Author Topic: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid  (Read 4358 times)

ocherstone

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ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« on: 13 January 2020, 14:36:41 »
As I play with the Clans at Tukayyid, I wanted to put some plausible units against each other.  With a ~100 point Cluster, for the game to be "fair" it would take about a Division (216 units) to face them, I've found.  I've been using a Level IIIs against Trinaries, which seems to go well.  As I want to leave it a little plug and play, I'm hesitant to get too descriptive, but personally I labelled the Level IIIs down to the Clan they face.  Here, however, I'll leave them unlabeled.  The possible divisions are as follows:

JAGUAR-367th
NOVACAT-417th
BEAR-103rd
FALCON-309th
SHARK-301st
VIPER-386th
WOLF-283rd

Those are all around a IV-mu that could be the below unit.

As the base Level II should be able to handle defense of a planet, I don't like all pure Level IIs (3 Mech Level IIs, 1 Vehicle, 1 Infantry, 1 Aerospace) though I acknowledge they make supplies easier.  Up to a half of a Level III would be found on a planet, though an entire Level III is possible.  I tried to pair some Level IIs when possible.  Also, I do not count infantry transport against the numbers, otherwise all of your vehicles are APCs.  IFVs (with more than a small laser or MG) do count, however.  I like a good mix to make games fun, but I'm willing to admit I may be in the minority.  So the question, I guess, would be would you take this Division against a Cluster?  What changes would you make within the Division?

Dark Regret III-xi
Sanctified in Battle II-alpha

HGN-732 Highlander
KGC-001 King Crab
CRK-5003-1b Crockett
CP-10-Z Cyclops
WVE-5Nb Wyvern
CTS-6Y Cestus

Driver and Chaser II-xi
Fury Command Tank II
GRF-2N Griffin
Magi ISV (Standard)
Mechanized Tracked Infantry Level I – Laser
Chaparral Missile Artillery Tank (Standard)
Mechanized Tracked Heavy Infantry Level I – Hvy SRM

Terminal Shock II-kappa
TLN-5V Talon
MCY-97 Mercury
Hussar HSR-200-D
Gabriel Reconnaissance Hovercraft (Standard)
Rapier RPR-100 x2

Hallowed Precognate II-iota
Chevalier Light Tank (Standard)
Chevalier Light Tank (BAP)
Motorized Infantry Level I – SRM
Motorized Infantry Level I – Laser
Heavy Wheeled APC 6/9 x6
Skulker Wheeled Scout Tank (Standard)
Skulker Wheeled Scout Tank (Standard)

Whispering of Hearts II-xi
STN-3Lb Sentinel
Galleon Light Tank GAL-200
Galleon Light Tank GAL-100
Galleon Light Tank GAL-100
Jump Infantry Level I – Laser (Anti-’Mech)
Tracked APC 6/9 x6
Jump Infantry Level I – Lt SRM (Anti-’Mech)
Karnov UR Transport (Standard) 11/17

Array Of Light II-kappa
Zephyr Hovertank (Standard)
Zephyr Hovertank (Standard)
Nightshade ECM VTOL (Standard)
HER-1S Hermes
SWT-606R Swift 13/20 x2

Elysian Guardians III-sigma
The Watchful II-delta
Fury – Royal
BLR-2C BattleMaster
WTH-1 Whitworth
OTT-7K Ostscout
J. Edgar Light Hover Tank (Standard) x2

Redemption of Origen II-theta
EXC-B2 Excalibur
Champion CHP-1Nb
ASN-23 Assassin
Demon - Royal 5/8 x2
Motorized Infantry Level I – Laser
Heavy Wheeled APC x6

The Volvocine II-omicron
Foot Infantry Level I – Needler/Stun
Mobile Headquarters (Standard)
LT-MOB-25 Mobile Long Tom Artillery
Foot Infantry Level I – SRM
Tracked APC 6/9 x6
HER-1Sb Hermes
SWT-606R Swift  x2

Pawn Takes Rook II-alpha
TBT-3C Trebuchet
STN-3L Sentinel
STN-3L Sentinel
THE-N Thorn
THE-N Thorn
THE-N Thorn

Indignant Serenity II-theta
LGB-0W Longbow
HEP-3H Helepolis
GLT-3N Guillotine
GLT-3N Guillotine
Chaparral Missile Artillery Tank
Foot Heavy Infantry Level I – Hvy SRM
Heavy Tracked APC x6

Stoic Deeds II-mu
Cyrano Gunship – Royal          
Jump Scout Infantry Level I – Laser      
Karnov UR Transport x6            
Saracen Medium Hover Tank                           
Saracen Medium Hover Tank          
Zephyr Hovertank (Standard)         
Zephyr Hovertank (Standard)         

Revelation By Obscurity III-zeta
Sacred Dream II-beta
TDK-7X Thunder Hawk
EMP-6A Emperor
KHC-001 King Crab
CRK-5003-1 Crockett
CRK-5003-1 Crockett
Alacorn Mk VI

Paramours of Morrígan II-xi
PLG-3Z Pillager
GLH-2D Galahad
OSP-15 Osprey
CTS-6Y Cestus
Gotha GTHA-500
Gotha GTHA-500

Martyrs and Piety II-eta
Hunter Light Support Tank
Hunter Light Support Tank
Striker Light Tank
Striker Light Tank
Vedette AC2
Vedette AC2

The Humata II-alpha
BL-9-KNT Black Knight
OTL-4D Ostsol
THG-11-E Thug
THG-11-E Thug
FLS-8K Flashman 
CRB-27 Crab

Virtue in Suffering II-mu
Behemoth Heavy Tank     
Ballista         
Lightning Attack Hovercraft (Royal)
Lightning Attack Hovercraft                   
Mechanized Wheeled Heavy Infantry Level I – Hvy SRM
Heavy Hover APC x6
UM-R60 UrbanMech

Children of Lir II-lambda
Foot Infantry Level I – Tranq/Stun      
Cobra Transport VTOL (Command) x1      
Cyrano Gunship             
Foot Infantry Level I – Pistols         
Cobra Transport VTOL x6         
Zero ZRO-116b               
Zero ZRO-116b               

The Undertow III-gamma
Sandboxers II-theta
AS7-D-DC Atlas
NSR-9J Nightstar
HGN-732 Highlander
Von Luckner Heavy Tank (Royal)
Von Luckner Heavy Tank (Star League)
Foot Heavy Infantry Level I – Laser
Heavy Tracked APC x6

Pretorian Augustii II-alpha
Exterminator EXT-4Db
PXH-3K Phoenix Hawk
LNC25-01 Lancelot
SCP-1N Scorpion
WSP-1A Wasp
WSP-1A Wasp

Ever True II-alpha
ARC-2Rb Archer
BMB-12D Bombardier
KTO-19 Kintaro
KTO-19 Kintaro
WVE-5N Wyvern
WVE-5N Wyvern

Othrys’ Thunder II-lambda
Rhino Fire Support Tank (Royal)   
Thor Armored Fighting Vehicle
Thumper Artillery Vehicle (Standard)
SRM Carrier
SRM Carrier
LRM Carrier

Blake’s Idylli II-alpha
HSR-400-D Hussar
Locust LCT-1Vb
MON-66 Mongoose
MON-66 Mongoose
MCY-97 Mercury
MCY-99 Mercury

Disinterred Understanding II-chi
Motorized Infantry Level I - Laser
Motorized Infantry Level I - Laser
Karnov UR Transport x6
Hammerhead HMR-HE
Hammerhead HMR-HE
IRN-SD2 Ironsides
IRN-SD2 Ironsides

The Dreadnoughts III-iota
The Rudras II-iota
Cyrano Gunship –Royal
Nightshade ECM VTOL (Royal)
Nightshade ECM VTOL (Standard)  x2
Foot Scout Infantry Level I – Pistol
Cobra Transport VTOL x6 (Standard)
Jump Scout Infantry Level I – Laser
Ripper Transport (Standard) x6

Tonaric Worship II-rho
Mechanized Tracked Infantry Level I – Field Artillery Long Tom x2
Mechanized Tracked Infantry Level I – Field Artillery Sniper x2
Mechanized Tracked Infantry Level I – Field Artillery Arrow IV x2
K-27 Ordinance Transport (Fusion) x6

Curtain Wall II-gamma
Black Knight BL-6b-KNT
Marauder MAD-2R
Grasshopper GHR-5H
Grasshopper GHR-5H
Bulldog Medium Tank (Standard)
Bulldog Medium Tank (Standard)

Disciples of Xuannü II-alpha
WVR-7H Wolverine II
CRB-27b Crab
FLS-8K Flashman
FFL-4A Firefly
CHP-3N Champion
OSR-3C Ostroc

Unsimple Plan II-eta
MON-66b Mongoose
CDA-2A Cicada
LCT-1V Locust
Gabriel Reconnaissance Hovercraft (Standard)
Gabriel Reconnaissance Hovercraft (Standard)
Jump Heavy Infantry Level I – Laser (Anti-’Mech)
Heavy Hover APC 8/12 x6

Il Terreo II-zeta
CRK-5003-1 Crockett
Chaparral
Vali
Marksman Artillery Vehicle
Zephyr Hovertank (Standard)
Zephyr Hovertank (Standard)

No Regrets III-omicron
Ex-Mortis II-xi
TRN-3Tb Trident
TRN-3T Trident
Kanga Medium Hovertank
Kanga Medium Hovertank
Beagle Hover Scout x2

Hidden Hand II-kappa
Pollux ADA Heavy Tank
Partisan Heavy Tank (Standard) x2
JM6-S JagerMech
Mechanized Tracked Heavy Infantry Level I – Laser/Flamer
Heavy Tracked APC x6
Mechanized Tracked Infantry Level I – Field Gun AC/5

The Fallen II-alpha
EXT-4D Exterminator
EXT-4D Exterminator
LNC25-01 Lancelot
LNC25-01 Lancelot
NTK-2Q Night Hawk
JKR-9R Jackrabbit-Joker

Novelty Lost II-omicron
PXH-2 Phoenix Hawk
CLNT-2-3T Clint
Nightshade ECM VTOL (Standard)
Jump Infantry Level I – Laser (Anti-‘Mech)
Karnov UR Transport (Standard) x6
SPD-503 Spad x2

Righteous Tormentors II-tau
Jump Scout Infantry Level I – Laser
Karnov UR Transport (Standard) x6
Mechanized Tracked Infantry Level I – Field Artillery Thumper
Mechanized Tracked Infantry Level I – Field Artillery Long Tom
Mechanized Tracked Infantry Level I – Field Artillery Arrow IV
J-27 Ordinance Transport  x6
Mechanized Tracked Assault Infantry Level I –SRM
Heavy Tracked APC x6

Faith in Darkness II-epsilon
KGC-000 King Crab
HBK-4G Hunchback
Alacorn Heavy Tank Mk VI
Alacorn Heavy Tank Mk VI
Bulldog Medium Tank (Standard)
Bulldog Medium Tank (Standard)

Tuo Da Gloriam III-eta
Spear of Laran II-alpha
King Crab KGC-000b
AS7-D Atlas
 ST-8A Shootist
WVE-9N Wyvern
WVE-9N Wyvern
STK-3H Stalker

Barong Ket II-alpha
BL-9-KNT Black Knight
BL-6-KNT Black Knight
THG-11E Thug
THG-11E Thug
GLT-3N Guillotine
GLT-3N Guillotine

Hammurabi Sanctified II-lambda
Puma-005b
Puma-005
Puma-005
Puma-005
Burke
Burke

Heralds of Aker II-gamma
SPT-N2 Spartan
FLC-4N Falcon
CRB-27 Crab
CRB-27 Crab
Demon (PPC)
Demon (PPC)

Mireuk’s Reign II-theta
Magi
Galleon-102
Galleon-100
Galleon-100
Mechanized Tracked Infantry Level I – Laser
Tracked APC 6/9 x6
Stinger STG-3Gb

Argus Panoptes II-omicron
CP-10-HQ Cyclops
Mobile Headquarters (Standard)
Foot Infantry Level I – Needler/Stun
OTT-7Jb Ostscout
Mechanized Hover Infantry Level I – Hvy SRM
Heavy Hover APC x6
Sparrowhawk SPR-H5 10/15 x2


And bonus one and a half III-alpha if you think it's low on 'Mechs.  Any of these could be substituted in as IIs or the whole III.  III-alphas are just so rare, I hesitate to use them as is.

Immature Provocations III-theta
Forlorn Hope II-alpha
Champion CHP-3N      
Starslayer STY-2C      
Kintaro KTO-19         
Kintaro KTO-19         
Kintaro KTO-19         
Ostroc OSR-2C         

The Rouge II-alpha
Exterminator EXT-4D      
Lancelot LNC25-01      
Clint CLNT-2-3U         
Firestarter FS9-S      
Assassin ASN-23      
Sling SL-1G         

Vehement Reaction II-alpha
Hussar HSR-200-Db      
Hussar HSR-200-D      
Hermes HER-1S         
Mercury MCY-99      
Mercury MCY-97      
Hermes HER-3S         

The Noxious II-alpha
NSR-9J Nightstar      
KGC-000 King Crab      
EMP-6A Emperor       
CRK-5003-1 Crockett      
HGN-732 Highlander      
SHG-2H Shogun         

Roland Regnum II-alpha
ST-8A Shootist          
AEM-01 Dragoon      
EXC-B2 Excalibur      
GHR-5H Grasshopper      
BMB-12D Bombardier      
VTR-9B Victor         

Basandere Voltigeurs II-alpha
Black Knight BL-9-KNT   
Blackjack BJ-2         
Guillotine GLT-4P      
Flashman FLS-8K      
Crab CRB-27         
Lynx LNX-9Q         

Trumpets of Paimon II-alpha
WHM-6R-DC Warhammer
MAD-1R Marauder
THG-11Eb Thug
THG-11E Thug
AWS-9M Awesome
BL-9-KNT Black Knight

Belial and Drekavac II-alpha
AS7-S Atlas
TI-1A Titan
VTR-9B Victor 
BNC-3Q Banshee
GLT-3N Guillotine
GLT-3N Guillotine

Belphegor’s Prime II-alpha
EXC-B2b Excalibur
STN-3Lb Sentinel
BMB-12D Bombardier
BMB-12D Bombardier
TBT-3C Trebuchet
KY2-D-02 Kyudo


nerd

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #1 on: 14 January 2020, 11:18:53 »
I'd pull the fighters off into separate Level IIs of their own. For set-pieces, I'd want to centralize the air support as much as possible.
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ocherstone

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #2 on: 14 January 2020, 19:29:43 »
I'd pull the fighters off into separate Level IIs of their own. For set-pieces, I'd want to centralize the air support as much as possible.

Then 1/6 of your force is aerospace. I'd rather have them in full Level IIIs. Plus, if the most a planet got was a Level II, itd be hard to hold anything with that Level II of aero. I do see your point, it may be handwaved as is with a not labelled Level II hiding.

cawest

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #3 on: 14 January 2020, 23:37:11 »
BattleTech 1685 Tukayyid module on page 27 has the mech list for this battle.  This includes the "Clan Busters" 

ocherstone

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #4 on: 16 January 2020, 13:42:17 »
Tukayyid sourcebook has no Royals, recovered 'Mechs (Emperor, Shootist,etc), or any of the "extinct" 'Mechs from Liberation of Terra ect.

All of the Clanbusters should be represented, though.

deathfrombeyond

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #5 on: 16 February 2020, 01:21:57 »
Then 1/6 of your force is aerospace. I'd rather have them in full Level IIIs. Plus, if the most a planet got was a Level II, itd be hard to hold anything with that Level II of aero. I do see your point, it may be handwaved as is with a not labelled Level II hiding.

So, your org chart makes sense for “peacetime” deployment of a Level IV where a planet might get a level III at most.


I wonder if senior officers for Tukayyid would have juggled around assets to consolidate aerospace forces.
If House Kurita is a punching bag, at least it's the weeble-wobble type that punches back. House Liao's like a speed bag that just hangs there and takes it. - Neko Bijin

ocherstone

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #6 on: 25 February 2020, 10:45:53 »
So, your org chart makes sense for “peacetime” deployment of a Level IV where a planet might get a level III at most.


I wonder if senior officers for Tukayyid would have juggled around assets to consolidate aerospace forces.

I appreciate that thought a lot. Thank you.

Would the Precentor IVs have enough time? And if the ComGuard schtick is combined arms, doesn't that screw with their integrity? If you're used to having a scout pair of aerospace overhead, does pulling them throw you off? Things to ponder.

deathfrombeyond

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #7 on: 29 February 2020, 15:36:32 »
I appreciate that thought a lot. Thank you.

Would the Precentor IVs have enough time? And if the ComGuard schtick is combined arms, doesn't that screw with their integrity? If you're used to having a scout pair of aerospace overhead, does pulling them throw you off? Things to ponder.

Another thought to consider for those who advocate for consolidating aerospace assets.

Shuffling/consolidating aerospace assets may have had more negative results than positive. After all, you don’t mess around with a team right before the World Series, right?

You can’t just get the chemistry of an aero squadron if they’ve never really worked together, right?

If House Kurita is a punching bag, at least it's the weeble-wobble type that punches back. House Liao's like a speed bag that just hangs there and takes it. - Neko Bijin

truetanker

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #8 on: 12 March 2020, 12:06:59 »
Background numbers crunching mode : ACTIVE

TT
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Hellraiser

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #9 on: 05 May 2020, 17:14:57 »
The possible divisions are as follows: 

I'd pull the fighters off into separate Level IIs of their own. For set-pieces, I'd want to centralize the air support as much as possible.

Then 1/6 of your force is aerospace. I'd rather have them in full Level IIIs. Plus, if the most a planet got was a Level II, itd be hard to hold anything with that Level II of aero. I do see your point, it may be handwaved as is with a not labelled Level II hiding.


Facts to consider per FM:C* :

1.   ALL L3's are Mixed Forces.   -   MOST L2's are PURE.
  -   I just counted the first 42 L2's in that list.   14 Pure,  28 Mixed.    The ratio needs to be flipped.

2.  Every Single L-III has "Some" ASF attached to it.   -   ASF Are deployed in no LESS than 2 at a time.     Divisions "AVERAGE" 39 ASF per Division.
- Easiest Generic deployment is to say 6 per L3 in their own Pure L2.   With every other Division having 36/42.
- The extra 6 fighters could be a 7th L2, or, you could have some Pairs of ASF attached to a Mixed HQ/Recon L2 for flavor.   But no Singles & no L3's w/o any ASF.

3.  No Division seems to be "Vehicle" heavy.  They are always the lowest element.  IIRC
 - The list above "seems" vehicle heavy but I didn't count them exactly.

4.  L2's are 6 units.  No More, No Less
 - I am seeing some L2's with more than 6 units in them.  I think that is a No-No.
 -  If you want ammo trailers then best suggestion is have it be 4 Field Arti Platoons w/ 2 Trailers in a single L2.
 -  Its only 2 gun types but you can have other L2's, after all a single L3 (Battalion) probably won't get 3-4 different gun types attached directly to it.




3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
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truetanker

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #10 on: 06 May 2020, 14:43:19 »
It's abstracted, but SO has the advanced force structures starting on pg. 329-335. Including nonstandard organize tables.

So when you see 80% next to a Level II or III, it means lose one unit or seven to make it, out of 6 or 36, respectfully.

Also remember, Comstar and Word of Blake, use 2 lighter units and 2 heavier units of a target weight class to determine their standard Level.

And finally, a good rhythm to remember is for every two Mech Level IIs, add a tank or an Infantry one.

Unless your making a Choir! ( Six Mechs and 36 suits of BA! )

I tend to run two of Mech, a Tank, an Infantry ( with intergraded transport support ) and a Choir with the last an Aero Level.

My infantry is usually 3 Motorized Infantry, Track ( this : https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Field_Gun_Infantry , but has six squads of six and armed with Mauser-960's. ) and using a pair of  Royal Rhino and a single Behemoth for support.

TT
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Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
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Hellraiser

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #11 on: 06 May 2020, 18:52:24 »
I tend to run two of Mech, a Tank, an Infantry ( with intergraded transport support ) and a Choir with the last an Aero Level.

That's pretty mech heavy I think.   18 Mechs.   50%.  Is that Alpha level?  I don't have the chart available & my memory failing me.

I run Choirs as 2 separate units that work together so it keeps the 36/216 pattern which seems like a pretty hard rule in FM:CS

For a "generic" C* L3,  I run 6 pure L2,   2 Mech, 1 Vehicle, 2 Infantry, & 1 Aero.

All fits in an Overlord easy enough & makes a good opponent for a "Combined Arms Battalion" of Mech Company + Supporting Assets.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

truetanker

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #12 on: 06 May 2020, 19:43:23 »
Yeah, Alpha...

Though to be honest, I use a combo of a Light, 3 Mediums with both a Heavy and an Assault Level II in my Level III. The Assault is that Choir, the rest is made up of different variations of Level Is it so messy...

Got SO? Check out pg.335 : Standard and Non-Standard Lance tables... their a hoot!

Throws people a loop!

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

worktroll

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #13 on: 07 May 2020, 00:32:56 »
4.  L2's are 6 units.  No More, No Less[/b]
 - I am seeing some L2's with more than 6 units in them.  I think that is a No-No.
 -  If you want ammo trailers then best suggestion is have it be 4 Field Arti Platoons w/ 2 Trailers in a single L2.
 -  Its only 2 gun types but you can have other L2's, after all a single L3 (Battalion) probably won't get 3-4 different gun types attached directly to it.

JUst as additional noise, I did have a discussion with the then-Line Developer Herb Beas about support. So you have a L2 of infantry, or battle armour. Unless they're going to leave two weeks early to arrive at the battle scene, you don't want them on foot - you want transport. But then do you have to use a whole level II of APCs to carry those BA or foot infantry?

I made the case that as long as the APC in question is very lightly armed - a couple of MGs, or the like - then it shouldn't be counted in a L2. So the L2 of BA has six heavy wheeled APCs attached from the transport pool, and it only counts as a L2. At the time, Herb didn't make this an official ruling, but was cool with the concept. Obviously if you're talking something like a Bolla (my true sympathies come out!), that counts - so a L2 might be two Bollas and four L1s of battle armour - two ridiing inside, and two outside. Bout not six Bollas and six L1s of BA.

And you're entirely right about L2s being pure in the CI era. But by the time my preferred flavour of Blakist is at maximum fun, it's much more fun mixing & matching! Power of Blake be with you all ...
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
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truetanker

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #14 on: 07 May 2020, 11:16:00 »
Worktroll~

Try mixing TAV-1s and -2s into two separate units alongside two WoB versions of the Heavy Wheeled APCs and it's bevy of Tau Infantry squads. I suggest eight Tau Zombies and the vehicles use Tau Wraiths. ( Since everybody assumes the drivers and gunners to be standard PBIs! )

Each APC carries 4 Zombie and 2 Wraith ( 1 full squad and the other two < .5 > TAV units ( 3 total ).

Should allow for four canned sunshines a turn!

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ocherstone

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #15 on: 11 May 2020, 11:23:38 »

Facts to consider per FM:C* :

1.   ALL L3's are Mixed Forces.   -   MOST L2's are PURE.
  -   I just counted the first 42 L2's in that list.   14 Pure,  28 Mixed.    The ratio needs to be flipped.

Then a less than Division battle gets boring.  I enjoy a good mix of units.  Others enjoy SLDF companies of Phoenix Hawks.  There are the following canon LII options-

Alpha-6M
Beta-5M1V
Gamma-2M4V/3M3I(Foot)
Delta-2M2V2I/4M2I/4M2V
Epsilon- 4M2I(Jump)/4M2V/6M
Iota-4M2I(Jump)/2V4I(mixed)
Kappa-3M1V1I(APC)
Lambda-6V
Mu-4V2I(APC)/4M2V
Pi-4V2I(Mechanized)/6A
Rho-6I(Foot)

The bold are in the (little) more consistant Twilight of the Clans.  Nevermind for a second about obvious typos (epsilon being 6M), and the doubled up and contradictory ones, I think we can say that mixed LIIs are pretty common. As an alpha-III would preclude a lot of options (and get boring, there's only so many ways to have fun with TR:2750 'Mechs.)  Should 3 or 4 be pure, alpha/lambda, sure.  But variety is the spice of life.


2.  Every Single L-III has "Some" ASF attached to it.   -   ASF Are deployed in no LESS than 2 at a time.     Divisions "AVERAGE" 39 ASF per Division.
- Easiest Generic deployment is to say 6 per L3 in their own Pure L2.   With every other Division having 36/42.
- The extra 6 fighters could be a 7th L2, or, you could have some Pairs of ASF attached to a Mixed HQ/Recon L2 for flavor.   But no Singles & no L3's w/o any ASF.

I don't have any single ASF, and every LIII should have at least 2.  There should be a paired or (x2).  If not, typo on my end.  As for 39, that's a stupid number, and I'm not sure what they are going for.  I think someone said close enough, which i'm ok with.  My issue is (as discussed above), before the invasion, a planet was lucky to get a Level II.   If ASFs were only in pure LIIs, no planet would have one on planet (they'd probably be station-bound).  Which, yeah, I guess, but then the combined-arms heavy ComGuard never works with their aerospace buddies.  I don't like it.  My other option was to remove ASF completely from the above groups, which I thought was cheating and not fitting in with the established combined-arms focus.

3.  No Division seems to be "Vehicle" heavy.  They are always the lowest element.  IIRC
 - The list above "seems" vehicle heavy but I didn't count them exactly.

4.  L2's are 6 units.  No More, No Less
 - I am seeing some L2's with more than 6 units in them.  I think that is a No-No.
 -  If you want ammo trailers then best suggestion is have it be 4 Field Arti Platoons w/ 2 Trailers in a single L2.
 -  Its only 2 gun types but you can have other L2's, after all a single L3 (Battalion) probably won't get 3-4 different gun types attached directly to it.

If you count APCs and non-combat vehicles, I'm sure it does.  I believe worktroll notes it below, but I strongly disagree with counting APCs.  In the above canon list, they have a 4M/2 FOOT infantry Level II in Fall of Terra.  That's ridiculous.  Throw an unwritten couple of APCs, now we're talking a combat-capable force.  Does Twilight of the Clans get around that by having a lamda-II of APCs and a rho-II of foot infantry? Sure.  Then a lot of my vehicle numbers are used up by "worthless" APCs and there's no chance I'm having an awesome LIV on Cluster fight like I want.

I'll grant the artillery types. I don't use too much artillery, and I was hesitant to have them not all just be ArrowIVs.  I still may.
« Last Edit: 11 May 2020, 11:26:21 by ocherstone »

Hellraiser

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #16 on: 11 May 2020, 15:13:13 »
Then a less than Division battle gets boring.  I enjoy a good mix of units.  Others enjoy SLDF companies of Phoenix Hawks.  There are the following canon LII options-

Alpha-6M
Beta-5M1V
Gamma-2M4V/3M3I(Foot)
Delta-2M2V2I/4M2I/4M2V
Epsilon- 4M2I(Jump)/4M2V/6M
Iota-4M2I(Jump)/2V4I(mixed)
Kappa-3M1V1I(APC)
Lambda-6V
Mu-4V2I(APC)/4M2V
Pi-4V2I(Mechanized)/6A
Rho-6I(Foot)

The bold are in the (little) more consistant Twilight of the Clans.  Nevermind for a second about obvious typos (epsilon being 6M), and the doubled up and contradictory ones, I think we can say that mixed LIIs are pretty common. As an alpha-III would preclude a lot of options (and get boring, there's only so many ways to have fun with TR:2750 'Mechs.)  Should 3 or 4 be pure, alpha/lambda, sure.  But variety is the spice of life.

Question.
Where are you getting those L2's from?
Scenario Books or from a Source Book?
I wouldn't put too much weight on scenario books.
They are, after all, just created for people to play a fun game & not be strictly adhered to as gospel canon.
Much like RAT's don't offer every single option available to a faction.

I also wouldn't put much weight on a greek letter designation for a L2, since after all, its the L3 that should have that designation & then all L2's included are not created equal.
Much like a L4 Division is not made up of L3's that have the same designation.
Its an average & inside those L3's will be different types of L2.

I completely agree that variety is spice.
I'm just saying if you are trying to come up with what entire Battalions/Divisions look like then your running a bit too many "Mixed" forces.

As I mentioned above, I really like L3's & set mine up to be mostly pure L2's but with options for a Mixed L2.
I find a 4 pure L2s  (Mech, Mech, ASF, Infantry) is a good core w/ a pair of Mixed (Tank/Infantry/BA/APC/Arti) in various degrees gives me a good ability to flesh things out.

Quote
I don't have any single ASF, and every LIII should have at least 2.  There should be a paired or (x2).  If not, typo on my end.  As for 39, that's a stupid number, and I'm not sure what they are going for.  I think someone said close enough, which i'm ok with.  My issue is (as discussed above), before the invasion, a planet was lucky to get a Level II.   If ASFs were only in pure LIIs, no planet would have one on planet (they'd probably be station-bound).  Which, yeah, I guess, but then the combined-arms heavy ComGuard never works with their aerospace buddies.  I don't like it.  My other option was to remove ASF completely from the above groups, which I thought was cheating and not fitting in with the established combined-arms focus. 
My bad then, I double checked, I thought the Sparrow Hawk was listed as a single.
But I do see the 2x now.

As for deployment per world.  I think the range was from "several L1s" to 2x L3.
Honestly, I don't know what the difference is between, "A L2" and "Several L1's"
6 seems like "Several" to me.
But I get that it might be less than a full L2.



Quote
If you count APCs and non-combat vehicles, I'm sure it does.  I believe worktroll notes it below, but I strongly disagree with counting APCs.  In the above canon list, they have a 4M/2 FOOT infantry Level II in Fall of Terra.  That's ridiculous.  Throw an unwritten couple of APCs, now we're talking a combat-capable force.  Does Twilight of the Clans get around that by having a lamda-II of APCs and a rho-II of foot infantry? Sure.  Then a lot of my vehicle numbers are used up by "worthless" APCs and there's no chance I'm having an awesome LIV on Cluster fight like I want.

I think the best suggestion that I have ever seen for this is to count "APCs" as "Infantry" in the total 216 count
So a "Pure" L2 of "Infantry" could be any of the following.
6 Foot Platoons
6 Mechanized-Wheeled Platoons
3 Foot Platoons + 3 Heavy Hover APC
3 Jump Platoons + 3 Karnov-UH

I like that option because it keeps things "honest" in the 216 count & yet also gives you the option of nothing but foot sloggers for garrison inside the walls of a fortification to some highly mobile rapid response infantry.
And really, that 3rd option makes for a great world garrison to some backwater 'B' class HPG.
Nothing but 3 platoons of infantry & their transports.
No tanks or mechs or fighters.
The kind of thing that 25-50% of C* garrisons would look like really.

Some other world in the area, a PDZ capital, or minor factory world, might rate 3x L2s.
And in that world you might see the "Pure" L2 of Mechs & "Pure" L2 of Fighters assigned along w/ an Infantry L2


Quote
I'll grant the artillery types. I don't use too much artillery, and I was hesitant to have them not all just be ArrowIVs.  I still may.
Like I said before, I'd just pick a single gun type for logistics reasons, & only assign that gun type to a L3.
A single battalion of 36 units doesn't need to call on the entire range of Artillery options.
And at a place where all those divisions were combined like Tukkayid, they could reassign fire from wherever they needed it I'm sure.
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Hellraiser

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #17 on: 11 May 2020, 15:17:01 »
Got SO? Check out pg.335 : Standard and Non-Standard Lance tables... their a hoot!

I do recall those!

I used them for some random "raiding" forces.

Also good to throw in a couple in larger TOE to represent battle losses or growth of a unit.

But I wouldn't use that table as the bases of how to form up a unit, lol.
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3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #18 on: 11 May 2020, 15:20:30 »
I made the case that as long as the APC in question is very lightly armed - a couple of MGs, or the like - then it shouldn't be counted in a L2. So the L2 of BA has six heavy wheeled APCs attached from the transport pool, and it only counts as a L2. At the time, Herb didn't make this an official ruling, but was cool with the concept. Obviously if you're talking something like a Bolla (my true sympathies come out!), that counts - so a L2 might be two Bollas and four L1s of battle armour - two ridiing inside, and two outside. Bout not six Bollas and six L1s of BA.

I totally see your points.

I just like to avoid the shenanigans that some folks out there try to use.

Like saying every L1 of Foot Infantry has 6 10 Ton 3026 Squad Level APCs attached to it so they can squad deploy.
So they get to move 12 units around when it should have been 1.

People like that are why we can't have nice things.

And I really did like the idea that someone posted on these boards somewhere about having those same Heavy APC/Karnov type units with little to no weapons just counting as "Infantry Slots" for the division.

That way your precious few "Tank" slots are loaded up with proper combat vehicles.


PS.
On a side note.
What do you think of the following for a definition of APC v/s IFV.

Must have "Cargo" space & mount "No more than 1 weapon with a range greater than 3 hexes that must not be able to inflict more than 7 points of 'Average' damage".

I came up with that wording so that something with a single SRM-4 or Clan Medium laser still counts as an APC.

Multier & Blizzard for example.

But it excludes the Karnov-BA & Cavalry-Infantry for example which are at the point of mounting multiple Medium Lasers & Electronics.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: 11 May 2020, 21:18:16 by Hellraiser »
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

worktroll

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #19 on: 11 May 2020, 17:45:15 »
I think that's fine, Hellraiser. I tend to use AS stats, so "more than 1/0*/0*" tends to be my cutoff. Your version also makes sure that the Badger & Bandit don't make the cut, which is sort of my acid test. Not many folk argue a Magi UICV or Bolla are "harmless APCs", but ...

And I'd be kind of pissy at people trying the squad deployment trick. Face it - a level II with 72 units on the map is asking for a can of instant sunshine. Fortunately I barrack for the faction who specialises in that :) What's that marvellous phrase from the League - "Asset Management Warhead"?
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Daryk

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #20 on: 11 May 2020, 18:04:53 »
72?  Am I doing the math wrong?  A Level II is 6 Level Is, and a Level I can be a Platoon, with 6 squads... so that would be 36?  ???

worktroll

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #21 on: 11 May 2020, 18:19:39 »
Plus 36 10-ton APCs to carry them. Mind you, that could be used to proxy for the "ComGuards" public appearances prior to Myndo Waterley ...
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Daryk

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #22 on: 11 May 2020, 18:27:07 »
Isn't that a Level III of APCs?   ???

worktroll

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #23 on: 11 May 2020, 18:41:15 »
See previous conversation about "not counting lightly armed/armoured APCs when making levels" :)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Daryk

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #24 on: 11 May 2020, 18:42:39 »
Ah, with that in play, sure...

ocherstone

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Re: ComGuard Division at Tukayyid
« Reply #25 on: 11 May 2020, 23:00:43 »
Question.
Where are you getting those L2's from?
Scenario Books or from a Source Book?
I wouldn't put too much weight on scenario books.
They are, after all, just created for people to play a fun game & not be strictly adhered to as gospel canon.
Much like RAT's don't offer every single option available to a faction.

I also wouldn't put much weight on a greek letter designation for a L2, since after all, its the L3 that should have that designation & then all L2's included are not created equal.
Much like a L4 Division is not made up of L3's that have the same designation.
Its an average & inside those L3's will be different types of L2.

They're from Fall of Terra, Dragon Roars, and Twilight of the Clans Scenario Books.  Tukayyid is a bit hit and miss.  I'm aware of their limitations, but when all available sources name and letter LIIs, I think we can agree to letter and name IIs. They're not consistent and some make little sense, which is why I wrote up my own descriptions and components for each.  II-mu's can be what you want, I have mine as I have them.  The pre-Schism ComStar just never hit me as a "let's wing it!" kinda group.  I enjoy the labels.  The number of 'Mechs/vehicles/infantry in each III roughly correlate to the numbers for IVs from FM:Comstar.

Any vehicles I have as "free" already match what we agree to here.  Magi/Turhans all count as IFV.  APCs and original Karnovs don't.  I usually imagine there's a whole APC level III off screen, playing with their vehicles, waiting their time to shine.

 

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