Author Topic: Add your picks to the list of IWM miniatures which need rescaling!  (Read 28445 times)

Feenix74

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The unseen Goliath is probably the most successful quad one hex wonder miniature.
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Knallogfall

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I just finished pinning and assembling a Dragon II. It is a very nice model, and a very nice replacement for the classic Dragon, and I am very much considering getting multiples of them, for the sake of conversions.

However, the thing is HUGE.

It doesn't look too bad next to the Wolverine II and Primitive Shadow Hawk - they go quite well together. It's a fair bit beefier than the MAD-4X, another recent model, but it is passable. The Karhu is also not too far off and they're of a similar weight too, and the Grim Reaper isn't so bad either.

Aside from that, though, it dwarfs almost every model I have, with most assaults looking fragile and weedy next to the Dragon II, even the Banshee 11X having a hard time staying relevant. It's not just that it's been scaled up somewhat, it's also incredibly wide. It's a sweet model, if a little tedious to work on for extended periods of time, and it seems like it could be fun to both paint and works as an eye-catcher.

I don't think the scale is bad for a war game, but it is impractical for a board game.

I agree with the sentiment that bigger models are impractical for the purpose of playing games on a hexmap, and I also feel casting them in pewter isn't optimal anymore if they keep putting out larger models like this. Wouldn't resin be far cheaper both to produce and transport due to lower weight? It's easier to work with, can hold details just as well, and doesn't put as much strain on the paint when being transported or used.

I do think larger models are a good thing, because the older ones are not very impressive to look at, while the more recent ones better match models for other games, and draw more attention. IWM are fully capable of delivering interesting and fun kits, and I hope they continue to do so. However, while they tend to match some competitors for price in certain areas, I do wish some steps would be taken to create cheaper entry points for newbies, like resin lance packs featuring basic models for each faction, using some up-to-date sculpts, because frankly I don't get a lot of good feedback on the CGL plastics at all save for the Timber Wolf. I'm currently looking at ordering a large variety of the more recent models, both because they look nice but also to get a better idea of how they scale up to each other. They look like fun projects, but I'm going to need bigger foam trays if they're all like the Dragon II.

On the topic of which 'mechs that need a redesign badly, look no further than the Jenner.

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So, does someone want to start a list of horribly out of scale 'Mechs? It should include both too large and too small.  It might prove useful for Fan Funding purposes....

Lyran_Rainboom

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I can certainly start the list off.

Egregious Giants

Warlord - Cockpit is inaccurate, legs are too long, and overall the miniature is just monolithic in size. Looks more like a 100-ton 'Mech than an 80-tonner -- and even if it was that weight-class, it would tower over some of those, too.

Dragon II - It's a good miniature, but as Knallogfall mentioned, it's huge. I've seen this thing standing beside a Fafnir, and it's almost as large.

Fennec - It might match the size of the Marauder and Hammerhands -- but those are heavy 'Mechs. When you pose it beside some medium 'Mechs of a similar tonnage, it looks much too beefy and tall.

Vulture Mk IV - The arms and legs don't need to be resculpted, despite the miniscule pegs that make attaching them a bitch. The torso on the other hand? You could land an Aerospace fighter on this thing. It's MASSIVE, and makes the legs look puny by comparison. I'd prefer a sculpt that looked closer to the art, instead of the DA mini.

Egregious Shrimps

Hunchback - The older sculpt is pathetically small, being dwarfed by several light 'Mechs, and the miniature itself is rather static. I would love to have it beefed up a bit, and maybe come with variant bits to make the Swayback.

Dervish, Enforcer III, Centurion - All have the same problem as the Hunchback.

Blood Reaper - Since this is a thread about scaling, I think that the legs of the Blood Reaper should be addressed. They're much too spindly and don't stick out as far as in the TRO art.

Khymerion

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I am going to toss Turkina Prime into the pile for having the curse of 'Get back in your hex!'.   Just too damn big for it's own good and hogging up too much real estate with those massive arms.

Kraken/Bane 4 is another 'Well, I guess I am not putting any mechs near it on the map/table top'.   The thing just eats table space and miniature storage space.

Behemoth/Stone Rhino 2 is not super bad but still is a pain on being a bit too wide for my tastes. 

You can't discuss real estate eaters without at least a ceremonial mention of the WoB celestial series, namely Archangel.

I love my Nightstar but gah I hate the miniature and it's arms that go out for what feels like miles.   It just has to consume the hexes on either side in front of it.   Hey, at least you can prevent anyone from meleeing you from the front sides!

Those are just the ones off the top of my head.



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Stinger

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A good start.

As a reminder to people looking to contribute to this list, let's keep things polite and factual.  Let's make it useful for people considering Fan Funding.


Col.Hengist

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I am going to toss Turkina Prime into the pile for having the curse of 'Get back in your hex!'.   Just too damn big for it's own good and hogging up too much real estate with those massive arms.

Kraken/Bane 4 is another 'Well, I guess I am not putting any mechs near it on the map/table top'.   The thing just eats table space and miniature storage space.

Behemoth/Stone Rhino 2 is not super bad but still is a pain on being a bit too wide for my tastes. 

You can't discuss real estate eaters without at least a ceremonial mention of the WoB celestial series, namely Archangel.

I love my Nightstar but gah I hate the miniature and it's arms that go out for what feels like miles.   It just has to consume the hexes on either side in front of it.   Hey, at least you can prevent anyone from meleeing you from the front sides!

Those are just the ones off the top of my head.

I swap the night stars legs with reseen marauder IIc legs. It looks pretty bad ass.
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iamfanboy

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I'm going to re-edit the first post with the list so far, and add some of my own observed oversized to it as well.

So there are three categories. Right now, we're just compiling the list.

RULES
(for organizing) When suggesting a mini, put the mini's name in BOLD with the category you think it's in after the name, then the reason. That way I can scan the post quick and pick it up.

GIANTS
For miniatures which are just too huge in every dimension, especially when compared to minis which are of similar in-game weight and size. 
Warlord
Dragon II
Sagittaire
Kraken
Behemoth
Nightstar

OFF THE BASES
For minis that might be correctly sized, but go off their bases by a ridiculous amount: increasing base size by 20% is what I'd use for evaluating this value.
Bishamon
Tarantula

SHRIMPS
For 'Mechs which are just too small, and have always been a bit shrimpy.
Hunchback


I'm not, like, 100% sure about including the venerable HBK on the list, as it is in the Intro Boxed Set and probably wouldn't sell well enough to warrant the resculpt (have to think like a business AND a fan!); on the other hand, designing a kit where the HBK has an empty slot where its cannon should be and 3-4 options, including the traditional cannon, would definitely perk up sales, particularly if it was sculpted interestingly.

I've got pictures and will be resizing them for a thread about the Sagittaire in the minis forum.


The Shrimps is a good idea too, I'll be maintaining that, but I do

ActionButler

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I humbly suggest...


Giant
Hollander

Off the Base
Stalking Spider

Shrimp
Dervish
Jagermech
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http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=56420.0

worktroll

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Just as a thought on the Jagermech - the existing torso, paired with Jager III arms & legs, is just about perfect. Perhaps we could minimise scultping there by re-using existing components?
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
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iamfanboy

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Just as a thought on the Jagermech - the existing torso, paired with Jager III arms & legs, is just about perfect. Perhaps we could minimise scultping there by re-using existing components?
Maybe have it sold as one kit, with the Jager/III torso in the same box? ....No, strike that, the Jager III is UUUUGLLY. The legs and arms are great, but that torso makes me want to vomit. It doesn't look nearly that... round.... in the artwork. No wonder the Jager III isn't for sale any more.


ABOUT MECHS IN THE INTRODUCTORY BOXED SET
I would say nay to redoing anything from the IBS, as there's a good chance redoing them would not be financially successful for Iron Wind Metals, and suggestions that they SHOULD redo them wouldn't be taken seriously.

The opportunity to redo them as more interesting sculpts before heading to plastic was already missed, but the nice thing about plastic is how easy it is to work.

worktroll

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Maybe have it sold as one kit, with the Jager/III torso in the same box? ....

No. Definitely not. You end up with a lump of Ralladium the size of a medium WarShip which sits around making you nauseous until you get the opportunity to either use it in an AFD joke mini entry, or the apocalypse arrives and you use your sling to defeat a minor demon with the JIII torso as ammo.

There are few other options.

W ;)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Bartholomew bartholomew

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Just got one. It is a light and bigger than most mediums and top heavy to boot. And noses out of the hex.

Psycho

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I would say nay to redoing anything from the IBS, as there's a good chance redoing them would not be financially successful for Iron Wind Metals, and suggestions that they SHOULD redo them wouldn't be taken seriously.

Who says the minis that you deem to be over-sized sell well enough to consider investing in a resculpt? If you're out to catalog all out of scale minis, isn't arbitrarily leaving out a large portion of them showing a heavy bias?

Just as a thought on the Jagermech - the existing torso, paired with Jager III arms & legs, is just about perfect. Perhaps we could minimise scultping there by re-using existing components?

That is a good example of hamstringing the process from yet another angle. That combination of parts does not exist in canon, nor does it have any art to support it. That would lead to players buying the "finished" product asking just what it is that they got, because it doesn't match any Jagermech variant in any TRO. Better to develop new art from the ground up and simply create a better mini from it. Even if you were to push for a canonization of such a hybrid, there would still be people looking for the original and III models. One only needs to look to the minis that have already been resculpted, like the 3050 omnis, to find examples where the old minis aren't entirely phased out because there are still some people who choose to continue using - and buying - the old models.

Louie N

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Hello all interesting discussion,

While I applaud redesigns to get the miniatures to match their in universe designs.  I have a off the wall suggestion.  Could we make a contest to design stats around what the current miniature actual is.

Take the example of the Dragon II that was mentioned.  The comment was made it is heftty and more like a assault mech in size. 

Maybe we can have a forum poll to vote that the miniature is actually represents a 90 Tonner, 80 tonner, etc...

Once the weight is selected people can submit designs base on the actual miniature. 

A second poll will be run to select the "best" design.  These "True Scale" designs can be collected as optional variants. 

We can configure a lot of designs before you see a re-sculpted miniature.

For what is it worth.

Thanks

iamfanboy

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Hello all interesting discussion,

While I applaud redesigns to get the miniatures to match their in universe designs.  I have a off the wall suggestion.  Could we make a contest to design stats around what the current miniature actual is.

Take the example of the Dragon II that was mentioned.  The comment was made it is heftty and more like a assault mech in size. 

Maybe we can have a forum poll to vote that the miniature is actually represents a 90 Tonner, 80 tonner, etc...

Once the weight is selected people can submit designs base on the actual miniature. 

A second poll will be run to select the "best" design.  These "True Scale" designs can be collected as optional variants. 

We can configure a lot of designs before you see a re-sculpted miniature.

For what is it worth.

Thanks
While this is certainly a good idea to get a reasonable standard going, I'd say that going a touch simpler and centering the poll around a single, iconic mini in each weight CLASS, rather than each weight, would be quicker and bear fruit more easily - a 45-ton 'Mech might be as big as a 55-ton 'Mech, but definitely would be smaller than a 85 ton 'Mech.

An odd notion that occurs to me probably because I've had 8 hours of sleep in the last three days is choosing a median weight of the miniatures in each class by grams, and trying to shoot for a size around THAT - let's say that the median weight of the light 'Mech miniatures is around 31 grams (just over an ounce), then checking the light 'Mech minis which weigh radically ABOVE or BELOW that and judging those ones as candidates for resculpting? The main reason to actually examine them is because the mini might have a built-in base or something which makes the mini weigh more without making it actually bigger.

Not that I can do more than guess at the actual weight of the miniatures, but maybe it's listed down somewhere in the IWM records?


And psycho, that was just a notion of how to sort the resculpts, and I didn't mean to set myself up as an arbitrary judge - 'cause I ain't, I'm VERY partisan, and that's why I started this thread. Part of the problem with this list is that it's so bloody subjective, and what some people want might conflict with what I and other folks want.

Frankly, what's probably gonna happen is resculpts will be fan-funded, which amounts to the same popularity contest.

Dammit, my eyes are crossing. I'm done for the night. I'll edit the first post with new stuff tomorrow.

GRUD

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ABOUT MECHS IN THE INTRODUCTORY BOXED SET
I would say nay to redoing anything from the IBS, as there's a good chance redoing them would not be financially successful for Iron Wind Metals, and suggestions that they SHOULD redo them wouldn't be taken seriously.

The opportunity to redo them as more interesting sculpts before heading to plastic was already missed, but the nice thing about plastic is how easy it is to work.

You have to remember though, IWM doesn't make the Box Set plastic minis.  Some company in China made those.  I'm still not sure how CGL got around that, unless they're paying IWM for each box set they sell?   ???  In the long run anyway, if IWM re-did the molds the Chinese Company used to make the plastics, only CGL stands to make any money from any plastic resculpts being done.  Again, Unless they're giving IWM a piece of the pie for their work.  I always had the impression the  "BT Rules" and "BT Minis" Licenses were Cut-In-Stone Separate, but the new Box Set seems to refute that.   :-\
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Medron Pryde

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I'm from the outside looking in, but I may be off track...but I think the licensing goes as follows:

IWM owns the rights to sell BattleTech miniatures.  Owns outright.  No need to re-sign a license agreement at any time.

Catalyst has a license to sell BattleTech games and supplements.  "Miniatures" packed in a game or a game supplement are "game components" rather than miniatures.  Hence why we see them only in the main boxed set and the Lance Packs that have Alpha Strike game cards in them.  They are game supplements and game components.
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GRUD

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Catalyst has a license to sell BattleTech games and supplements.  "Miniatures" packed in a game or a game supplement are "game components" rather than miniatures.  Hence why we see them only in the main boxed set and the Lance Packs that have Alpha Strike game cards in them.  They are game supplements and game components.

So it's a matter of Semantics then?  ???  I'm sure if it went to court for some reason IWM would win.  Anyway, aren't the "CGL Game Components" made from Molds from IWM?  I thought I'd read/heard somewhere that the AS Lance Pack minis are the same as the Beginner Lance packs?   ???  I've heard some complaints the AS minis are smaller than the IWM minis, but I've heard just as often that they're all the same size.  I've got the newest Box Set and just by eyeballing them it looks to ME like they're the same size, but I haven't stood any metal ones beside them to verify that.  I can't see them being very much smaller though.  Certainly not enough to make any difference on a hex map.
To me, Repros are 100% Wrong, and there's NO  room for me to give ground on this subject. I'm not just an Immovable Object on this, I'm THE Immovable Object. 3D Prints are just 3D Repros.

Something to bear in Mind. Defending the BT IP is Frowned upon here.

Remember: Humor is NOT Tolerated here. Have a Nice Day!

Hey! Can't a guy get any Privacy around here!

Medron Pryde

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More than just semantics, and from what I've heard from the outside it appears to be a cooperative venture.  The outside is not definitive of course, but the tonality of what I've heard from offhand comments suggests to me that Catalyst and IWM are...not stepping on each other toes at the very least...and may in fact be cooperating when it comes to the boxed sets and lance packs.  The second may be a stretch as I've not seen an evidence of that.  But every 'Mech in the boxed sets and lance packs are using existing IWM molds as their base, so I would assume that Catalyst asked permission to use them...

As for the minis in question, the older boxed set minis are smaller.  The new boxed set minis are beefier and much improved.  I really like the new ones.  <valley girl>They like totally rock.</valley girl>  :)
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Stinger

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Dammit, my eyes are crossing. I'm done for the night. I'll edit the first post with new stuff tomorrow.

Can you edit the title also to reflect what is trying to be done here? Something more akin to "A list of 'Mechs needing new scaling" or something like that...

speck

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I'm from the outside looking in, but I may be off track...but I think the licensing goes as follows:

IWM owns the rights to sell BattleTech miniatures.  Owns outright.  No need to re-sign a license agreement at any time.


IWM does not own the rights outright to produce battletech miniatures. But have a licensee with Topps and need to renew it when it's time.

Lyran_Rainboom

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Just got one. It is a light and bigger than most mediums and top heavy to boot. And noses out of the hex.

For clarification, you're talking about the first sculpt, yes? Not the 6S variant?

A couple more giants that came to mind are the Osprey and the Defiance. The former is literally the size of an assault 'Mech, even though it's a medium... and the cockpit barely resembles the TRO art's. The latter is a bit more accurate, but is needlessly oversized. I wish the back had some actual detail on it, too -- but that's a complaint unrelated to scale.

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The Thanatos is a real giant. I'd seriously considered buying one (as I really like the mech) even though it is a little too late, as I mainly play late succession/early clan invasion, but it's sheer size stopped me from purchasing it.

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For clarification, you're talking about the first sculpt, yes? Not the 6S variant?

A couple more giants that came to mind are the Osprey and the Defiance. The former is literally the size of an assault 'Mech, even though it's a medium... and the cockpit barely resembles the TRO art's. The latter is a bit more accurate, but is needlessly oversized. I wish the back had some actual detail on it, too -- but that's a complaint unrelated to scale.
yeah, the first sculpt. Just glad I didn't pay too much for it at the shop I found it in.

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IWM does not own the rights outright to produce battletech miniatures. But have a licensee with Topps and need to renew it when it's time.

Also, CGL and IWM are fully cooperating (or at least coordinating) on the plastic miniatures. That said, the previous poster is probably correct that it would not be cost-effective to cut new molds, but still, we can discuss the matter.
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Medron Pryde

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This is the first time I've heard that IWM has a license.

All previous indications have been that Ral Partha owned the miniature line, much like how FASA Interactive owned computer games before Microsoft bought them.

But you probably know better than I do.  ;)
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This is the first time I've heard that IWM has a license.

All previous indications have been that Ral Partha owned the miniature line, much like how FASA Interactive owned computer games before Microsoft bought them.

But you probably know better than I do.  ;)

I am pretty sure that even during the ral partha days they had a license for the miniature line from fasa. Well before fasa purchased ral partha, then they where one.

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Basically, yes. IWM inherited the majority of licences which Ral Partha had been involved with when IWM was formed, Phoenix-like, from the FASA/RP ashes ;)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Cache

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This is the first time I've heard that IWM has a license.
I want to say that I've seen the announcements several times before, but this is the only one I could dig up: http://www.ironwindmetals.com/d/node/63