Add your picks to the list of IWM miniatures which need rescaling!

[iamfanboy]

LIST OF MIS-SIZED IWM MINIATURES
Right now, there are three categories: Giants (For miniatures which are just too huge in every dimension, especially when compared to minis which are of similar in-game weight and size), Off-Base (For minis that might be correctly sized, but go off their bases by a ridiculous amount: if you think by eyeball the base size is 20% larger, suggest it), and Shrimps (For 'Mechs which are just too small, and have always been a bit shrimpy)

When suggesting a mini, put the mini's name in BOLD with the category you think it's in after the name, then the reason. That way I can scan the post quick and pick it up.

After we have the list, we can talk about fan-funding resculpts, or even working up ways to convince IWM to resculpt them themselves... doubtful, but hey, nothing ventured nothing gained eh?

GIANTS
Warlord
Dragon II
Sagittaire
Kraken
Behemoth
Nightstar
Fennec
Turkina
Hollander
Osprey
Defiance
Thanatos
Lament
Vanquisher
Templar
Scylla

OFF THE BASES
Bishamon
Tarantula
Fire Scorpion
Stalking Spider
Tarantula

SHRIMPS
Hunchback (It's always been skinny, and can you imagine an HBK mini that has 3-4 weapon options instead of the gun? SOLD!)


Older post which started this follows. tl;dr version: I'm tired of the scale creep crap and I'd like to create a list of the most horrifically out of scale IWM Battletech minis so that if/when they switch to CAD/3D printing we can ask them to fix it.



Y'know, I'm a good fanboy of Battletech's stuff, and I love IWM's sculpts; nothing is quite like opening up a blister and smelling that ralidium scent. I knew IWM made the metal Malifaux minis just by the smell.

BUT I AM SO FRAGGING SICK OF THE OUTLANDISH SCALING OF THEIR MINIS.

I bought myself a King Crab and a Sagittaire recently, and I will be dipped and swallowed if the Sagittaire looks like a 95-ton 'Mech next to ANYTHING in my collection. It's almost half an inch taller than that King Crab, which matches the fluff description of the OMEGA, the ****** Omega, as "half again as tall as the King Crab"! Hell, it's the same size as a MWDA ForestryMech.

I really want to like the Sagi mini - I do. It's a beautiful sculpt, with just enough articulation that making unique poses is a pleasure instead of a chore. But holy crap is it an example of the horrid scale problems which plague the IWM line. Seriously, if it was 20% smaller, it'd use a lot less metal and be sized the same as all the other flat-bodied assaults.

I... I don't even want to use it. It's too damn big. I have no idea what to do with it, except maybe masterpaint it and put it up on eBay to pick up a slighly more in-scale C3M unit for my Alpha Strike force, or maybe use the body as the source for some 2mm-scale starship, but damn. I feel like I wasted my money - and it's a lot of ****** money for ONE miniature.

Can we compile a list of the worst examples of overscaled minis that IWM has ever put out, so that maybe they can resize them the next time they make a mold for said minis? I'm not even sure where IWM is at in mold-making tech, whether it would be a slight pain in the butt or a massive undertaking not worth doing, but the scale problem is yet another thing that makes me want to advise against people buying Battletech metals, when you don't know how something is going to be sized until you buy it (or take careful measurements against the hex base in online images!)

[Adrian Gideon]

You're talking about 100% new sculpts, scale is not something that can be 'tweaked' on an existing mini.  (Before someone jumps on that, you can scale things down a couple mm, with the possibility of screwing up proportions.)

And, without disagreeing with the gist of your rant—the Sagittaire is a decade old or more, it's hardly indicative of what IWM is producing lately.

[Siberian-troll]

Jeweller saw is your best frend.

I can cut half of inch from most of overscaled minis with some working - every time.

[D.Jensen]

Holy cow ST, those are NOT the same mini! Nice work! That is an amazing rebuild! I'm especially glad you fixed the guns.

Do you have WIP photos of this project?

[cavingjan]

As long as the list is of the older mechs that are too small.

In all seriousness, I can see a couple minis getting replaced but I doubt it will be in the volume you would want.

Your best bet is to lobby for them in the fan funding forum.

[beachhead1985]

(tl;dr version: I'm tired of the scale creep crap and I'd like to create a list of the most horrifically out of scale IWM Battletech minis so that if/when they switch to CAD/3D printing we can ask them to fix it. Hopefully entertaining rant follows.)


Y'know, I'm a good fanboy of Battletech's stuff, and I love IWM's sculpts; nothing is quite like opening up a blister and smelling that ralidium scent. I knew IWM made the metal Malifaux minis just by the smell.

BUT I AM SO FRAGGING SICK OF THE OUTLANDISH SCALING OF THEIR MINIS.

I bought myself a King Crab and a Sagittaire recently, and I will be dipped and swallowed if the Sagittaire looks like a 95-ton 'Mech next to ANYTHING in my collection. It's almost half an inch taller than that King Crab, which matches the fluff description of the OMEGA, the ****** Omega, as "half again as tall as the King Crab"! Hell, it's the same size as a MWDA ForestryMech.

I really want to like the Sagi mini - I do. It's a beautiful sculpt, with just enough articulation that making unique poses is a pleasure instead of a chore. But holy crap is it an example of the horrid scale problems which plague the IWM line. Seriously, if it was 20% smaller, it'd use a lot less metal and be sized the same as all the other flat-bodied assaults.

I... I don't even want to use it. It's too damn big. I have no idea what to do with it, except maybe masterpaint it and put it up on eBay to pick up a slighly more in-scale C3M unit for my Alpha Strike force, or maybe use the body as the source for some 2mm-scale starship, but damn. I feel like I wasted my money - and it's a lot of ****** money for ONE miniature.

Can we compile a list of the worst examples of overscaled minis that IWM has ever put out, so that maybe they can resize them the next time they make a mold for said minis? I'm not even sure where IWM is at in mold-making tech, whether it would be a slight pain in the butt or a massive undertaking not worth doing, but the scale problem is yet another thing that makes me want to advise against people buying Battletech metals, when you don't know how something is going to be sized until you buy it (or take careful measurements against the hex base in online images!)

So, at heart you're asking for a(n eventual) full revision of the line in order to bring everything into a consistent scale?

[Siberian-troll]

Holy cow ST, those are NOT the same mini! Nice work! That is an amazing rebuild! I'm especially glad you fixed the guns.

Do you have WIP photos of this project?

No, anymore. It's been done a four years ago. I've only scarce set of pics for that time.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/miniatures/warlord-heavy-bash/

[iamfanboy]

So, at heart you're asking for a(n eventual) full revision of the line in order to bring everything into a consistent scale?

Not really, because there really are only a (relative) handful of minis that have this problem as I browse what IWM currently has on offer, perhaps 20-25; what I'd love to do in a perfect world is compile the list, see which ones are popular enough to warrant a resculpt (I can't be the only one who thinks that the Sagi is worth owning!), and ask them to scale those down.

How did they do it for the Battleforce minis, the ones that are 'properly' scaled for tabletop if a hex is 30m wide? Apply that.

The problem is more endemic at the top end of the scale - assaults suffer the worst, though there are a few heavies that look as bad as assaults.


And this problem DEFINITELY still exists, Adrian Gideon. Go check out the sculpt of the Atlas III, and compare it to the Atlas II or Atlas - it's a half-head taller, 25-50% wider in every proportion, and buttugly to boot. I may not own TRO 3145 yet, but I'm pretty sure the Atlas III isn't a superheavy... Is it any fragging wonder it costs 17 bucks when it wastes so much metal?

[jackpot4]

While scale is nice in miniature games, it really doesn't make a difference in Battletech.  We are playing in 30 meter wide hexes, nothing is to scale in that sense.  Yes, big clumsy figures can be annoying, but unless you just throw them together they are typically not off balance - especially after placing them on one of the IWM hexes.

The one scale difference that slightly irks me is that the plastic minis from the intro box set and alpha strike boxes are so much smaller that metal minis.

[General308]

Battletech minis have never been in scale to each other.    I use to blame the mini companies.  But in truth since official height is listed on each mini there is no way to make them in scale.    But if you what a good laugh just put all the different Atlas minis made over the years side by side.

[iamfanboy]

While scale is nice in miniature games, it really doesn't make a difference in Battletech.  We are playing in 30 meter wide hexes, nothing is to scale in that sense.  Yes, big clumsy figures can be annoying, but unless you just throw them together they are typically not off balance - especially after placing them on one of the IWM hexes.

The one scale difference that slightly irks me is that the plastic minis from the intro box set and alpha strike boxes are so much smaller that metal minis.

Maybe, if the hexed game DIDN'T require minis to occasionally move with zero hexes between them, and if facing weren't a highly important part of the game (so that you could turn them so they didn't collide with each other like a four-year-old butting together GI Joes!), I'd be more okay with the occasional overscale job. It'd bug me from an artist perspective, but from a gameplay perspective it'd be forgivable.

BUT that's not the case, and some of the worst offenders LIKE being within melee range of each other. You can't just turn the minis so they don't hit each other, as facing is a vital part of Btech, so you're stuck hoping they don't damage each other's paintjobs - and cursing IWM's sculptors when they DO.

When a mini seriously overhangs its base, it ALWAYS ticks me off, as it's an example of bad mini design affecting gameplay. Super Dungeon Explore, for example, has lava wolves which despite being on a 1x1 base, are SIZED for a 2x1 base, and there's no provision for putting these guys on larger bases to avoid hitting other minis.

Same deal with Battletech. Everything SHOULD fit on a single hex-base unless it's one of the rare items provisioned to be larger; a little overlap is fine for the larger ones but when they come out like the Archangel, which is a quarter-inch over on each side?

How did IWM resize 'Mechs for the Battleforce-scale companies, anyway? I'm pretty sure they took a loss on those sculpts, but the technique should be applicable for what I'm asking for.


And I AM fixing the Sagittaire I've got. I'm using a reseen Marauder's hip piece and feet to scale down the leg height, and angling the torso so that it looks like the TRO image - it means cutting off the RT gun and replacing it, but that thing is horribly oversized for an MPL anyway.

Well, off to saw while I watch... hmm. Red Green Show?

But my point is, I shouldn't HAVE to mod it just to use it on my tabletop.

[cavingjan]

How did they do it for the Battleforce minis, the ones that are 'properly' scaled for tabletop if a hex is 30m wide? Apply that.

They completely resculpted them from scratch using the same QCC that they are currently using. Made new molds and all of the associated costs. I'm not surprised we haven't gotten any new ones in several years.

Again, fan funding may be the only way you are going to see this fixed and it will take many years and will probably be web exclusives.

[iamfanboy]

They completely resculpted them from scratch using the same QCC that they are currently using. Made new molds and all of the associated costs. I'm not surprised we haven't gotten any new ones in several years.

Again, fan funding may be the only way you are going to see this fixed and it will take many years and will probably be web exclusives.

Then I guess there is no solution - at least until 3D scanning and printing cuts them out entirely. Damnation, that isn't the solution I wanted.

[cavingjan]

I doubt you are really going to want to scan existing minis unless it happens to be from a fairly new working mold. You will get similar results from making a new mold from existing minis. Tiny casting error are now part of the new mold and adding to the new mold's tiny casting errors.

[Sereglach]

While scale is nice in miniature games, it really doesn't make a difference in Battletech.  We are playing in 30 meter wide hexes, nothing is to scale in that sense.  Yes, big clumsy figures can be annoying, but unless you just throw them together they are typically not off balance - especially after placing them on one of the IWM hexes.

The one scale difference that slightly irks me is that the plastic minis from the intro box set and alpha strike boxes are so much smaller that metal minis.

I understand and agree with iamfanboy's rant.  There are a number of minis that are sadly out of scale with each other.  I have a Lament in my force, and it's HUGE.  To put it in the pose I wanted I had to have my fiancée make a special base for the thing.  Sometimes the scale confuses the hell out of me.  Now, on top of it all, the scale DOES make a HUGE difference for those of us who play Alpha Strike.  Alpha Strike determines line of sight by . . . well . . . line of sight.  That makes a big difference for determining whether or not something has partial cover.  If a mini is bloody-frigging HUGE then it's a lot easier to argue against something having cover.  Also, considering Alpha Strike seems to be gaining in popularity as a means of being able to play Battletech, I expect it to be more of a problem in the future.  Think of it like playing N64's Goldeneye and allowing one player to play Oddjob (the tiny little nuisance that was nearly impossible to shoot) while the other player is using Jaws (that monstrous character that you'd hit if you just aimed in his general direction).  Eventually you'll have people fielding companies of nothing but the smallest scaled units, while someone using the newer units will be at a disadvantage.

As far as the Intro Box Set and Alpha Strike Lance Packs go, they're the exact same size as their metal counterparts.  If you buy the metal version of any of those miniatures, they're not any different in appearance to the plastic ones.  It's just the material.  They're also significantly older minis.  That should probably stand as some sort of testament to scale creep.  Now, granted, the quality of the newest minis is AMAZING; and you can also do wondrous things for posing them how you want during assembly.  However, that articulation comes at a cost, and that cost is size.

Part of that is a matter of business and a cost of options.  I get that, and I can't really hold that against IWM.  I want to be able to pose my minis as much as the next guy.  However, part of me is also screaming over why does my Lament (and Black Knight and King Crab, when I can get them) have to DWARF everything else in my arsenal, including my Atlas.  It makes for a heck of a quandary, doesn't it?

[DarkSpade]

Is there even an official height standard for them to scale off of? You can't really say mech A's mini should be taller than mech B's mini when we don't even know how tall either mech is supposed to be.  All we've really got to go by in most cases is weight and that's not always going to be a perfect indicator of which should be larger.   

[General308]

Is there even an official height standard for them to scale off of? You can't really say mech A's mini should be taller than mech B's mini when we don't even know how tall either mech is supposed to be.  All we've really got to go by in most cases is weight and that's not always going to be a perfect indicator of which should be larger.

There isn't and official height for them to scale off of.    You in some cases get in the fluff this mech is taller than this mech but you have no refrence to how tall either mech should be.

[ActionButler]

Battletech and scale have never gotten along well.  There is surprisingly little in the fluff about what size things actually are and the fact that nearly every single mech in the game uses unique parts only complicates things.  It would be one thing if more mechs were like the Invasion-era omnis, but the only similarity that most mechs share is that they have two arms, two legs, and some guns.

Vehicles pose an even bigger scale issue.  Most combat vees are described in the TRs as requiring crews of drivers, gunners, etc; yet most of the minis are significatly smaller than their mech counterparts.

I think the only way to achieve a consistent scale with the minis would be to start over from scratch, which isn't really a feasible option at this point.

[iamfanboy]

Battletech and scale have never gotten along well.  There is surprisingly little in the fluff about what size things actually are and the fact that nearly every single mech in the game uses unique parts only complicates things.  It would be one thing if more mechs were like the Invasion-era omnis, but the only similarity that most mechs share is that they have two arms, two legs, and some guns.

Vehicles pose an even bigger scale issue.  Most combat vees are described in the TRs as requiring crews of drivers, gunners, etc; yet most of the minis are significatly smaller than their mech counterparts.

I think the only way to achieve a consistent scale with the minis would be to start over from scratch, which isn't really a feasible option at this point.

Hrum, perhaps I need to clarify my point of view.

I don't care if 'Mechs scale consistently against each other or against fluff - that only leads to arguments like, "It says here the Warlord is 15.37 meters tall but by 6mm scale it's 16.21 meters!" Useless pedantry. If I wanted that, I would have gone into the Battleforce scale minis, and those are too small to have fun painting.

What I want is for minis to fit on the 30mm hexes, and my argument is that by sculpting 'Mechs larger and larger, IWM makes each new model:

1) More expensive for them to produce, and for us to buy (If that $17 Atlas III weighs less than 3-4 ounces I'll eat him!)

2) Less compatible on the tabletop, as they overhang their 30mm bases by significant amounts (which means they bang into each other and damage delicate paintwork), and look comical when compared to older sculpts still for sale. 

I was looking to make a list of the worst offenders when it came to being horrifically oversized, and maybe figure out some means of redoing them easily.


And Sereglatch, the King Crab is actually quite nicely sized. It does come with a 26mm hexbase of its own, which it does overhang slightly (mostly the arms), but not too bad.

My Sagittaire conversion using the Re-MAD hips/feet is coming along nicely; I'm just waiting for milliput to dry now. Still trying to decide if the torso ERPPC is too big or if I should grab a gun from my sci-fi bits.

I love converting. But I hate being FORCED to convert.

[DarkSpade]

Ah, so it's not an issue of the scale being off, it's an issue of the minis being too big.

[Adrian Gideon]

And this problem DEFINITELY still exists, Adrian Gideon. Go check out the sculpt of the Atlas III, and compare it to the Atlas II or Atlas - it's a half-head taller, 25-50% wider in every proportion, and buttugly to boot.

I'll have to look into that then. Because it should have been 4mm shorter than the II, the sculptor was told to go for that height, and throughout every step of sculpting reported that height. I know it didn't suddenly grow 10mm upon casting, so I'll look into it.

Butt-ugly has nothing to do with anything. It follows the source material.

[iamfanboy]

I'll have to look into that then. Because it should have been 4mm shorter than the II, the sculptor was told to go for that height, and throughout every step of sculpting reported that height. I know it didn't suddenly grow 10mm upon casting, so I'll look into it.

Butt-ugly has nothing to do with anything. It follows the source material.

I will freely admit that I do not have the minis in hand; and my eye-evaluation might have been thrown off by the fact that the Atlas II is on a standard hex-base and the Atlas III, as imaged, is NOT.

I did not see that until I took another look at them just now, so I might be wrong on that and I got no problem admitting it.

But I am quite sad that I have to pull bits from my box just to make the Sagi look right, and I hate the idea of having to bust out a jeweler's saw on any sculpt to make it match.

So the Sagittaire, the Warlord, Archangel/Deva, and what else are too huge?

[General308]

I will freely admit that I do not have the minis in hand; and my eye-evaluation might have been thrown off by the fact that the Atlas II is on a standard hex-base and the Atlas III, as imaged, is NOT.

I did not see that until I took another look at them just now, so I might be wrong on that and I got no problem admitting it.

But I am quite sad that I have to pull bits from my box just to make the Sagi look right, and I hate the idea of having to bust out a jeweler's saw on any sculpt to make it match.

So the Sagittaire, the Warlord, Archangel/Deva, and what else are too huge?

I think they are all too small.   Since we have gone from them not being in scale to them not fitting the personal size you want.  I think they should all be twice as big.   Because I would like them that way.    I know my argument for them being to small is silly.   But so is saying they are to big just because you think they are to big. 

My suggestion is find a bigger hex base.  It is a lot easier than cutting them all up

[iamfanboy]

I think they are all too small.   Since we have gone from them not being in scale to them not fitting the personal size you want.  I think they should all be twice as big.   Because I would like them that way.    I know my argument for them being to small is silly.   But so is saying they are to big just because you think they are to big. 

My suggestion is find a bigger hex base.  It is a lot easier than cutting them all up

Hexes are sized to fit the maps. Therefore, minis should be sized to fit on the hexes, so they don't overwhelm the maps.

If things are too small, you should go to N-scale; there's a lot of good oversized stuff out there from the MWDA era, N-scale kits of Dougram and Macross mecha, and even some on-the-quiet manufacturers of unofficial minis.

Hey! They're twice as big! That solves your problem, doesn't it?

Now stop strawmannin' my argument. :p

[General308]

Hexes are sized to fit the maps. Therefore, minis should be sized to fit on the hexes, so they don't overwhelm the maps.

If things are too small, you should go to N-scale; there's a lot of good oversized stuff out there from the MWDA era, N-scale kits of Dougram and Macross mecha, and even some on-the-quiet manufacturers of unofficial minis.

Hey! They're twice as big! That solves your problem, doesn't it?

Now stop strawmannin' my argument. :p

Battletech mini Hexs have always been larger than the map hexs. O0

[ActionButler]

What I want is for minis to fit on the 30mm hexes

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I'm not sure how I feel about the mini-to-hex issue.  It is definitely a bit strange, but I think that's just another example of where tabletop play (instead of hexmap play) provides the better option.  I actually wouldn't have a problem with smaller mechs, but smaller mechs means smaller Elementals, and I don't think my eyes can handle that, lol.

At this point, I'd even be happy if all of the mechs were exactly the same height just for the sake of consistency, though.  Looking at that old Hollander mini I have that stands as tall as some assault mechs, I just can't help but laugh.

[ColBosch]

I don't see anything wrong with compiling a list of the most egregiously oversized miniatures. Knowing which are problems would hopefully aid IWM when it comes time to resculpt them, or even encourage fan funding. I'd prefer it, however, if people could be civil about this issue. Most of the problems are from some time ago.

[General308]

Now if you really want a mini that causes a problem on a map hex look no futher than the Tarantula.  It takes a fortress of hexs up.

[ColBosch]

Now if you really want a mini that causes a problem on a map hex look no futher than the Tarantula.  It takes a fortress of hexs up.

Wow, yeah. That one is #1 on my short list of "needs resculpting." I'm not sure how it can be modified to fit onto one hex, though.

[worktroll]

Standing on tippytoes comes to mind ... but all the "sprawling quads" have the same issue: Bishamon & Fire Scorpion are just the same. And quadvees also will be ... interesting.