Customizing an Omni past podspace

[General308]

I am not  saying it couldn't be done but it  would cost more likely cost  $100s of million  cbills more than you thing.  It would be a complete reengenering  job  and a factory retooling job to produce it.     

Closes example I can thing of to what  you want to do is the Shiva omni fighter.   To make the stealth version it lost the omni capability so I think you are looking at something that is astronomicly expensive and is likely to give you a failed result even with all the spent cash.   


Oh and lets not forget the years of time it would take to do said enginerering job.   Then years for them to find a opening in the factory production schedule to retool.    The more I think about it the more problems I see.  I think you would be better off looking for a different design.

[skiltao]

Stealth armor requires a certain outward geometry for the unit's silhouette, so I can see extra difficulties specific to stealth armor; but I believe the general points about cost and re-engineering were addressed earlier in the thread.

Edit: to wit:
 - the omni gyros and T&T and whatever else don't know if the added weapon is modular or not, they wouldn't suddenly lose their ability to accommodate new equipment; and why would permanently attaching (for instance) a medium laser be suddenly harder than making the same weapon modular and removable?
 - omnis only have a price markup of +25%, so any change you make won't be all that more expensive or difficult than doing the same thing to a standard 'Mech.
/Edit

[SteveRestless]

"Possible But Highly Difficult" means that such modifications won't be commonplace. And ideally the difficulty would be on a sliding scale.

Something akin to swapping an Avatar's Fixed Medium Laser for a Fixed Clan ER Medium Laser?  A Little Harder than the same swap on a non-omni, because of the sophistication of the Omnimech's design. Perhaps the sort of thing that would still succeed within a certain margin of failure, but come with an appropriate negative quirk, I.e. the laser is swapped, but gets "poor cooling jacket" because the design wasn't expecting a hotter laser.

Something that still ought to be achievable but should be tougher, would be swapping a fixed component like an Adder's Flamer, for a component of a different nature like a  Light Active Probe, or light TAG.

And then at the other end of things, it should be hard to do, on the order of requiring a factory to perform, but  some major change, like swapping out the naga's fixed arrow launchers for pod space, allowing it to become a psuedo-longbow as an alternative. or installing a Chameleon LPS on a Phantom. It's not original equipment, but it can be added without impinging on the original design and original configs, and matches pretty close to a system described in the earliest fluff about the Phantom.

I think it'd be too cheap to just say "yeah, goahead, customize anything you want" but I think that about standard battlemechs too. and I think it's silly and lazy to just go "they're completely immutable, any change deomnifies them" or else how would you ever even repair one?

[skiltao]

Edit: If your intent is just to make custom omnis rarer and more special than customized standard 'Mechs, well, I think that's already inherent to the system - they're rarer than standard 'Mechs, customization is already risky, and their higher value makes that risk harder to take. /Edit

A Little Harder than the same swap on a non-omni, because of the sophistication of the Omnimech's design.

If we're talking about a situation like the Prometheus frankenmech, where its creators weren't proficient with omni technology, then I would agree; but that hurdle should exist with any unfamiliar technology, and not be specific to omnitech.

An omni's "sophistication" has the sole and express function of making modification easier. What goal do you mean to reach by saddling them with extra penalties?

Something that still ought to be achievable but should be tougher, would be swapping a fixed component like an Adder's Flamer, for a component of a different nature like a  Light Active Probe, or light TAG.
<snip>
major change, like swapping out the naga's fixed arrow launchers for pod space, allowing it to become a psuedo-longbow as an alternative. or installing a Chameleon LPS on a Phantom.

Again, difficulties which would apply to standard BattleMechs as well. Is that your intent, to apply them equally to standard BattleMechs as well as OmniMechs?

[SteveRestless]

If we're talking about a situation like the Prometheus frankenmech, where its creators weren't proficient with omni technology, then I would agree; but that hurdle should exist with any unfamiliar technology, and not be specific to omnitech.

An omni's "sophistication" has the sole and express function of making modification easier. What goal do you mean to reach by saddling them with extra penalties?

Again, difficulties which would apply to standard BattleMechs as well. Is that your intent, to apply them equally to standard BattleMechs as well as OmniMechs?

Let's take my Desktop Computer's modular case. It's designed for near tool-less assembly, all you really need is a screwdriver to secure the motherboard and you're golden. So long as you're changing something that was intended to be changed, swapping drives, expansion cards, adding fans where they provided spots for fans, you don't even need to touch tools.  But if I wanted to put say, two mATX motherboards in, instead of one ATX motherboard in there, I'd have to get out my dremel and get creative, hardmodding the case in ways that the creator never really anticipated. is it still going to be a nice case to work inside of, easy to change all the bits that were intended to change? Absolutely. But, I might run into difficulty with aspects they never anticipated, like some cuckoo bird trying to fit two motherboards into the one case. and depending on what I do, I might reduce some of it's modularity, particularly if I infringe on where something else is intended to be placed.

the goal I "mean to reach" with the extra penalties is a compromise between the hard line TPTB have taken saying "it's impossible, doesn't matter if it makes sense or not, it's impossible" and the anarchy of "everything is completely malleable" partly because I think people are more likely to accept it if there's some difficulty involved, and partly because it's satisfying to overcome those challenges.

Let me try and quantify how I envision this numerically.

Difficulty Grade 0: Reloading a Standard Battlemech's Ammo Bins, Changing Pod Configurations on an Omnimech

Difficulty Grade 1: Permanently hard-mounting something into what used to be pod space (harder because you have to take steps to prevent its removal) on an Omnimech

Difficulty Grade 3: Replacing a Fixed Medium Laser with an ER Medium Laser on a Standard Battlemech

Difficulty Grade 4: Replacing a Fixed Medium Laser with an ER Medium Laser on an Omnimech because there's a large network of cooling, control and structural elements that need to be minded in the process

Difficulty Grade 9: Tearing Down 50% of a mech's structure to remove fixed weapons and lay down the infrastructure, a network of data and power connections, coolant ports, ammo feed pathways, modular structural elements to allow the plug-and-play to allow custom pod configurations in its place, like in the naga example.

[skiltao]

the goal I "mean to reach" with the extra penalties is a compromise between the hard line TPTB have taken saying "it's impossible, doesn't matter if it makes sense or not, it's impossible" and the anarchy of "everything is completely malleable" partly because I think people are more likely to accept it if there's some difficulty involved, and partly because it's satisfying to overcome those challenges.

Thank you. However, that's not TPTB's position; the "anarchy" of complete malleability is a strawman; it's my experience that arbitrary penalties tend to reduce interest rather than increase acceptance; and if you found both positions unworthy, why not find worthier criteria to start from?

Difficulty Grade 3: Replacing a Fixed Medium Laser with an ER Medium Laser on a Standard Battlemech

Difficulty Grade 4: Replacing a Fixed Medium Laser with an ER Medium Laser on an Omnimech because there's a large network of cooling, control and structural elements that need to be minded in the process

I (and I believe your computer analogy) maintain that the network of cooling, control and other elements are easier to mind in the modular system than the non-modular system.

I agree that unanticipated difficulties may arise - that's what the die roll is for; and I agree that some modularity may be lost - that's what the "partial success" mechanic is for.

[SteveRestless]

Thank you. However, that's not TPTB's position

The post, your own post, that you link to asserts that the limitation doesn't come out of nowhere... but it never explains where it DOES come from. Until the rationale can be provided, it's functionally indistinguishable from arbitrary.

the "anarchy" of complete malleability is a strawman;

I dispute this. Take for example, Mechwarrior Online. There is zero bar-to-entry in customizing your Battlemechs in MWO. You only need to be able to afford the parts, and you can freely swap anything that fits in the available slots. Things that it ought to take technicians hours, days, even weeks, and loads of c-bills to pay them in that time, are accomplished instantaneously and free. This suits the game just fine, since nobody wants to wait a week to get their mech customized.

BUT, at the same time, they hold the Omnimechs to a higher standard than they do the Battlemechs, limiting what can be customized on them, things that ought to be a lengthy rebuild on a battlemech, but get shrugged off for the sake of convenience, remain forbidden on Omnimechs. And if there aren't any checks on what can be customized on a battlemech, and you don't care about carrying battle armor, then why care about Omnimechs at all?

and if you found both positions unworthy, why not find worthier criteria to start from?

Because I do not get to choose my starting position from a pristine vacuum. I start from the scenario presented by the world around me, caught between players I have who see nothing wrong with overhauling a static battlemech like it was built of lego bricks, and rulings from above like "Customizing an Omnimech's base Chassis makes it no longer an omnimech." Both of these exist independent of me, neither were chosen by me, I'm just playing the hand I was dealt.

I (and I believe your computer analogy) maintain that the network of cooling, control and other elements are easier to mind in the modular system than the non-modular system.

Regarding fixed equipment though, certain assumptions are likely to be made. If there's hard-mounted equipment in a location, that will never be touched, it might be safely presumed that they do not have to take the same steps as they do in the modular parts of the mech. The power cables might only be sufficient to feed a medium laser, because they never have to expect it being more than a medium laser there. 

[massey]

Ultimately this only matters in a Mechwarrior-style game, something with a GM and some kind of campaign structure.  That's because designing an Omnimech is easy in standard Battletech.  You just declare it to be an Omnimech.  Want to swap out those 2 hardwired medium lasers on the Avatar?  Just say "hey guys, this is my new mech, the... umm... Bavatar.  Yeah, that's it.  Bavatar."  And then have the mediums replaced with whatever you want.

So now we're really into the realm of roleplaying and story concerns, which is going to be dependent on the needs of your individual groups.  Like with many of the standard Battletech rules, I personally take the position that the Omni rules are only a generalization and that in-universe you can't actually customize them as much as the rules allow in the game.  You can't actually put an ER PPC in a Daishi's foot, despite the fact that it has enough crit spaces in the right leg.  You might be able to put a weapon like that on its hip (and thus in the leg slot), but the mech designers wouldn't have bothered running the necessary power cables and such down all the way to the foot, just on the off chance that somebody wanted to be weird.

I will proudly admit that these are my own biases, based on what I think looks cool (and what would look stupid) and the best story justifications I can come up with, and have nothing to do with the rules as written.  But again, rules as written "designing an omnimech" is something you can do with a notepad and a pen, not a team of engineers and a supercomputer.  It does, however, sort of fit the background info.  After all, the Avatar shouldn't have had any problems requiring hard-wiring in two medium lasers -- that's a restriction without any rules support.

Now I'm not really interested in micro-managing what somebody does with their mech.  Major changes to the structure of the mech (going to endo-steel, adding ferro-fibrous armor, swapping out for a larger engine and gyro) would probably be a major overhaul and might screw up the arrangement of parts inside and so would potentially undo your omni-ness.

[skiltao]

@Massey: agreed, and that's all equally true for standard 'Mechs as well.

The post, your own post, that you link to asserts that the limitation doesn't come out of nowhere... but it never explains where it DOES come from. Until the rationale can be provided, it's functionally indistinguishable from arbitrary.

That post summarizes earlier discussion. TPTB's rationale is mentioned in two of the links Empyrus provided, and I apologize for assuming you had already seen them.

if there aren't any checks on what can be customized on a battlemech, and you don't care about carrying battle armor, then why care about Omnimechs at all?

The existing customization rules already have checks on customization, and OmniMechs are already distinct and desirable under this existing system. How do the flaws of a completely different customization costing system - flaws which do not exist in the existing BattleTech customization ruleset - justify making Omnis harder to modify here?

Because I do not get to choose my starting position from a pristine vacuum. I start from the scenario presented by the world around me, caught between players I have who see nothing wrong with overhauling a static battlemech like it was built of lego bricks, and rulings from above like "Customizing an Omnimech's base Chassis makes it no longer an omnimech." Both of these exist independent of me, neither were chosen by me, I'm just playing the hand I was dealt.

Since your players aren't using the published customization rules, they obviously aren't forcing you to accept the Q&A ruling. If the Q&A ruling turned out to be baseless, would you still accept it as a "correct" starting point?

Is your intent to flesh out the published rules by adding more finely-grained difficulty grades, or to replace the published rules with something more palatable to lego-minded players? If the former, I don't see the relevance of your lego-minded players; if the latter, that's quite different from all the surrounding discussion, and would've been very helpful to mention up front.

Regarding fixed equipment though, certain assumptions are likely to be made. If there's hard-mounted equipment in a location, that will never be touched, it might be safely presumed that they do not have to take the same steps as they do in the modular parts of the mech. The power cables might only be sufficient to feed a medium laser, because they never have to expect it being more than a medium laser there.

Which is no different than on a standard 'Mech.

[marcussmythe]

I have a mental image of some hypothetical Omni, with two huge bays Arrow IV bays in ita chest, and a Medium Laser in its left foot.

Due to a mistake somewhere on the repair bay floor, an ER Medium Laser is accidentally installed in that left foot in place of the damaged Medium Laser.

A resounding crack of lightning is heard throughout the bay as the Arrow IVs are suddenly flash-welded into place, and the smell of smoke rises from the now-former-Omnimech, as a senior tech shakes his head in long suffering experience.

[massey]

I have a mental image of some hypothetical Omni, with two huge bays Arrow IV bays in ita chest, and a Medium Laser in its left foot.

Due to a mistake somewhere on the repair bay floor, an ER Medium Laser is accidentally installed in that left foot in place of the damaged Medium Laser.

A resounding crack of lightning is heard throughout the bay as the Arrow IVs are suddenly flash-welded into place, and the smell of smoke rises from the now-former-Omnimech, as a senior tech shakes his head in long suffering experience.

That's what happens when you fail your technician roll. :)

[Colt Ward]

Feed back from the power system flash welding parts together?

[Maingunnery]

I (and I believe your computer analogy) maintain that the network of cooling, control and other elements are easier to mind in the modular system than the non-modular system.

I think that any fixed equipment will fit in snug in any Omnimech, just to maximize the internal volume for pods. And in-universe I can imagine that equipment of the same ton/crit will actually have a different shape and connectors. Then changing any fixed equipment will become a cascading problem, as the extra changes necessary to fit the new equipment, will also trigger more changes....

[massey]

I think that any fixed equipment will fit in snug in any Omnimech, just to maximize the internal volume for pods. And in-universe I can imagine that equipment of the same ton/crit will actually have a different shape and connectors. Then changing any fixed equipment will become a cascading problem, as the extra changes necessary to fit the new equipment, will also trigger more changes....

If you wanted to look at Omnis "realistically", the Clans probably had a very limited number of designs for their standard equipment.

In the Inner Sphere, what we call a "medium laser" probably includes hundreds of different weapon systems.  A Martell medium laser is probably quite different from a Magna II, which is itself a different weapon system than an Aberdovey Mk III (from the Spider), or a Hellion V (on the Hermes).  There aren't just different manufacturers, the weapons themselves are going to be different. 

Suppose that (making stuff up now) a Martel medium has a barrel measuring 4 feet long, and is ringed by a series of heavy capacitors that allow it to discharge a powerful burst lasting 0.27 seconds.  The design is sturdy and reliable, and while it's a bit heavy (weighing 1.12 tons), it doesn't require much in the way of maintenance and so it can be placed in hard-to-access locations.  On the other hand, a Diverse Optics Type 2 laser has a barrel almost 9 feet long, and generates significantly more heat than the Martel design.  It is however lighter, weighing only 0.8 tons.  This has led to mounting it as a hand-held weapon in designs like the Wasp, where the excess heat is usually released into the air and so does not require additional heat sinks.  It doesn't release the same powerful bolt that the Martell does, instead relying on a long stream of energy that lasts for more than a second and a half, and can be "walked" across the target.  The entire internal layout of the lasers is different, the only similarities really being a (very rough) approximation in their size and the role they are used for.

Now, I just made all that up, but there is fluff to support the idea that what we see as a single weapon in Battletech is really an entire class of equipment that tends to fall into the same basic category.  It all gets rounded off and clumped together for ease of play.  Inner Sphere techs are masters at cobbling things together and making square pegs fit into round holes.

But with the Clans, it's different.  In the Golden Century, they developed new technologies and then promptly stole the designs from each other.  They're literally following the same original blueprints that everybody else is following.  A Clan ER medium laser is the exact same, no matter where in Clan space it was built.  This commonality of parts led to the innovation of Omni designs -- the parts are totally interchangeable, and one pod design fits in with every other pod design.  This is why most Invasion era omnis look so similar to one another.  It's also, I think, a better explanation for why the Clans had difficulty manufacturing Omnimechs after the Invasion.  They scooped up a lot of Inner Sphere factories when they invaded, and retrofitting them to produce perfect copies of Clan tech was easier said than done.  They followed the same principles, and were able to soup up the local factories to produce general approximations of Clan weapons, but they didn't have the same measurements and didn't work exactly the same way.  It suddenly got a lot harder when PPCs didn't fit into the normal slot anymore.

[skiltao]

I think that any fixed equipment will fit in snug in any Omnimech, <snip> And in-universe I can imagine that equipment of the same ton/crit will actually have a different shape and connectors. Then changing any fixed equipment will become a cascading problem, as the extra changes necessary to fit the new equipment, will also trigger more changes....

All of which is equally true for standard BattleMechs. Edit: or more true for standard 'Mechs, for the reasons Massey gave. /Edit

just to maximize the internal volume for pods

If anything, you have that backwards. OmniMechs don't need the internal volume as much because they can add big external pods whenever necessary - the missiles on the Vulture and Mad Cat being the most obvious examples.

[Col Toda]

Omni tech is a reflection of Clan Society . Each configuration is supposedly an optimization for a particular combat as reflected by the terms of the Batchal . This even though the initial outlay of resources is higher between missions it hopefully gets reconfigured to handle the conditions vin a particular field of battle . The IS builds an Omni mech to fine tune its use in a particular role on the field of battle. So for me outside a Scouting lance or fire support lance non Omni mechs rule . Eliminating the Omni part to make a better fighting machine is great but sub optimal expense wise and a declaration thatvthe original designer made large fundemental flaws in the design .

[JadeHellbringer]

If you wanted to look at Omnis "realistically", the Clans probably had a very limited number of designs for their standard equipment.

In the Inner Sphere, what we call a "medium laser" probably includes hundreds of different weapon systems.  A Martell medium laser is probably quite different from a Magna II, which is itself a different weapon system than an Aberdovey Mk III (from the Spider), or a Hellion V (on the Hermes).  There aren't just different manufacturers, the weapons themselves are going to be different. 

Suppose that (making stuff up now) a Martel medium has a barrel measuring 4 feet long, and is ringed by a series of heavy capacitors that allow it to discharge a powerful burst lasting 0.27 seconds.  The design is sturdy and reliable, and while it's a bit heavy (weighing 1.12 tons), it doesn't require much in the way of maintenance and so it can be placed in hard-to-access locations.  On the other hand, a Diverse Optics Type 2 laser has a barrel almost 9 feet long, and generates significantly more heat than the Martel design.  It is however lighter, weighing only 0.8 tons.  This has led to mounting it as a hand-held weapon in designs like the Wasp, where the excess heat is usually released into the air and so does not require additional heat sinks.  It doesn't release the same powerful bolt that the Martell does, instead relying on a long stream of energy that lasts for more than a second and a half, and can be "walked" across the target.  The entire internal layout of the lasers is different, the only similarities really being a (very rough) approximation in their size and the role they are used for.

Now, I just made all that up, but there is fluff to support the idea that what we see as a single weapon in Battletech is really an entire class of equipment that tends to fall into the same basic category.  It all gets rounded off and clumped together for ease of play.  Inner Sphere techs are masters at cobbling things together and making square pegs fit into round holes.

But with the Clans, it's different.  In the Golden Century, they developed new technologies and then promptly stole the designs from each other.  They're literally following the same original blueprints that everybody else is following.  A Clan ER medium laser is the exact same, no matter where in Clan space it was built.  This commonality of parts led to the innovation of Omni designs -- the parts are totally interchangeable, and one pod design fits in with every other pod design.  This is why most Invasion era omnis look so similar to one another.  It's also, I think, a better explanation for why the Clans had difficulty manufacturing Omnimechs after the Invasion.  They scooped up a lot of Inner Sphere factories when they invaded, and retrofitting them to produce perfect copies of Clan tech was easier said than done.  They followed the same principles, and were able to soup up the local factories to produce general approximations of Clan weapons, but they didn't have the same measurements and didn't work exactly the same way.  It suddenly got a lot harder when PPCs didn't fit into the normal slot anymore.

To follow your example, it also would explain the wildly-different sizes and shapes for assorted energy AND ballistic systems- no reason a Kali Yama AC/20 and a Defiance AC/20 wouldn't have assorted differences as well. (Which brings about the old 'interchangeable ammo' argument, but sometimes it really is best to just relax and enjoy the game.)

[guardiandashi]

its a totally non canon example, but when I ran a "house" one of the things they did to simplify their logistics was to standardize their autocannon ammo. in that game, the "house" essentially only made 100mm autocannon rounds, all of their standard autocannons "chambered" the standard rounds, the main difference was how many they loaded and fired and also the lengths of the barrels on the cannons. (note I have no idea how well this would work in practice)

but the way I looked at it was...  the class 2 autocannon fired basically 2 rounds that each did ~1 point of damage.  an ac 5 would fire a 5 round burst, but its barrel and fire control weren't quite as good as the ac2 that's why the range was shorter, an ac10 fires ~10 rounds, and a 20 fired 20 rounds in close to the same amount of time.

[Maingunnery]

All of which is equally true for standard BattleMechs. Edit: or more true for standard 'Mechs, for the reasons Massey gave. /Edit

With Battlemechs it is normally expected that there should be some room for customization, with fixed equipment in Omnimechs the engineers get a free pass to make it as snug as possible.
The abstraction of "weapon brands" and standardization by the Clans actually helps my case. As this makes mounting fixed equipment very tightly a non-issue.

If anything, you have that backwards. OmniMechs don't need the internal volume as much because they can add big external pods whenever necessary - the missiles on the Vulture and Mad Cat being the most obvious examples.

Some Battlemechs also add external pods and many Omnimechs also mount big weapons internally, thus bad example.
Also the Vulture is especially anorexic, a true tribute to getting fixed equipment as snug as possible, its engineering solutions even ended up fixing the Bushwacker.   

[skiltao]

With Battlemechs it is normally expected that there should be some room for customization

I disagree. The customization rules do not assume any "free space" when you're trying to install an item that's bigger than the item it replaces, and TRO fluff has always described that kind of extra room as unusual (there may even be a Quirk for it, I forget).

The abstraction of "weapon brands" and standardization by the Clans actually helps my case. As this makes mounting fixed equipment very tightly a non-issue.

<snip> many Omnimechs also mount big weapons internally, thus bad example.
Also the Vulture is especially anorexic, a true tribute to getting fixed equipment as snug as possible, its engineering solutions even ended up fixing the Bushwacker.

Why is streamlined equipment harder to remove and replace than esoteric jigsaw-tetris equipment? The jigsaw-tetris equipment gets packed exactly as tightly. That's why the Vulture is "anorexic" - it's internal components are all arranged so that they're accessible without having to dig through a bunch of intervening jigsaw-tetris pieces.

Can you give an example of big internal torso pods? (We can discount arms because they can be detached and replaced with giant gunpods when necessary.) Edit 2: and when you find that example, can you explain how the existence of big internal cavities in an OmniMech is proof against their ability to accommodate big equipment changes? /Edit 2

(Which brings about the old 'interchangeable ammo' argument, but sometimes it really is best to just relax and enjoy the game.)

Extra fluffiness should only impact gameplay when it enhances the experience, sure, and sometimes it happens that the energy it takes a given person to engage in a given thought exercise outweighs whatever benefits that person accrues from the experience.

But you're advocating less fluffiness when the OP's context ask for more, and the decision to interchange or not interchange ammo has always been an informal one players resolve in whichever direction they expect to find most relaxing and enjoyable; asking people to accept the text without question is how we get rulings like the 'OmniSmoke' one, and rulings like that are what generates the exact questions and confusion the policy of "don't think too hard" is meant to avoid.

So although I mostly agree with your general sentiment, you have to admit, the way you framed it is deeply, deeply ironic.  ;D

[Edit: fixing smiley face - forgot this one doesn't have a hyphen for a nose. /Edit]

[Maingunnery]

I disagree. The customization rules do not assume any "free space" when you're trying to install an item that's bigger than the item it replaces, and TRO fluff has always described that kind of extra room as unusual (there may even be a Quirk for it, I forget).

You might be thinking of Easy to Maintain, this concerns a lot of designs that are extremely roomy or well designed, as in that the technicians can reach everything easily. But there is also the counterpart Difficult to Maintain, which can be applied to 'Mechs with little internal margins. Not to mention the quirk Non-Standard Parts, which would be a good fit for a Mech that can only accept brand specific parts.

Why is streamlined equipment harder to remove and replace than esoteric jigsaw-tetris equipment?

Fixed equipment aren't streamlined. A Clan engineer will know exactly how much space to give for a fixed piece of equipment and where to exactly put the connectors. They won't have to give any consideration for customization of that section, and all the motivation to give as much space to the omni-pods as possible.
While a traditional IS engineer designing a BattleMech will have to add some extra tolerance, just to fit all the various brands of a single weapon type, or risk creating a operational boondoggle.

Can you give an example of big internal torso pods? (We can discount arms because they can be detached and replaced with giant gunpods when necessary.)

The UAC20 that is mostly in the torso and not on top: https://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/gallery/omni-images/DaishiWidowmakerLeft.png?x64300

[Colt Ward]

Kingfisher config also has a UAC/20 in the torso.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There are three Kingfisher configurations that mount autocannons, all of which are in the arms.  The Loki C, however, does mount an LB-20X in the torso.

[Sid]

The omnismoke ruling does stem from a real world rationalization. A half-remembered and possibly mistaken one perhaps, but a real world rationalization nonetheless. It does not exist merely "because the rules say so" (and indeed, no published rule actually supports it). Discussing the rationalization behind the rule is relevant and useful in the context of a practical question posed by the OP - please do not ever come into a thread like this and advise people to turn their brains off.

If the rest of what you said is an argument you really want to make, I am willing to address it point by point, but as it's not topical to this discussion I ask you open a new thread for it.

I had thought the rationalization was balance.  This rule, after all, only affects campaigns.  You can create any custom 'mech you wish, no matter how ridiculous (I recall the existance of a "Quad Urbie LAM" kitbash for example).  The only time the benefits of an Omnimech comes up is when you're repairing 'mechs between linked games and need to track the time and what you have available in inventory for repairs and switching loadouts.

I may be mistaken, but from what I remember, to mount a weapon on an Omnimech requires it to be in an 'Omnipod' which is proprietary to the weapon.  If you salvage a LRM10 and have to decide if it goes on your Avatar or your Atlas will depend on whether the LRM10 came in an Omnipod.  If it did, you can spend half an hour installing it into your Avatar or remove it from the pod and spend a few hours to put it into your Atlas and risk penalties to your gunnery or piloting if your tech screws the job up.   Clearly the Omni has a benefit here.

If it doesn't have an Omnipod is where things get problematic.  As far as I know, you can't take the Omnipod off a Machinegun and slap it onto the LRM10, which means you're going to have to hard mount the LRM10 onto the Avatar as fixed equipment.  The time is the exact same as it is to do it on the Atlas, with the same risks of penalties.  If there is no drawback to doing this to the Avatar, then as I think TPTB said, what's the point of non-Omnis?

I'm not sure if the ruling was really well thought out though.  Let's say I don't have an Atlas- just the Avatar.  Let's further say that the Avatar took significant damage- it lost it's right torso in the last deployment, and we're doing a repair job.  We fixed the XL engine, repaired the torso, managed to save the Artemis IV (with Omnipod!) and re-attached the severed arm.  Regrettably, the LRM10 died and has to be replaced- no Omnipod for the LRM10 we have on hand though.

Okay.  Fine.   We let the 'smoke out' or whatever and we'll hard mount the LRM10 as fixed equipment, sans pod, with the associated penalties and this Avatar is now permanently a standard Battlemech.  Opfor is inbound and it's better to have a fully functional Battlemech than a mostly intact Omnimech right?

Here's one issue I have:  Battlemechs can't take Omnipods.  The other LRM10, the LBx10, the machine guns and medium lasers and the Artemis IVs no longer work.  The tech will have to pop them out of the Avatar, remove them from the Omnipods and then put  them as fixed equipment.

 
Why?

Especially, as in the Avatar's fluff comes across as the developers didn't have to do all that during testing.  It says that the medium lasers were faulty during testing so they "hardwired" them into the chasis and then switching them back into Omnipods got lost in the paperwork after they had the issue with medium lasers sorted out.  It doesn't sound like the prototype reverted to a standard Battlemech, permanently, and they had to redesign the whole prototype around the medium lasers being fixed equipment.  To me, anyway, it sounds like the medium lasers didn't work so they hardwired them, then had a working prototype (with the 'smoke' still in it) and swapped configs just fine...and then sent the specs off for production before realizing they forgot to say "switch the medium lasers back to omnipods".

In a world where refits exist to upgrade 3025 'mechs with endosteel and XL engines were meant to be done in fully equipped 'mech bays... any re calibrations that the Avatar designers did should be possible. 

In my opinion anyway.

Furthermore, while I understand the intent that Omni technology is a "flexible weapon" but also "fragile", this technology lets me put whatever I want onto that Avatar chassis so long as there's room.  Not only do we have some really big, significant changes between canon configurations (Mad Dog Prime to Mad Dog C for example) but they'll take anything so long as its an Omni pod.  That LRM10 not in an omnipod? Fine, let's cram some Omnijumpjets in there instead-  who cares if they're all in one torso and we did it in an hour? That Avatar will fly anyway.  This doesn't even touch upon the utter trauma Omnimechs can sustain and continue to function:  Entire torsos can be removed by all sorts of abusive weapon fire, limbs can be forcibly removed in combat, blunt force impact of charging hovertanks, flooding of entire compartments with saltwater, explosive decompression in vaccums etc. etc.

And the Omnimech's omni components will keep working- even if the mechwarrior isn't.  Salvage an Omnimech that's missing its right half, and don't have a replacement leg? No problem, just pop whatever's left out and pop in an Omnipod Gauss Rifle and use it as an immobile turret to rain supersonic watermelons down upon the enemy from the bay door of your dropship.

But hardwiring an LRM10 in place of an Omnipod LRM10 renders the Omnitechnology...useless? For good, because it's not smart enough to accommodate for the reduction in pod space?  Replacing FF armour on your left arm with some standard armour because your back is against the wall will shut down your entire weapon load out and forever mean it can't take Omnipods because...why, exactly?

Personally, even without this ruling, I still wouldn't hardwire a LRM10 into the Avatar if I had other Omnipod weapons available because that's the whole point of having some Omnimechs- and the freed up time can be better spent working on my non-Omnimechs.

The logistical nightmare and scarcity of purchasing and salvaging Omnipod ammo bins and components is more than enough of a drawback to keep Battlemechs relevant for me, personally.  Why limit yourself to one or the other when you can have both?

EDIT:  Just to clarify as I realize I probably contradict myself by saying I can understand "what's the point of standard 'mechs?" only to conclude that the scarcity and logistics is enough to justify keeping regular Battlemechs around at the end.  In the 'future' (say 3250 or whatever), if everything is Omni technology then whatever you salvage can be simply popped right onto your 'mechs after the battle.  Omnis do render standard 'mechs obsolete in that sense- however, we have so much handwaved away already in Battletech, saying that the new technology in 3250 continues to favor standard Battlemechs over Omnimechs isn't a big obstacle in my mind.  I'm sure plenty of 'plausible' reasons could be used.

[Colt Ward]

Pretty well thought out train except those Omni-mounted weapons would still function on the mech- just by implication of the rule you could not remove them without causing Problems.  Additionally, the Omnipods are not sized afaik . . . its more about the universal adaptors/connectors for power, targeting and cooling as well as standardized mounting brackets.  IMO its something like the self-build CPUs where they have standardized brackets & rails so you can mount your hard drive between those rails, or if there is an opening to the outside you could mount your CD-ROM/DVD/BluRay drive, etc.

[guardiandashi]

as I understand the Omni-pods its at the same time really simple but complex.
for the components such as your lrm getting damaged in your omnimech If you have a spare lrm pod you pop the old (broken) missile pod out put it over in the corner with the rest of the broken parts, and swap in the working unit, and the Omni- mech is ready to go back into the field.

when you salvage a weapon that is podded you can either leave it podded, and immediately use it in an Omni or you can strip the pod off the weapon and mount it in a regular unit.

if you get in weapons that are not podded, you can either use them as is as non omni gear, or you can spend a little time and the resources to mount them in a pod, and then they immediately are useable as pod gear.

if you have damaged Omni parts you can spend "down time" restoring them to operational status and shift them back into your available spares.

the point is that the real advantage of Omni-units is that as long as you have spare equipment available you can both mix and match stuff to get things back online faster, and improvise loadouts based on pilot preference and available parts it also shortens the repair and refit cycle tremendously.

the whole "omnismoke" thing was IMO just another justification to explain why people still use non omnis, even though once they become available there really isn't a good reason to NOT phase out all the non omnis in favor of Omni units. when they are available.  I mean I totally get the whole why do we need all this new fangled ... the old whatever works just fine... resistance to change thing. but there is a reason all the clans were heavily Omni loaded in their front line units, its because they really are significantly better than standard units in most ways.  even with a limitation of modifying the base chassis being a bit of a pain in the butt.

[massey]

as I understand the Omni-pods its at the same time really simple but complex.
for the components such as your lrm getting damaged in your omnimech If you have a spare lrm pod you pop the old (broken) missile pod out put it over in the corner with the rest of the broken parts, and swap in the working unit, and the Omni- mech is ready to go back into the field.

when you salvage a weapon that is podded you can either leave it podded, and immediately use it in an Omni or you can strip the pod off the weapon and mount it in a regular unit.

if you get in weapons that are not podded, you can either use them as is as non omni gear, or you can spend a little time and the resources to mount them in a pod, and then they immediately are useable as pod gear.

if you have damaged Omni parts you can spend "down time" restoring them to operational status and shift them back into your available spares.

the point is that the real advantage of Omni-units is that as long as you have spare equipment available you can both mix and match stuff to get things back online faster, and improvise loadouts based on pilot preference and available parts it also shortens the repair and refit cycle tremendously.

the whole "omnismoke" thing was IMO just another justification to explain why people still use non omnis, even though once they become available there really isn't a good reason to NOT phase out all the non omnis in favor of Omni units. when they are available.  I mean I totally get the whole why do we need all this new fangled ... the old whatever works just fine... resistance to change thing. but there is a reason all the clans were heavily Omni loaded in their front line units, its because they really are significantly better than standard units in most ways.  even with a limitation of modifying the base chassis being a bit of a pain in the butt.

Yeah, I didn't buy the justifications given for not using Omnis.  Once they become available, everybody should start using them.  They make too much sense not to use them, even with the extra 25% price.  The faster repair times alone make it worth it, not to mention allowing one mech to fulfill the roles of multiple specialists.

The problem was, they didn't make economic sense in real life -- as I understand it, the best selling Battletech products are Technical Readouts with new mechs.  And once you've got a 75 ton mech with good armor and 5/8 movement, that can carry 50 different weapons combinations, how many more do you need?  Why bother reinventing the wheel?  So despite the huge advantages, nobody really makes use of Omnimechs anymore because reasons.

[Colt Ward]

Well, for the Clans- and now the IS with MMLs- some weapons make secondline mechs more useful.  It was my opinion that with the invention of the ATM we should have seen new versions of the old Clan Battlmechs that fill garrisons and mix into secondline (or for poor Clans, frontline) units get rid of the LRMs & SSRM/SRM.  The variable weapons range and damage allows the weapon itself adjust to needs based on the ammo load.

You see this in the IS with the MML Longbow & Yeoman designs- their overall throw weight for long ranges may have dropped, but they became a more versatile design that did not require nearby friends for protection.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

ATMs don't really add that much versatility, though.

[Kit deSummersville]

Until the rationale can be provided, it's functionally indistinguishable from arbitrary.

It's a make-believe game. Everything is arbitrary.