VotW: Zhukov Heavy Tank

[False Son]

All this speculation, and the TRO entry addresses it all:

Variants
Having it well-designed from the start and lacking considerate customer interest, Aldis Industries never saw the need to produce a notable variant of their Zhukov. Additionally, its straightforward construction allows for easy modification, making upgraded or adapted Zhukovs a common sight on battlefields.
However, the Zhukov plant on Terra remains the big unknown in this equation. Under direct control of the Word of Blake, neither type nor figures of produc- tion have leaked out in several years. Judging from the other gadgets the Word fields in its armies and the potential of the Zhukov itself, an ugly surprise might well be stacked in the factory’s parking lots.

[SCC]

That suggests that there is at least one factory variant of the Zhukov and that there are multiple field upgrades around

[Jellico]

you'd lose the potential for causing a PSR though. the stock Zhuk' can force a PSR if both guns manage to connect.. and with the ammo load you have, you need to hold your fire until you have good to hits anyway, so the odds of triggering a PSR are pretty good.

Except fighting at 15 (realistically 10) hexes doesn't cut it in the modern age. Especially at 3/5MP. Heck. It didn't cut it in 3025. The Manticore was always a better option than the Patton thanks to its reach.
LB-Xs do something about it, but they are a generation too late. 18 hexes is good in 3025 but by 3055 you want 21.

The Zhukov is, was, and remains stuck in the middle. It can't go short range because the Demolisher does it better. Going long dilutes its firepower too much and the required changes make it no longer a Zhukov. So it is a middle ranged fighter trying to survive in a world of PPCs and ERMLs.

[Colt Ward]

Eh . . . in small battles perhaps, but it can grind its way forward in large scale fights.  I think the 18 hex range is enough in a combined arms environment because it will be ignored for mechs until it makes itself known.

Moonsword- sure that is what the fluff says but the last variant you are mentioning could have come out . . . what 3055/58 or later, the C3i to C3s/ECM is a recent plot device.

[False Son]

That suggests that there is at least one factory variant of the Zhukov and that there are multiple field upgrades around

There are factory variants, the WoB ones.  They may not have been seen until attacks on the Protectorate proper began.  As for field mods, I suspect that the statement refers to in field modifications rather than factory produced packages.

[marauder648]

The Zhukov is a great tank if you're on a budget, simple to maintain ICE engine, two large bore guns and a nice simple missile system.  What more could you ask for if you're a world that's lacking in mech defences and are looking to bolster your armed forces without breaking the budget.

[Bosefius]

Moonsword- sure that is what the fluff says but the last variant you are mentioning could have come out . . . what 3055/58 or later, the C3i to C3s/ECM is a recent plot device.

It COULD have but it didn't. It came out as listed. It's part of the revamping WOB equipment for use by other forces during and after the Jihad. Your decision to use it in an earlier setting is, as always, your own and why it's always been said "whatever works in your game". However, per the official sources, it could not be used prior to 3076

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3649/zhukov-heavy-tank-liao

[JadeHellbringer]

There are factory variants, the WoB ones.  They may not have been seen until attacks on the Protectorate proper began.  As for field mods, I suspect that the statement refers to in field modifications rather than factory produced packages.

I'd back that. I can see the LBX version (well, both) being field modifications, though they're pretty extensive ones (in particular the CASE). But the VSP model? New engine, all-new weapon array, etc.? That's about got to be a new factory model.

As for why the Word would build 'stock' Zhukovs in the '60s? (since it was mentioned earlier) Easy, I mentioned it in the article. Export. The Word was trying to hire merc units everywhere they could, and luring in units with new equipment was a common practice- several Project Phoenix designs are the result of this practice. A platoon of Zhukovs might not be flashy, but they're solid armor units, even in the early Jihad- so as a 'bonus' to a merc unit, they'd be a pretty good way to sweeten the pot. They also are ideal for the Protectorate Militia- cheap, homemade, tough as nails, and effective still even despite their low tech level. And on the defensive (as the Militia was intended to always be), the tanks wouldn't be likely to proceed far from supply lines-which means that pitiful ammo load is less of a problem than it would be otherwise.

So, yeah-if the Word kept building the stock model for a while... great, good for them. Few vehicles of the 4th SW era remain as effective in the Civil War era to the extent of the Zhukov, so why upgrade too early? (With apologies to the Manticore, which of course was MUCH better prior to its 'upgrade', but that's for another day.)

[False Son]

They also are ideal for the Protectorate Militia- cheap, homemade, tough as nails, and effective still even despite their low tech level. And on the defensive (as the Militia was intended to always be), the tanks wouldn't be likely to proceed far from supply lines-which means that pitiful ammo load is less of a problem than it would be otherwise.

Bingo.  Having to raise dozens of largely conventional based regiments in a few years are going to need cheap, numerous and low tech tanks.

[Molossian Dog IIC]

Low-cost and also Low-Tech, yes. And if for no other reason than making sure the dudes on site know how to maintain and repair the stuff you are equipping them with. I suppose militia support personnel knows jack about XL engines, Plasma Rifles etc.

[Mattlov]

Zhukovs are solid, if uninspiring.  I like them a lot as a solid battle tank.

But it has the same problem several 3058 tanks did, and that is the random SRM rack.  Zhukovs and Brutus are the biggest offenders to this.

Want a great Zhukov?  Drop the SRM 6 for three tons of ammo and another ton of armor.  This thing should be punching people in the face, not using SRMs to finish stuff off.

[Auren]

SRMS on a tank like this are meant to supplement close in firepower and for finishing off/parking enemy armor/war crimes. Or smoke, or a half dozen other utility purposes. While yeah, you COULD cram in three tons of ammo and another of armor but let's be honest, the options you lose are not worth the additional ammo.

[Mattlov]

SRMS on a tank like this are meant to supplement close in firepower and for finishing off/parking enemy armor/war crimes. Or smoke, or a half dozen other utility purposes. While yeah, you COULD cram in three tons of ammo and another of armor but let's be honest, the options you lose are not worth the additional ammo.

I disagree on this one.  This is a battle tank.  It isn't going to be by itself on a battlefield.  It is there to cause damage, not be a multi-use tank.  THere should be support units with it to have the utility SRM launcher or screening abilities.

[Scotty]

I disagree on this one.  This is a battle tank.  It isn't going to be by itself on a battlefield.  It is there to cause damage, not be a multi-use tank.  THere should be support units with it to have the utility SRM launcher or screening abilities.

Insurance.  It's nice to say that there will always be something to support it, but in practice that sort of thing is frequently "If only".

[Maelwys]

There's several things going on here:
1. The Word of Blake doesn't produce the Zhukov, Aldis Industries does.  Same deal with the Behemoth and Schrek, both of whom didn't see upgrades for a long while.  While we tend to conflate the two in BattleTech, there's a difference between a government who owns the soil and the corporations doing the building, especially when you start dealing with the bigger multi-nationals like Aldis, StarCorps, or Earthwerks.  It's worth noting that Aldis of Betelgeuse wasn't doing anything either and that factory also had lines for all three vehicles.  They're not really a company that does a huge amount of innovating these days.

Its possible, but much of the time the factories in BT work as an extension of the faction which owns the planet that the factory is on. It also wasn't unusual for the WoB to meddle with the various Companies that sold them war material (depending on how you take the fluff of "Direct control" in the Zhukov writeup, the WoB may have been controlling the shots).

And Aldis was up to upgrading some things. The SRM carriers were upgraded (I don't recall off hand now if the LRM carriers were as well) and Aldis built the Regulators for the Capellans. So they were doing some innovating and rebuilding.

2. Some designs were working quite effectively as it was, so it may not have been worth the time and energy to start fiddling with them.

Like that's really ever stopped upgrades from being produced :)

3. You need something cheap and mass produced you can give to not-quite-trusted or second-tier militias, use as merc fodder, or otherwise hand out as a party favor.  Zhukovs command more respect than Vedettes do in that regard.

The WoB was renown for giving away high tech units to factions to either bribe them or tie they to the WoB via the company store syndrome. Likewise, they didn't skimp on providing the militias with viable upgraded units. They're the ones giving Protectorate Militia units PA(L) units and entire Level IIIs of Demon tanks (Admittedly, IIRC, the original Demon doesn't have that much upgraded technology, but more than the Zhukov, and its never mentioned which Demon the PM was getting).

Likewise, the LBX Zhukov isn't that expensive. It gains about 1.6 million C-bills (About doubling its price). Considering the other things the WoB was doing, I just don't see the cost being that big of a stopping point.

4. The Word's big push to refit started when they really doubled down on C3i in their conventional assets.  That was more of a late 3060s occurrence.

c3i assets were in place prior to that. Its still kind of questionable that only ~20ish% of their conventional forces in production on Terra were upgraded prior to the Jihad. The WoB knew what they were going after. They were willing to help upgrade other forces, so why not their own Conventional forces?

5. Vehicle upgrades only saw a publishing opportunity once between 3050 and the early Jihad - in RS:Upgrades, which didn't hit everything in TRO3058 and was not able to take advantage of CGL's freedom to produce RS PDFs instead of print products.  Then you get new variants beginning with TRO3050U and TRO3058U, which dated a lot of them to the then-current era.  This is also when we saw a clear emphasis on creating new variants for many of the older designs.  Even then, some vehicles didn't see upgrades until as late as TRO3085 or even TRO3145.

True.

6. Vehicles are not BattleMechs.  They don't get upgrades funded as aggressively as BattleMechs do.  While ComStar and the Word are somewhat more liberal in this regard, they're still following the general trend.

Eh, theoretically. Its still quite odd in my book :)

[Scotty]

You're arguing as if something should have happened when canonically it didn't.  Should haves and could haves aren't going to suddenly make the tank appear a decade earlier than its introduction date.

Whatever works for your game, go for it.  Just don't confuse what you want to happen with what "should" happen.

[Maelwys]

There are factory variants, the WoB ones.  They may not have been seen until attacks on the Protectorate proper began.  As for field mods, I suspect that the statement refers to in field modifications rather than factory produced packages.

Not only not seen, but also not put into production until 3072. Even 3058U's writeup talking about "ugly surprises" in the form of upgraded Zhukovs are premature.

As for why the Word would build 'stock' Zhukovs in the '60s? (since it was mentioned earlier) Easy, I mentioned it in the article. Export. The Word was trying to hire merc units everywhere they could, and luring in units with new equipment was a common practice- several Project Phoenix designs are the result of this practice. A platoon of Zhukovs might not be flashy, but they're solid armor units, even in the early Jihad- so as a 'bonus' to a merc unit, they'd be a pretty good way to sweeten the pot. They also are ideal for the Protectorate Militia- cheap, homemade, tough as nails, and effective still even despite their low tech level. And on the defensive (as the Militia was intended to always be), the tanks wouldn't be likely to proceed far from supply lines-which means that pitiful ammo load is less of a problem than it would be otherwise.

The WoB was known for giving merc units hightech units in order to buy loyalty, not just units. Either as a bribe or as an attempt to force them into a company store. Considering the 3060 Battlefield, I'm not sure how much of a bonus 3030 era unit would've been seen as. Sure, its nice to have 4 new tanks, but its going to suck when your opponent out-ranges you, using a common upgrade that's been around for a while.

The WoB was also willing to spend on the Protectorate Militia. Each regiment got a battalion of Demons, I don't think a non-insane upgrade of the Zhukov was really going to break the bank. As for tech issues, the Protectorate Militia seemed pretty hightech in other regards.

It just doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe if it had been the only design, sure, you could make some sort of exception and say it got overlooked. But we're talking about the Zhukov, the Schrek, the Behemoth, as well as the Rhino, and if you want to push out to Epsilon Eridani, the Brutus as well. You can also add in the Puma if you want, which is also produced on Terra, but remains at an Introductory tech-level until 3069 (The Puma also sort of kills the idea of the Protectorate Militia not being able to handle advanced Tech, since we're talking targeting computers, ERPPCS, advanced electronics, B-Pods, Heavy PPCs, MMLs, etc).

[pensiveswetness]

The other Word version was a bit more far-reaching in its changes. Switching to an XL fusion engine means a huge increase in price, but with no change in speed that means a huge savings in weight- and the addition of ten heat sinks. The Zhukov then makes use of those new features by replacing the autocannons with large variable-speed pulse lasers, tied to a C3i again because of course they are. The SRM rack is replaced by an MML-7 with a couple of tons of CASE-protected ammo, and a small amount of armor is added to make the vehicle a bit more durable than it already was. This is an odd duck- it certainly has advantages over the original, of course, but is it a great tank? I'm not overly a fan of it, but it's worth testing sometime to see what you think.

I've noted a irregularity with the WoB Zhukov: by the numbers (from both HMV's obsolete tabulation as well as simple Excel formulas), the Zhukov [WoB] is 6 tons less than 75 tons. I've not checked errata for RS3058U Inner sphere but is that 6 tons intentionally blank?

[YingJanshi]

I've noted a irregularity with the WoB Zhukov: by the numbers (from both HMV's obsolete tabulation as well as simple Excel formulas), the Zhukov [WoB] is 6 tons less than 75 tons. I've not checked errata for RS3058U Inner sphere but is that 6 tons intentionally blank?

6 tons would be enough for a Level II of BA...don't know if it's supposed to carry any though...

[Colt Ward]

Nope . . . and I am not sure what you are looking at, its a pretty simple conversion I was able to do on my HMP easy . . .

2 LB10X in turret w/2t ammo
SRM6 downgraded to SRM4, still 1t ammo
C3i computer put in
CASE put in
Armor & Engine remain the same

Really they should have gone for FF or HFF armor, the AC ammo lot is too small IMO.

[JadeHellbringer]

I think he means the WoB model with the large VSPs in place of the cannons, which does make a (drastic) engine change. I'll run the math on it later tonight, but I don't recall any weirdness jumping out at me when I did this article. (Then again, I wasn't watching all that closely)

[nckestrel]

I believe they increased the speed to 4/6 with the engine change, and that's the missing tonnage.

[nckestrel]

I believe they increased the speed to 4/6 with the engine change, and that's the missing tonnage.

Yep, here it goes.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=5933.msg444081#msg444081

[JadeHellbringer]

Didn't even notice that. Good catch! (Though the six-ton battle armor bay is a neat idea too, very reminiscent of the Turhan actually.)

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, I love the Zhuk . . . IMO its a great tank but I felt it had been overlooked for a long time simply because the AC/10 to LB-10X switch is just too logical.  Give it a new shell of FF (or HFF if late enough) and its going to be a solid machine for anyone who wants to shell out a bit under 3mil C-bills.

[Weirdo]

Didn't even notice that. Good catch! (Though the six-ton battle armor bay is a neat idea too, very reminiscent of the Turhan actually.)

That would make for a really interesting evolution of large IFVs, going from Turhan to Magi to Zhukov to Trajan...and made WoB heavy infantry forces even scarier than they already are.

[Alexander Knight]

That would make for a really interesting evolution of large IFVs, going from Turhan to Magi to Zhukov to Trajan...and made WoB heavy infantry forces even scarier than they already are.

Even scarier?  Instead of a Level I of battle armor, six squads of Zombies.  :D

[JadeHellbringer]

Even scarier?  Instead of a Level I of battle armor, six squads of Zombies.  :D

[marauder648]

How scary actually areTau Zombies?  I was looking at their rules and they seem tough but they are slow and firepowers not that great.  In the RPG sense yes they are utterly terrifying but what are they like in Battletech?

[Scotty]

The burn to a crisp like every other kind of infantry under plasma guns.  Scary in cities, much like regular infantry, but ultimately very good only in that limited application.