Help wanted putting together a 3025 FWLM vehicle company

[pupecki]

As the title says, I’m looking for some help putting together a 3025 FWLM vehicle company to support the company of mechs below. I’m not sure if I should bolster the frontline with some solid MBTs, or if I should focus more on the supporting roles with LRM Carriers/Schreks and strike hovers like harassers/saladins, ect. Or maybe both?

The final roster will also include a company of infantry as well, more likely than not mounted in heavy APCs.

Thanks for the help in advance! Here is the battlemech company in question:


BattleMech Battle Lance:
Awesome AWS-8Q
Orion ON1-K
Orion ON1-K
Hunchback HBK-4G

BattleMech Fire Support Lance:
Archer ARC-2R
Trebuchet TBT-5N
Trebuchet TBT-5N
Centurion CN9-A

BattleMech Skirmish Lance:
Guillotine GLT-4L
Quickdraw QKD-4G
Wolverine WVR-6M
Wolverine WVR-6M

[Firesprocket]

I think the amount of LRMs of the mech company are well represented, but the direct fire, outside of the Awesome is somewhat lacking outside of your battle lance.  I'd look at a couple Manticore and Zhukov for a little more punch.  Hezters and Saladin for some big gun pop.  Hunters for a little extra LRMs.

Lance 1
Manticore
Manticore
Zhukov
Demolisher

Lance 2

Saladin
Saladin
J. Edgar
J. Edgar

Lance 3

Hunter
Hunter
Hetzer
Hetzer

[Sartris]

the harasser is a very fwl hovertank. the standard runs x2 srm-6 and the lrm variant has an lrm-10. if you want to go big, the fusion ontos is a marik exclusive

i'd go for a mix

Assault Lance
Ontos (Fusion)
Ontos (Fusion)
Schrek
Schrek

Fire Support Lance
LRM Carrier
LRM Carrier
LRM Carrier
SRM Carrier

Pursuit Lance
Harasser
Harasser
Harasser
Harasser (LRM)

[pupecki]

How does something like this look?


Vehicle Support Lance:
Schrek PPC Carrier
Schrek PPC Carrier
Ontos Tank (Fusion)
Ontos Tank (Fusion)

Vehicle Battle Lance:
Manticore Heavy Tank
Manticore Heavy Tank
Manticore Heavy Tank
Manticore Heavy Tank

Vehicle Strike Lance:
Saladin Hover Tank (Armor)
Saladin Hover Tank (Armor)
Harasser Hover Tank
Harasser Hover Tank

[Mendrugo]

Keep in mind, FWLM vehicle companies are typically overstrength, with a flexible 4-6 vehicle platoon configuration giving each company 10-15 vehicles, on average.

You'll want vehicles that can complement your 'Mechs. 

One platoon of scouts/spotters would help direct LRM fire - thematically a mix of Harassers and Galleons would match the FWL TO&E.  Galleons are notably inferior to the Harasser, but can traverse terrain that hovers can't handle.  Three Harassers and two Galleons ought to do it.

Second platoon should increase the volume of LRM fire - three LRM Carriers and a couple of Ontoses to both add their own LRMs and to put the hurt on any enemy unit trying to overrun your LRM Carriers.  (Alternatively, putting Manticores in place of the LRM carriers makes them more durable - hurting your indirect fire capacity, but making the platoon far more robust overall.)

Third platoon should add to your direct fire capabilities - three Schreks paired with two Demolishers allows you to slam enemies from range and guard the PPC carriers from anyone trying to get inside their minimum range.  If you find the Demolishers too short ranged to effectively participate in a long-range slugging match, swap in Zhukovs, which get better range from their twin AC/10s.

[Lord greystroke]

+1 for Zhukovs those dual AC10s are very handy to have and punch great holes in 4th succession wars time

[Sartris]

zhukovs have an intro date of 3030. op said 3025 otherwise i would have included them... unless he means 3025 in the general sense before 3050.

regardless, zhukovs are good.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Saladins and Harassers (or, even better, Pegasus Missiles) are a great vehicle pairing.

Another go-to tank pairing for the Leaguers is the Ontos LRM and standard Ontos (or Ontos Fusion).  The Ontos LRM throws the same number of LRMs as the LRM Carrier but is much better armored, while the standard Ontos or Ontos Fusion are solid bodyguards.

[pupecki]

zhukovs have an intro date of 3030. op said 3025 otherwise i would have included them... unless he means 3025 in the general sense before 3050.

regardless, zhukovs are good.

I was speaking more in general “3025 intro tech”. So basically anything before the clans show up

[pupecki]

How about something like this, leveraging the increased size of the FLWM tank platoons? I tried to get a decent mix of fire support with some close range protection, a solid group on main line tanks, and a group of vees for harassment/infantry support.

I’m undecided if I should use the Manticores or if I should go with Zhukovs’. I’m not very well versed with either of these designs, nor on which would be more common to see in a FWLM formation.


Vehicle Support Lance:
Ontos Heavy Tank (Fusion)
Ontos Heavy Tank (Fusion)
LRM Carrier Carrier
LRM Carrier Carrier
LRM Carrier Carrier
LRM Carrier Carrier

Vehicle Battle Lance:
Manticore Heavy Tank
Manticore Heavy Tank
Manticore Heavy Tank
Manticore Heavy Tank
Manticore Heavy Tank
Manticore Heavy Tank

Vehicle Strike Lance:
Galleon Light Tank (GAL-100)
Galleon Light Tank (GAL-100)
Galleon Light Tank (GAL-100)
Galleon Light Tank (GAL-100)
Harasser Missile Platform
Harasser Missile Platform

[Sartris]

i've never been big on massed manticores in fwl formations as they isn't a documented in-house source for them. that said, they're really good.

[pupecki]

i've never been big on massed manticores in fwl formations as they isn't a documented in-house source for them. that said, they're really good.

I feel the same way, something about them just feels very un-FWL. But then the problem I run into is that lack of a real MBT for the FLWM. One option I have been toying around with is the Merkava MK. VIII, however I feel like they lack the direct concentrated punch that I would look for in a line unit.

[Sartris]

the dissonance with vees + mechs in the fwlm is that there is an emphasis on cav, but not good 5/8 and 4/6 tank options. unfortunately the capellans don't start exporting the Po until the invasion.

[pupecki]

A slightly related tangent, but what are y’alls opinions in switching out the Quickdraw 4G for a Centurion CN9-A in the fire support lance?

[Sartris]

any time a question starts with "should I remove the quickdraw..." i'm probably going to answer yes.

while the centurion is very davionista, it's on the IS general list for the era and in the hands of everyone from mercs to periphery militaries. you don't need it to go 5/8 and the CN9 is a better bodyguard for that unit imo

[Mendrugo]

The MUL gives the following for FWL vehicles with Late Succession Wars (LosTech) availability:

Ferret Light Scout VTOL (Armor) "Wild Weasel"      5   103   11   TR3039 RS3039u   Introductory      2967   
Ferret Light Scout VTOL (Standard)      5   58   8   TR3039 RS3039u   Introductory      2904   
Packrat LRPV PKR-T5 (ML)      20   501   19   TR3039 RS3039u   Introductory      2798   
Harasser Laser Platform (Standard)      25   321   16   TR3039 RS3039u   Introductory      2957   
Harasser Missile Platform (Flamer)      25   365   22   TR3039 RS3039u   Introductory      2851   
Harasser Missile Platform (LRM)      25   412   18   TR3039 RS3039u   Introductory      2821   
Harasser Missile Platform (Standard)      25   413   22   TR3039 RS3039u   Introductory      2811   
Ontos Heavy Tank (Fusion)      95   1,287   41   TR3039 RS3039u   Introductory      2863   
Ontos Heavy Tank (LRM)      95   1,164   33   TR3039 RS3039u   Introductory      2876   
Ontos Heavy Tank (Standard)      95   938   31   TR3039 RS3039u   Introductory      2832   
Şoarece Superheavy MBT (Standard)      175   2,285   66   XTRSW I XTRSW I   Experimental      2881

So, if you want to be a FWL purist (and they love them some LRMs):

Recon/Spotter Platoon:

6 Harasser (LRM)

Fire Support Platoon:

6 Ontos (LRM)

Direct Fire Platoon:

6 Ontos (Fusion)

Basically, your Harassers can fan out and spot the enemy, and any not relaying coordinates can join in the missile massacre.  The 'Mechs can hold the line against the enemy, and any lights that break through will be facing six Fusion Ontoses guarding the LRM batteries.  There's not a lot of variety here, but you'll be able to spend a lot of rounds pounding the enemy without them being able to effectively return fire.

(For weird fun, you can mix in a Soarece - pronounced "shwar-eh-chi" - as a pillbox for the LRM Ontoses to cluster around.)

[Natasha Kerensky]

But then the problem I run into is that lack of a real MBT for the FLWM. One option I have been toying around with is the Merkava MK. VIII, however I feel like they lack the direct concentrated punch that I would look for in a line unit.

There’s the Tiger and the Marsden II-A.  Both mount AC/10s and are widespread, appearing on the FWLM Star League MUL.  They disappear from the MULs in the Succession Wars, but they don’t use any LosTech.  There’s no reason some might not still be hanging around.

[Sartris]

strictly speaking, being listed as extinct is the reason for a unit not to be around - but their availability between 2900-3020 isn't determined yet so... party on?

the marsden is a 3/5 so you might as well go zhukov. x2 turret AC/10 is better than the front-mounted SRM-6s

the tiger is a fun little tank. i've run dozens of them in reunification war and star league opfor forces

[Natasha Kerensky]

strictly speaking, being listed as extinct is the reason for a unit not to be around - but their availability between 2900-3020 isn't determined yet so... party on?

Sarna says that the Tiger “remained in limited production far into the Succession Wars” and references Historical: Reunification War, p. 211-212.

No idea if that’s accurate, but if it is, I’d say that gives license for a lance of Tigers to appear anywhere they’re needed, even through the depths of the Succession Wars, regardless of what the MUL says.

Sarna says the Marsden II “continued to soldier on in planetary militias and private security forces into the Succession Wars, when the last remaining units were destroyed” and references the Marsden II fluff in TRO 3075.

Even if that is accurate, the case for the Marsden sounds iffier than the case for the Tiger, especially in regular, frontline forces.

the marsden is a 3/5 so you might as well go zhukov. x2 turret AC/10 is better than the front-mounted SRM-6s

Actually, the Marsden IIA gives up one SRM-6 to gain the AC/10.  So the Zhuk is clearly better offensively.  Where the Marsden IIA shines is in the armor, 17.5 tons vice the Zhuk’s 11 tons.

the tiger is a fun little tank. i've run dozens of them in reunification war and star league opfor forces

Due to the 4/6 speed, I’d probably go with the Tiger for the MBT role over the Zhuk or Marsden.  But be warned that its armor is on the thin side at 6 tons.  While the Manticore is the gold standard, I agree that it doesn’t feel right for PPCs to show up on tanks in a force that has PPC shortages like the FWL during the late Succession Wars.  (Same goes for Schrecks.)

Speaking of the Zhuk, another vehicle appearing in 3030 at the behest of Wolf’s Dragoon’s is the Plainsman.  It’s superior to the Harasser and does spread to the FWL.

[Sartris]

Yeah, both are ambiguous enough in their production / still around status to be used, though I associate the marsden more with the Lyrans

The one thing I noticed with the tiger is that even though the armor is thin, they get pillboxed faster than the armor gets breeched most of the time so their thin skin isn’t as much of an overall liability, especially pre- Invasion when weapons don’t hit as hard

[pupecki]

Speaking of the Zhuk, another vehicle appearing in 3030 at the behest of Wolf’s Dragoon’s is the Plainsman.  It’s superior to the Harasser and does spread to the FWL.

Looking at the Sarna page for the Plainsman I found this quote:

“However, its ability to run for 5,000+ hours with no more than a prayer of thanks for daily maintenance saved considerable man-hours and sweat for service techs across the Inner Sphere.”

Wonder if they snuck a little Warhammer 40K reference in there  ;D


Thinking about the MBT issue though, what are y’alls opinions on Bulldogs? Seems like a decent unit if a bit under armored.

Another idea I was kicking around was just foregoing a MBT all together and adding in some additional striker assets. Although that would put a lot more heavy lifting on the mech component of the force, which I’m not sure they would be able to hold the line well enough alone.

[Sartris]

You could either run another skirmisher/ striker element or mobile LRMs. While the ontos/LRM carrier combo is potent, being able to move a little better with something like a hunter is good too

[Natasha Kerensky]

Another idea I was kicking around was just foregoing a MBT all together and adding in some additional striker assets. Although that would put a lot more heavy lifting on the mech component of the force, which I’m not sure they would be able to hold the line well enough alone.

My take if I’m allowed to remake the mech company and be a munchy jerkwad:

Assault Lance
Awesome -8Q
Stalker -3F
Awesome -8Q
Stalker -3F

Heavy Lance
Orion -K (or Marauder -5M or Thug -11E or Black Knight -7-KNT/-KNT-L)
Guillotine -4L
Orion -K (or Marauder -5M or Thug -11E or Black Knight -7-KNT/-KNT-L)
Guillotine -4L

Medium Lance
Wolverine -6M
P-Hawk -1
Wolverine -6M
P-Hawk -1

Fire Lance
Ontos (LRM)
Ontos (LRM)
Ontos (LRM)
Ontos (Fusion or Standard)
Ontos (Fusion or Standard)
Ontos (Fusion or Standard)

Strike or Skirmish Lance
Saladin (Armor)
Saladin (Armor)
Saladin (Armor)
Pegasus (Missile) (or Harasser or Plainsman)
Pegasus (Missile) (or Harasser or Plainsman)
Pegasus (Missile) (or Harasser or Plainsman)

Recon or Scout or Spotter Lance
Warrior -7C
Warrior -7C
Karnov UR (Field Mod)
Karnov UR (Field Mod)
Ferret
Ferret

Because of their survivability, mechs are better than tanks in the MBT role.  The Manticore and Thunderbolt are both good “MBTs”, but the Thunderbolt won’t pillbox easily from motive hits, won’t die from losing just one section of internal structure (CT and head excepted, of course), and has much more forgiving critical hit tables.  So I stick to combat vehicle roles that keep them away from direct fire (indirect fire support and artillery), expose them to direct fire for only short periods of time (strike, skirmish, recon, scout, spotting), or do things that mechs simply can’t (APC/IFV, blue water, etc.).

On top of that, as this thread shows, there just aren’t a lot of good native FWL MBTs anyway.  So I gave that role to the mech company as a whole.  I replaced the Archer and Trebuchets with Ontos for fire support.  And I did away with the Hunchback and Spiders and went with Saladins and Pegasus/Harassers/Plainsmans for the close-range and mobile strike roles.  I also added a diverse VTOL lance for indirect fire spotting and fuzzier recon/scout duties (could also deliver infantry assets, too).  If VTOLs aren’t your thing, Galleons could also be used in the recon/spotter role.

I filled the resulting holes in the mech company with good MBT-ish direct fire and brawler designs that are built in the FWL, like the Stalker, the Marauder-M, the downgraded Guillotine, and the P-Hawk.  I also noted that the FWL makes downgraded versions of the Thug and Black Knight that are also good alternatives the Orion and Marauder -M.  (The FWL actually has an embarrassment of “MBT” mechs but almost no actual MBTs.).  Lastly, there are a few other slightly weaker native production FWL mechs that I might have used if I was not in all-out munch mode and that you could mix in for a more irregular Succession Wars feel:

Awesome -8T
Ostsol -4D
Hunchback -4H
Centurion -A
Hermes II -2S

It’s very munchy and too regularized for a true Succession Wars unit.  But it’s an example of how to use the FWL’s strengths while covering its weaknesses to create a killer unit.

Hope this helps.

[Lord greystroke]

bit of necromancy but does the FWL not have access to the classic Rommel and Patton or Von luckners ? as they would all have worked

[Sartris]

The Rommel/Pattons are fedcom. Von Luckners work but the speed can be a liability.

[kaliban]

It is all about the money and the function of the company.

If you can afford fusion-engine vehicles like Shreck and Manticore, you should certainly go for them. If your budget is short, Zhukov is a solid option. Hetzer and Po Is are also a common choice for short budgets.

About the function is something else. The big tanks are good as force multipliers but are too slow to flank or act as fast reinforcements. Hovercrafts like Harasser and Saladin does better in this function. For urban warfare, SRM carriers and Demolishers are useful.

If are open to non-canon designs. I have a plenty of them in my website:
http://ziprpg.tripod.com/btech/Mech_busters.pdf
in the end of the document I describe a vehicle combat unit of House Marik

[truetanker]

Sorry guys, I felt this needs to be addressed more.

BattleMech Battle Lance:
Awesome AWS-8Q Thug-10E
Orion ON1-K
Orion ON1-K
Hunchback HBK-4G

BattleMech Fire Support Lance:
Archer ARC-2R { I'd personally would upgrade this to the Steiner variant 2S, stating it was a captured unit.}
Quickdraw QKD-4G Centurion CN9-A
Trebuchet TBT-5N
Trebuchet TBT-5N

BattleMech Strike Lance:
Wolverine WVR-6M
Wolverine WVR-6M
Spider SDR-5V
Spider SDR-5V

Meaning this set up is a great way to hose your enemies with long range firepower. And now to the vehicles:

I personally run 2 Bulldogs with 2 Goblins and a LRM Goblin as my fifth tank in my Tank Lance. Not only does this allow me an integrated Infantry spotter unit, I can call upon 4 LLs and a pair of LRM-10's per turn. Along with enough MG and SRM-4 support!

Three Goblins are all that is needed to transport a full 3 ton Infantry unit! Now you may want more LRM, fine 3 LL's are still great. Nothing better to shine than three laser acting as spotlights under a LRM casted shade anyway...

2x Harasser~ 1x LRM-10
Harasser Medium Laser~ 2x ML
Harasser Mini-Peggy~ 2x SRM-4, Sensor
2x Galleon-200(RL)~ 2x MG, 2x RL-20, 4x RL-10

And I totally agree with Natasha here BUT I'd rather have more Dakka-dakka! :
Fire Lance
Ontos (Standard)
Ontos (LRM)
Partisan (Standard)
Partisan (LRM)
Schrek Autocannon~ 3x AC/5 and 8 MGs and a ton more armor!

TT