5s, or as many SRM tubes as you can fit close in.  The rotor only takes 1 point per hit, but can only take (at most) FOUR hits.  This is why Cannonshop is right about 6/9 not being fast enough.  It's just not enough to negate enough hits.

on a Jellowbucket it's 5 hits, Daryk-four to strip the armor (and lose 1MP each time) and the fifth for the centre of the tootsie-pop (aka location destroyed).  Note that at that point, unless it was already grounded, it's not 'landing', it's crashing, which is to say falling, with falling damage.  Which in turn, should probably be resulting in 'unit destroyed' but that was nerfed with TW in part because of the Yellowjacket's tendency to become one with the terrain ending badly for it.  (IIRC no other vehicle type can survive losing an entire location, but post TW, apparently VTOLs can given the comments upthread about being able to bunker with them after they LOSE that rotor...funny enough that seems to be how people are reading it and how Megamek's programmers are programming it, which was NOT how we were reading it in the playtest, but oh well.  the change was meant to reflect how much good-good salvage could be recovered, not to keep it in play as a temporary turret.)

[R.Tempest]

 Anti-air Infantry. Page 165 of Handbook: House Marik.

[monbvol]

on a Jellowbucket it's 5 hits, Daryk-four to strip the armor (and lose 1MP each time) and the fifth for the centre of the tootsie-pop (aka location destroyed).  Note that at that point, unless it was already grounded, it's not 'landing', it's crashing, which is to say falling, with falling damage.  Which in turn, should probably be resulting in 'unit destroyed' but that was nerfed with TW in part because of the Yellowjacket's tendency to become one with the terrain ending badly for it.  (IIRC no other vehicle type can survive losing an entire location, but post TW, apparently VTOLs can given the comments upthread about being able to bunker with them after they LOSE that rotor...funny enough that seems to be how people are reading it and how Megamek's programmers are programming it, which was NOT how we were reading it in the playtest, but oh well.  the change was meant to reflect how much good-good salvage could be recovered, not to keep it in play as a temporary turret.)

*nod*

Considering how much less reliance on luck there is in getting a rotor hit versus a motive critical or slowing a mech by 1 MP and how that quickly becomes a cascading failure it just really shows how base 6/9 just is not fast enough to be a good VTOL.

[Greatclub]

Anti-air Infantry. Page 165 of Handbook: House Marik.

published: 2005. Are they still part of the game?

Not a book I have. What did they do?

[monbvol]

published: 2005. Are they still part of the game?

Not a book I have. What did they do?

I suspect those became the AA platforms found on 273 of Tech Manual.

[Daryk]

Ah yes, 5 hits... thanks for the correction!  Though it's only 2 for the armor, and the other 3 are all IS, right?  ???

[Cannonshop]

Ah yes, 5 hits... thanks for the correction!  Though it's only 2 for the armor, and the other 3 are all IS, right?  ???

correct.

[Cannonshop]

published: 2005. Are they still part of the game?

Not a book I have. What did they do?

insofar as I know, it was never retconned out.

[GreekFire]

Anti-air Infantry. Page 165 of Handbook: House Marik.

Technically, those are SRMs, not LRMs.

And non-technically, anyone who tries using them will quickly find out that they're about as effective as an anti-aircraft unit as a wet sponge, and that's being generous. They're no better than an angry glare and maybe a single curse word against VTOLs.

Unless TRO:3085 has it wrong and they can attack targets that don't only attack their hex.

[Colt Ward]

on a Jellowbucket it's 5 hits, Daryk-four to strip the armor (and lose 1MP each time) and the fifth for the centre of the tootsie-pop (aka location destroyed).  Note that at that point, unless it was already grounded, it's not 'landing', it's crashing, which is to say falling, with falling damage.  Which in turn, should probably be resulting in 'unit destroyed' but that was nerfed with TW in part because of the Yellowjacket's tendency to become one with the terrain ending badly for it.  (IIRC no other vehicle type can survive losing an entire location, but post TW, apparently VTOLs can given the comments upthread about being able to bunker with them after they LOSE that rotor...funny enough that seems to be how people are reading it and how Megamek's programmers are programming it, which was NOT how we were reading it in the playtest, but oh well.  the change was meant to reflect how much good-good salvage could be recovered, not to keep it in play as a temporary turret.)

Since you are probably talking about my post and started getting into a experience pissing contest when you initially replied, I never claimed any of what you just said . . . what I said was if it flubbed the sideslip roll after advancing 6 hexes and merged with the terrain at most it would take 18 damage ([6*30]/10) in 5 point clusters which IF it was spread between locations (front/side/back/rotor) a bit it would not destroy the VTOL.  BUT 1 point of IS damage taken from that merge makes it explode- Hollywood rules. 

Rotor gets shot off, its a chance it can survive a 1 or 2 level fall depending on what its been shot at with- I have not run those numbers because I wanted to see if there was a TacOps rule for crew survival like they do with 'dead' infantry and salvaging 'destroyed' BA suits for crews to garner combat experience.  But combat is not the only way for a crew to gain experience.  But to have a survivable crash landing, TW gives a description of what hexes it has to be over- basically clear with pavement, I guess maybe crops? but I do not have it before me.  Its the same sort of deal as a immobilized hovertank or mech with a missing leg- campaign play, its going to be abandoned so the crew lives and the machine is salvage.  If it is a 1 off pick up death matches the crew is suddenly fanatical trying to shoot 1 more time- same type of player who used BA flak jackets.

[Sartris]

the time has come for ferro-lam vtols

[Colt Ward]

the time has come for ferro-lam vtols

Which is probably why we do not have a ferro-lam equipped Gossamer.

Or even a (or many?) ferro-lam hovercraft.

[Sartris]

I don’t think it made the cut for the extra gear added to BMM for 3145 playability considerations so I wouldn’t expect to see it in huge quantities

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Honestly, I don't think that the thread should be any longer, and I wonder why it was so long either.

It is no secret that it is a niche, low-grade and mass production unit. Such units may have some strength, and also have clear weakness to draw the hatred. You can like or hate it, and no one can compel each of your individual taste, but no one can hide its truth either.

It is nothing wrong to say that it is a bad unit. But, as a unit with pack a (long)punch, it is also true that it is better than most other cheapshots, for it is expected to be shoot at least once or more before easily dying out. Do you really think that it would be worse than Hetzers? Well, I don't think so. Is it worse than Saladin? Maybe, but depend on the situation because of their different roles, and I think that Yellow Jacket surely have the upper hand for acquiring target at least, for its VTOL nature(able to move up/downside and can look down the others) and much longer range of the weapon.

So, at least it is playable and have some strength, if not that efficient, and you may weave some way to utilize it. Some ideas on the thread are actually viable. It is not that good always, and usually it ends up with prepare the formation optimized for for Yellow Jackets and you will wonder why you are bothred to do that. True. But, anyway it's cheap but have good firepower and range, and while it have a ton of flaws to gather the rightful hatred, but it is also true that it can draw the attention of someone that wants an exploitable niche unit.

Is it always useful? Not really. But is it good on the right situation? Yes, and that's why the choice is up to your situation or taste. If you want a bunch of cheap long sticks to stabbing the enemy on the long range, and you can make sure that you can keep it work then it would be your choice. However, if you are not bothred to a cunning(and risky) plan, or if you think that you(or your opponent) cannot keep it work, then it's not your one.

Just make sure that, it is not an optimized or reliable model, nor it is nothing but a trash for all situation. The plan for Yellow Jacket is required to shut down the enemy harrassers at all cost, and it is far from the reliable plan. And at least it have a functional long-range direct fire weapon, and not much weapons are able to fire back to it and it can sustain at least one hit against its expected enemy and survives.


And, remember that you can't make a new canon unit or modify the spec of the existed canon unit. All you can is make your own refit. It is easy to make a 'better' unit if you can make something of your own, but isn't most canon unit does as well? Personally I don't care for the canon design much(although I try to respect the design's original characteristics on the most times), but many of us are does.

[Weirdo]

Anti-air Infantry. Page 165 of Handbook: House Marik.

Completely irrelevant to this discussion, because VTOLs are not Aeros. The only fancy thing about AA infantry is that they're allowed to attack Aeros at all - they don't get any bonuses for it. And they attack VTOLs exactly the same way other infantry do.

[Daryk]

Ah, right... so it seems the way to make effective AA infantry is sniper rifles (the 7/14/21 ones, specifically) as Standard Weapons, and a single "A" coded weapon as Support per squad (thanks to that loophole in Tech Manual)...

[Retry]

PBIs in general is either loophole heaven or hell, depending on your perspective.

[Daryk]

Heaven for me...  8)

[Nikas_Zekeval]

on a Jellowbucket it's 5 hits, Daryk-four to strip the armor (and lose 1MP each time) and the fifth for the centre of the tootsie-pop (aka location destroyed).

This assumes criticals don't get you first.  In this scenario, hit #4 will come with a minimum of two critical hit rolls (each IS damage) plus a 1/6 chance out of each four hits of getting a TAC as a bonus.  At four hits, it is a 48% chance of not taking any, or 52% of taking at least one.

Looking at the rotor critical hits, you have four results.  Out of the 36 possible rolls on 2d6 in chart order

• 10 do no further damage
• 16 further damage the rotor, losing you an extra MP
• 7 destroy the flight stabilizer, can only be hit once, but once hit you are limited to cruising, and suffer +3 Piloting and +1 gunnery penalities
• 3 immediately destroy your rotor, Gravity demands you get down here right now!

So chances you might be down to 2 MP, either from extra rotor damage or being limited to cruise.  Not sure if the only hit once for the stabilizer means you default down the table if you hit it again, which would mean a second stabilizer roll is effectively a rotor destroyed result. :o  Mild case it is down to 2 MP when on it's last point of rotor structure.

Contrast to a Cavalry or Warrior, where they fourth hit in an extra rotor damage scenario leaves a 5/8 movement to attempt to withdraw with. Not enough to escape a dedicated pursuit, but depending on your side's condition they might not consider the distraction worth it.

A gauss rifle is always worth it.  And even more so for one that could be run down by an angry Urbanmech.  Didn't the 3050 refits give them a LB-10X? >:D

Or lets say your commander said getting the armor stripped off your rotors is a sign to go home while you still have a ride.  At that point a Cavalry or Warrior would still be a brisk 8/12, and able at least to keep the same distance from most ground pursuit.  Heck, the Warrior could fly backwards and do a fighting withdrawal.  A Yellow Jacket would be down to 4/6, and have to turn and run, and still could be overhauled by heavy cavalry mech designs.

This could be part of Cannonshop's experience in running them.  Once the Jellowbucket starts taking any rotor damage, it gets into trouble it can't escape from unless the enemy lets it go.  And at that point keeping up with one trying to flee isn't a great difficulty.