Do ProtoMechs Actually Save Resources?

[SCC]

OK, the officially stated reason for the creation of ProtoMechs is to save resources, to test this statement I decided to roll to the RAT for ProtoMechs and use the results as the basis for a 'Mech. My rolls where:Satyr, Roc, Roc, Hydra, and Harpy. And my resulting 'Mech weighed 25 tons, moved 5/8/5, has 3.5 tons of armor and is equipped with: Light Active Probe, 2x ER Medium Lased, SSRM4, ERSL, mPL, and a machine gun.

My conclusion: Well my 'Mech kind of sucks, dropping the ERSL and MG for 1.5 tons more armor would help. Secondly there might be something to this, as long as  you don't design your ProtoMechs to compete with BA, which it seems like just about all the designs I rolled do.

[Apocal]

OK, the officially stated reason for the creation of ProtoMechs is to save resources, to test this statement I decided to roll to the RAT for ProtoMechs and use the results as the basis for a 'Mech. My rolls where:Satyr, Roc, Roc, Hydra, and Harpy. And my resulting 'Mech weighed 25 tons, moved 5/8/5, has 3.5 tons of armor and is equipped with: Light Active Probe, 2x ER Medium Lased, SSRM4, ERSL, mPL, and a machine gun.

My conclusion: Well my 'Mech kind of sucks, dropping the ERSL and MG for 1.5 tons more armor would help. Secondly there might be something to this, as long as  you don't design your ProtoMechs to compete with BA, which it seems like just about all the designs I rolled do.

The Roc is, canonically, the most successful and widespread of the first generation ProtoMech for a reason. Five Rocs gets you a much better "mech" out of the deal, moving at a respectable 5/8/5 in most cases. You can't run down and deal with fast, jumpy snipers, but then again, you shouldn't be running a pure Roc protomech force to the exclusion of literally everything else (mechs, vees, etc).

[Col Toda]

They do recover resources . Human resources any warrior that does does really poorly in their trials of postion after their Clan spends 18+ years in iron woumbs and Sibcos shove failed mech pilots into protomechs .

Proto mechs have a niche in which they are very good at . Attrition wave in advance  of a star of mech which find the hidden battle armor : mechs and combat vehicles 2 turns before the Star engages . Another is to secure civilian infrastructure faster than the defenders could deploy to secure it . Their job is to die. So inner sphere forces do not drown there mechs in cheap combat vehicles and strategically win by doing better than 1 clan mech to 50 combat vehicles . Drowning in cheap combat vehicles was so successful that the Hells Horses combat vehicle clan was created as well as protomechs . Early in the Clan invasion the Clans had year plus logistical train any battle that was not won by shock and awe was lost to being bogged down do to attrition .

[Thunder]

If you're tracking Cbills,  I would expect an equal cost in protomechs to be able to take out an equal cost of Battlemech.

Problem is, battlemechs and mechwarriors tend to be reusable even when they lose.  A lost protomech needs to be replaced.

[Brakiel]

They do recover resources . Human resources any warrior that does does really poorly in their trials of postion after their Clan spends 18+ years in iron woumbs and Sibcos shove failed mech pilots into protomechs .

I thought proto pilots were of the aerospace genotype due to their small size letting them fit into proto’s tiny cockpit.

[Sartris]

They would but the flamboyant animal stylings jacked up the cost at least 70%

[Empyrus]

I thought proto pilots were of the aerospace genotype due to their small size letting them fit into proto’s tiny cockpit.

Yeah, and often they were washout pilots, so they were "wasted" anyhow.

[Colt Ward]

Protomechs save resources b/c instead of the isotope of Unobtainium the Jaguars were having problems sourcing, they were able to use the regular Unobtainium to build the fusion engines.

For your calculations on armor, its also harder to factor in the 3 & 11 auto-miss 'hits.'

[Fat Guy]

The Roc is, canonically, the most successful and widespread of the first generation ProtoMech for a reason.

And if you like the Roc, you'll love the Delphyne.  :thumbsup:

[beachhead1985]

There's a few weird parts in BT, where...basically you should be making things cheaper, but aren't.

One i found was trying to make dedicated tractors for gun trailers that could move at a fair clip...possible...but not cheap.

[dgorsman]

Maybe changing the thought process a bit?  In the Clan homeworlds there isn't a lot of large scale combat.  Destruction on that scale is considered wasteful and is avoided.  Losses are made up but rarely exceeded as excess production is also considered wasteful.  A trial with a Mech may end up with that Mech needing to be replaced but only a few ProtoMechs, rarely the entire point before defeat is admitted.

I would have to think it takes less material resources (not looking at currency units) to create the smaller reactors.  And fewer heat sinks required.  The factories themselves can be smaller as well, so there's some savings there.

[Crow]

Don't think of using Protomechs "instead of" Mechs but "in addition to" Mech forces. Protomechs were another way of increasing ground forces while not competing with the Mech factories for production resources. Consider the following:

-There was already a large existing pool of washed out warriors willing to die as Protomech warriors and are wasted otherwise
-There were already lots of ~40 rated fusion engines laying around in caches, or making them is pretty trivial and use different production facilities

Protomechs "save resources" by being a cheap combat unit made from readily available resources that were otherwise underused

[grimlock1]

Protos may be cheaper to produce, but the human side is not cost effective. 

I was going to talk about the short career of EI users but I can't find the rule for it. Dang. I seem to recall it being something like 3-5 years, including the year or so of rehab/recovery after implantation. So proto pilots have 2-4 years to master a machine they can't train on, get good, and pass on those skills. This lack of longevity will hamper the evolution of proto tactics, and to a lesser extent, strategy and doctrine.  This lack of institutional knowledge will in turn lead to higher loss rates, which means you need to build more protos.

But since I can't cite any sources, I may be talking out of my butt.

[Colt Ward]

Proto EI is different and they do not degrade the same way mech or ASF degrade . . . they have problems in regards to withdraw and megalomania (b/c of the Proto's power/size) and so their training has a emphasis on them bonding outside the Proto.  A point being considered a whole unit, which means 5 members, helps with this since it is different than the mechwarrior being a single point competing against other points.

Also, to operate protos you do not have to have EI per the Blood Spirit fiction where a mechwarrior sat in a proto to see what it was like for his new subordinates.  Those stories were interesting, but they are part of my locked away/lost BattleCorp stories CGL could never unlock for my past subscription.

[Maelwys]

Its not the ProtoMech that makes things different, its a side effect of the Aerospace (and presumably the protoMech phenotype, depending on the existence of such a thing).

Basically under the RPG rules, after a year of use, non-Aerospace phenotypes take a point of permanent fatigue, and have a chance to take points towards a negative trait. The Aerospace phenotype takes this damage every 3 years instead.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Protos may be cheaper to produce, but the human side is not cost effective.

Fortunately, the Clans have long viewed people as highly expendable so that's not a serious concern for them.

[Decoy]

Please remember that "Kill the meat, spare the metal" is a tagline for this game. It isn't a concern for anyone in the setting.

[grimlock1]

Its not the ProtoMech that makes things different, its a side effect of the Aerospace (and presumably the protoMech phenotype, depending on the existence of such a thing).

Basically under the RPG rules, after a year of use, non-Aerospace phenotypes take a point of permanent fatigue, and have a chance to take points towards a negative trait. The Aerospace phenotype takes this damage every 3 years instead.

I opened the ATOW and its Companion in Adobe, and did a search for "enhanced imag," and some how managed to miss that  :bang:

[glitterboy2098]

Also worth noting that 'fewer resources' runs into a fasanomics type detail level issue. We don't know what materials go into the various technologies, so we can't easily say whether protos use less of something or not. Which is likely more of the limitation anyway. The clans have barely touched some worlds in the homeworlds, best we can tell, in terms of infrastructure. But they don't seem inclined to develop things further. Which is probably the limiter. If for example DHS requires large amounts of a certain mineral, production rates of that mineral are a limit. If protomech heatsinks don't require as much of that mineral, or use some other mineral instead, that would certainly be an advantage. Though why you wouldn't develop mech scale versions is a valid question.

Ultimately i think that the resources arguement was something the jaguar scientists used to justify protos (which are ideal Society weapons) rather than a valid issue. The jaguars may well have lacked resources to expand and support their touman to hold their OZ.. But they also had basically stopped any infrastructure on the worlds in their OZ and let it decay. If they were really concerned with resources, they would have started rebuilding their OZ, the way all the others did (not all to the same degree or on the same schedule, certainly).

[Orin J.]

protomechs are a lot smaller, so their construction is probably a lot more space efficent. if you can get by on producing them with assembly lines a fraction of the scale needed for things like 'mechs and tanks you can probably save a lot of resources in terms of assembly by simply not having to construct a new 'mech-scale factory instead of building around smaller machines. battle'mech factories have always been kind of insanely scaled in the novels...

[Maingunnery]

Yep production efficiency gains can be quite large.

[Colt Ward]

Also worth noting that 'fewer resources' runs into a fasanomics type detail level issue. We don't know what materials go into the various technologies, so we can't easily say whether protos use less of something or not. Which is likely more of the limitation anyway.

Hence my Unobtainium bit from earlier.

Additionally, what phenotype would be worth less in being sent to other castes?  Pilot phenotype is not going to do well as laborer- except maybe zero/micro-g construction- and its not like the command economy of the Clans is going to have a booming airline industry for tourism . . . or scientists or merchants who will have a private jet or VTOL on call.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Also worth noting that 'fewer resources' runs into a fasanomics type detail level issue. We don't know what materials go into the various technologies, so we can't easily say whether protos use less of something or not. Which is likely more of the limitation anyway. The clans have barely touched some worlds in the homeworlds, best we can tell, in terms of infrastructure. But they don't seem inclined to develop things further. Which is probably the limiter.

The Wars of Reaving explained that a little: since another Clan can always come in and issue a Trial of Possession for any new facility you build, everyone got left with no incentive to try developing any new manufacturing lines or colonies because someone else would just come along and take it.

[dgorsman]

There's a large merchant caste DropShip fleet, which I suspect where most washed out pilots end up.

From what I've seen the upper command ranks of the Jaguars were an extreme version of the "Take it, don't make it" ideology.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There's a large merchant caste DropShip fleet, which I suspect where most washed out pilots end up.

From what I've seen the upper command ranks of the Jaguars were an extreme version of the "Take it, don't make it" ideology.

They were by far the worst, but most Clans felt little incentive to invest in new resource production.  It's why the Blood Spirits made such an effort to hide their secret colony, they didn't want anyone coming along and taking it after they'd done the hard work of starting it.

[grimlock1]

Hence my Unobtainium bit from earlier.

Additionally, what phenotype would be worth less in being sent to other castes?  Pilot phenotype is not going to do well as laborer- except maybe zero/micro-g construction- and its not like the command economy of the Clans is going to have a booming airline industry for tourism . . . or scientists or merchants who will have a private jet or VTOL on call.

If you look at the source material, aero pilots are actually not that small.  They average 5'6" and 100 lbs. Also "laborer" is a very broad category, encompassing more than longshoremen. The weight is a function of diet and training regimen.  I've known female body builders who are 5'3" and 180 lbs.

That little tidbit kinda blows a hole in the idea that proto cockpits were too small for anyone but Pilots.  I'd wager than 70% of any Olympic women's gymnastic team would call a proto cockpit downright roomy.

[Empyrus]

Ah but the proto pilots have to curl up into a ball more or less. Perhaps aero pilots are far more flexible than an average human?

[Colt Ward]

That little tidbit kinda blows a hole in the idea that proto cockpits were too small for anyone but Pilots.  I'd wager than 70% of any Olympic women's gymnastic team would call a proto cockpit downright roomy.

Which is why I said we had the Blood Spirit story where a Mechwarrior entered a subordinate's Proto to understand the ones assigned to his trinary.  Caden something or other, Spirit ristar and early bloodname holder.

[Orin J.]

Ah but the proto pilots have to curl up into a ball more or less. Perhaps aero pilots are far more flexible than an average human?

pretty much anyone can do that, that's just the fetal position. more likely it's that their areo phenotype is just much smaller mass-wise which means they fold up much smaller.

[Apocal]

If you look at the source material, aero pilots are actually not that small.  They average 5'6" and 100 lbs.

In the story Trial of Possession, the protagonist thought an aerospace pilot who was 1.7m (roughly 5'8?) was "freakish" in height.