Fight Night: HER-2M vs WLF-1

[Minemech]

 Given a 2x2 random mapsheet situation, with 100 games, who do you think will prevail more often, and in what ratio of games? Why?
HER-2M= Hermes II Mercury
WLF-1= Wolfhound
 Assume 4/5s

[Minemech]

[Corrected]

[Sartris]

i picked the 2M being marginally superior just based on gut. i feel like the fights will largely boil down to how many licks the wolfhound can get in before the hermes closes and initiative. once the fight has moved into point blank, the hermes has the decided firepower advantage.

[ANS Kamas P81]

To be fair, the Herpes does have an important 5 ton advantage over the Wolfhound.  It's a touch faster, but neither jump which means terrain is going to be REALLY important.  I think the WLF can kite with the LL long enough to open some ho

Assume 4/5s

ooooor not.  Armor's about the same pointswise, but...well, everyone's going to need to land three hits from MLs to get internal damage.  The LL on the Wolfhound does make it through most locations in two hits, but that's going to need a lot of luck.

Wolfhound looks cooler though, so it obviously wins.

[Liam's Ghost]

I'm going with too close to call. The Hermes II has a minor advantage in both speed and practical firepower, but, and it's a THICC but, the ammo placement is absolutely terrible. The machine gun ammo is all alone in the left torso, so any penetration there has a good chance of turning the mech to scrap.

If the ammo were placed literally anywhere else, I'd probably favor the Hermes II in this engagement just because it can hit slightly harder in a sustainable manner.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Marginal advantage to the Wolfhound- the added punch of the large laser and the lack of exploding parts beats the Hermes II's slightly better speed.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

I went Strictly Superior for the Wolfhound.  Armor is essentially the same, with only a couple extra structure points on the legs and torso.  So essentially equal durability, barring ammo cookoff on the Hermes.

Speed, the Hermes is slightly faster, but not very much.  And that extra speed means carrying 2.5 tons less in weapons and heatsinks than a Wolfhound, despite being five tons heavier.

Firepower, well this is where I consider the difference decisive.  Both carry three medium lasers, but the Wolfhound has a large laser.  Not only superior punch, stripping half or more on any section it hits.  Also the reach, that large laser's medium range is roughly the long range of the reach of the Hermes's best weapons.  That range band advantage, well I think it will hit more often.  The Hermes does have better point blank firepower, but basically just the machine guns.  Not enough if the Wolfhound likely gets a few hits in before it turns into a close range brawl.

[Liam's Ghost]

I feel like there's a lot of faith being put in the superior firepower of a mech with only ten heatsinks.

Mixing the large laser with any number of mediums is straining your heatsinks at least to a degree. Combining it with enough mediums to outshoot the Hermes II means accepting penalties each time you do it. Which means you can only outshoot him occassionally, at which point you have to surrender firepower advantage to a more mobile opponent while you cool off, or you're hoping his armor runs out before your heat capacity.

If the Hermes II was a smaller or thinner armored design, I could see that working. But it isn't.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Large Laser is not by itself a serious advantage due to the Wolfhound's heat sinks, but combined with the Hermes's weaknesses it does give a bit of an edge to the Hound.

[Liam's Ghost]

The Large Laser is not by itself a serious advantage due to the Wolfhound's heat sinks, but combined with the Hermes's weaknesses it does give a bit of an edge to the Hound.

Could you clarify what you mean? The only significant weakness I can see relative to the wolfhound is the placement of the machine gun ammunition.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There's the machine gun ammo issue, but also the Hermes II has everything but one flamer mounted on its right side.  it's got worse firing arcs and is much more vulnerable to losing a single location than the Wolfhound is.

[massey]

The Wolfhound is marginally superior.  Armor-wise, they're virtually equal.  They've each got 3 medium lasers that'll do the majority of their work.  The Hermes has 2 machine guns and a flamer, while the Wolfhound gets an arm-mounted large laser and a rear-facing medium laser.  The Hermes gets an extra point of speed.

In a one-on-one matchup, how is this likely to play out?  At decent ranges the Wolfhound can fire its large laser and run without building heat.  The Wolfhound will try to keep range as long as possible, which is going to depend heavily on initiative rolls and terrain.  The Hermes can close, but the Wolfhound has enough movement that it'll make the Hermes work for it.  The Hermes has an advantage at point blank range, but that makes him really vulnerable the next round if the Wolfhound wins initiative.  Getting close enough to reliably open up with machine guns and flamers means that he's potentially exposing his rear.  The Hermes will always be in a firing arc where the Wolfhound can shoot something, but it won't always be able to shoot back.

I give it to the Wolfhound, because the Hermes only has a firepower advantage at ranges 1-3, while the Wolfie has the advantage at 4+.  Yeah he'll build heat, but the Wolfhound player isn't required to be an idiot.  A smart player will look for situations in which he won't need full movement next round.

Ultimately the Wolfhound has more options.  It's got a better arc of fire and longer ranged weaponry.  It gives up a bit of speed, but it's still fairly fast.  Truthfully, most of the time the winner will be determined by how damage groups up, which I think still favors the Wolfhound.  If you concentrate damage on the left side, the more likely you are to hit that machine gun ammo.  If you concentrate it on the right side, you take out virtually all the Hermes' weapons.  The Wolfhound is a little more spread out.

[Daryk]

Honestly, I think the match up will come down to terrain and who wins initiative more often, so I voted for a toss up.  A Jenner at least has the advantage of jump jets (meaning terrain matters less), so the choice is a bit easier in that case.

[GreekFire]

Wolfhound for sure.

Neither unit should be able to reliably backstab because the speed different isn't great enough. And every turn the Wolfhound wins initiative, it can aim for the 4-5 hex sweet spot to gain a pretty significant advantage in to-hit numbers and firepower.

Like Liam's Ghost and massey said, crit distribution on the Hermes II also plays a major role. If the left torso goes, the ammo explosion could end things then and there. If the right torso goes, the Hermes II loses all of its weapons...ending things there.

If you play with quirks, things get even worse. I'd give the Wolfhound a strictly superior advantage.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

I feel like there's a lot of faith being put in the superior firepower of a mech with only ten heatsinks.

Mixing the large laser with any number of mediums is straining your heatsinks at least to a degree. Combining it with enough mediums to outshoot the Hermes II means accepting penalties each time you do it. Which means you can only outshoot him occassionally, at which point you have to surrender firepower advantage to a more mobile opponent while you cool off, or you're hoping his armor runs out before your heat capacity.

If the Hermes II was a smaller or thinner armored design, I could see that working. But it isn't.

Its a combination of factors.  Where the TN are equal, the Wolfhound can match the Hermes II in terms of medium lasers.  But the Large Laser offers several advantages in certain areas

• Range.  The Wolfhound will be able to shoot first, when the Hermes will simply be out of range to reply.
• To Hit Numbers.  Due to the range band, the large laser will be firing at medium range when the medium lasers are just reaching their long range.  This gives a base HN of 6 for the large laser, plus movement and terrain mods, vs 8 for a medium.
• Damage Concentration.  That 8 point wack can take just over half the armor on the legs and side torso, not quite half on the center torso, and two-thirds of the armor off an arm.  That means it is far more vulnerable to any follow up hits, even from medium lasers.

The first two points combine with the third.  The most likely scenarios are the Wolfhounds delaying a close range engagement as best they can, seeking to soften up the Hermeses till they get to at least six hexes out.  Basically the medium lasers on the Wolfhounds are going to have high enough target numbers to make the large a better bet, and the Hermeses not able to do much beyond blind luck till they manage to get that close.  It is losing so much on the run in that tips the scales for me, between 6 and 2 hexes, the firepower is a net wash.

4 base gunnery, probably a net 4 firer and target movement mods?  That is 10 for a medium range shot, 12 for a long.  And medium range for a large laser starts at 10 hexes.  5 for short, where it'd be 8 against 10.

Not enough to stop a Hermes determined to close, but enough for a few large laser hits to make some worringly thin armor on some areas of the Hermes.

[ANS Kamas P81]

One thing to consider for the kiting scenario, the WLF can use its full movement.  Running away from the HER is possible because it's got that gun in the right arm; torso twist to bring the laser into arc and it can indeed blast away.  Range 10 will be the sweet spot, medium range on the LL and not being in ML range for the HER is its best bet.

THAT SAID

Gunner skill 4, +2 for running, +2 for medium range, +3 for likely target movement, you see the problem.  Granted, I'd rather have 11+ instead of out of range, but if the WLF wants to hit anything with that LL it's going to need to stand to and cede a lot of movement to the HER.  Granted it can run away and blast with the LL for no heat buildup, but the point stands - and it's equal for the HER as well; the only good option is the short-range range bracket - and that's still 4 +2 (likely) for running, +3 for the WLF movement; that means the thing's got to get to range 3 to really count.

The WLF does get one more advantage that might pay off better, it's shooting at likely 9s with the LL once the HER gets to range 5, with an 11+ for incoming fire, and it gets the same thing at range 4 as well before everything comes to short range.

Idly, people say ranges are short because of playability, but I'd argue they're TOO short with the amount of modifiers and skill base we get...when you can barely hit things outside your movement distance, yeah.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

I don't see kiting as an indefinite thing, but more a way to get in a few hits before it merges to a knife fight.  Basically two or three hits, not even on the same section, would leave the Hermes vulnerable when serious medium laser slinging is in play.

[Force of Nature]

Marginal advantage to the Wolfhound- the added punch of the large laser and the lack of exploding parts beats the Hermes II's slightly better speed.

I voted marginal and completely agree for the same reasons.

[Kovax]

The WLF has a range advantage with the LL and better firing arcs; the HER has a minor HS advantage (11 vs 10), better speed (7/11 vs 6/9), the MGs for a couple of extra no-heat points of damage, and an extra point of kick damage.  I see this as a tough battle any way you look at it, but I believe that the WLF is going to be heat-constrained.  If it overheats, it drops down to a 5/8, and risks either backstabs or mediocre movement modifiers to protect its back on the following turn.  The HER, in contrast, only drops down to the same speed as the WLF.  Terrain might be a significant factor, but luck in initiatives and shot placement (MG ammo in particular) will decide this as much as the capabilities of one or the other.  I think the HER will win out more often than not, but it'll be a close call, and neither is likely to walk (or limp) away in any shape for another engagement.

[Paul]

Start with 0 MG ammo and the Hermes is notably superior. Its only weakness is that too much is in the same spot. Still you take the RT off a wolfhound and theres not a lot of fight left.

Those who vote the wolfhound as significantly superior are just wrong though.

[Getz]

I would like to observe that the Hermes' speed advantage is more significant that it first appears - the 7/11 movement curve allows it to walk for 3+ and run for 4+.  How important that proves to be would depend on how open the terrain is, but it's certainly more that "just" one more movement point.

Having said that, I'd give it marginally to the Wolfhound.  The Hermes' unfortunate critical placement is too likely to blow up in it's face (potentially literally).

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Start with 0 MG ammo and the Hermes is notably superior. Its only weakness is that too much is in the same spot. Still you take the RT off a wolfhound and theres not a lot of fight left.

Some fight is still a lot more than no fight, which is what the Hermes gets left with after the same damage.

[Paul]

I guess a 11mp charge is nothing...
Between the ease with which the Hermes can dictate range and routinely have a 1 higher defensive movement modifier than the Wolf, and it has more armor, so the advantage is definitely with the Hermes.

[Daryk]

Even with those factors, I think initiative and terrain will count for more.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

In single combat,  straight line runs are hard to pull off regularly. The Hermes's extra movement point is likely to see more use for facing charges. That's still going to result in batter movement modifiers, but most of the time the Hermes will have +3, not +4.

Also,  charge attacks are completely dependent on winning initiative and if it's already missing a side torso odds are that the rest of its armor isn't in great shape either.  The armor difference between the two mechs is small.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

The armor difference between the two mechs is small.

Both carry 7.5 tons, with the Wolfhound having one less point overall due to the smaller structure.  That extra point on the Hermes goes onto the center torso, while the legs and arms are thinned up slightly (1 from each arm, two from each leg) to throw three points more onto the side torso.

[Arkansas Warrior]

If I was going to drive one, I’d pick the Wolfhound every time.  The MGs are basically a self-destruct device waiting to happen, and all the rest of the guns are clustered on one side, where a lucky clustering could take them all out at once.  On the other hand, the Wolfhound has a range advantage and the big stick of the large laser.  A few lucky hits to the right torso would still leave the WLF with three mediums (one rear-facing, to be fair).  I don’t see much difference in their heat worries; the WLF can fire the Large and run or the front MLs and walk for no heat.  The Hermes can fire its three MLs and walk for no heat.  It’s mostly just lacking the option of a long-ranged, high damage weapon.   The Hermes-2M isn’t a bad ride.  It’s perfectly serviceable as a scout hunter.  But I wouldn’t want to take a Wolfhound on in one.

[Syzyx]

So a buddy of mine and I played this out yesterday. Two standard BattleTech maps, 4/5 pilots. No fancy rules.

The Hermes II won 8 of 10 games. Turns out that in most cases the LL is not very useful in this matchup as 9+ target numbers were the norm and the number of shots mattered way more than the damage done by each shot. Furthermore, the extra 2 movement made a huge difference in positioning and left the Wolfhound about half the time firing only the rear ML. On the rounds the Hermes lost initiative those extra MP kept the Wolfhound from being able to exploit the Hermes blind spot.

[Daryk]

What terrain did you use?  Who won initiative more often?

[Paul]

You guys do know you could spend turn 1 at a walk, dump MG ammo? Or just start at 0.

All of you seem hyper focussed on it as the deciding factor.